Is there a book like "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess" for No Limit Texas Hold 'Em?
August 17, 2006 8:30 AM Subscribe
Is there a book like "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess" for No Limit Texas Hold 'Em?
There are tons of chess books, and tons of poker books, but for my money that little paperback workbook improved my chess game more than any other.
I've read a few introductory books on poker, and am starting to get the hang of it, but I'd really like to see a workbook with scenarios to work through, with explanations of when to bet and when to check or fold on the answer page.
There are tons of chess books, and tons of poker books, but for my money that little paperback workbook improved my chess game more than any other.
I've read a few introductory books on poker, and am starting to get the hang of it, but I'd really like to see a workbook with scenarios to work through, with explanations of when to bet and when to check or fold on the answer page.
The best recommendations on poker books probably come from mosch, who used to make a lot of money playing.
This google search for his AskMe answers is your best bet. In particular, this post of his from the first link of that search is probably the answer you're looking for.
posted by Ryvar at 8:39 AM on August 17, 2006
This google search for his AskMe answers is your best bet. In particular, this post of his from the first link of that search is probably the answer you're looking for.
posted by Ryvar at 8:39 AM on August 17, 2006
Response by poster: Thanks, but I'm not asking just for good books for beginners. I know there are a lot of them. I'm looking for a book that is very similar to the Bobby Fisher book, where there is very little text, and it's just problems, and you learn that way.
posted by andrewzipp at 8:43 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by andrewzipp at 8:43 AM on August 17, 2006
There are a number of such books for limit hold'em. But that isn't what you asked for. If you want to change your mind and play limit, I have a number of good suggestions for you.
For No Limit, the best book of that sort is probably Vol 3 of the Harrington on Hold'Em series, which is entirely in the Q&A format. Unfortunately, it isn't really aimed at new players. The only other book in that format I can think of is How Good is Your Pot Limit Hold'Em, which is of course on Pot Limit instead of No Limit. Phil Gordon's upcoming Little Blue Book will be more of a workbook format. Most of the acknowledged classics are not in the the workbook format.
posted by Lame_username at 8:43 AM on August 17, 2006
For No Limit, the best book of that sort is probably Vol 3 of the Harrington on Hold'Em series, which is entirely in the Q&A format. Unfortunately, it isn't really aimed at new players. The only other book in that format I can think of is How Good is Your Pot Limit Hold'Em, which is of course on Pot Limit instead of No Limit. Phil Gordon's upcoming Little Blue Book will be more of a workbook format. Most of the acknowledged classics are not in the the workbook format.
posted by Lame_username at 8:43 AM on August 17, 2006
The best recommendations on poker books probably come from mosch, who used to make a lot of money playing.Some of us still do. ;)
posted by Lame_username at 8:45 AM on August 17, 2006
Response by poster: Well, maybe I'll write that book someday. There needs to be something like this for beginners, where on one page there is a picture of your cards and the board, and you have to figure out what to do, and then you flip the page over and there is the answer.
posted by andrewzipp at 9:01 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by andrewzipp at 9:01 AM on August 17, 2006
When I was playing online, the Two Plus Two forums were my bible. Most posts are walkthroughs of hands where individual decisions are debated . Check those forums out if you haven't already.
posted by turaho at 9:22 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by turaho at 9:22 AM on August 17, 2006
I'm looking for a book that is very similar to the Bobby Fisher book, where there is very little text, and it's just problems, and you learn that way.
That is an exact description of Harrington on Hold 'em.
posted by knave at 9:42 AM on August 17, 2006
That is an exact description of Harrington on Hold 'em.
posted by knave at 9:42 AM on August 17, 2006
Response by poster: Ok, I'll check out the Harrington books and the 2+2 message boards. The only book I've bought so far, Getting Started in Hold 'em was published by 2+2. I really like that book, but I want to learn more about No Limit, which he doesn't really get into that much.
posted by andrewzipp at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by andrewzipp at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2006
The first problem is that unlike chess, there often is not an ideal solution to any given problem. On 2+2 you will find lots of very smart, gifted poker poker giving opposite answers to problems. It's also extremely dependant on your opponents, what you have seen them do, and what you think they might do.
The Harrington books are great but they are about no limit *tournaments*. If that's what you're playing, great, if not, they may help, but there is a big different between cash games and tournaments.
The twoplustwo.com forums are excellent. I read there in my stake/game interests daily and posts hands that I find confusing or difficult there.
Small Stakes Holdem is a classic but it's about limit, not no limit. The whole last half of the book is examples, though, so maybe a bit like what you're looking for.
Some of us still make *extremely tiny* amounts of money playing poker.
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:15 AM on August 17, 2006
The Harrington books are great but they are about no limit *tournaments*. If that's what you're playing, great, if not, they may help, but there is a big different between cash games and tournaments.
The twoplustwo.com forums are excellent. I read there in my stake/game interests daily and posts hands that I find confusing or difficult there.
Small Stakes Holdem is a classic but it's about limit, not no limit. The whole last half of the book is examples, though, so maybe a bit like what you're looking for.
Some of us still make *extremely tiny* amounts of money playing poker.
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:15 AM on August 17, 2006
If you want the mathematics behind poker and you want to work through scenarios, then I'd say by far your best bets are the Sklansky books, published by 2+2:
Theory of Poker
Tournament Poker for Advanced Players
No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice
The books that taught me the most, by far, though, was Play Poker Like the Pros by Helmuth. It sounds like a corny book for beginners, but it has excellent advice and scenarios.
posted by atomly at 10:55 AM on August 17, 2006
Theory of Poker
Tournament Poker for Advanced Players
No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice
The books that taught me the most, by far, though, was Play Poker Like the Pros by Helmuth. It sounds like a corny book for beginners, but it has excellent advice and scenarios.
posted by atomly at 10:55 AM on August 17, 2006
Please, please be clear as to what you're looking for. No-Limit hold'em is a varied game. A cash game and a tournament will require very different strategies. Harrington on Hold'em is dedicated solely to tournaments. Of course there is a ton of good info on the game in general, but I would be careful about using it to learn a standard cash-game NL strategy.
It is, however, pretty much the only workbook I know of for NL problems. There's a lot of limit stuff out there, but NL is starting to be hot right now, because that's what they play in the tournaments on TV. If it's tournaments you want, then for sure HoH is perfect for you. Otherwise, it might be hit and miss.
posted by splice at 11:18 AM on August 17, 2006
It is, however, pretty much the only workbook I know of for NL problems. There's a lot of limit stuff out there, but NL is starting to be hot right now, because that's what they play in the tournaments on TV. If it's tournaments you want, then for sure HoH is perfect for you. Otherwise, it might be hit and miss.
posted by splice at 11:18 AM on August 17, 2006
I second RustyBrooks' answer. There is a main difference between poker and chess. Although they are both very difficult to master. In poker you have only limited information (you only know he cards that you hold, and the community cards) In chess you have all the information (the location of your opponents pieces). As a result, in chess if you make all the right decisions in the game, you are likely going to win. This is not true for poker. In a particular situation, you could make the best decision possible, with the information you have, and you opponent could do the same thing. However, in the end there is only going to be one clear winner.
So the easy answer to your question is, you should Bet or Raise when you believe you have the best hand, Check when you are unsure, and fold when you have the worst. However, poker is all about learning your opponents patterns and behaviors, so you are going to want to change to your play up a bit. You need to learn to read your opponents and put them on hands, to make the correct decisions. It takes allot of practice and it won't be covered in one book. The best thing you can is play as many hands of Hold 'em as possible. And read books from the great players, when you need help improving your game.
Poker is a game of odds, but the game becomes infinitely more difficult when you add more personalities and playing style.
I am also still learning, so I not trying to portray myself as a professional. There are many more strategies to this game. The answers to this question, will barely scratch the surface. These are mainly things I've read and heard from other poker players (Professional or otherwise)
I also second the two plus two forums, they are a great resource.
posted by blister at 11:20 AM on August 17, 2006
So the easy answer to your question is, you should Bet or Raise when you believe you have the best hand, Check when you are unsure, and fold when you have the worst. However, poker is all about learning your opponents patterns and behaviors, so you are going to want to change to your play up a bit. You need to learn to read your opponents and put them on hands, to make the correct decisions. It takes allot of practice and it won't be covered in one book. The best thing you can is play as many hands of Hold 'em as possible. And read books from the great players, when you need help improving your game.
Poker is a game of odds, but the game becomes infinitely more difficult when you add more personalities and playing style.
I am also still learning, so I not trying to portray myself as a professional. There are many more strategies to this game. The answers to this question, will barely scratch the surface. These are mainly things I've read and heard from other poker players (Professional or otherwise)
I also second the two plus two forums, they are a great resource.
posted by blister at 11:20 AM on August 17, 2006
That is an exact description of Harrington on Hold 'em.Only Vol 3 is purely examples. The first two Volumes contain a lot of text. As Rusty points out, it is geared more towards tourney play. This is particularly true of Vol 2, which emphasizes inflection points. Early stages of tourneys play more like deep stack NL cash games. Turaho is right that the on-line discussion forums are the best place to learn from examples. My favorites are 2+2 and ITH. 2+2 is much more active and authoritative and ITH is more tolerant of newbies.
I have some trouble with atomly's advice. His first three books are reasonable choices (ToP in particular is the best poker book ever written), but they don't fit the rules laid out in the OP. The Hellmuth book is pretty much horrible.
andrewzip, the reason that no book quite like this exists is mostly because the answer to every poker question is "it depends."
posted by Lame_username at 11:20 AM on August 17, 2006
Just dropping in to second 2+2. They have a pretty standardized format for presenting all of the action in a given hand. People also usually post some background information about the players at the table and previous hands (such as whether a given player has been making large raises, thus appearing "aggressive") and their own playing style.
RustyBrooks is right: the correct move against a weak tight player is often very different from the correct one against an aggressive loose player, for example, so it's hard to write a book with "correct" plays. Poker requires either general priciples or extraordinarily detailed example with a lot of background.
blister's method would get you killed by a strong player--he or she would be able to very accurately put you on hands and would respond appropriately. The trick in poker is to gain as much information as possible about your opponents, while giving away as little as possible about yourself.
posted by lackutrol at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2006
RustyBrooks is right: the correct move against a weak tight player is often very different from the correct one against an aggressive loose player, for example, so it's hard to write a book with "correct" plays. Poker requires either general priciples or extraordinarily detailed example with a lot of background.
blister's method would get you killed by a strong player--he or she would be able to very accurately put you on hands and would respond appropriately. The trick in poker is to gain as much information as possible about your opponents, while giving away as little as possible about yourself.
posted by lackutrol at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2006
There needs to be something like this for beginners, where on one page there is a picture of your cards and the board, and you have to figure out what to do, and then you flip the page over and there is the answer.
I have that book. It's the Illustrated Guide to No-Limit Hold Em. If you go to the search inside feature on Amazon, and click on the back cover of the book you can see that on one side of the page it gives you an illustration that lists your position, amount of chips of all players, your cards, what's on the flop, etc., and basically asks what you would do. On the next page, it gives you the answer and explanation. Some of the problems go from pre-flop (should you raise, fold, call) all the way through the flop and turn to the river, each page answering what you should have done with that hand and why. If all you wanted was problems to solve, it might be what you're looking for.
posted by Ugh at 3:28 PM on August 17, 2006
I have that book. It's the Illustrated Guide to No-Limit Hold Em. If you go to the search inside feature on Amazon, and click on the back cover of the book you can see that on one side of the page it gives you an illustration that lists your position, amount of chips of all players, your cards, what's on the flop, etc., and basically asks what you would do. On the next page, it gives you the answer and explanation. Some of the problems go from pre-flop (should you raise, fold, call) all the way through the flop and turn to the river, each page answering what you should have done with that hand and why. If all you wanted was problems to solve, it might be what you're looking for.
posted by Ugh at 3:28 PM on August 17, 2006
blister's method would get you killed by a strong player--he or she would be able to very accurately put you on hands and would respond appropriately. The trick in poker is to gain as much information as possible about your opponents, while giving away as little as possible about yourself.
Sorry for incomplete thought, I wasn't suggesting a method necessarily. I was attempting to make a statement that always doing the same thing in poker will not work. The "easy answer" that I gave was to show that the only thing the like this book, like the one andrewzipp was looking for, could cover is the "easy answer". There won't be one specific way to play a hand. Whether or not you should bet, raise, fold all depends on many factors. Like everyone has stated: "it depends"
These are the things that will be covered in the previously posted forums and books. Learning when to raise, check and fold is too complex to be covered in a workbook. You learn as you play and read, and then play more. As lackutrol as stated you also want to mask your own play. You definetly don't want to always do the same thing in the similar situations.
posted by blister at 6:06 PM on August 17, 2006
Sorry for incomplete thought, I wasn't suggesting a method necessarily. I was attempting to make a statement that always doing the same thing in poker will not work. The "easy answer" that I gave was to show that the only thing the like this book, like the one andrewzipp was looking for, could cover is the "easy answer". There won't be one specific way to play a hand. Whether or not you should bet, raise, fold all depends on many factors. Like everyone has stated: "it depends"
These are the things that will be covered in the previously posted forums and books. Learning when to raise, check and fold is too complex to be covered in a workbook. You learn as you play and read, and then play more. As lackutrol as stated you also want to mask your own play. You definetly don't want to always do the same thing in the similar situations.
posted by blister at 6:06 PM on August 17, 2006
Doyle Brunson's 'Super System' is generally regarded as the most influential poker book ever written - and is often touted at required reading by many top line players. There isn't too much by way of 'problem-solving' in the book - but for a good detailed analysis of the game.. you won't do better.
For problem solving and progressive lessons then I would highly recommend 'Ken Warren teaches Texas Hold'em'. Even though this book is written for LIMIT Hold'em, it is none the less invaluable for learning advanced topics like dominated hands, poker odds and player tells.
Good luck!
posted by TheOtherGuy at 7:26 PM on August 17, 2006
For problem solving and progressive lessons then I would highly recommend 'Ken Warren teaches Texas Hold'em'. Even though this book is written for LIMIT Hold'em, it is none the less invaluable for learning advanced topics like dominated hands, poker odds and player tells.
Good luck!
posted by TheOtherGuy at 7:26 PM on August 17, 2006
TheOtherGuy, if I recall, I was nearly laughed out of 2+2 when mentionning I had bought a Ken Warren book to start out. They're not reccomended.
Harrington on Hold'em, Theory of Poker, and probably the new NL book put out by Miller and Sklansky (mentionned above, NL Hold'em: Theory and Practice) should be a very good starting library indeed. Then Super System would be nice, not just for the NL chapter but also generally good advice on the other types of games.
But I'm far from a pro, so make your own calls by any means.
posted by splice at 2:02 AM on August 18, 2006
Harrington on Hold'em, Theory of Poker, and probably the new NL book put out by Miller and Sklansky (mentionned above, NL Hold'em: Theory and Practice) should be a very good starting library indeed. Then Super System would be nice, not just for the NL chapter but also generally good advice on the other types of games.
But I'm far from a pro, so make your own calls by any means.
posted by splice at 2:02 AM on August 18, 2006
Blister, upon review it seems that I replied way too quickly without really looking at your answer closely. Apologies.
posted by lackutrol at 6:03 AM on August 18, 2006
posted by lackutrol at 6:03 AM on August 18, 2006
Blister, upon review it seems that I replied way too quickly without really looking at your answer closely. Apologies.
No problem. My answer was far from complete, I was interrupted by a coworker. When I re-read my own answer, i believe it was appropriate for you to call me out. I should have explained myself better from the start. Although I enjoy being challenged in regards to poker strategies. It helps me consider my own techniques more. Hope to see you at the table some time!
posted by blister at 1:37 AM on August 19, 2006
No problem. My answer was far from complete, I was interrupted by a coworker. When I re-read my own answer, i believe it was appropriate for you to call me out. I should have explained myself better from the start. Although I enjoy being challenged in regards to poker strategies. It helps me consider my own techniques more. Hope to see you at the table some time!
posted by blister at 1:37 AM on August 19, 2006
Response by poster: I know this thread is dead, but for someone reading the archives, check this site out:
http://www.foldorraise.com/
It is very close to what I was asking for.
posted by andrewzipp at 9:49 AM on August 22, 2006
http://www.foldorraise.com/
It is very close to what I was asking for.
posted by andrewzipp at 9:49 AM on August 22, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
- The whole "Harrington on Hold'em" series, by Dan Harrington, former WSOP Main Event champion and 3 times at the final table. Amazon.com link
- Super System, by the 10-WSOP bracelet winner Doyle Brunson: Amazon.com link
- PokerTips.org has a comprehensive list of books and respective reviews: PokerTips
Daniel
posted by dcrocha at 8:35 AM on August 17, 2006