Can I still go to Grad School?
November 14, 2006 2:47 PM Subscribe
Can I still go to Grad School? Will a second undergrad degree help?
I graduated from a large state university in May 2005 with a degree in Broadcast Journalism and a minor in History. I left with a 3.4 GPA. I coasted through college the first time around and have been spinning my wheels in the year and a half since I finished school. I'd like to go to graduate school and study history. To that end, I'd like to return to my old school and get a second degree in History. I've done a bit of research and it doesn't seem like it should be that hard. I could be back in by the summer and I should already have a good deal of the classes I need. I hope so anyways. Assuming of course that I do well when I return to school, I'm curious about my prospects for getting into decent, good, and great programs after my less than stellar performace the first time through and the wasted time that followed.
I graduated from a large state university in May 2005 with a degree in Broadcast Journalism and a minor in History. I left with a 3.4 GPA. I coasted through college the first time around and have been spinning my wheels in the year and a half since I finished school. I'd like to go to graduate school and study history. To that end, I'd like to return to my old school and get a second degree in History. I've done a bit of research and it doesn't seem like it should be that hard. I could be back in by the summer and I should already have a good deal of the classes I need. I hope so anyways. Assuming of course that I do well when I return to school, I'm curious about my prospects for getting into decent, good, and great programs after my less than stellar performace the first time through and the wasted time that followed.
Have you considered just trying to get into grad school with the background you already have? Working in academia for many years I've seen that the best way to get into the graduate program you desire is to really make a connection with the person(s) you like to have as your graduate advisor. Getting into graduate school is frequently less about the numbers GPA, GRE, etc. (although funding will be all about the numbers) and more about finding someone willing to take you on. Even if your undergraduate coursework is missing some key classes often these can be taken during your first year of grad school.
Note - there is no such thing as wasted time off between undergrad and graduate school - you just need to know how to spin it in your favor.
posted by rosebengal at 3:09 PM on November 14, 2006
Note - there is no such thing as wasted time off between undergrad and graduate school - you just need to know how to spin it in your favor.
posted by rosebengal at 3:09 PM on November 14, 2006
i don't know how it is in the humanities, but in the sciences people get graduate degrees in different fields from their undergraduate work all the time.
i suppose the extent to which you'll be able to do this depends on how, in your application, you can relate your undergrad work to your proposed graduate study. so you might not have to go back at all.
(i don't feel this way, but i can imagine that to some people a second degree might be seen almost as a liability; i.e. a sign of slackerdom or fear of change or some kind of unwillingness to move forward. you might ask around to some of your history professors from before and see how they feel about it. it is generally a committee of faculty that make the admissions decisions, so history profs would be the right people to ask.)
also, a 3.4 is less than stellar, but not really bad either. you won't get into a top-flight program with those grades unless you pull off something spectacular. a good program is possible but you'll have to really line up good references, have high test scores, and have an otherwise outstanding application. a decent program should be no problem.
assuming you took 4 years, a 3.4 GPA corresponds to roughly 3.4 * ~120 credits = 408 grade points. another year (30 credits) worth of straight A's will net you 528 grade points, giving you a new GPA of 528/150 = 3.52 GPA. two years of straight A's is 648/180 = 3.6 GPA. so your returns are seriously diminishing at this point, and if you ask me 2 years is a long time to spend for a measly 0.2 boost (at most) to your GPA. ymmv.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 3:09 PM on November 14, 2006
i suppose the extent to which you'll be able to do this depends on how, in your application, you can relate your undergrad work to your proposed graduate study. so you might not have to go back at all.
(i don't feel this way, but i can imagine that to some people a second degree might be seen almost as a liability; i.e. a sign of slackerdom or fear of change or some kind of unwillingness to move forward. you might ask around to some of your history professors from before and see how they feel about it. it is generally a committee of faculty that make the admissions decisions, so history profs would be the right people to ask.)
also, a 3.4 is less than stellar, but not really bad either. you won't get into a top-flight program with those grades unless you pull off something spectacular. a good program is possible but you'll have to really line up good references, have high test scores, and have an otherwise outstanding application. a decent program should be no problem.
assuming you took 4 years, a 3.4 GPA corresponds to roughly 3.4 * ~120 credits = 408 grade points. another year (30 credits) worth of straight A's will net you 528 grade points, giving you a new GPA of 528/150 = 3.52 GPA. two years of straight A's is 648/180 = 3.6 GPA. so your returns are seriously diminishing at this point, and if you ask me 2 years is a long time to spend for a measly 0.2 boost (at most) to your GPA. ymmv.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 3:09 PM on November 14, 2006
whoa, you did a BA in broadcast journalism? I am a broadcast journalist, and I urge people never to do this. However, going to grad school less than a year after graduation is hardly the answer. Can't you go back and earn the BA in history from your same school? I would say, just for the purpose of time, that you'd get more done in a short amount of time getting a BA than you would focusing on something in an MA program.
Plus, if you went to a school for your second BA that had a good TV/radio program, you could probably pick up a TA job or even do some work at their local NPR or commercial station (which is what I did). I regret not getting the BA in management I came very close to after I got my publishing business degree. Don't make the same mistake.
But keep up with broadcasting, especially if you're good at it!
posted by parmanparman at 3:10 PM on November 14, 2006
Plus, if you went to a school for your second BA that had a good TV/radio program, you could probably pick up a TA job or even do some work at their local NPR or commercial station (which is what I did). I regret not getting the BA in management I came very close to after I got my publishing business degree. Don't make the same mistake.
But keep up with broadcasting, especially if you're good at it!
posted by parmanparman at 3:10 PM on November 14, 2006
Don't, don't, don't enter grad school in the humanities if the only reason you're going is that the real world is hard and lonely and intellectually less stimulating than school, school seems safe and you can't think of what else to do. Reflect honestly on what your reasons are for wanting to go. See if your desires (about where you want to be in 10 years) can be met without grad school, and make a plan for yourself of how to meet them.
You can get into humanities grad programs with a BA in a different subject. Usually getting into a good program would require that you have a good undergrad track record and excellent GREs and a great writing sample in the field you'll be applying in. If you don't have these things, and would end up in a second-rate or worse school, then realistically you have little chance of ending up as a professor. Also, the lower-quality the school, the less funding will be available.
Never, never go into debt to finance an advanced degree in the humanities unless you have a firm plan of how you will pay the money back -- the jobs that you get with humanities degrees are just not lucrative enough to justify taking out loans to pay for the degree. (This would be a reason against trying to get a second BA.) Good programs will pay your way and usually a small stipend too. There are some jobs outside academia that use an advanced degree in history (eg museums, archives) -- do you want one of those jobs? How good is the job market for the position you want, and how good are the salaries? Do your homework. What do you want to study in history? Talk to profs at programs that are good in your area. Talk to your undergrad profs.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:30 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
You can get into humanities grad programs with a BA in a different subject. Usually getting into a good program would require that you have a good undergrad track record and excellent GREs and a great writing sample in the field you'll be applying in. If you don't have these things, and would end up in a second-rate or worse school, then realistically you have little chance of ending up as a professor. Also, the lower-quality the school, the less funding will be available.
Never, never go into debt to finance an advanced degree in the humanities unless you have a firm plan of how you will pay the money back -- the jobs that you get with humanities degrees are just not lucrative enough to justify taking out loans to pay for the degree. (This would be a reason against trying to get a second BA.) Good programs will pay your way and usually a small stipend too. There are some jobs outside academia that use an advanced degree in history (eg museums, archives) -- do you want one of those jobs? How good is the job market for the position you want, and how good are the salaries? Do your homework. What do you want to study in history? Talk to profs at programs that are good in your area. Talk to your undergrad profs.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:30 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
(The above is my all-purpose warning to people who say "I got out of school about a year ago, and I wish I had used the time better. I'd like to go to grad school in the humanities." You may have much better thought-out reasons than this; I can't tell from what you've said.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:33 PM on November 14, 2006
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:33 PM on November 14, 2006
Don't, don't, don't enter grad school in the humanities if the only reason you're going is that the real world is hard and lonely and intellectually less stimulating than school, school seems safe and you can't think of what else to do. Reflect honestly on what your reasons are for wanting to go. See if your desires (about where you want to be in 10 years) can be met without grad school, and make a plan for yourself of how to meet them.
LobsterMitten could be talking about me, and hitting it right on the button, to boot. I did a M.A. in Philosophy at a non-prestigious grad school after a 2-year break from graduating undergrad in Political Theory, and the whole time I was there, I hated it. I was just in school because being in school was all I knew how to do - I didn't have the careerist aspirations needed to succeed. If I were going to do it over, I would get a day job at a university and use my tuition benefit to take classes in things that interested me. Also, 10 years later, I'm still paying off the student loans.
posted by matildaben at 4:02 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
LobsterMitten could be talking about me, and hitting it right on the button, to boot. I did a M.A. in Philosophy at a non-prestigious grad school after a 2-year break from graduating undergrad in Political Theory, and the whole time I was there, I hated it. I was just in school because being in school was all I knew how to do - I didn't have the careerist aspirations needed to succeed. If I were going to do it over, I would get a day job at a university and use my tuition benefit to take classes in things that interested me. Also, 10 years later, I'm still paying off the student loans.
posted by matildaben at 4:02 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Do not do this. I did. There are NO JOBS in history. Of course , if you are massively rich, ignore this advice. To get a history job you will have to be at a top 5 school. Think you can get into Yale? Do it. Otherwise, don't waste your money.
posted by Ironmouth at 4:07 PM on November 14, 2006
posted by Ironmouth at 4:07 PM on November 14, 2006
Yes, you can expect to get into some programs. An additional BA will help you at some programs, be no help at others, and be worse than just applying now at others.
The real question is whether you really want to. I assume you're talking about getting a PhD. Getting an MA in the humanities or social sciences is not a directly useful thing to do -- it's fine as a gateway into better PhD programs, and it's fine as a professional qualification if your job will pay you more if you get any MA, but there are very few doors that having an MA in history will open for you.
The best way to figure out whether you want to go to grad school is to talk to real live professors in that subject. You will find, first and foremost, that it's not nearly as romantic and exciting as you think it is. For every fun hour in front of students, there are more hours grading awful papers and trudging through all manner of boring committees. Likewise, research isn't a matter of reading exciting stuff and having EUREKA! moments while you sip a cappucino; it's long-term, slow-payoff, plain old work.
Do not consider programs that are decent or merely good. You want to get into an excellent (say top 25 or so) program, or you don't want to go. Unless you know that you want to teach in a small local college, going through a subpar PhD program is just an exercise in wasting money and building frustration.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:10 PM on November 14, 2006
The real question is whether you really want to. I assume you're talking about getting a PhD. Getting an MA in the humanities or social sciences is not a directly useful thing to do -- it's fine as a gateway into better PhD programs, and it's fine as a professional qualification if your job will pay you more if you get any MA, but there are very few doors that having an MA in history will open for you.
The best way to figure out whether you want to go to grad school is to talk to real live professors in that subject. You will find, first and foremost, that it's not nearly as romantic and exciting as you think it is. For every fun hour in front of students, there are more hours grading awful papers and trudging through all manner of boring committees. Likewise, research isn't a matter of reading exciting stuff and having EUREKA! moments while you sip a cappucino; it's long-term, slow-payoff, plain old work.
Do not consider programs that are decent or merely good. You want to get into an excellent (say top 25 or so) program, or you don't want to go. Unless you know that you want to teach in a small local college, going through a subpar PhD program is just an exercise in wasting money and building frustration.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:10 PM on November 14, 2006
I did exactly what you are thinking about doing. I coasted through undergrad with the same GPA (if not lower). What I realized was that I was one of those kids who never should have gone directly to college, and should have taken a couple of years off and not wasted all that time and cash.
About 2 years after undergrad, I wanted--actually felt driven-- to get an MA in anthropology. I got the MA, and started the PhD but realized that for what I wanted to do, I was able to do with the MA and didn't need the PhD.
I got a 4.0 throughout the MA, I think because I really knew what I wanted to do. So you will definitely be able to do better, it may have just taken you time to figure out what you wanted to do.
posted by lil' ears at 5:24 PM on November 14, 2006
About 2 years after undergrad, I wanted--actually felt driven-- to get an MA in anthropology. I got the MA, and started the PhD but realized that for what I wanted to do, I was able to do with the MA and didn't need the PhD.
I got a 4.0 throughout the MA, I think because I really knew what I wanted to do. So you will definitely be able to do better, it may have just taken you time to figure out what you wanted to do.
posted by lil' ears at 5:24 PM on November 14, 2006
My brother was in a similar position and ended up getting his MA in business anyways. He pretty much hated his job prospects so he joined the Air Force as a first lieutenant. He's in a great program and stands to make a lot of money when he goes civillian. He's also being taken care of extremely well. Obviously this is not an option for everybody. (I swear I'm not a recruiter.)
Sorry to hijack your thread, but I'm in your position as well. (The armed forces aren't an option I'm willing to consider.) I did undergrad in history and anthropology. I woudn't give away what I learned for the world, but would like to make some money.
How difficult is it to make the switch to a technical field, let's say something in petroleum engineering. Are there grad programs for liberal arts undergrads who now want to actually have a job that pays money? How do you go about doing that?
posted by Telf at 6:52 PM on November 14, 2006
Sorry to hijack your thread, but I'm in your position as well. (The armed forces aren't an option I'm willing to consider.) I did undergrad in history and anthropology. I woudn't give away what I learned for the world, but would like to make some money.
How difficult is it to make the switch to a technical field, let's say something in petroleum engineering. Are there grad programs for liberal arts undergrads who now want to actually have a job that pays money? How do you go about doing that?
posted by Telf at 6:52 PM on November 14, 2006
Unless you intend to study US history exclusively, you should have a competency in at least one foreign language relevant to your focus. If you are interested in studying, for example, the classical world, Greek or Latin is a must, and some knowledge of French or German would be good as well.
Your 3.4 GPA won't prevent you from getting into a decent program, though you will likely need strong GRE scores and good letters of recommendation to supplement it (I had a GPA not much higher due to a severe case of apathy my freshman year, and I am in grad school). Do you still have any friends at your alma mater who could help you out in this last respect? Your letters don’t have to be from historians, but you do need to be sure that the person writing the letter is willing to give you more than tepid support.
Don't go anywhere that doesn't offer you a tuition waver and a stipend of some sort. Don't pay for grad school. As I recall, the assistanceships and fellowships for history programs are a bit harder to come by than in other areas. But the people who have commented on the paucity of jobs in the humanities are spot-on. There is no need to incur huge amounts of debt for an advanced degree in the humanities unless you are going to be able to be highly competitive on the job market down the road.
posted by Tullius at 7:55 PM on November 14, 2006
Your 3.4 GPA won't prevent you from getting into a decent program, though you will likely need strong GRE scores and good letters of recommendation to supplement it (I had a GPA not much higher due to a severe case of apathy my freshman year, and I am in grad school). Do you still have any friends at your alma mater who could help you out in this last respect? Your letters don’t have to be from historians, but you do need to be sure that the person writing the letter is willing to give you more than tepid support.
Don't go anywhere that doesn't offer you a tuition waver and a stipend of some sort. Don't pay for grad school. As I recall, the assistanceships and fellowships for history programs are a bit harder to come by than in other areas. But the people who have commented on the paucity of jobs in the humanities are spot-on. There is no need to incur huge amounts of debt for an advanced degree in the humanities unless you are going to be able to be highly competitive on the job market down the road.
posted by Tullius at 7:55 PM on November 14, 2006
Response by poster: Thank you for the responses. You've all given me quite a bit to think about. I never cared for the Broadcast Journalism degree much and often thought about turning the history minor into a second degree while I was in school. Since I graduated I've worked part time at a public radio station and also have spent some time at a small video production company. I know this isn't what I want to do.
What do I want to do? I've always been fascinated by cities and their history. I'm a true believer in the value of walkable cities, public transit, rehabilition of old buildings, public spaces and a move back towards traditional neighborhoods. I love 'living' history, pieces of the past that I can touch and hold. I'd love to be able to help rebuild New Orleans, advocate for new urbanism, work at a historic site like Jamestown, restore an old house, or give tours at an old fort though I don't know if that last one, or any of them really, pays the bills. I'm thinking that Historic Preservation could be a very good fit for me. It looks like Georgia is actually a pretty hot spot for Historic Preservation with three Graduate programs in the state, including the school I got my BA from (Univ of Georgia) and Savannah College of Art of Design. Studying historic preservation in Savannah must be very interesting and hands on. Also, the Georgia Trust for Historic Preservation is the largest organization of its kind in the US. So, it seems like there are opportunities here. Or at least more than just a history degree would offer.
Anyways, I'm just thinking out loud now. Thanks again for helping me think this out. I guess I need to see what the admissions officers and professors think of all this.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 8:39 PM on November 14, 2006
What do I want to do? I've always been fascinated by cities and their history. I'm a true believer in the value of walkable cities, public transit, rehabilition of old buildings, public spaces and a move back towards traditional neighborhoods. I love 'living' history, pieces of the past that I can touch and hold. I'd love to be able to help rebuild New Orleans, advocate for new urbanism, work at a historic site like Jamestown, restore an old house, or give tours at an old fort though I don't know if that last one, or any of them really, pays the bills. I'm thinking that Historic Preservation could be a very good fit for me. It looks like Georgia is actually a pretty hot spot for Historic Preservation with three Graduate programs in the state, including the school I got my BA from (Univ of Georgia) and Savannah College of Art of Design. Studying historic preservation in Savannah must be very interesting and hands on. Also, the Georgia Trust for Historic Preservation is the largest organization of its kind in the US. So, it seems like there are opportunities here. Or at least more than just a history degree would offer.
Anyways, I'm just thinking out loud now. Thanks again for helping me think this out. I guess I need to see what the admissions officers and professors think of all this.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 8:39 PM on November 14, 2006
work at a historic site like Jamestown, restore an old house, or give tours at an old fort though I don't know if that last one, or any of them really, pays the bills
Well, I can tell you that back in 1993 I only made minimum wage working as a costumed interpretor at Old Sturbridge Village. This was with a History B.A. from a baby Ivy, but I had co-workers with M.A.'s and Yale degrees who were not making much more than me. I loved the job at the time, but it was the nail in the coffin of my ill-thought out history career.
Good luck with your choice. Personally, I changed history to a hobby and now I'm an accountant.
posted by saffry at 9:34 PM on November 14, 2006
Well, I can tell you that back in 1993 I only made minimum wage working as a costumed interpretor at Old Sturbridge Village. This was with a History B.A. from a baby Ivy, but I had co-workers with M.A.'s and Yale degrees who were not making much more than me. I loved the job at the time, but it was the nail in the coffin of my ill-thought out history career.
Good luck with your choice. Personally, I changed history to a hobby and now I'm an accountant.
posted by saffry at 9:34 PM on November 14, 2006
Call up, or email, someone at the places you think you might like to work. Call up a preservation organization and explain to them where you're at. Ask if you can arrange to meet with someone for 1/2 hour some day, if you can buy them a cup of coffee in exchange for some career talk. They know where there are jobs, and what kinds of qualifications you need for those jobs.
The rest of what you describe sounds like a degree in City Planning (that link explains what the job is like and what the prospects are). Here's a guide to graduate programs in city and regional planning. These degrees are more focused on practical skills that cities are willing to pay for, rather than a history degree which emphasizes knowledge of history and research skills.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:53 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
The rest of what you describe sounds like a degree in City Planning (that link explains what the job is like and what the prospects are). Here's a guide to graduate programs in city and regional planning. These degrees are more focused on practical skills that cities are willing to pay for, rather than a history degree which emphasizes knowledge of history and research skills.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:53 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
You could also work toward being a PR or outreach person for historic groups (this would be a natural fit for your existing qualifications). Another route would be in "development" work, that is, the fundraising arm of nonprofit organizations. There is a lot of need for this, and if you're an enthusiastic people-person type, you might be well suited for it.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:57 PM on November 14, 2006
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:57 PM on November 14, 2006
You can probably get a lot of work experience without the MA, and your description of your interest in cities, especially walkable cities, makes me think an MA in Urban Planning would be a better choice for you. You may even be able to get an MA in Urban Planning with a focus on Historical Restoration. And I'm pretty sure that there are more jobs out there for Urban Planners than there are for History majors (although I know very little about the field).
I would recommend that if you really do want to help rebuild New Orleans, you go and do that now while it still desperately needs people. In a few years, they may get to the point where they'll only take proven people with a long track record, but I'm guessing now they'd still accept individuals with less experience, and take on people who just want to get their hands dirty. Once you've finished two years of an MA, you won't be better suited to doing the work, you'll just be more able to write a paper about it. Don't get me wrong, academia has its place, but I fail to see how an MA in History will actually help you here.
Probably the best thing to do would be to get yourself involved in a non-profit involved in this work, do extensive work, and then start on a specialized MA that uses the activity of the non-profit as a case study for your thesis.
posted by Deathalicious at 12:29 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
I would recommend that if you really do want to help rebuild New Orleans, you go and do that now while it still desperately needs people. In a few years, they may get to the point where they'll only take proven people with a long track record, but I'm guessing now they'd still accept individuals with less experience, and take on people who just want to get their hands dirty. Once you've finished two years of an MA, you won't be better suited to doing the work, you'll just be more able to write a paper about it. Don't get me wrong, academia has its place, but I fail to see how an MA in History will actually help you here.
Probably the best thing to do would be to get yourself involved in a non-profit involved in this work, do extensive work, and then start on a specialized MA that uses the activity of the non-profit as a case study for your thesis.
posted by Deathalicious at 12:29 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
You need to so some backwards research first. Where do you want to be in 25 years, or ten years? Which grad school programs will prepare you for that job? Once you know that, then look at their pre-req's and see how your GPA and current diploma stack up.
Before spending more time and money on additional coursework, maybe you can apply for a few programs. Perhaps you can get in on a provisional basis and will only need to take a few extra history courses.
posted by saffry at 3:07 PM on November 14, 2006