Does right=clockwise hold cross-culturally w/ regard to turning a dial?
December 21, 2024 2:23 PM Subscribe
In English, or at least the variety of American English I speak, it's understood that turning a dial/screw "right" means turning it clockwise. But this doesn't seem inevitable to me -- after all, while the tangential motion at the top of the dial is rightward, the motion at the bottom is leftward (and still other points are moving up or down). Are there languages/cultures where the convention is reversed, or where left/right would not be used in this context at all?
Also, if there is variation across languages, does having a right=clockwise metaphor correlate with having an up=ahead metaphor?
(Note that this question is specific to turning dials, screws, and similar objects; I'm aware that when, say, passing cards at a round table, clockwise becomes "left" for obvious reasons.)
Also, if there is variation across languages, does having a right=clockwise metaphor correlate with having an up=ahead metaphor?
(Note that this question is specific to turning dials, screws, and similar objects; I'm aware that when, say, passing cards at a round table, clockwise becomes "left" for obvious reasons.)
It almost feels like there's an inherent cognitive bias towards "right" = clockwise, but it'd be interesting to hear otherwise. It seems like for as long as vehicles of any sort have had a wheel to steer them (going back at least to large sailing ships), clockwise has meant right, and counter-clockwise has meant left. Was that a decision that was made at some point and then everyone stuck with it, or did that just seem like an obvious thing to the first people to have that situation and it didn't really require much deliberation?
posted by LionIndex at 3:59 PM on December 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 3:59 PM on December 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
The phrase "right tighty, lefty loosey," derives from the fact that something that is threaded can have two directions, commonly called a right hand and left hand thread.
If you make a thumbs up symbol with your right hand, turning a right-handed threaded object in the direction your fingers are pointing will move it in the direction your thumb is pointing. I imagine everything you're talking about in your post derives from that.
posted by AbelMelveny at 4:14 PM on December 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
If you make a thumbs up symbol with your right hand, turning a right-handed threaded object in the direction your fingers are pointing will move it in the direction your thumb is pointing. I imagine everything you're talking about in your post derives from that.
posted by AbelMelveny at 4:14 PM on December 21, 2024 [4 favorites]
This doesn't answer your question exactly but it might help explain the convention:
In the Northern hemisphere the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, At midday the sun is directly to the South. So if you face South, the sun traces a line from left to right. Sundials - basically sticks in the ground originally before they became ornamental - trace this left to right line in a clockwise circle.
The first clocks were created in Europe as mechanical replacements for sundials, which is why they followed the sundial in going clockwise to mark the passage of time. Hence, right (from east to west when facing south) = clockwise.
If sundials and clocks had originated in the Southern hemisphere, where the sun is in the North at midday, the convention may have been different.
posted by underclocked at 4:15 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
In the Northern hemisphere the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, At midday the sun is directly to the South. So if you face South, the sun traces a line from left to right. Sundials - basically sticks in the ground originally before they became ornamental - trace this left to right line in a clockwise circle.
The first clocks were created in Europe as mechanical replacements for sundials, which is why they followed the sundial in going clockwise to mark the passage of time. Hence, right (from east to west when facing south) = clockwise.
If sundials and clocks had originated in the Southern hemisphere, where the sun is in the North at midday, the convention may have been different.
posted by underclocked at 4:15 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
I don't have an answer, but I admire the question.
posted by SPrintF at 4:18 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 4:18 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
Not heard right used to mean clockwise, I would assume since there is no established correlation. I'm in the UK.
posted by biffa at 4:31 PM on December 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 4:31 PM on December 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
Super common in my experience (northeastern US) to hear "right" to mean clockwise, at least when you're the one doing the turning. (I'm not sure I'd say a gear was turning "to the right" if it were, on its own, spinning clockwise.)
Around here at least, when you turn a door key in one direction or another, you'd definitely call that turning it to the right or left (same with a deadbolt knob, and probably same with the doorknob, if you ever bothered to talk about it). Radio dials, when we had them, you'd turn clockwise to move that vertical tuning bar rightward (though I think you'd be as likely to call that tuning up and down). And explaining how a car worked, you'd be overwhelmingly more likely to say "turn the steering wheel to the right, and the car goes right" than to say "turn the steering wheel clockwise..." (And as LionIndex pointed out, that's true for ship's wheels, too.)
Looking forward to hearing the counterexamples you've asked for. (But until then, I'd be curious if, in biffa's experience, people in the UK really talk about clockwise turns of a door key, never left or right? And same with a steeringwheel, though I guess that one can be bypassed if you assume anyone's generally talking about turning the car left- and rightward, not the wheel itself.)
Great question!
posted by nobody at 6:43 PM on December 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
Around here at least, when you turn a door key in one direction or another, you'd definitely call that turning it to the right or left (same with a deadbolt knob, and probably same with the doorknob, if you ever bothered to talk about it). Radio dials, when we had them, you'd turn clockwise to move that vertical tuning bar rightward (though I think you'd be as likely to call that tuning up and down). And explaining how a car worked, you'd be overwhelmingly more likely to say "turn the steering wheel to the right, and the car goes right" than to say "turn the steering wheel clockwise..." (And as LionIndex pointed out, that's true for ship's wheels, too.)
Looking forward to hearing the counterexamples you've asked for. (But until then, I'd be curious if, in biffa's experience, people in the UK really talk about clockwise turns of a door key, never left or right? And same with a steeringwheel, though I guess that one can be bypassed if you assume anyone's generally talking about turning the car left- and rightward, not the wheel itself.)
Great question!
posted by nobody at 6:43 PM on December 21, 2024 [3 favorites]
I’ll be paying to this, it’s a really interesting question!
posted by ashbury at 6:50 PM on December 21, 2024
posted by ashbury at 6:50 PM on December 21, 2024
I always refer to it as “antiwiddershins.”
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:37 PM on December 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:37 PM on December 21, 2024 [1 favorite]
A related question came up for me recently. There was a group activity involving people sitting on a circle. When people passed items to their left, this was described as clockwise. I asked my friend, why is this clockwise? He said, well, if you’re looking down from the top it’s clockwise and we left it at that.
I have always objected to the association of “clockwise” and “right”, because it seems to arbitrarily preference the top of the circular motion. I’ll admit though that it seems a very natural way to steer a car and I can’t imagine doing otherwise. That would be much worse than moving between the UK and the US driving-wise.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:23 PM on December 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
I have always objected to the association of “clockwise” and “right”, because it seems to arbitrarily preference the top of the circular motion. I’ll admit though that it seems a very natural way to steer a car and I can’t imagine doing otherwise. That would be much worse than moving between the UK and the US driving-wise.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:23 PM on December 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
Obviously right round is like a record, baby. I.e., clockwise.
But seriously, I think it probably is universal that turning a knob to the right is clockwise. Yes, the top goes right, and the bottom goes left, but for ergonomic reasons, stuff meant to be interacted with is position below the height of people's heads, so it's easier to see the top of it than the bottom (especially with your hand there manipulating it) so that's the side we talk about moving right or left.
I would like to just say that even clockwise/counterclockwise is weird and fussy about point of view. Most disco balls have motors that go the same way as the spindle on a record player, but because the record player motor points up, and the disco balls point down, the object rotates in opposite direction (which kind of bugs me, TBH). The Coriolis effect causes storms to turn opposite directions in different hemispheres if you're looking at the Earth from the side. But if you looked at a transparent Earth from one of the poles, storms on both North and South hemispheres are turning the same direction as the planet itself (i.e., with prograde motion).
posted by aubilenon at 10:03 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
But seriously, I think it probably is universal that turning a knob to the right is clockwise. Yes, the top goes right, and the bottom goes left, but for ergonomic reasons, stuff meant to be interacted with is position below the height of people's heads, so it's easier to see the top of it than the bottom (especially with your hand there manipulating it) so that's the side we talk about moving right or left.
I would like to just say that even clockwise/counterclockwise is weird and fussy about point of view. Most disco balls have motors that go the same way as the spindle on a record player, but because the record player motor points up, and the disco balls point down, the object rotates in opposite direction (which kind of bugs me, TBH). The Coriolis effect causes storms to turn opposite directions in different hemispheres if you're looking at the Earth from the side. But if you looked at a transparent Earth from one of the poles, storms on both North and South hemispheres are turning the same direction as the planet itself (i.e., with prograde motion).
posted by aubilenon at 10:03 PM on December 21, 2024 [6 favorites]
If you look down on top of handlebars on a bike, turning to the right involves the top hand moving to the right and the arc being in a clockwise direction. This is a natural coincidence, it's how things work when the mechanics are at their simplest and may have something to do with the language convention? As a bit of a guess
posted by deadwax at 11:02 PM on December 21, 2024
posted by deadwax at 11:02 PM on December 21, 2024
When you turn a rudder on a small boat, you turn the rudder clockwise to turn the boat left.
If you have ever tried to tighten or loosen a screw that's upside down, you have to let go of this righty-tighty stuff to get what you want done.
In short, it never made sense to me either.
posted by vacapinta at 12:31 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
If you have ever tried to tighten or loosen a screw that's upside down, you have to let go of this righty-tighty stuff to get what you want done.
In short, it never made sense to me either.
posted by vacapinta at 12:31 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
nobody: , I'd be curious if, in biffa's experience, people in the UK really talk about clockwise turns of a door key, never left or right? And same with a steeringwheel, though I guess that one can be bypassed if you assume anyone's generally talking about turning the car left- and rightward, not the wheel itself.
In my (UK) family, driving directions when manoeuvring are "right hand down" or "left hand down" for unambiguous instruction what to do.
The unambiguous thing with door locks is to. let the person with the key find "locked" or "unlocked" because it will depend which side the hinges are and which motion pulls a dead bolt into the door. Mostly the same is true for door handles, but I once moved into a place where a bodge job had been done with the latch mechanism and, while there were good handles on both sides, you had to turn the handle the nonconventional way to open the door.
Winnie the Proust: There was a group activity involving people sitting on a circle. When people passed items to their left, this was described as clockwise. I asked my friend, why is this clockwise? He said, well, if you’re looking down from the top it’s clockwise and we left it at that.
We could be define "stage clockwise" for looking out from a clock face and passing things to your right, maybe?
posted by k3ninho at 2:54 AM on December 22, 2024
In my (UK) family, driving directions when manoeuvring are "right hand down" or "left hand down" for unambiguous instruction what to do.
The unambiguous thing with door locks is to. let the person with the key find "locked" or "unlocked" because it will depend which side the hinges are and which motion pulls a dead bolt into the door. Mostly the same is true for door handles, but I once moved into a place where a bodge job had been done with the latch mechanism and, while there were good handles on both sides, you had to turn the handle the nonconventional way to open the door.
Winnie the Proust: There was a group activity involving people sitting on a circle. When people passed items to their left, this was described as clockwise. I asked my friend, why is this clockwise? He said, well, if you’re looking down from the top it’s clockwise and we left it at that.
We could be define "stage clockwise" for looking out from a clock face and passing things to your right, maybe?
posted by k3ninho at 2:54 AM on December 22, 2024
I’m in the UK and I’ve heard right to mean clockwise, also in France we say it too. And in Italy from memory.
posted by ellieBOA at 3:22 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 3:22 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
To remember 'turning right' I don't usually consider where the top is going (since, as you said, that seems arbitrary when the bottom is going the other way) but instead imagine myself as the key or dial, turning to my right.
Only when I went to write this, I realised this is still ambiguous: I see the toothed part of the key as my 'feet' and the round part as the 'head', but one could argue otherwise…
posted by demi-octopus at 3:46 AM on December 22, 2024
Only when I went to write this, I realised this is still ambiguous: I see the toothed part of the key as my 'feet' and the round part as the 'head', but one could argue otherwise…
posted by demi-octopus at 3:46 AM on December 22, 2024
The point about "but the bottom of the dial moves left" is interesting because it reminds me that I always have to think about what "swipe right" vs. "swipe left" means. Should I swipe so that something new is revealed on the right, or on the left?
posted by emelenjr at 5:40 AM on December 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 5:40 AM on December 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
(I thought I couldn't relate to that, but then realized when we scroll down to the bottom of a page, we're really pushing everything upward. I guess on a phone we're swiping up to scroll down -- but we don't talk about it that way, do we.)
posted by nobody at 5:51 AM on December 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by nobody at 5:51 AM on December 22, 2024 [3 favorites]
I taught my kid "clockwise" and "widdershins" early and clearly to help avoid this nonsense!
There's some discussion on the web of using "right" to mean clockwise in other languages, and some of their phrases they use to remember. Of course it's arbitrary but it seems pretty widespread. I can't personally vouch for any of these.
E.g. in Spanish " "La derecha oprime y la izquierda libera." = The right oppresses and the left liberates. "
Rechts dreht die Uhr, so gehts zua
Austrian saying for "the clock turns right, thats how it gets tight"
Seit das Deutsche Reich besteht, wird das Gewinde rechtsgedreht. (Meaning: Since the German reich exists, turn the thread (screw) right.)
Re: swiping, this is also the same issue as the "natural" scrolling on Macbooks. One way you sort of move the "paper" the way you want, the other is to move the "screen" the way you want, and those are opposites.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:53 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
There's some discussion on the web of using "right" to mean clockwise in other languages, and some of their phrases they use to remember. Of course it's arbitrary but it seems pretty widespread. I can't personally vouch for any of these.
E.g. in Spanish " "La derecha oprime y la izquierda libera." = The right oppresses and the left liberates. "
Rechts dreht die Uhr, so gehts zua
Austrian saying for "the clock turns right, thats how it gets tight"
Seit das Deutsche Reich besteht, wird das Gewinde rechtsgedreht. (Meaning: Since the German reich exists, turn the thread (screw) right.)
Re: swiping, this is also the same issue as the "natural" scrolling on Macbooks. One way you sort of move the "paper" the way you want, the other is to move the "screen" the way you want, and those are opposites.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:53 AM on December 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
I (in South Africa) asked my mathematics teacher a very similar question in standard 6! And he couldn't answer me.
I always assumed clockwise is associated with right because if a wheel resting on a surface turns clockwise, it would move to the right.
posted by Zumbador at 8:11 AM on December 22, 2024 [2 favorites]
I always assumed clockwise is associated with right because if a wheel resting on a surface turns clockwise, it would move to the right.
posted by Zumbador at 8:11 AM on December 22, 2024 [2 favorites]
One more data point: My variety of standard American English is the same as the OP's. The tangential motion at the top of the doorknob is rightward to open the door.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:35 AM on December 22, 2024
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:35 AM on December 22, 2024
> I’ll admit though that it seems a very natural way to steer a car and I can’t imagine doing otherwise.
Right is associated with clockwise motion when steering something like a car or a ship, because as a rule you are manipulating the top part of the circular object in order to steer the device.
For example, in driving a car, you usually have your hands somewhere between the 9 o-clock, 12 o'clock, and 3 o'clock positions, and moving your hands right-ward steers right and left-ward steers left.
Even if you happen to put your hands on the bottom - like the 4 o'clock-8 o'clock hand position now recommended in order to avoid mangling your arms if the airbags go off, still the top of the wheel is more in your field of view and when you see that part of the wheel moving right-wards as you turn right you tend to associate those two things very naturally.
Making an association between clockwise & counterclockwise and left or right is otherwise rather a complex chain of thought, probably involving various gears, transmissions and so on. Where as seeing something move right as you turn right is an instant mental association.
Now if there ever were a situation where only the bottom part of the wheel were exposed or used to control the direction of the device, I would imagine then left would be clockwise and right would be counterclockwise. Because that would be the direction you are manipulating that part of the wheel.
Just for example, the old Honeywell-style thermostats were controlled by a wheel. But the temperature scale and moveable mark for the desired temperature were on the bottom part of the circle.
In that situation, any normal person would say "turn the dial to the left" - meaning clockwise - to reduce the temperature or "to the right" - meaning counterclockwise - to increase it.
So that is the exact opposite of the association right=clockwise that we have with car steering wheels.
It's simply because the "action" part of the wheel is at the top or bottom of the circle in the two cases.
In the case of the thermometer, of course it is even more natural to say "move the temperature UP" or "DOWN".
So now we have UP =COUNTERCLOCKWISE and DOWN=CLOCKWISE.
That is an even stranger conflation of terms, but of course no one is thinking about clockwise or counterclockwise at all in that situation. They are only thinking about putting the mark where they want it and CW vs CCW is something of a side effect.
Just for example, the mechanism on this different Honeywell thermostat is just about exactly the same (the control lever is on a pivot and you move it across the bottom of the thermostat).
In that case "left" and "right" is pretty obvious and no one would event think about CW vs CCW. But it's literally the exact same thing - except that the range of motion is more visibly limited to only the bottom part of the circle.
Other thermostats have the same mechanism on the side. Now we have UP=CW and DOWN=CCW if the lever is on the left side, and the opposite if on the right side.
Others have the mechanism on top, and now it's like a steering wheel with RIGHT=CW & LEFT=CCW.
TL;DR: Left & right (or up/down, high/low, whatever) become associated with CW or CCW because the "operational" part of the circle in question moves in those directions. Left/right, up/down, etc do not have anything to do with CW/CCW per se - other than the fact that certain portions of the circle do move in those directions, depending on the orientation of the circle.
posted by flug at 10:40 AM on December 24, 2024
Right is associated with clockwise motion when steering something like a car or a ship, because as a rule you are manipulating the top part of the circular object in order to steer the device.
For example, in driving a car, you usually have your hands somewhere between the 9 o-clock, 12 o'clock, and 3 o'clock positions, and moving your hands right-ward steers right and left-ward steers left.
Even if you happen to put your hands on the bottom - like the 4 o'clock-8 o'clock hand position now recommended in order to avoid mangling your arms if the airbags go off, still the top of the wheel is more in your field of view and when you see that part of the wheel moving right-wards as you turn right you tend to associate those two things very naturally.
Making an association between clockwise & counterclockwise and left or right is otherwise rather a complex chain of thought, probably involving various gears, transmissions and so on. Where as seeing something move right as you turn right is an instant mental association.
Now if there ever were a situation where only the bottom part of the wheel were exposed or used to control the direction of the device, I would imagine then left would be clockwise and right would be counterclockwise. Because that would be the direction you are manipulating that part of the wheel.
Just for example, the old Honeywell-style thermostats were controlled by a wheel. But the temperature scale and moveable mark for the desired temperature were on the bottom part of the circle.
In that situation, any normal person would say "turn the dial to the left" - meaning clockwise - to reduce the temperature or "to the right" - meaning counterclockwise - to increase it.
So that is the exact opposite of the association right=clockwise that we have with car steering wheels.
It's simply because the "action" part of the wheel is at the top or bottom of the circle in the two cases.
In the case of the thermometer, of course it is even more natural to say "move the temperature UP" or "DOWN".
So now we have UP =COUNTERCLOCKWISE and DOWN=CLOCKWISE.
That is an even stranger conflation of terms, but of course no one is thinking about clockwise or counterclockwise at all in that situation. They are only thinking about putting the mark where they want it and CW vs CCW is something of a side effect.
Just for example, the mechanism on this different Honeywell thermostat is just about exactly the same (the control lever is on a pivot and you move it across the bottom of the thermostat).
In that case "left" and "right" is pretty obvious and no one would event think about CW vs CCW. But it's literally the exact same thing - except that the range of motion is more visibly limited to only the bottom part of the circle.
Other thermostats have the same mechanism on the side. Now we have UP=CW and DOWN=CCW if the lever is on the left side, and the opposite if on the right side.
Others have the mechanism on top, and now it's like a steering wheel with RIGHT=CW & LEFT=CCW.
TL;DR: Left & right (or up/down, high/low, whatever) become associated with CW or CCW because the "operational" part of the circle in question moves in those directions. Left/right, up/down, etc do not have anything to do with CW/CCW per se - other than the fact that certain portions of the circle do move in those directions, depending on the orientation of the circle.
posted by flug at 10:40 AM on December 24, 2024
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I look forward to hearing answers! What other words do various cultures use for this? What words for rotational motion existed before there were clocks? I hope lots of people chime in.
posted by Well I never at 3:14 PM on December 21, 2024 [5 favorites]