Sorry, babe, but you're a lousy drunk.
August 19, 2006 11:47 AM Subscribe
So, I've recently realized that my boyfriend's habit of going out and getting gross-sloppy drunk isn't just because he can be an ass sometimes, but because he has one of them, you know, addiction thingies. How can I help?
I've talked with him about this, and we both agree that it's something he needs to work on because neither of us want him to turn in grouchy loser old man alcoholic.
The problem for me is that I'm totally in over my head on this one, and I have no idea how to help him. No one in my family drinks more than a glass of wine every few months or so, and I have the least addictive personality ever, so it's really hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that he can't just... you know, stop. It just seems so weak and silly and self-indulgent, and I don't know how to help beyond wanting to yell at him to JUST STOP ALREADY PLZXTHX!, which probably won't be too helpful.
So, my questions are:
1. We haven't yet worked out whether he wants to cut alcohol out entirely or just learn to control his drinking (i.e. you can go out and have fun without ending the night passed out in your own vomit!). Anyone have advice on what would work best? I drink maybe a few times a month, but I wouldn't mind stopping either.
2. What kind of things can/should I do to support him? I think a lot of his binge drinking has to do with self-esteem/stress issues. How can I help with that?
3. His friends do almost nothing but get wasted and hanging around them sober isn't tolerated, so I'm afraid this will be cutting him off from everyone else. I'm admittedly not too fond of his friends, but I don't want his social circle to consist solely of me. How can I keep us from turning into a scary little insular world of two?
4. How should I react if (when?) he messes up? What if he wants a third beer with dinner (no big deal, right? But then it leads to fourth, and a fifth...)? What if I get a call at three in morning because he ran into some friends after work and decided to go get shit-faced? I think it'll be really hard for me not to take it personally (You promised me you wouldn't get drunk, and then you got drunk... therefore: you don't care about me and you don't love me and you're an asshat).
5. Grr! What else is there to do on a Saturday night?
Oh, and some background, if it'll help: I'm 24, he's 28. We've been together 2 years, and it's mostly a pretty awesome relationship. At the beginning, we drank a lot, but I've kinda been over that for a while now. He really wants to get over this too, so it's not just something I'm pushing him into. I don't mind the drinking so much now, but when I'm ready for the whole family-kids-white-picket-fence thing (which we're already kinda talking about), I think this will be a dealbreaker. email at lousy.drunk@gmail.com .
I've talked with him about this, and we both agree that it's something he needs to work on because neither of us want him to turn in grouchy loser old man alcoholic.
The problem for me is that I'm totally in over my head on this one, and I have no idea how to help him. No one in my family drinks more than a glass of wine every few months or so, and I have the least addictive personality ever, so it's really hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that he can't just... you know, stop. It just seems so weak and silly and self-indulgent, and I don't know how to help beyond wanting to yell at him to JUST STOP ALREADY PLZXTHX!, which probably won't be too helpful.
So, my questions are:
1. We haven't yet worked out whether he wants to cut alcohol out entirely or just learn to control his drinking (i.e. you can go out and have fun without ending the night passed out in your own vomit!). Anyone have advice on what would work best? I drink maybe a few times a month, but I wouldn't mind stopping either.
2. What kind of things can/should I do to support him? I think a lot of his binge drinking has to do with self-esteem/stress issues. How can I help with that?
3. His friends do almost nothing but get wasted and hanging around them sober isn't tolerated, so I'm afraid this will be cutting him off from everyone else. I'm admittedly not too fond of his friends, but I don't want his social circle to consist solely of me. How can I keep us from turning into a scary little insular world of two?
4. How should I react if (when?) he messes up? What if he wants a third beer with dinner (no big deal, right? But then it leads to fourth, and a fifth...)? What if I get a call at three in morning because he ran into some friends after work and decided to go get shit-faced? I think it'll be really hard for me not to take it personally (You promised me you wouldn't get drunk, and then you got drunk... therefore: you don't care about me and you don't love me and you're an asshat).
5. Grr! What else is there to do on a Saturday night?
Oh, and some background, if it'll help: I'm 24, he's 28. We've been together 2 years, and it's mostly a pretty awesome relationship. At the beginning, we drank a lot, but I've kinda been over that for a while now. He really wants to get over this too, so it's not just something I'm pushing him into. I don't mind the drinking so much now, but when I'm ready for the whole family-kids-white-picket-fence thing (which we're already kinda talking about), I think this will be a dealbreaker. email at lousy.drunk@gmail.com .
Unfortunately, the sad answer to your question is that you can't do anything at all. It's entirely his problem and he's the only one who can do something about it.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:38 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:38 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
AA isn't the only way (particularly if you're not a theist), but they're right about one thing: you can't choose to "control your drinking". It's all or nothing.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:42 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:42 PM on August 19, 2006
FYI- there is nothing you can do but be supportive. It is entirely up to him to make the decision to quit. I know several alcoholics. If he is addicted to alcohol this is going to be very difficult. Him having just one or two probably isn't a real option. It's a matter of all or none. AA is the way to go and as far as I know, the only thing that works. There is Al Anon for families and friends of alcoholics. You should check out those meetings. You could gain a lot of insight into what this is like for him, seeing as you are not much of an addictive personality and don't quite understand it. I wish you luck. It's a painful thing to watch someone you love ruin themselves this way. Learn as much as you can and be as supportive as you can. Don't point fingers. The rest is up to him.
posted by smeater44 at 12:44 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by smeater44 at 12:44 PM on August 19, 2006
Alcoholics Anonymous is a religious cult, and according to this, it has no greater efficacy than quitting drinking without AA. And unless your boyfriend is already religious, he might actually find their meetings creepy and insulting.
But what Den Beste said. You can't really help.
posted by interrobang at 12:52 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
But what Den Beste said. You can't really help.
posted by interrobang at 12:52 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
I second AA*; if he wants you to go to meetings with him for a while, do so (I found it very educational), but obviously everything has to be his decision. It's good that he recognizes the problem and wants to do something about it, and it's good that you want to help without making things worse. Just keep telling yourself that it's not about you, he's the only one who can do this—and good luck to both of you!
*Note on the "theist" problem: I've had several friends and/or lovers go into AA, and all of them were stone atheists. If the first meeting he goes to is too goddish, he should try another; the main thing is to find a sponsor who will tell him, as my friend's sponsor did, "Don't like the god shit? Ignore it!" The "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, or nothing; the important point is accepting that you don't have control over it.
posted by languagehat at 12:56 PM on August 19, 2006
*Note on the "theist" problem: I've had several friends and/or lovers go into AA, and all of them were stone atheists. If the first meeting he goes to is too goddish, he should try another; the main thing is to find a sponsor who will tell him, as my friend's sponsor did, "Don't like the god shit? Ignore it!" The "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, or nothing; the important point is accepting that you don't have control over it.
posted by languagehat at 12:56 PM on August 19, 2006
On non-preview: Yeah, you'll run into AA-haters. Ignore them. If your boyfriend goes to the meetings and decides they're not for him, that's his decision, but they've helped a lot of people, including (as I said before) a lot of nonreligious people. It is not a "religious cult." It's a bunch of drunks trying to help other drunks.
posted by languagehat at 12:58 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by languagehat at 12:58 PM on August 19, 2006
Ha! Two for two on the shitty advice!
Ok. My best friend is (or rather just was, but left the job a week ago) a drug and alcohol counsellor for about four years. I am not. Take my advice with, y'know, some salt around the rim.
1) Totally an individual thing. Some people who are binge drinkers can learn to dial it back by holding themselves to a certain number of drinks per night, some folks can't. Some can have just one drink with meals and thus get over binging. Some can't. I would try to scale it back first. Have him think aobut how many drinks it takes to get a decent buzz on. I mean, not drunk, but warmed. For my weight and metabolism, that ends up being about three or four drinks in an evening. For him, it might be less. I doubt it's more, but if it is he might want to give up drinking for a week or two so his tolerance can fall back down a bit. You can also agree to go cold turkey for a couple of weeks and see if that dries up his need to binge.
2) One of my friends got through what had essentially been a boredom-fueled binge drinking spell by hooking up with a girl who didn't drink. Whenever they felt bored, they'd just have sex. While obviously this might be the sort of advice that has a limited application, there are all sorts of great things to do to blow off stress without drinking (and sex is one of the best). I would warn you to be wary of emotional manipulation ("Baby, if I can't have a beer, I gotta do you up the butt...") but you seem bright. Other things that are good— sports, video games, or anything that he really enjoys. Giving him some time to do something he likes as a destressor can be a lot more effective than getting drunk (like, arrange a trip to see a movie he's been talking aboutor just give him a backrub). A lot of it, at least from my read of your question, seems to come from less chemical addiction and more psychological addiction/habit. Redirecting that energy can be really effective.
3) Man, make some new friends. I've had a group of friends like that, and frankly, I'm glad that I've ended up having only one or two close buddies and a girlfriend rather than being stuck around them all the time. Hopefully, you have some pals that are pretty cool and aren't going to be such douchebags about drinking. Hang out with one of your pals and their boyfriend. Look for people who are into activities that he enjoys. Basically, make new friends. Then he'll relinquish his old ones organically in bits and pieces while joining new social groups.
4) This is really the hardest part, and you might want to ask him. I mean, I'm not happy when my girlfriend smokes cigarettes, but I know she's addicted, and she knows that I don't like it, and I know she's trying to stop. So I leave it alone. But an addiction to alcohol is different than cigarettes. And my relationship with my girlfriend is different than your relationship with him. At a certain point, he has to decide whether he'd rather get shitfaced or stay with you. Which, were it me, would mean that I'd grade on progress, not on perfection, but I'd also be pretty blunt about not liking the behavior and wouldn't take an ongoing cycle of fuckups. There's a really thin line between you being right and him resenting it.
5) When you go out, buy the beers. That way you can pace him. Oh, and go to shows, especially all-ages ones. Or movies. Or hang out with non-drinking (or responsibly drinking) friends. I don't know where you are, but there are a fair number of things to do around here that don't involve alcohol.
6) I know you didn't ask this, but there is the very real possibility that he has enough of a drinking problem that the steps above won't be enough. That he'll have to go to rehab. Or that he'll fuck up so badly that you'll have to dump him. That's just kinda the way it is. If he's got a bum gene, he's got a bum gene, and while it's not his fault per se, it's not something you have to put up with. At a certain point ultimatums are probably your only recourse, and then you have to stick with them.
posted by klangklangston at 12:59 PM on August 19, 2006
Ok. My best friend is (or rather just was, but left the job a week ago) a drug and alcohol counsellor for about four years. I am not. Take my advice with, y'know, some salt around the rim.
1) Totally an individual thing. Some people who are binge drinkers can learn to dial it back by holding themselves to a certain number of drinks per night, some folks can't. Some can have just one drink with meals and thus get over binging. Some can't. I would try to scale it back first. Have him think aobut how many drinks it takes to get a decent buzz on. I mean, not drunk, but warmed. For my weight and metabolism, that ends up being about three or four drinks in an evening. For him, it might be less. I doubt it's more, but if it is he might want to give up drinking for a week or two so his tolerance can fall back down a bit. You can also agree to go cold turkey for a couple of weeks and see if that dries up his need to binge.
2) One of my friends got through what had essentially been a boredom-fueled binge drinking spell by hooking up with a girl who didn't drink. Whenever they felt bored, they'd just have sex. While obviously this might be the sort of advice that has a limited application, there are all sorts of great things to do to blow off stress without drinking (and sex is one of the best). I would warn you to be wary of emotional manipulation ("Baby, if I can't have a beer, I gotta do you up the butt...") but you seem bright. Other things that are good— sports, video games, or anything that he really enjoys. Giving him some time to do something he likes as a destressor can be a lot more effective than getting drunk (like, arrange a trip to see a movie he's been talking aboutor just give him a backrub). A lot of it, at least from my read of your question, seems to come from less chemical addiction and more psychological addiction/habit. Redirecting that energy can be really effective.
3) Man, make some new friends. I've had a group of friends like that, and frankly, I'm glad that I've ended up having only one or two close buddies and a girlfriend rather than being stuck around them all the time. Hopefully, you have some pals that are pretty cool and aren't going to be such douchebags about drinking. Hang out with one of your pals and their boyfriend. Look for people who are into activities that he enjoys. Basically, make new friends. Then he'll relinquish his old ones organically in bits and pieces while joining new social groups.
4) This is really the hardest part, and you might want to ask him. I mean, I'm not happy when my girlfriend smokes cigarettes, but I know she's addicted, and she knows that I don't like it, and I know she's trying to stop. So I leave it alone. But an addiction to alcohol is different than cigarettes. And my relationship with my girlfriend is different than your relationship with him. At a certain point, he has to decide whether he'd rather get shitfaced or stay with you. Which, were it me, would mean that I'd grade on progress, not on perfection, but I'd also be pretty blunt about not liking the behavior and wouldn't take an ongoing cycle of fuckups. There's a really thin line between you being right and him resenting it.
5) When you go out, buy the beers. That way you can pace him. Oh, and go to shows, especially all-ages ones. Or movies. Or hang out with non-drinking (or responsibly drinking) friends. I don't know where you are, but there are a fair number of things to do around here that don't involve alcohol.
6) I know you didn't ask this, but there is the very real possibility that he has enough of a drinking problem that the steps above won't be enough. That he'll have to go to rehab. Or that he'll fuck up so badly that you'll have to dump him. That's just kinda the way it is. If he's got a bum gene, he's got a bum gene, and while it's not his fault per se, it's not something you have to put up with. At a certain point ultimatums are probably your only recourse, and then you have to stick with them.
posted by klangklangston at 12:59 PM on August 19, 2006
His friends do almost nothing but get wasted and hanging around them sober isn't tolerated, so I'm afraid this will be cutting him off from everyone else. I'm admittedly not too fond of his friends, but I don't want his social circle to consist solely of me. How can I keep us from turning into a scary little insular world of two?
Yeah, here's a big part of the problem.
My mom once had an ex-con work for her. The last time he was arrested, bond was a million bucks. But he cleaned his life up. And here's the part that's relevant to this conversation. This guy told my mom that when he made the decision to get clean of drugs and stay out of trouble, he realized he had to change his playmates, change his playthings, and change his playground. If he continues to hang out with this bunch of drunks, he will continue to get drunk, and probably progress to something worse.
So if he wants to stay sober -- and I think we all agree only he can want it and make it work -- you are going to have to find other things to do in other places with other people. Pick an interesting hobby you can do together (skydiving, hiking, quilting, role-playing games, brainstorm! You can always ask the ask.mefi community for help finding an activity that suits you both). Then do it. And better yet, meet other people who are doing it. Before you know it, you will have new friends and plenty of answers to "what can we do on a Saturday night that doesn't involve getting falling down drunk?"
posted by ilsa at 12:59 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yeah, here's a big part of the problem.
My mom once had an ex-con work for her. The last time he was arrested, bond was a million bucks. But he cleaned his life up. And here's the part that's relevant to this conversation. This guy told my mom that when he made the decision to get clean of drugs and stay out of trouble, he realized he had to change his playmates, change his playthings, and change his playground. If he continues to hang out with this bunch of drunks, he will continue to get drunk, and probably progress to something worse.
So if he wants to stay sober -- and I think we all agree only he can want it and make it work -- you are going to have to find other things to do in other places with other people. Pick an interesting hobby you can do together (skydiving, hiking, quilting, role-playing games, brainstorm! You can always ask the ask.mefi community for help finding an activity that suits you both). Then do it. And better yet, meet other people who are doing it. Before you know it, you will have new friends and plenty of answers to "what can we do on a Saturday night that doesn't involve getting falling down drunk?"
posted by ilsa at 12:59 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
Before taking decisions or advice from Internet strangers, get yourself to some Al-Anon meeting in your area. There, you'll meet other people whose lives are affected by the drinking of loved ones, and you may learn some things about co-dependent relationships and coping behaviors that will be really useful. Go with an open mind, and keep going for awhile, whatever you think at first. A common reaction for people first walking in is that the other people that are coming to Al-Anon may really need the help, but not me. So, just go for a while (5 or 6 meetings, at least), until you "decide" if going some more is beneficial.
As for the AA thing, your guy doesn't need to make any appointment, or even think he's an alcoholic to go to meetings. Some people go for months, saying nothing, and still drinking, just to figure out whether they "truly" have a problem. He risks nothing by going, but he shouldn't go drunk. He may be asked to leave if he appears at a meeting obviously inebriated, but it happens. The people there know what to do. AA works for people who want it to work, but even AA can't claim a high success rate. It's not a miracle cure, and it's not an easy or straight road.
Other methods "work" for people, too, as AA will acknowledge. Some people become "dry drunks," meaning they stop drinking, but don't make the life changes AA considers vital to long term success as a non-drinker. "Dry drunks" can stay sober for years at a time, and may compartmentalize their drinking into "vacations," or binges far from home, so as to never be connected with excessive drinking in their home community. That's probably 1/2 of what's going on in Vegas on any given night. And some people apparently do become much better at "managing" their "social" drinking, although AA would argue that such people were probably never truly addicted, in the first place.
Addiction happens on the whole scale of human variability, but the course of the disease where alcohol is the addicting drug has certain predictable physical and social features, that both you and your guy may need to understand better, as a first step. You may find that the problem is not only the bottle, but that the bottle has become a fix for bigger, insoluble problems that prevent you and your guy from making a life together. But I wouldn't jump to extreme actions on short notice, without gathering information and advice from people who know the problem, and work with it constantly. You guys are no longer young by addiction standards, but you haven't wasted your lives in hopeless miserable ways yet, either. Go to meetings, each of you, as appropriate. Work the steps, if you see a need to change, and come to believe the method.
Good luck with tough issues.
posted by paulsc at 1:00 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
As for the AA thing, your guy doesn't need to make any appointment, or even think he's an alcoholic to go to meetings. Some people go for months, saying nothing, and still drinking, just to figure out whether they "truly" have a problem. He risks nothing by going, but he shouldn't go drunk. He may be asked to leave if he appears at a meeting obviously inebriated, but it happens. The people there know what to do. AA works for people who want it to work, but even AA can't claim a high success rate. It's not a miracle cure, and it's not an easy or straight road.
Other methods "work" for people, too, as AA will acknowledge. Some people become "dry drunks," meaning they stop drinking, but don't make the life changes AA considers vital to long term success as a non-drinker. "Dry drunks" can stay sober for years at a time, and may compartmentalize their drinking into "vacations," or binges far from home, so as to never be connected with excessive drinking in their home community. That's probably 1/2 of what's going on in Vegas on any given night. And some people apparently do become much better at "managing" their "social" drinking, although AA would argue that such people were probably never truly addicted, in the first place.
Addiction happens on the whole scale of human variability, but the course of the disease where alcohol is the addicting drug has certain predictable physical and social features, that both you and your guy may need to understand better, as a first step. You may find that the problem is not only the bottle, but that the bottle has become a fix for bigger, insoluble problems that prevent you and your guy from making a life together. But I wouldn't jump to extreme actions on short notice, without gathering information and advice from people who know the problem, and work with it constantly. You guys are no longer young by addiction standards, but you haven't wasted your lives in hopeless miserable ways yet, either. Go to meetings, each of you, as appropriate. Work the steps, if you see a need to change, and come to believe the method.
Good luck with tough issues.
posted by paulsc at 1:00 PM on August 19, 2006 [1 favorite]
"AA isn't the only way (particularly if you're not a theist), but they're right about one thing: you can't choose to "control your drinking". It's all or nothing."
That's really true for some people, but not true for a fairly substantial number of others. It's just that the people who can't control their drinking always feel like they'll be able to, and are proved wrong again and again.
Like I mentioned, I've seen quite a few buddies go through the post-college binge drinking phase, and some of 'em are now bone dry while others just don't binge anymore. (Some are full-blown alcoholics who are likely to die, but I'm not really friends with them anymore). I know that the generation of DARE kids thinks that a drink a night with dinner is an addiction, but there are shades of grey.
posted by klangklangston at 1:04 PM on August 19, 2006
That's really true for some people, but not true for a fairly substantial number of others. It's just that the people who can't control their drinking always feel like they'll be able to, and are proved wrong again and again.
Like I mentioned, I've seen quite a few buddies go through the post-college binge drinking phase, and some of 'em are now bone dry while others just don't binge anymore. (Some are full-blown alcoholics who are likely to die, but I'm not really friends with them anymore). I know that the generation of DARE kids thinks that a drink a night with dinner is an addiction, but there are shades of grey.
posted by klangklangston at 1:04 PM on August 19, 2006
That's good advice from Paulsc.
posted by klangklangston at 1:06 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 1:06 PM on August 19, 2006
I really don't think there's a need to "STOP DRINKING ALTOGETHER, PLZKTHX", you just need to get him to realize that a third glass of beer does NOT need to lead to a fourth and fifth. If he goes cold turkey, I think there's a way bigger chance of total and complete relapse.
Make it so he would rather spend a night with you then off drinking. Hint: Better sex. I hear superhero costumes are all the rage.
If you're at home, leave 1 or 2 beers in the fridge and the rest well-hidden.
Unfortunately, he'll probably need new friends if his current ones do not tolerate not drinking to excess. Essentially, I think you need to take him out of the situations where he is expected to get shitfaced, and if he really does want to stop, he should be able to wrap his head around that.
posted by trevyn at 1:09 PM on August 19, 2006
Make it so he would rather spend a night with you then off drinking. Hint: Better sex. I hear superhero costumes are all the rage.
If you're at home, leave 1 or 2 beers in the fridge and the rest well-hidden.
Unfortunately, he'll probably need new friends if his current ones do not tolerate not drinking to excess. Essentially, I think you need to take him out of the situations where he is expected to get shitfaced, and if he really does want to stop, he should be able to wrap his head around that.
posted by trevyn at 1:09 PM on August 19, 2006
Well. As other people have said, I think whether to cut down or quit entirely is very much an individual thing. Hardcore alcoholics seem to need to give up entirely, other people manage to moderate their drinking. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to tell which group you're in. Set a strict limit, and try to keep it. If you can't keep to the limit, you're an alcoholic and need to go to AA. If you can keep to the limit, you're not addicted.
You haven't said why you think he's addicted, so I'm not sure that he is. Certainly here in the UK, in many circles it's quite socially acceptable to drink to you vomit or pass out at least a once or twice times a week. He may just be doing it because boozing is fun and everyone else is doing the same thing.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2006
You haven't said why you think he's addicted, so I'm not sure that he is. Certainly here in the UK, in many circles it's quite socially acceptable to drink to you vomit or pass out at least a once or twice times a week. He may just be doing it because boozing is fun and everyone else is doing the same thing.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2006
I'd give him one chance to sober up, no more than a year to prove he can stay the course. If not, then I'd cut & run. Otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time and be driven quite crazy. Do you want to have kids one day? Don't waste your eggs trying to fix this guy unless you plan on staying with him unconditionally, and don't mind the possibility of your kid's father being a drunk, or you being essentially the only adult in your household.
*Note on the "theist" problem: I've had several friends and/or lovers go into AA, and all of them were stone atheists.
I've also seen AA work wonderfully for atheists, the god thing isn't an issue. A person's "higher power" can be anything they want it to be, the concept is not limited.
posted by zarah at 1:35 PM on August 19, 2006
*Note on the "theist" problem: I've had several friends and/or lovers go into AA, and all of them were stone atheists.
I've also seen AA work wonderfully for atheists, the god thing isn't an issue. A person's "higher power" can be anything they want it to be, the concept is not limited.
posted by zarah at 1:35 PM on August 19, 2006
William Miller and Reid Hester, editors of the most comprehensive and most methodologically sound evaluation of treatment methods ever published, state that, "We were pleased to see that a number of treatment methods were consistently supported by controlled scientific research." But they continue, "On the other hand, we were dismayed to realize that virtually none of these treatment methods was in common use within alcohol treatment programs in the United States...
They list the treatment methods showing the most positive results, as shown by controlled studies, as brief intervention, social skills training, motivational enhancement, community reinforcement approach, and behavior contracting. Importantly, 12-step treatment was nowhere in evidence in the list of effective treatments; but it was quite likely a component of four modalities for which a number of studies show significant negative results: unspecified “standard” treatment; confrontational counseling; milieu therapy; and general alcoholism counseling. As for AA, Miller and Hester list only the two controlled studies discussed above, both of which showed negative results. (Source.)
The evidence shows that AA does not work better than other methods, including do-it-yourself. AA tells you that you are powerless and so may actually lead to increased bingeing. If someone tells you enough times that if you have a single drink, you will inevitably have a binge, guess what happens if you take a single drink?
Maybe he can see a psychologist/psychiatrist who specializes in addiction. Perhaps he has an untreated depression/anxiety disorder.
Point out that no matter what the AA dogma says, he is always in control of his arms (at least before he has a few!), so he cannot be "powerless" over alcohol.
posted by callmejay at 1:36 PM on August 19, 2006 [3 favorites]
They list the treatment methods showing the most positive results, as shown by controlled studies, as brief intervention, social skills training, motivational enhancement, community reinforcement approach, and behavior contracting. Importantly, 12-step treatment was nowhere in evidence in the list of effective treatments; but it was quite likely a component of four modalities for which a number of studies show significant negative results: unspecified “standard” treatment; confrontational counseling; milieu therapy; and general alcoholism counseling. As for AA, Miller and Hester list only the two controlled studies discussed above, both of which showed negative results. (Source.)
The evidence shows that AA does not work better than other methods, including do-it-yourself. AA tells you that you are powerless and so may actually lead to increased bingeing. If someone tells you enough times that if you have a single drink, you will inevitably have a binge, guess what happens if you take a single drink?
Maybe he can see a psychologist/psychiatrist who specializes in addiction. Perhaps he has an untreated depression/anxiety disorder.
Point out that no matter what the AA dogma says, he is always in control of his arms (at least before he has a few!), so he cannot be "powerless" over alcohol.
posted by callmejay at 1:36 PM on August 19, 2006 [3 favorites]
Leave. Without consequences for his actions, he doesn't have a chance.
And it is less painful for you in the long term.
posted by QIbHom at 1:42 PM on August 19, 2006
And it is less painful for you in the long term.
posted by QIbHom at 1:42 PM on August 19, 2006
Find some stuff to do together and for him to do seperately that will give him peers besides the group of pals he's got. With any luck, you and he will wind up making some new friends, too.
What has he always wanted to learn to do? Play guitar? Scuba dive? Speak Japanese? Be a lion tamer? Look for classes, clubs, hobbies, projects...something to look forward to besides having a drink with the boys.
posted by desuetude at 1:53 PM on August 19, 2006
What has he always wanted to learn to do? Play guitar? Scuba dive? Speak Japanese? Be a lion tamer? Look for classes, clubs, hobbies, projects...something to look forward to besides having a drink with the boys.
posted by desuetude at 1:53 PM on August 19, 2006
My favorite definition of an alcoholic, which I've not seen here yet, is "one who has an extremely high tolerance for alchohol"; that is, someone who can drink a couple six packs without getting falling down drunk.
I like it because it's a medical definition, and it's testable -- though you really don't have to; you can usually smell the ketones a mile away.
If your BF is not actually an alcoholic, then behavior modification, and falling in with a better crowd, may well permit him to dial it back rather than quitting cold turkey, if he decides that's what he wants to do.
You will, though, as others have said, need to keep a careful eye on the oxygen mask, so as to decide when it has become necessary to put it on. (Advice to parents travelling with children on airliners: if the oxygen mask drops, put it on *yourself*, first.)
posted by baylink at 1:57 PM on August 19, 2006
I like it because it's a medical definition, and it's testable -- though you really don't have to; you can usually smell the ketones a mile away.
If your BF is not actually an alcoholic, then behavior modification, and falling in with a better crowd, may well permit him to dial it back rather than quitting cold turkey, if he decides that's what he wants to do.
You will, though, as others have said, need to keep a careful eye on the oxygen mask, so as to decide when it has become necessary to put it on. (Advice to parents travelling with children on airliners: if the oxygen mask drops, put it on *yourself*, first.)
posted by baylink at 1:57 PM on August 19, 2006
It's possible he's not an alcoholic. Your description of the situation sounds bad, we don't know much in terms of how often he gets that drunk, how it affects his relationships, his work, his health, how long he's been drinking this heavily, etc. You haven't told us how you realized he's an alcoholic - if it's just that this has dawned on you, then maybe he's not that bad. People do get that drunk, periodically, even if they're not alcoholics. When I was in high school, I went to some alcohol related life skills class, and came home thinking my parents were alcoholics. (Which they definitely are not.) I'm not saying you have that level of maturity, but it does sound to me like you don't have a lot of experience with alcohol - maybe you're overreacting. Which, in this case, would be good for you all, because then I think you have a chance of this working out, of him resolving this problem drinking. If he really is an alcoholic - and I think you should see someone to figure this part out - then I'd say run before you get more involved, and you are the wife of a drunk and your kids' dad is a drunk.
As for how to handle it if/when he slips - I don't think you should take it personally. He has a weakness. He says he wants to stop. He's not drinking to hurt you, he's drinking in spite of the fact that he knows it will upset you, and it's not good for him, because he is too weak to say no. That's not your particular character flaw, but most likely you have your own flaws as well, and he puts up wight them.
posted by Amizu at 3:26 PM on August 19, 2006
As for how to handle it if/when he slips - I don't think you should take it personally. He has a weakness. He says he wants to stop. He's not drinking to hurt you, he's drinking in spite of the fact that he knows it will upset you, and it's not good for him, because he is too weak to say no. That's not your particular character flaw, but most likely you have your own flaws as well, and he puts up wight them.
posted by Amizu at 3:26 PM on August 19, 2006
Steven C. Den Beste: "Unfortunately, the sad answer to your question is that you can't do anything at all. It's entirely his problem and he's the only one who can do something about it."
QIbHom: "Leave. Without consequences for his actions, he doesn't have a chance... And it is less painful for you in the long term."
This is going to be very, very hard. These two pieces of advice point to the strength you're going to have to have, but I think it'd be better to put it this way:
Remember that all you can do is ask him to stop. Though you're not at this point yet, telling him to stop may extend to begging, screaming, crying, cajoling, withholding sex, withholding food, and maybe even leaving; but none of those things can really make someone drop alcoholism. He has to do it for himself.
Tell him now that you're willing to help remind him to quit, but that you can't do it for him. (And if you haven't told him the bit about this being a dealbreaker when you're looking to start a family, you should tell him now.) It might scare him a little, but it sounds like he'll be open to it, and scaring could do him good.
You should also let him know just how loyal you are. And you are extremely loyal. It is both impressive and a very, very good sign for the two of you that you feel you have "mostly a pretty awesome relationship" with someone who is often drunk. Likewise, he must be an amazing person to carry on a relationship well while getting wasted a lot of the time. I mean this in all seriousness; most people don't realise how hard it is to maintain a relationship.
As far as your specific questions go:
First, I think that it's best to cut off completely and immediately. It isn't always necessary, but it's easiest. You don't have to promise never to have a drink again, but six to twelve months of not drinking can be a solid foundation to build moderation on. I also say you should cut off completely because it sounds like this is a social dependance just as much as a chemical one.
I think your questions 2 and 3 are very related; a bad self-image is usually the reason someone would hang around with folks who don't 'tolerate' sobriety. It will be easier for him to cut off all at once in this case because it'll be easier for him to wear his newfound sobriety like a badge than to try to hide it. If he just tries to 'scale back,' he'll probably try to do it without his friends noticing; and trying to be moderate without your friends noticing is a recipe for drunkenness, believe me. He must be bold. Those who are really his friends will stay his friends.
posted by koeselitz at 4:34 PM on August 19, 2006
QIbHom: "Leave. Without consequences for his actions, he doesn't have a chance... And it is less painful for you in the long term."
This is going to be very, very hard. These two pieces of advice point to the strength you're going to have to have, but I think it'd be better to put it this way:
Remember that all you can do is ask him to stop. Though you're not at this point yet, telling him to stop may extend to begging, screaming, crying, cajoling, withholding sex, withholding food, and maybe even leaving; but none of those things can really make someone drop alcoholism. He has to do it for himself.
Tell him now that you're willing to help remind him to quit, but that you can't do it for him. (And if you haven't told him the bit about this being a dealbreaker when you're looking to start a family, you should tell him now.) It might scare him a little, but it sounds like he'll be open to it, and scaring could do him good.
You should also let him know just how loyal you are. And you are extremely loyal. It is both impressive and a very, very good sign for the two of you that you feel you have "mostly a pretty awesome relationship" with someone who is often drunk. Likewise, he must be an amazing person to carry on a relationship well while getting wasted a lot of the time. I mean this in all seriousness; most people don't realise how hard it is to maintain a relationship.
As far as your specific questions go:
First, I think that it's best to cut off completely and immediately. It isn't always necessary, but it's easiest. You don't have to promise never to have a drink again, but six to twelve months of not drinking can be a solid foundation to build moderation on. I also say you should cut off completely because it sounds like this is a social dependance just as much as a chemical one.
I think your questions 2 and 3 are very related; a bad self-image is usually the reason someone would hang around with folks who don't 'tolerate' sobriety. It will be easier for him to cut off all at once in this case because it'll be easier for him to wear his newfound sobriety like a badge than to try to hide it. If he just tries to 'scale back,' he'll probably try to do it without his friends noticing; and trying to be moderate without your friends noticing is a recipe for drunkenness, believe me. He must be bold. Those who are really his friends will stay his friends.
posted by koeselitz at 4:34 PM on August 19, 2006
I'm going to add my voice to the idea of finding things for him to do other than hang out with his heavy-drinking friends. If you've got other friends or activities in common that don't tend towards drinking, try spending more time with them. If there's something your boyfriend enjoys that doesn't lead to drinking, encourage him to do more of it. And so on.
Nice thing about this approach is that even if it doesn't do the job by itself, it will make any later transition (AA, etc.) easier. Quitting a bad habit is much harder if you suddenly find yourself with nothing else to do.
If you know any of his drinking buddies well enough to drag him along as well, then that might make the process less creepy and isolating for your bf. (And if binge drinking is his way of dealing with stress, then creepy and isolating = more drinking, probably.) On the other hand, it might make it harder for your bf to avoid his old habit, if his friend (who he asssociates with drinking) is there with him.
posted by hattifattener at 5:48 PM on August 19, 2006
Nice thing about this approach is that even if it doesn't do the job by itself, it will make any later transition (AA, etc.) easier. Quitting a bad habit is much harder if you suddenly find yourself with nothing else to do.
If you know any of his drinking buddies well enough to drag him along as well, then that might make the process less creepy and isolating for your bf. (And if binge drinking is his way of dealing with stress, then creepy and isolating = more drinking, probably.) On the other hand, it might make it harder for your bf to avoid his old habit, if his friend (who he asssociates with drinking) is there with him.
posted by hattifattener at 5:48 PM on August 19, 2006
you just need to get him to realize that a third glass of beer does NOT need to lead to a fourth and fifth
With respect, if we're truly dealing with an addiction here, this is very bad advice, for several reasons.
1. If he's addicted, the poster cannot "get him to realize" anything that will directly transfer into a behavior change, especially regarding how much alcohol he "needs." He's going to drink until he's gotten his fix. That's what an addiction is.
2. It places an impossible burden on the poster, and reiterates the illusion of control that many people who are in relationships with addicts have. The fact is, anonymous, there's very little you can do to help him. Rationalizing with him, fighting with him, being in charge of buying the beer - don't go down that rabbit hole because you'll never find your way out. Partly because it just won't work, but also, in order to successfully kick the habit, he's got to take responsibility for himself and his own actions. It's hard enough to change your own behavior - you can't change someone else's, especially addictions. You can support him and love him and help him where you can, but please recognize your limitations. Honestly, the best thing you can do for him is get yourself to Al-Anon and work on your own issues.
I'm not at all saying this is you, anon, but I think too many women subscribe to the whole June Carter savior fantasy of rescuing a man through the purity of their love. It arises from the desire to not just be loved, but to be needed. For every Walk the Line, there's ten thousand stories of women who got attached to an addict, tried to save them, and got dragged right down with them. You'll find a bunch of them at Al-Anon.
So: his friends suck. He needs new ones. AA might be a good idea if for no other reason it provides him with a new social circle/community of nondrinkers. It's not a religious cult (for Christ's sake) but if it doesn't work for him then he still needs to find new friends. I think you're very right to be concerned that if he drops these ones, you'll be the only one he has left - THAT'S BAD. You can't be the only one he has to rely on.
I'm sorry if this is scattered and strange, but I (obviously) get a little emotional about this issue. Your heart is totally in the right place, and I really wish you the best.
posted by granted at 7:35 PM on August 19, 2006 [2 favorites]
With respect, if we're truly dealing with an addiction here, this is very bad advice, for several reasons.
1. If he's addicted, the poster cannot "get him to realize" anything that will directly transfer into a behavior change, especially regarding how much alcohol he "needs." He's going to drink until he's gotten his fix. That's what an addiction is.
2. It places an impossible burden on the poster, and reiterates the illusion of control that many people who are in relationships with addicts have. The fact is, anonymous, there's very little you can do to help him. Rationalizing with him, fighting with him, being in charge of buying the beer - don't go down that rabbit hole because you'll never find your way out. Partly because it just won't work, but also, in order to successfully kick the habit, he's got to take responsibility for himself and his own actions. It's hard enough to change your own behavior - you can't change someone else's, especially addictions. You can support him and love him and help him where you can, but please recognize your limitations. Honestly, the best thing you can do for him is get yourself to Al-Anon and work on your own issues.
I'm not at all saying this is you, anon, but I think too many women subscribe to the whole June Carter savior fantasy of rescuing a man through the purity of their love. It arises from the desire to not just be loved, but to be needed. For every Walk the Line, there's ten thousand stories of women who got attached to an addict, tried to save them, and got dragged right down with them. You'll find a bunch of them at Al-Anon.
So: his friends suck. He needs new ones. AA might be a good idea if for no other reason it provides him with a new social circle/community of nondrinkers. It's not a religious cult (for Christ's sake) but if it doesn't work for him then he still needs to find new friends. I think you're very right to be concerned that if he drops these ones, you'll be the only one he has left - THAT'S BAD. You can't be the only one he has to rely on.
I'm sorry if this is scattered and strange, but I (obviously) get a little emotional about this issue. Your heart is totally in the right place, and I really wish you the best.
posted by granted at 7:35 PM on August 19, 2006 [2 favorites]
AA tells you that you are powerless and so may actually lead to increased bingeing. If someone tells you enough times that if you have a single drink, you will inevitably have a binge, guess what happens if you take a single drink?
AA doesn't say that. Acknowledging one's powerlessness in the face of addiction is not at all the same as saying one drink===>binge. They're saying you can't control what will happen. The only way to retain self-control is to not drink at all. This is not meaningless dogma. I mean, an alcoholic can go ahead and try to have just one drink if he/she wants, and see what happens. If he can limit himself, great! Makes things easier. No AA necessary. But if he can't, then he can't, no matter what happy lines he'd like to feed himself about what he should or should not be able to do. It's likely that he'll have found himself repeating the pattern of "just one" long before AA comes into the picture anyway.
It requires a lot of humility and self-acceptance to admit that one's actions are not fully in one's control, that one's will is not entirely free. It's great if you've never had to deal with addiction - or on a lesser scale if you're the sort of person who keeps all your New Year's Resolutions and loses ten pounds when you set out to do it and limits your internet usage to half an hour each morning and evening. But some people need some extra help. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
posted by granted at 8:17 PM on August 19, 2006
AA doesn't say that. Acknowledging one's powerlessness in the face of addiction is not at all the same as saying one drink===>binge. They're saying you can't control what will happen. The only way to retain self-control is to not drink at all. This is not meaningless dogma. I mean, an alcoholic can go ahead and try to have just one drink if he/she wants, and see what happens. If he can limit himself, great! Makes things easier. No AA necessary. But if he can't, then he can't, no matter what happy lines he'd like to feed himself about what he should or should not be able to do. It's likely that he'll have found himself repeating the pattern of "just one" long before AA comes into the picture anyway.
It requires a lot of humility and self-acceptance to admit that one's actions are not fully in one's control, that one's will is not entirely free. It's great if you've never had to deal with addiction - or on a lesser scale if you're the sort of person who keeps all your New Year's Resolutions and loses ten pounds when you set out to do it and limits your internet usage to half an hour each morning and evening. But some people need some extra help. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
posted by granted at 8:17 PM on August 19, 2006
Here are a few alternatives to AA:
SMART Recovery
Secular Organizations for Sobriety
Moderation Management
LifeRing
naltrexone
therapy
antidepressants
vital absorbing creative interests
etc.
As for you, your role is to be supportive but not take responsibility for his sobriety or lack therof. Please ignore the poster above who suggested hiding the beer. That way lies madness.
posted by acridrabbit at 8:37 PM on August 19, 2006
SMART Recovery
Secular Organizations for Sobriety
Moderation Management
LifeRing
naltrexone
therapy
antidepressants
vital absorbing creative interests
etc.
As for you, your role is to be supportive but not take responsibility for his sobriety or lack therof. Please ignore the poster above who suggested hiding the beer. That way lies madness.
posted by acridrabbit at 8:37 PM on August 19, 2006
I think the new friends suggestion is probably item #1. I moved across the country to avoid falling into this trap. My 'friends' went on getting drunk and didn't even call me. I talk to my best friend and will be his best man in a few years, and my friends here are my coworkers, my roommate, my ex-girlfriend, and my girlfriend.
posted by SpecialK at 8:40 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by SpecialK at 8:40 PM on August 19, 2006
I'd give him one chance to sober up, no more than a year to prove he can stay the course. If not, then I'd cut & run. Otherwise you're going to waste a lot of time and be driven quite crazy.
I like this idea and would also suggest that you make this plan very clear to him - even going so far as to mark the date on the calendar in the kitchen.
He has a clearly defined goal, target date, concequence of failing and the knowledge that you will support him to achieve it.
If he cannot do it in the timescales, then you need to realise that the relationship is over and you need to walk.
No-one should get married to a drunk.
posted by mr_silver at 2:43 AM on August 20, 2006
I like this idea and would also suggest that you make this plan very clear to him - even going so far as to mark the date on the calendar in the kitchen.
He has a clearly defined goal, target date, concequence of failing and the knowledge that you will support him to achieve it.
If he cannot do it in the timescales, then you need to realise that the relationship is over and you need to walk.
No-one should get married to a drunk.
posted by mr_silver at 2:43 AM on August 20, 2006
I think this is more a relationship question than an alcoholism one.
We haven't established that the guy is, in fact, chemically dependent on alcohol, so AA and the like is probably overkill. You've already asked him to tone it down, so it's up to him now. The part that's up to you is how much you'll put up with. I find it best to leave "how much is too much" fuzzy in conversations with him, because you want him to be constantly asking himself the question "is this what she meant by too much"? Give him a defined limit and he can more easily engage in passive-aggressive boundary testing, which even people who love each other engage in.
If he's not willing or able to come to a nuanced, adult understanding of what you need in the relationship, then it's not a good relationship, and you should end it because he's not the man for you, whether or not he's drinking too much.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 11:51 AM on August 20, 2006
We haven't established that the guy is, in fact, chemically dependent on alcohol, so AA and the like is probably overkill. You've already asked him to tone it down, so it's up to him now. The part that's up to you is how much you'll put up with. I find it best to leave "how much is too much" fuzzy in conversations with him, because you want him to be constantly asking himself the question "is this what she meant by too much"? Give him a defined limit and he can more easily engage in passive-aggressive boundary testing, which even people who love each other engage in.
If he's not willing or able to come to a nuanced, adult understanding of what you need in the relationship, then it's not a good relationship, and you should end it because he's not the man for you, whether or not he's drinking too much.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 11:51 AM on August 20, 2006
I don't know if you'll check this thread again, but there's a brilliant first person account of AA here. The writer is not a fan.
He also discusses AA's history here.
And well done you for supporting your boyfriend.
posted by t0astie at 5:34 PM on August 20, 2006
He also discusses AA's history here.
And well done you for supporting your boyfriend.
posted by t0astie at 5:34 PM on August 20, 2006
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Don't take a chance. Make an appointment.
posted by rinkjustice at 12:16 PM on August 19, 2006