How much should I pay this lad?
February 12, 2025 10:59 AM Subscribe
20-year old neighbor has zero work experience and is almost old enough to work with a local special-needs nonprofit to get subsidized work doing restaurant, landscaping, etc. work. He thinks he may have ADHD or similar condition; his Dad is going to get him tested soon.
He seems smart enough, but I have to teach him everything. I'm not great at managing people, so everything is slow and not that helpful at first; I'm figuring out the system as I'm teaching him, so it's difficult to tell if the "not much accomplished this time" problem is him or me -- but I'm pretty sure it's not all me.
Also, he keeps telling me his boundaries after I've crossed them (like, please don't converse while... or I have to stop now - while stuff is everywhere and he's only been working a short time).
I originally paid him what I thought was a slightly generous amount (and gave him a $2/hour raise during the first work session), then he got evasive and finally admitted the amount was upsetting to him and he wanted more. To be clear, I was definitely paying well above minimum wage (any variety of minimum wage), but he thought even the raised amount was below minimum wage... until I asked him to look it up. He found out I was right. He has almost no social skills, so he didn't apologize.
I need stuff done, and having him available is awesome. I cannot pay him what he wants given the quantity of "easy" work there is (sorting receipts, testing hard drives, etc.). Doing anything more advanced (woodworking) would take a lot of training. He doesn't want to do household chores, and he's not very physically agile -- it took him over 30 minutes to sweep leaves off the deck.
Any thought on what I should offer him? This is in zip code 27517. He lives with his parents, and I am hoping to give him some actual "job" experience -- but he won't commit to being her at a certain time/day of week --- maybe I can persuade him to, but OTOH I get it, that might be too much stress for me too.
When I asked what he liked to do, he just says "play video games". He doesn't drive; he does take long walks that go near a grocery store, but I don't think that translates into something useful. He does go to the local library often to use their computers, and his stepmom drives him I think.
When I asked him what he likes to do outside, he says "play video games." When I ask him what career interests him, he sayd "fly drones". I am not interested in those things...
He seems smart enough, but I have to teach him everything. I'm not great at managing people, so everything is slow and not that helpful at first; I'm figuring out the system as I'm teaching him, so it's difficult to tell if the "not much accomplished this time" problem is him or me -- but I'm pretty sure it's not all me.
Also, he keeps telling me his boundaries after I've crossed them (like, please don't converse while... or I have to stop now - while stuff is everywhere and he's only been working a short time).
I originally paid him what I thought was a slightly generous amount (and gave him a $2/hour raise during the first work session), then he got evasive and finally admitted the amount was upsetting to him and he wanted more. To be clear, I was definitely paying well above minimum wage (any variety of minimum wage), but he thought even the raised amount was below minimum wage... until I asked him to look it up. He found out I was right. He has almost no social skills, so he didn't apologize.
I need stuff done, and having him available is awesome. I cannot pay him what he wants given the quantity of "easy" work there is (sorting receipts, testing hard drives, etc.). Doing anything more advanced (woodworking) would take a lot of training. He doesn't want to do household chores, and he's not very physically agile -- it took him over 30 minutes to sweep leaves off the deck.
Any thought on what I should offer him? This is in zip code 27517. He lives with his parents, and I am hoping to give him some actual "job" experience -- but he won't commit to being her at a certain time/day of week --- maybe I can persuade him to, but OTOH I get it, that might be too much stress for me too.
When I asked what he liked to do, he just says "play video games". He doesn't drive; he does take long walks that go near a grocery store, but I don't think that translates into something useful. He does go to the local library often to use their computers, and his stepmom drives him I think.
When I asked him what he likes to do outside, he says "play video games." When I ask him what career interests him, he sayd "fly drones". I am not interested in those things...
At 20, this could be a life skills issue or adhd or some other combination of factors ( autism, mental health, other learning disabilities). No one can here can tell you.
For you
1. Decide if this is something you actually want to do. There are programs and resources to help young adults transistion into work, you don't have to do this on your own
2. Set clear boundries. You pay what you pay. If you need specific times, set specific times. Be clear with expectations and expect that person to meet them. You don't have to fire the person if they don't show, but if you want work done from 10am to noon you let him know that and don't let them do the work from 2pm to 4pm when they are good and ready. It is important that his confusion doesn't trip you up.
3. What is the end goal for you? Is it to help someone out? Is it to get some tasks done? Knowing this will help you communicate the end of the working relationship to him and to yourself.
4. It is nice to be kind and be flexible, but remember that most work isn't going to be that way. With this person you will need to be clear that this is an abnormal working situation and that most employers are not going to have this type of flexibility.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:30 AM on February 12 [13 favorites]
For you
1. Decide if this is something you actually want to do. There are programs and resources to help young adults transistion into work, you don't have to do this on your own
2. Set clear boundries. You pay what you pay. If you need specific times, set specific times. Be clear with expectations and expect that person to meet them. You don't have to fire the person if they don't show, but if you want work done from 10am to noon you let him know that and don't let them do the work from 2pm to 4pm when they are good and ready. It is important that his confusion doesn't trip you up.
3. What is the end goal for you? Is it to help someone out? Is it to get some tasks done? Knowing this will help you communicate the end of the working relationship to him and to yourself.
4. It is nice to be kind and be flexible, but remember that most work isn't going to be that way. With this person you will need to be clear that this is an abnormal working situation and that most employers are not going to have this type of flexibility.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:30 AM on February 12 [13 favorites]
Does he WANT job experience?
If he does, if he has sought you out and asked you to help him this regard, then I think the most helpful thing you can do is teach him some things about how to be an employed person. Setting aside independent contractor stuff that clearly doesn't apply here, this frequently includes committing to a set schedule and understanding what is market pay for the work. Depending on your bandwidth, you can start him small, get used to making and keeping a commitment of one or two particular shifts per week.
But, if he doesn't want job experience, if he hasn't sought you out to provide him this guidance, then I would do nothing. The non-profit will teach him much of this stuff, right, and perhaps more persuasively. A lot of this is stuff that is part of parenting, and so without parental authority you have limited ways of handling it.
I love "if/then" or "when/then" statements, like "When you work on Tuesday from 2pm-5pm and on Thursday from 10am-2pm then I will pay you $__ per hour to complete the following tasks: _____"
This assumes that (a) the days/times are within what you know to be his general availability; like he's not at school or something. Whether or not he wants to cut down the video game time to make himself available is a decision for him. Also (b) you have a specific list of tasks that you consider, using generous assumptions, are do-able by him within that time frame. It is valid job experience and skills teaching for you to present that as a take it or leave it, not in a harsh way, but as a learning opportunity. It is a job offer; here's what the work is, when you need to do it, and what it pays. If he doesn't want to do it, okay. Maybe you'll call him another time if you have another project.
Your question is what you should pay him and I haven't really answered that but, as of right now, the way things stand, nothing. He does not seem to want an employment relationship, he is not performing the jobs you need done, and he wants money that is out of proportion to the work. IMO, you are doing him no favors by giving him money out of proportion to the work.
Example - My neighbor is paying my 11 year old an absolutely insane $50 per week to take her single trash can down a regular-length driveway, and then bring it up. This is a total of about 15 mins. per week. She wanted to pay MORE than this, and I begged her to pay less than this. It is messing with his sense of what reasonable pay for work is. He does not want to do the tasks I would otherwise pay him because they are harder work for less money. If you continue to overpay your neighbor, IMO he is going to have a harder time going out and working in a restaurant or other more formal work.
posted by fennario at 11:32 AM on February 12 [20 favorites]
If he does, if he has sought you out and asked you to help him this regard, then I think the most helpful thing you can do is teach him some things about how to be an employed person. Setting aside independent contractor stuff that clearly doesn't apply here, this frequently includes committing to a set schedule and understanding what is market pay for the work. Depending on your bandwidth, you can start him small, get used to making and keeping a commitment of one or two particular shifts per week.
But, if he doesn't want job experience, if he hasn't sought you out to provide him this guidance, then I would do nothing. The non-profit will teach him much of this stuff, right, and perhaps more persuasively. A lot of this is stuff that is part of parenting, and so without parental authority you have limited ways of handling it.
I love "if/then" or "when/then" statements, like "When you work on Tuesday from 2pm-5pm and on Thursday from 10am-2pm then I will pay you $__ per hour to complete the following tasks: _____"
This assumes that (a) the days/times are within what you know to be his general availability; like he's not at school or something. Whether or not he wants to cut down the video game time to make himself available is a decision for him. Also (b) you have a specific list of tasks that you consider, using generous assumptions, are do-able by him within that time frame. It is valid job experience and skills teaching for you to present that as a take it or leave it, not in a harsh way, but as a learning opportunity. It is a job offer; here's what the work is, when you need to do it, and what it pays. If he doesn't want to do it, okay. Maybe you'll call him another time if you have another project.
Your question is what you should pay him and I haven't really answered that but, as of right now, the way things stand, nothing. He does not seem to want an employment relationship, he is not performing the jobs you need done, and he wants money that is out of proportion to the work. IMO, you are doing him no favors by giving him money out of proportion to the work.
Example - My neighbor is paying my 11 year old an absolutely insane $50 per week to take her single trash can down a regular-length driveway, and then bring it up. This is a total of about 15 mins. per week. She wanted to pay MORE than this, and I begged her to pay less than this. It is messing with his sense of what reasonable pay for work is. He does not want to do the tasks I would otherwise pay him because they are harder work for less money. If you continue to overpay your neighbor, IMO he is going to have a harder time going out and working in a restaurant or other more formal work.
posted by fennario at 11:32 AM on February 12 [20 favorites]
Minimum wage is so extremely low in most of the US that I wouldn't use that as a fair gauge of anything. I tend to use the local Target cashier wage as my benchmark for a more realistic minimum wage. It's an entry level job that requires only the most basic of skills, and they're always hiring pretty much everywhere, so it's an easy place to look for a comparison (and it's an easy place for someone you're employing to look for an alternative). In your area, that rate is currently $15.00/hr. For those that live in an area without a Target, Walmart would give you a similar number. And if you want to move up the scale a bit, MIT publishes extensive data on local living wages.
Regarding the US federal minimum wage: it's been at $7.25 since June 2009. If it had merely kept up with inflation, it would be $10.69 right now. Meanwhile, MIT research indicates that, in your area, the minimum wage is not even enough to qualify for a poverty wage ($7.52) at the moment. A living wage in your area would be closer to $24.87. I'm not saying you necessarily need to pay a living wage to a young person in his first job, but it's worth being aware that the minimum wage should not be used as a reasonable benchmark for anyone.
posted by ourobouros at 12:19 PM on February 12 [8 favorites]
Regarding the US federal minimum wage: it's been at $7.25 since June 2009. If it had merely kept up with inflation, it would be $10.69 right now. Meanwhile, MIT research indicates that, in your area, the minimum wage is not even enough to qualify for a poverty wage ($7.52) at the moment. A living wage in your area would be closer to $24.87. I'm not saying you necessarily need to pay a living wage to a young person in his first job, but it's worth being aware that the minimum wage should not be used as a reasonable benchmark for anyone.
posted by ourobouros at 12:19 PM on February 12 [8 favorites]
Agreed with those above that if he was job experience, he really needs to understand the concept of Having A Job as it is defined for most people. As in, show up at a certain time and place, be there for an approximate amount of time doing things you're asked to do, and accept the amount of money you negotiated (for a while) instead of immediately demanding more. Getting him used to these general concepts now will save him a very cold, hard lesson later.
And as much as you feel it's appropriate and warranted, I'd agree that teaching him about the soft skills is important as well. I once worked with someone who refused to make eye contact or sometimes even engage at all with people that were talking to him, asking him questions, etc. The complaints piled up until I sat down with him (as his manager) and explained that when people asked him questions about his project in a meeting, he needed to acknowledge them and hopefully learn to engage in an appropriate way. He later told me he had a personality disorder but refused to specify further. Unfortunately his inability to understand these basic social behaviors, etc cost him in terms of not being asked onto higher-profile projects.
Lastly I think the flat rate is a good idea also because it will hopefully get him to do the math and see that a task can either be $40 for two hours of work, or $40 for eight hours. How that shakes out is totally up to him.
posted by Molasses808 at 12:45 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
And as much as you feel it's appropriate and warranted, I'd agree that teaching him about the soft skills is important as well. I once worked with someone who refused to make eye contact or sometimes even engage at all with people that were talking to him, asking him questions, etc. The complaints piled up until I sat down with him (as his manager) and explained that when people asked him questions about his project in a meeting, he needed to acknowledge them and hopefully learn to engage in an appropriate way. He later told me he had a personality disorder but refused to specify further. Unfortunately his inability to understand these basic social behaviors, etc cost him in terms of not being asked onto higher-profile projects.
Lastly I think the flat rate is a good idea also because it will hopefully get him to do the math and see that a task can either be $40 for two hours of work, or $40 for eight hours. How that shakes out is totally up to him.
posted by Molasses808 at 12:45 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
I think I'd be inclined to combine the advice about using the local Target cashier wage (or maybe the rate local fast food restaurants like McDonald's are offering) and the advice about paying a flat rate per task. For each task, you could estimate how much time it should take a reasonably competent and motivated person, including time spent being taught how to do the work, and multiply by your guiding hourly rate to arrive at a flat fee. If you think most people his age could do a particular task in 3 hours with half an hour of instruction and $15/hr is your guiding wage, then the flat rate for that job would be $52.50. Probably you'd round that up or down to $55 or $50, depending on how generous you thought your estimate was. If it was going to be a repeating job but you thought instruction would only be needed the first time, I'd round down.
posted by Redstart at 12:46 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 12:46 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi - I meant, what do you think would be a fair wage given the circumstances.
I am fine setting expectations and boundaries. I do not know what is fair given a) I do think he has life skills and/or some neurodivergence, and b) I have to set the rules and boundaries, and he can't tell me what's fair, so I'm asking you.
posted by amtho at 12:47 PM on February 12
I am fine setting expectations and boundaries. I do not know what is fair given a) I do think he has life skills and/or some neurodivergence, and b) I have to set the rules and boundaries, and he can't tell me what's fair, so I'm asking you.
posted by amtho at 12:47 PM on February 12
It's kind of you to help this kid catch up on some life skills that apparently he's not getting elsewhere, but he does have to actually want or need a job. Right now, it sounds like you're trying to convince him to want a job (for very well-meaning reasons on your part!) and he's willing to go along with your apparent desire for him to work for you--if you pay him enough to try to summon the will to care about this work situation that you want more than he does.
posted by desuetude at 12:47 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 12:47 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I don't really know how much the going flat rate is for sorting receipts, sweeping a deck, testing hard drives, etc. I'd prefer not to have to post an AskMe question each time.
posted by amtho at 12:48 PM on February 12
posted by amtho at 12:48 PM on February 12
Response by poster: No, he actually does want to work/have a job. He approached me about it, he just doesn't know how things should work, I think. Don't worry about that part. Just tell me how much is fair to pay him. I heard about Target/Walmart thing, but:
- Those are very defined jobs and training would be once and done
- They also aren't what I would want as my personal standard for "good employer"
posted by amtho at 12:50 PM on February 12
- Those are very defined jobs and training would be once and done
- They also aren't what I would want as my personal standard for "good employer"
posted by amtho at 12:50 PM on February 12
Pay a flat rate that varies based on the work performed, and pay when the job is completed. You can just make a rate up, truly. If he doesn’t think that the rate you’ve suggested is fair, he can decline to do the work or counterpropose. If you don’t like his counterproposal, you can find someone else to do that specific task. A “fair” wage is one that both parties agree is fair given their respective situations.
If he starts a job and a legitimate change in circumstances means that it’s way more work than either of you thought it would be—like he agrees to come sweep leaves off your porch on Saturday, and Friday night there’s a huge windstorm and now there’s 3x as many leaves—then renegotiate at that point. But otherwise: make a proposal; let him make a counter proposal; and then go from there.
Looking at my front and back porches, I’d give a neighbor kid $10 to sweep ‘em off if I couldn’t. Your porch might be bigger than mine, so it’s hard to give a concrete number.
posted by moosetracks at 12:54 PM on February 12 [6 favorites]
If he starts a job and a legitimate change in circumstances means that it’s way more work than either of you thought it would be—like he agrees to come sweep leaves off your porch on Saturday, and Friday night there’s a huge windstorm and now there’s 3x as many leaves—then renegotiate at that point. But otherwise: make a proposal; let him make a counter proposal; and then go from there.
Looking at my front and back porches, I’d give a neighbor kid $10 to sweep ‘em off if I couldn’t. Your porch might be bigger than mine, so it’s hard to give a concrete number.
posted by moosetracks at 12:54 PM on February 12 [6 favorites]
I was definitely paying well above minimum wage (any variety of minimum wage)
OP can correct me, but I took this to mean that they are thinking about minimum wage nationally, not just the low rate in NC. Personally, for tasks like what you describe, I think paying a bit less than your local Target is OK - he is of course free to turn it down. But generally I feel like doing work for neighbors is a form of mutual favor - one person gets some extra income without having to commute or have the cons of formal work (i.e. mean boss, dress code, etc.), the other person gets a slight deal. But I think you might just need to accept that this might not be a great fit - if you budget that a job should take 3 hrs and pay him $40 to do it, but it actually takes him 6 hrs, then yeah, he probably won't be happy with how that hourly rate shakes out.
posted by coffeecat at 12:54 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
OP can correct me, but I took this to mean that they are thinking about minimum wage nationally, not just the low rate in NC. Personally, for tasks like what you describe, I think paying a bit less than your local Target is OK - he is of course free to turn it down. But generally I feel like doing work for neighbors is a form of mutual favor - one person gets some extra income without having to commute or have the cons of formal work (i.e. mean boss, dress code, etc.), the other person gets a slight deal. But I think you might just need to accept that this might not be a great fit - if you budget that a job should take 3 hrs and pay him $40 to do it, but it actually takes him 6 hrs, then yeah, he probably won't be happy with how that hourly rate shakes out.
posted by coffeecat at 12:54 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
Re: setting your flat rates, could you check TaskRabbit, Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace to see what the going rate is for various tasks in your area (or similar areas)?
I get your desire to do better for him than Target or Walmart would, but you might consider that if he wants to work an entry-level retail/service job someday, paying him much more for your tasks now will erode his ability to motivate himself and feel satisfied in those jobs in the future.
posted by Bardolph at 1:04 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
I get your desire to do better for him than Target or Walmart would, but you might consider that if he wants to work an entry-level retail/service job someday, paying him much more for your tasks now will erode his ability to motivate himself and feel satisfied in those jobs in the future.
posted by Bardolph at 1:04 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
This really depends on the job. There is no flat rate for all jobs. If I'm paying a neighbor kid to sweep my porch, I'd likely give them $20 to get it done. Sorting receipts (?) seems more complicated and I probably wouldn't get a neighbor kid to do that. I would expect to pay by the hour for that sort of work and being me, I'd probably pay $20 an hour. I would pay a neighbor kid $50 to mow my whole yard if there were any around (as it is we ended up with a landscaping service and I had to bargain them down to $100, grumble, small yard.) I will say that if you are paying by the task rather than the hour you do need to be prepared to say, no, this task is not complete and then deal with the pushback.
I am a little confused about what you're asking, to be honest. Do you have tasks you need done that you are hiring him for? Or are you creating tasks for him? I wouldn't do that, myself, unless you're very close to the family and then I'd talk to his parents.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:05 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
I am a little confused about what you're asking, to be honest. Do you have tasks you need done that you are hiring him for? Or are you creating tasks for him? I wouldn't do that, myself, unless you're very close to the family and then I'd talk to his parents.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:05 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
I don't really know how much the going flat rate is for sorting receipts, sweeping a deck, testing hard drives, etc. I'd prefer not to have to post an AskMe question each time.
See my answer above for an approach to coming up with a flat rate.
If it's the type of work that doesn't have a defined end point, like you always have more receipts to sort or more hard drives to test, I'd try to come up with a way to break the work into units and pay a flat rate per unit. You could find a box that would hold a reasonable number of receipts and give him a box at a time to work on. If you think a typical reasonably competent, motivated 20 year old could sort that amount in an hour, then make the rate $15 per box. (If $15/hr is your guiding rate.) If testing hard drives doesn't take a consistent amount of time per hard drive, you could estimate the average amount of time it should take per drive and use that to set a per-drive flat rate.
posted by Redstart at 1:09 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
See my answer above for an approach to coming up with a flat rate.
If it's the type of work that doesn't have a defined end point, like you always have more receipts to sort or more hard drives to test, I'd try to come up with a way to break the work into units and pay a flat rate per unit. You could find a box that would hold a reasonable number of receipts and give him a box at a time to work on. If you think a typical reasonably competent, motivated 20 year old could sort that amount in an hour, then make the rate $15 per box. (If $15/hr is your guiding rate.) If testing hard drives doesn't take a consistent amount of time per hard drive, you could estimate the average amount of time it should take per drive and use that to set a per-drive flat rate.
posted by Redstart at 1:09 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
This is work training, not skilled work. $12? $15? It's not much but he isn't providing much value.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:23 PM on February 12 [7 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 1:23 PM on February 12 [7 favorites]
I think 20 an hour is fair. Low-wage workers have seen the larger gains over the past few years than other earners.
One caveat is that this seems like you are partly giving him a job and partly hanging out with him? I think you should pay him from when he shows up to when you can tell him he can leave and make this clear with him. Separating work and other stuff will make it less likely he feels ripped off or stays after to pad his working hours.
posted by hermanubis at 1:33 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
One caveat is that this seems like you are partly giving him a job and partly hanging out with him? I think you should pay him from when he shows up to when you can tell him he can leave and make this clear with him. Separating work and other stuff will make it less likely he feels ripped off or stays after to pad his working hours.
posted by hermanubis at 1:33 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
This will sound harsh, but around here (a European welfare state), someone who is unemployable due to disabilities is / can be paid less than minimum wage. This allows businesses to offer them jobs in a mutually-beneficial way. The shortfall in income is made up by the government (remember, welfare state), which also pays for a coach to help the employee find their way. (This kind of thing is intended to last for half a year or so. If successful, the employee has proven to be employable after all, and now has work experience to leverage into a 'regular' job.)
In that light, since you're also taking on some of that coaching role, it would seem fair to me to offer him less than you would pay a regular contractor.
On the other hand, if he doesn't have that kind of financial safety net (either from government or parents), that would not be a good deal for him and he shouldn't accept it.
Given the circumstances, would it be an option to involve his parents in the discussion? They might be able to help him see what's in it for both of you.
I mean, in a way it's good that he didn't simply trust that you were paying him a fair wage - less scrupulous people would take advantage of that. If he's close enough to his parents that they're involved in getting him a diagnosis, he may be open to this as well.
posted by demi-octopus at 1:34 PM on February 12
In that light, since you're also taking on some of that coaching role, it would seem fair to me to offer him less than you would pay a regular contractor.
On the other hand, if he doesn't have that kind of financial safety net (either from government or parents), that would not be a good deal for him and he shouldn't accept it.
Given the circumstances, would it be an option to involve his parents in the discussion? They might be able to help him see what's in it for both of you.
I mean, in a way it's good that he didn't simply trust that you were paying him a fair wage - less scrupulous people would take advantage of that. If he's close enough to his parents that they're involved in getting him a diagnosis, he may be open to this as well.
posted by demi-octopus at 1:34 PM on February 12
I work part time as a Life Coach for adults with developmental disabilities helping them with their jobs, recreation, etc. . All of our clients work in some fashion or another. I do not know of an instance where they make more than California minimum wage. Given the quality of their work that is a suitable wage. It may be that our clients are more severely disabled than the gentleman you are helping. Good for you for making the effort!
posted by jcworth at 1:59 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
posted by jcworth at 1:59 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
Offering someone a flat rate for a specific job when you treat them as an employee sounds legally iffy to me. In this situation he might not be defined as an employee, but you do want to make sure you're doing this all legally, so get familiar with what makes someone like this an employee and what doesn't, both federally and in your state.
he won't commit to being her at a certain time/day of week
Setting your own work hours is often one of the things that differentiates employees and contractors.
posted by soelo at 2:24 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
he won't commit to being her at a certain time/day of week
Setting your own work hours is often one of the things that differentiates employees and contractors.
posted by soelo at 2:24 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: jcworth - Do any of your clients have normal intelligence?
Anyone: please give me numbers for type of work. Assume normal intelligence but "somewhat of a pain" and also assume I will be totally inclined to give him a raise ASAP.
Also assume that I need to not lose money on this whole thing (but that I can come up with how to do math myself). You'll say "figure out the time spent and your hourly rate" just assume I don't know any of that.
How about: if YOU were going to hire this person to sort and data-entry receipts, or sort / organize photographs, how much would YOU pay him? Assume you are a nice person but have limited time and patience and non-infinite money.
Alternatively, come up with jobs you might actually need done and say how much you would pay per job or per hour?
Thank you - I am really without data or experience here, and also without time to do complex figuring out :)
posted by amtho at 2:36 PM on February 12
Anyone: please give me numbers for type of work. Assume normal intelligence but "somewhat of a pain" and also assume I will be totally inclined to give him a raise ASAP.
Also assume that I need to not lose money on this whole thing (but that I can come up with how to do math myself). You'll say "figure out the time spent and your hourly rate" just assume I don't know any of that.
How about: if YOU were going to hire this person to sort and data-entry receipts, or sort / organize photographs, how much would YOU pay him? Assume you are a nice person but have limited time and patience and non-infinite money.
Alternatively, come up with jobs you might actually need done and say how much you would pay per job or per hour?
Thank you - I am really without data or experience here, and also without time to do complex figuring out :)
posted by amtho at 2:36 PM on February 12
Response by poster: Also - if there are example org/employer contracts, checklists, statements of expectation, whatever - I'm super into that.
posted by amtho at 2:37 PM on February 12
posted by amtho at 2:37 PM on February 12
if YOU were going to hire this person to sort and data-entry receipts, or sort / organize photographs
$17 an hour is what I'd pay in a relatively low cost of living area.
If it's a new task and it takes him a while to learn, that's a normal part of hiring someone that you have to account for. You can set expectations for him to improve, but you also have to be willing to say "I will stop employing you if you don't meet x standards." You may not be willing to do that because it's more convenient to you to have him do things badly/slowly than to not at all--that's how labor demand works. So at that point it's deciding whether your desire to help and desire to get some stuff done that you don't have to do yourself is worth the cost you're paying.
If you have more tasks that need to be done than you can afford to pay him at that rate, you tell him how many hours you can offer and accept that you can't afford to pay someone to do the rest of the tasks. If it's a matter of "well he just doesn't get enough done in an hour to be worth the money" then you see the previous paragraph.
posted by brook horse at 3:21 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
$17 an hour is what I'd pay in a relatively low cost of living area.
If it's a new task and it takes him a while to learn, that's a normal part of hiring someone that you have to account for. You can set expectations for him to improve, but you also have to be willing to say "I will stop employing you if you don't meet x standards." You may not be willing to do that because it's more convenient to you to have him do things badly/slowly than to not at all--that's how labor demand works. So at that point it's deciding whether your desire to help and desire to get some stuff done that you don't have to do yourself is worth the cost you're paying.
If you have more tasks that need to be done than you can afford to pay him at that rate, you tell him how many hours you can offer and accept that you can't afford to pay someone to do the rest of the tasks. If it's a matter of "well he just doesn't get enough done in an hour to be worth the money" then you see the previous paragraph.
posted by brook horse at 3:21 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
(please never ever tell a young person who already is socially marginalized that you need an apology for "things like that because that is what is done in our society." You could say "I'd appreciate an apology because" (although why exactly? Because you were right and he was wrong about minimum wage and he didn't make a show of that? I'd be a tiny bit irritated too but then honesty most people would just let that go without an apology.) FWIW this guys is also in "our society" just as much as is OP and he doesn't need it to be implied that he's an alien. Plus.. got to say even socially confident neurotypical 20 year olds seem very allergic to apologies or ingratiating manners these days.)
posted by ponie at 3:37 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
posted by ponie at 3:37 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
I say between 12 to 14 bucks an hour.
I guess you could be generous and pay more but part of this exercise is to get him to learn about life.
If you want to be super generous, maybe put it that portion aside and when he leaves it can be a bonus?
It doesn't seem like he could survive a retail job at this point, but when he hopefully moves on to other employment, he will potentially be very surprised by taxes, minimum wage, sick days, etc.. Keep that in mind as you work with him.
posted by rhonzo at 3:43 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
I guess you could be generous and pay more but part of this exercise is to get him to learn about life.
If you want to be super generous, maybe put it that portion aside and when he leaves it can be a bonus?
It doesn't seem like he could survive a retail job at this point, but when he hopefully moves on to other employment, he will potentially be very surprised by taxes, minimum wage, sick days, etc.. Keep that in mind as you work with him.
posted by rhonzo at 3:43 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
I need stuff done, and having him available is awesome.
I would turn this situation on it's head and say you are hiring a very specialized worker with a very specific kind of availability and flexibility that is not easy to find otherwise. I assume you will not be providing a guaranteed 40 hours of work per week or benefits of any kind, so something like minimum wage is not really the right starting point in ths case. I think you should be paying a premium for this kid.
Do your best to estimate the amount of work involved, in terms of total hours, and then pay a flat rate of $20 x total hours.
posted by grog at 3:49 PM on February 12
I would turn this situation on it's head and say you are hiring a very specialized worker with a very specific kind of availability and flexibility that is not easy to find otherwise. I assume you will not be providing a guaranteed 40 hours of work per week or benefits of any kind, so something like minimum wage is not really the right starting point in ths case. I think you should be paying a premium for this kid.
Do your best to estimate the amount of work involved, in terms of total hours, and then pay a flat rate of $20 x total hours.
posted by grog at 3:49 PM on February 12
Also, just because someone finds their salary upsetting absolutely does not mean you should raise it - even if you're trying to be nice. You seem like a very empathic and concerned neighbor so it's very lucky for your own peace of mind that you don't have to worry at all that your salary limit impacts his overall security, since he is not expected to support himself.
Look, you don't give raises to anyone because they happen to have some ideas about it, and THIS kid is particularly not worldly. So you really, really do not have to spend a minute more thinking about giving him any more than you are now. He's possibly upset by a lot of things that don't match his ideas of how they should be, maybe even that he can't play video games whenever he wants to. That doesn't mean the world is supposed to conform to his expectations. You should not raise the salary again unless there is a real reason to based on his work improving a whole lot.
posted by ponie at 3:51 PM on February 12 [5 favorites]
Look, you don't give raises to anyone because they happen to have some ideas about it, and THIS kid is particularly not worldly. So you really, really do not have to spend a minute more thinking about giving him any more than you are now. He's possibly upset by a lot of things that don't match his ideas of how they should be, maybe even that he can't play video games whenever he wants to. That doesn't mean the world is supposed to conform to his expectations. You should not raise the salary again unless there is a real reason to based on his work improving a whole lot.
posted by ponie at 3:51 PM on February 12 [5 favorites]
To give you a specific answer:
For photo sorting, I’d pay minimum wage at the amount of hours it would take me to do it. That is minimum effort, no physical risk, etc. I’d probably round up a little just because I liked the kid, but not much.
For data entry, I’d pay a couple bucks above minimum wage at the amount of hours it would take me to do it.
Again, in both circumstances, I would offer a flat rate, and I would be receptive to counter-proposals if he disagrees either about how long it’ll take or what the job is worth.
That’s about as good an answer as anyone online can give you, because the job description is vague (how many photos? What does sorting them mean? Etc.). Beyond that, you’re going to have to just pick a number, offer it to him, and engage in a negotiation if he doesn’t like it.
(The issues you describe with him do not seem to extend to issues that would affect his ability to negotiate, and indeed he’s already shown a willingness/capacity to do that. I would, of course, feel very differently if he were not capable of meaningfully negotiating with you).
posted by moosetracks at 4:07 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
For photo sorting, I’d pay minimum wage at the amount of hours it would take me to do it. That is minimum effort, no physical risk, etc. I’d probably round up a little just because I liked the kid, but not much.
For data entry, I’d pay a couple bucks above minimum wage at the amount of hours it would take me to do it.
Again, in both circumstances, I would offer a flat rate, and I would be receptive to counter-proposals if he disagrees either about how long it’ll take or what the job is worth.
That’s about as good an answer as anyone online can give you, because the job description is vague (how many photos? What does sorting them mean? Etc.). Beyond that, you’re going to have to just pick a number, offer it to him, and engage in a negotiation if he doesn’t like it.
(The issues you describe with him do not seem to extend to issues that would affect his ability to negotiate, and indeed he’s already shown a willingness/capacity to do that. I would, of course, feel very differently if he were not capable of meaningfully negotiating with you).
posted by moosetracks at 4:07 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
My number would be a max of $10 an hour under these specific purposes. If the person said they didn't want to do the work for that wage I would not be offended. The offering takes into account that I would be doing a lot of emotional labor, teaching, and supervising for a person who didn't want to do the bare minimum of committing to work at certain days/times. I would only do the $10 at all if they were a relative or a friend's kid.
posted by fennario at 4:21 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
posted by fennario at 4:21 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]
I would not view this as "I am an employer" I would view this as "I'm doing a favor for my friend by teaching their kid about being employed and giving kid pocket money." I would not personally worry about any legal risk, any more than my neighbor should worry about paying my kid to take out the trash. Am a lawyer but not your lawyer and just telling you what I personally would do, not what you should do.
posted by fennario at 4:24 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
posted by fennario at 4:24 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]
jcworth - Do any of your clients have normal intelligence?
I think the term you're looking for is average intelligence, not normal intelligence. "Normal" intelligence can be considered a bit offensive.
Regardless I help disabled teens get jobs. Often the nature of their disabilities means that their work may be done more slowly that others, so for that reason it can be unfair to charge for the job, not the hour.
A completely reasonable wage is $20/hour; that's what most of my students make. They don't get penalized because they're disabled and I think that may be a discriminatory practice.
Anyway, my students can sort photos, move garbage cans, wash cars, clean indoors and outdoors, collect or deliver mail, sweep and vacuum, clean a kitchen, pet sitting, dog walking, sort records and CDs, change lightbulbs, laundry, etc.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:27 PM on February 12 [8 favorites]
I think the term you're looking for is average intelligence, not normal intelligence. "Normal" intelligence can be considered a bit offensive.
Regardless I help disabled teens get jobs. Often the nature of their disabilities means that their work may be done more slowly that others, so for that reason it can be unfair to charge for the job, not the hour.
A completely reasonable wage is $20/hour; that's what most of my students make. They don't get penalized because they're disabled and I think that may be a discriminatory practice.
Anyway, my students can sort photos, move garbage cans, wash cars, clean indoors and outdoors, collect or deliver mail, sweep and vacuum, clean a kitchen, pet sitting, dog walking, sort records and CDs, change lightbulbs, laundry, etc.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:27 PM on February 12 [8 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed at poster's request.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:30 PM on February 12
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:30 PM on February 12
US states also have special minimum wages for people with disabilities, and sometimes those special minimums are unfairly applied to disabled people whose disabilities don’t impact their actual work performance. But with respect to people whose disabilities do impact their work performance, as demi-octopus describes, they usually have help from a social worker type person called a supported employment coach. So, that’s like some of the folks you’ll meet bagging groceries or cleaning at the fast food restaurant. I don’t know what are the parameters for qualifying for supported employment, but surely somebody has already done a lot of this legwork. You might see about consulting with a supported employment coach, like at your local ARC or adult day training center. You haven’t said if this young person expects to live independently at some point or no. But the ARC or the APD for your state might be a good place to start.
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:51 PM on February 12
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:51 PM on February 12
I think what's confusing a lot of people here is that if someone declined to specify when they'd turn up, was "somewhat of a pain", and needed supervision to do the tasks, the answer to 'what I'd pay them' - for me, at least - is "zero, and probably not even then".
If you want a number, we can all pick one out of the air, but theoretically wages are based on the value of the service to the employer, minus a surplus captured by the capital-owner. So - can you just estimate that? If you imagine a homunculus doing these tasks while you slept, what's the price at which you're 50-50 on "actually, I'll do it myself"?
posted by wattle at 6:02 PM on February 12 [5 favorites]
If you want a number, we can all pick one out of the air, but theoretically wages are based on the value of the service to the employer, minus a surplus captured by the capital-owner. So - can you just estimate that? If you imagine a homunculus doing these tasks while you slept, what's the price at which you're 50-50 on "actually, I'll do it myself"?
posted by wattle at 6:02 PM on February 12 [5 favorites]
OMG if this kid has not presented formally with an actual disability and does not EVEN HAVE A DIAGNOSIS then it is not on you to worry about being discriminatory for paying per job instead of per hour because ,,,he takes a long time to work and thinks maybe he has ADHD. (you could suggest he get tested if he brings it up again though it could make his life a ot better to get proper treatment for it if he does)
posted by ponie at 6:16 PM on February 12
posted by ponie at 6:16 PM on February 12
Response by poster: Dudes and dudettes and kerkin, I am not asking because I am worried about legal implications or what a competitive wage would be or anything other than behaving generally ethically to myself and him. All the non-ethical stuff I can look up anywhere :) I come here for _you_.
Thanks (sorry about the word "normal" - please understand that my in-a-hurry and almost useless with fatigue vocabulary is very different from my this-is-what-I-believe vocabulary)
posted by amtho at 7:32 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
Thanks (sorry about the word "normal" - please understand that my in-a-hurry and almost useless with fatigue vocabulary is very different from my this-is-what-I-believe vocabulary)
posted by amtho at 7:32 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]
$17-20/hr. You are paying a person for their time and making an investment in their capacity to do things you want them to do, which may (or may not) have the side effect of developing their capacity to do things they want to do.
If this person cannot meet the goals that you set for them, it’s equally likely that you are not the right fit as a “manager” as it for them to be a bad fit as a worker for you. In either case, it does not decrease the value of a person‘s time.
Source: I am an HR manager for an organization that employs both people with disabilities and people who do not have disabilities. Our pay rates are based on the jobs we hire people to do, not whether they have a disability.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:22 PM on February 12
If this person cannot meet the goals that you set for them, it’s equally likely that you are not the right fit as a “manager” as it for them to be a bad fit as a worker for you. In either case, it does not decrease the value of a person‘s time.
Source: I am an HR manager for an organization that employs both people with disabilities and people who do not have disabilities. Our pay rates are based on the jobs we hire people to do, not whether they have a disability.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:22 PM on February 12
Response by poster: Since my organization doesn't have a formalized hiring process with established pay tiers, unfortunately I don't have that data to fall back on.
Oh, I know the problem is me as a manager: " I'm figuring out the system as I'm teaching him, so it's difficult to tell if the "not much accomplished this time" problem is him or me"
Thanks
posted by amtho at 9:55 PM on February 12
Oh, I know the problem is me as a manager: " I'm figuring out the system as I'm teaching him, so it's difficult to tell if the "not much accomplished this time" problem is him or me"
Thanks
posted by amtho at 9:55 PM on February 12
Response by poster: I hope all managers reach out for information and are aware when they lack it.
posted by amtho at 9:56 PM on February 12
posted by amtho at 9:56 PM on February 12
but he thought even the raised amount was below minimum wage... until I asked him to look it up
Minimum wage + 15% for what you are describing. Taskrabbit/ Craigslist/ etc. casual jobs are by definition not regular. If you are offering regular work, that's value in itself. If you're only offering irregular work, then maybe minimum wage X 1.5 - 2, depending.
posted by porpoise at 10:55 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
Minimum wage + 15% for what you are describing. Taskrabbit/ Craigslist/ etc. casual jobs are by definition not regular. If you are offering regular work, that's value in itself. If you're only offering irregular work, then maybe minimum wage X 1.5 - 2, depending.
posted by porpoise at 10:55 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]
As a for example, contractors in biotech/ tech ask for 3x hourly at one-hour chunks (at a minimum) for irregular work. Out here, that's $50/ hr x3.
I've made a bunch of extra grands in a month, once or twice. Often under the table.
Have you considered tax reporting stuff? I'm Canadian so no use to you in that aspect.
posted by porpoise at 1:12 AM on February 13
I've made a bunch of extra grands in a month, once or twice. Often under the table.
Have you considered tax reporting stuff? I'm Canadian so no use to you in that aspect.
posted by porpoise at 1:12 AM on February 13
According to the the mit calculator I live in about the same COL situation you do.
Id pay 15/hr and feel like it's good bc the work is better than target and the boss and commute are better too. If it goes well and you can back away from training maybe go a little higher. If you want to pay by the job just plug in your estimated time. Sounds like he'll let you know if he's unhappy, but do regular check ins. You definitely want people working in your home to feel fairly compensated.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:57 AM on February 13 [1 favorite]
Id pay 15/hr and feel like it's good bc the work is better than target and the boss and commute are better too. If it goes well and you can back away from training maybe go a little higher. If you want to pay by the job just plug in your estimated time. Sounds like he'll let you know if he's unhappy, but do regular check ins. You definitely want people working in your home to feel fairly compensated.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:57 AM on February 13 [1 favorite]
amtho: Anyone: please give me numbers for type of work.
I did low-skill odd jobs in the DC suburbs for $20/hr in 2009-10. These usually involved some physical labor like pulling weeds or mulching. So my gut says $20/hr, but my brain and my inflation calculator say that $20 in 2010 is the equivalent of $29 now, so make of that what you will.
posted by capricorn at 5:30 AM on February 13
I did low-skill odd jobs in the DC suburbs for $20/hr in 2009-10. These usually involved some physical labor like pulling weeds or mulching. So my gut says $20/hr, but my brain and my inflation calculator say that $20 in 2010 is the equivalent of $29 now, so make of that what you will.
posted by capricorn at 5:30 AM on February 13
Oh and just as a point of reference, the largest rates floated here are the hourly equivalent of the salary I was paid as a PhD research scientist working at a large state university, not all that long ago.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:49 AM on February 13 [4 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:49 AM on February 13 [4 favorites]
I think $15/hour is fair for an untrained worker who might not be paying taxes on their earnings. It's likely similar to what he'd make in an entry level service job in your area. (For reference, I was making $10/hour as a low-paid service worker in NC in 2012, and inflation calculator tells me that's equivalent to $14 now.)
posted by toastedcheese at 7:59 AM on February 13 [5 favorites]
posted by toastedcheese at 7:59 AM on February 13 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I work in a HCOL area in a research role which generally entails having a Master's, I've been promoted, and I make $30/hr. I also get great benefits, so it's not directly comparable, but that wage is high for random poor-quality neighbor kid work. I would go for entry-level retail or office work wages, maybe slightly more since you aren't paying employer taxes.
I think you're looking for the One True Answer, and there isn't one. How badly do you want this done and what are your other options? If you really need help and he's the only person willing to do it, he kinda gets to charge what he likes. If you don't really need help that much or have other options, you can be more selective. It sounds like you're overthinking this a bit and should simplify it to just you hiring this teen, leaving out all the backstory about his abilities and work skills and whether you're doing him a favor.
posted by momus_window at 8:20 AM on February 13 [4 favorites]
I think you're looking for the One True Answer, and there isn't one. How badly do you want this done and what are your other options? If you really need help and he's the only person willing to do it, he kinda gets to charge what he likes. If you don't really need help that much or have other options, you can be more selective. It sounds like you're overthinking this a bit and should simplify it to just you hiring this teen, leaving out all the backstory about his abilities and work skills and whether you're doing him a favor.
posted by momus_window at 8:20 AM on February 13 [4 favorites]
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posted by cocoagirl at 11:19 AM on February 12 [10 favorites]