Are office pools legal?
May 22, 2006 12:51 PM Subscribe
I'm thinking of organizing an office pool on the World Cup. I'm based in VA. I'd probably set up something similar to what gets done with NCAA bracket pools. My question is though:
Is this illegal given US gambling laws?
Disregarding for a moment whether or not the office might have a problem with it (they have no problem with NCAA brackets), it seems like at least some states don't have problem providing the pool size is small, and whoever runs it doesn't make any money from organizing it. Is this a fair interpretation? Also, if it is illegal, how come ESPN etc can run their fantasy leagues without recourse - do they have licenses to do so?
I've found articles re. other states, but none specifically re. VA. Any help appreciated!!
Disregarding for a moment whether or not the office might have a problem with it (they have no problem with NCAA brackets), it seems like at least some states don't have problem providing the pool size is small, and whoever runs it doesn't make any money from organizing it. Is this a fair interpretation? Also, if it is illegal, how come ESPN etc can run their fantasy leagues without recourse - do they have licenses to do so?
I've found articles re. other states, but none specifically re. VA. Any help appreciated!!
It's as illegal as the NCAA pools are. Does that stop anybody? No. Go for it, but in order to minimize the exposure, do the majority of the planning/seeding/bracketing and whatnot on your own time.
I want the Dutch to win, but they'll just break my heart again, so I'll second Germany.
posted by pdb at 1:17 PM on May 22, 2006
I want the Dutch to win, but they'll just break my heart again, so I'll second Germany.
posted by pdb at 1:17 PM on May 22, 2006
My (completely not based on any law knowledge) understanding was that it's illegal to run a pool like that, but legal to participate. But, like frogan said, very very unenforced. Especially when it's not involving college athletes.
posted by inigo2 at 1:17 PM on May 22, 2006
posted by inigo2 at 1:17 PM on May 22, 2006
This PDF says they are legal in Virginia, as of March 2005.
posted by smackfu at 1:28 PM on May 22, 2006
More than a decade ago, Congress passed the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act (PASPA), which makes it illegal for a private person to operate a betting scheme based on competitive games in which professional or amateur athletes participate. . . . In states where office pools were legal before the passage of PASPA, such as Nevada, Virginia and Iowa, office pools are still legal.I can't find any other sources for the info though.
posted by smackfu at 1:28 PM on May 22, 2006
It seems to be a fuzzy issue in Virginia.
Virginia Code ยง 18.2-325 defines "Illegal gambling" as follows:
1. "Illegal gambling" means the making, placing or receipt, of any bet or wager in this Commonwealth of money or other thing of value, made in exchange for a chance to win a prize, stake or other consideration or thing of value, dependent upon the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance, whether such game, contest or event, occurs or is to occur inside or outside the limits of this Commonwealth.
The plain language of the statute suggests that your pool would be illegal. This article seems to think so, too.
But this bizarre press release from the Fairfax County, VA Police Department notes that "March Madness is synonymous with ... NCAA brackets and the office betting pool," and says that "[i]n Virginia, gambling is illegal when someone other than the gambler, such as a gambling operator, makes a profit." That suggests that if you do not make a profit it is not illegal.
Obviously, this does not conclusively answer your question, but hopefully it gives you a start.
[all lawyer disclaimers here]
posted by AgentRocket at 2:58 PM on May 22, 2006
Virginia Code ยง 18.2-325 defines "Illegal gambling" as follows:
1. "Illegal gambling" means the making, placing or receipt, of any bet or wager in this Commonwealth of money or other thing of value, made in exchange for a chance to win a prize, stake or other consideration or thing of value, dependent upon the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance, whether such game, contest or event, occurs or is to occur inside or outside the limits of this Commonwealth.
The plain language of the statute suggests that your pool would be illegal. This article seems to think so, too.
But this bizarre press release from the Fairfax County, VA Police Department notes that "March Madness is synonymous with ... NCAA brackets and the office betting pool," and says that "[i]n Virginia, gambling is illegal when someone other than the gambler, such as a gambling operator, makes a profit." That suggests that if you do not make a profit it is not illegal.
Obviously, this does not conclusively answer your question, but hopefully it gives you a start.
[all lawyer disclaimers here]
posted by AgentRocket at 2:58 PM on May 22, 2006
"Is this a fair interpretation? Also, if it is illegal, how come ESPN etc can run their fantasy leagues without recourse - do they have licenses to do so?"
Check out the Unlawful Internet Gambling Funding Prohibition Act (S.627, 108th Cong.), notably section 5361 (I)(E)(viii)(III).
As defined by this, betting or wagering does NOT include "any participation in a simulation sports game, an educational game, or a contest, that offers a prize or award to a participant that is established in advance of the game or contest and is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants."
As far as I can tell, ESPN's tournament pools fall into this category. I've never taken part in their paid fantasy sports though, so I don't know how exactly those work.
posted by sellout at 3:33 PM on May 22, 2006
Check out the Unlawful Internet Gambling Funding Prohibition Act (S.627, 108th Cong.), notably section 5361 (I)(E)(viii)(III).
As defined by this, betting or wagering does NOT include "any participation in a simulation sports game, an educational game, or a contest, that offers a prize or award to a participant that is established in advance of the game or contest and is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants."
As far as I can tell, ESPN's tournament pools fall into this category. I've never taken part in their paid fantasy sports though, so I don't know how exactly those work.
posted by sellout at 3:33 PM on May 22, 2006
I've bet on the last three or four WCs in office pool kind of arrangements. (The first time was in high school back in the old country; I forgot which one exactly...)
And your post reminded me that I've got to get something going at the office soon!
Usually, the modalities were something like this:
1) you bet on every single game, including Togo vs. Trinidad & Tobago;
2) the wager is, say, a buck per game, possibly more for second round and after;
3) if someone gets the result (i.e. win, loose, draw) of a game right, he gets the pool for that game only;
4) if noone gets the result right, the pool stays, accumulating to a jackpot,
5) if someone gets the exact score (e.g. 2:0) of the game right, he gets everything, including the accumulated jackpot,
6) if more than one person wins, the win is evenly divided.
What are your rules?
Also, I think this is legal, because there's no bank, and everything is done in good fun and by amateurs.
In any case, even if it's technically illegal, nobody will care. Unless, of course, you start an internet site called www.wcbets.com and pocket 10% of the wager.
posted by sour cream at 4:08 PM on May 22, 2006
And your post reminded me that I've got to get something going at the office soon!
Usually, the modalities were something like this:
1) you bet on every single game, including Togo vs. Trinidad & Tobago;
2) the wager is, say, a buck per game, possibly more for second round and after;
3) if someone gets the result (i.e. win, loose, draw) of a game right, he gets the pool for that game only;
4) if noone gets the result right, the pool stays, accumulating to a jackpot,
5) if someone gets the exact score (e.g. 2:0) of the game right, he gets everything, including the accumulated jackpot,
6) if more than one person wins, the win is evenly divided.
What are your rules?
Also, I think this is legal, because there's no bank, and everything is done in good fun and by amateurs.
In any case, even if it's technically illegal, nobody will care. Unless, of course, you start an internet site called www.wcbets.com and pocket 10% of the wager.
posted by sour cream at 4:08 PM on May 22, 2006
So it sounds like you could say.. "I'm running a contest where you have to use your skills to guess who will win the world cup. The prize is $1000. I expect 10 people to enter and the entrance fee is $100." No?
posted by wackybrit at 4:09 PM on May 22, 2006
posted by wackybrit at 4:09 PM on May 22, 2006
So it sounds like you could say.. "I'm running a contest where you have to use your skills to guess who will win the world cup. The prize is $1000. I expect 10 people to enter and the entrance fee is $100." No?
No, because choosing a bracket is not a test of skill in the same way as, say, poker (which is why you're more likely to find poker rooms than casinos with slot machines in non-Vegas non-Indian reservation settings). Despite a complete lack of knowledge of World Cup soccer, you could just fill out a bracket randomly and win it all. That's chance, not skill.
posted by frogan at 5:02 PM on May 22, 2006
No, because choosing a bracket is not a test of skill in the same way as, say, poker (which is why you're more likely to find poker rooms than casinos with slot machines in non-Vegas non-Indian reservation settings). Despite a complete lack of knowledge of World Cup soccer, you could just fill out a bracket randomly and win it all. That's chance, not skill.
posted by frogan at 5:02 PM on May 22, 2006
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I'm thinking you should take Germany to go all the way.
posted by frogan at 12:58 PM on May 22, 2006