Handling post-infidelity situation with partner & affair partner
November 7, 2024 11:33 AM Subscribe
My spouse, R, had an emotional affair (1.5+ years) with B, and several months ago I told him I knew. We are in couples therapy, btw. Recently, R told me that he wants to restart his friendship with B.
I am 100% against the restarting of this "friendship," and I have explained to R more than once (more than twice) why I am setting this boundary. He somehow isn't getting it. (B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this, and R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes.)
There are MANY more details I could write here (for example, R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later), but I won't. I am mostly looking for validation, because I've starting to feel like he is gaslighting me in some ways lately. Basically, if you've been the betrayed partner of a couple and your partner wanted to stay friends with the affair partner, what did you do? What did you say to express your desire to, say, have your partner go no-contact with their affair partner?
I don't think I will ever budge from this boundary, and it is incredibly frustrating that R doesn't (or claims not to) understand it. To me, it's common sense for repairing our relationship.
I am 100% against the restarting of this "friendship," and I have explained to R more than once (more than twice) why I am setting this boundary. He somehow isn't getting it. (B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this, and R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes.)
There are MANY more details I could write here (for example, R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later), but I won't. I am mostly looking for validation, because I've starting to feel like he is gaslighting me in some ways lately. Basically, if you've been the betrayed partner of a couple and your partner wanted to stay friends with the affair partner, what did you do? What did you say to express your desire to, say, have your partner go no-contact with their affair partner?
I don't think I will ever budge from this boundary, and it is incredibly frustrating that R doesn't (or claims not to) understand it. To me, it's common sense for repairing our relationship.
Oh HELL no. This isn't like being friends with an old girlfriend, these are two people who disrespected you and your marriage. So they've proven that they are capable of it š
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 11:44 AM on November 7 [9 favorites]
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 11:44 AM on November 7 [9 favorites]
You are setting a (reasonable!) boundary, and he's putting this friendship above staying married? He can barely stay away from this person for a month, based on your loose timeline, and he's not being honest about it?
This sounds like a great thing to talk about in counseling. The outcome of counseling is not always that the relationship can be fixed.
posted by momus_window at 11:44 AM on November 7 [31 favorites]
This sounds like a great thing to talk about in counseling. The outcome of counseling is not always that the relationship can be fixed.
posted by momus_window at 11:44 AM on November 7 [31 favorites]
It sounds like heās not treating your relationship like a priority.
My recommendation is to make your own well-being a priority for yourself.
posted by bunderful at 11:46 AM on November 7 [12 favorites]
My recommendation is to make your own well-being a priority for yourself.
posted by bunderful at 11:46 AM on November 7 [12 favorites]
He somehow isn't getting it.
No, I think he understands that you want to set a boundary, he just doesn't think it's important to respect them. It's how this whole situation came about in the first place, except of course, for a while he thought you were unaware of the affair (and therefore incapable of expressing your displeasure, the best of all worlds).
Either he changes his tune vis-a-vis putting your needs ahead of his mere desires or you're going to find yourselves in this situation over and over again.
posted by axiom at 11:52 AM on November 7 [7 favorites]
No, I think he understands that you want to set a boundary, he just doesn't think it's important to respect them. It's how this whole situation came about in the first place, except of course, for a while he thought you were unaware of the affair (and therefore incapable of expressing your displeasure, the best of all worlds).
Either he changes his tune vis-a-vis putting your needs ahead of his mere desires or you're going to find yourselves in this situation over and over again.
posted by axiom at 11:52 AM on November 7 [7 favorites]
He isn't not getting it.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:53 AM on November 7 [7 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:53 AM on November 7 [7 favorites]
My marriage is only monogamish, so I'm saying this with some bias towards polyamory:
If your spouse want to prioritize this friendship over your stated boundary, then your spouse is prioritizing the friendship over your marriage.
In this case, you really don't have to explain why. In fact, I'd stop explaining why. It's not a comprehension problem. It's that your partner doesn't want to do what you are asking.
Here's the words I would use: I do not want you to continue this friendship. If you do, I am going to have to take steps towards ending our marriage. We should discuss this in counselling.
In other words even in marriages where there's less emphasis on monogamy, the main thing is that you have to respect your partner's limits, or else you aren't partners. I'm sorry your partner is putting you through this.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:55 AM on November 7 [63 favorites]
If your spouse want to prioritize this friendship over your stated boundary, then your spouse is prioritizing the friendship over your marriage.
In this case, you really don't have to explain why. In fact, I'd stop explaining why. It's not a comprehension problem. It's that your partner doesn't want to do what you are asking.
Here's the words I would use: I do not want you to continue this friendship. If you do, I am going to have to take steps towards ending our marriage. We should discuss this in counselling.
In other words even in marriages where there's less emphasis on monogamy, the main thing is that you have to respect your partner's limits, or else you aren't partners. I'm sorry your partner is putting you through this.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:55 AM on November 7 [63 favorites]
Whether or not it is possible for him to have a friendship with a person he's been unfaithful with is sort of irrelevant. This is a very, very reasonable boundary. If anything I think it's a frankly terrible sign that he did not permanently cut ties with B as part of his moves to repair and rebuild your marriage. As you note, it's pretty common sense.
There are some sensible exceptions to "always go no-contact with the ex-affair partner in order to rebuild the chosen relationship" but they're rare and specific and I don't imagine they apply here. Anybody who is remotely serious about making amends and returning their focus to their original/primary partner would either take that step unilaterally or agree readily.
Upon preview: I think axiom absolutely nails it.
posted by Tomorrowful at 11:55 AM on November 7 [4 favorites]
There are some sensible exceptions to "always go no-contact with the ex-affair partner in order to rebuild the chosen relationship" but they're rare and specific and I don't imagine they apply here. Anybody who is remotely serious about making amends and returning their focus to their original/primary partner would either take that step unilaterally or agree readily.
Upon preview: I think axiom absolutely nails it.
posted by Tomorrowful at 11:55 AM on November 7 [4 favorites]
No, and what a childish thing to even ask for.
He doesn't care, or is delusional.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:58 AM on November 7 [10 favorites]
He doesn't care, or is delusional.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:58 AM on November 7 [10 favorites]
I donāt disagree with the advice already provided, but I think youāre using the word āboundaryā in an odd way. You donāt get to set boundaries on other peopleās behaviour, even when youāre married to them. You can set a boundary around your own behaviour, then other people decide how theyāll respond.
In this case, you might say: if you continue a friendship with B, our relationship will be at an end. Then, the ball is in Rās court - he can decide what to do next.
posted by rd45 at 12:06 PM on November 7 [51 favorites]
In this case, you might say: if you continue a friendship with B, our relationship will be at an end. Then, the ball is in Rās court - he can decide what to do next.
posted by rd45 at 12:06 PM on November 7 [51 favorites]
Time to break up. He's not going to end it with her and him claiming "friendship" is pretty clear on that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
It sounds like your spouse is not actually committed to you any more, if he ever was.
Very likely your spouse does not consider an emotional affair to be infidelity - many people don't. But if you look at this even without regarding what your partner is doing as an affair, what you do have is a partner who is deceitful. He's doing things behind your back and not telling you about them. It doesn't matter if what he is doing is getting close to someone else emotionally, or running up debts in both your name, or going off birth control without telling you, or planning on quitting his job. When one partner does things that will impact both members of a couple, and hides what they are doing, they are acting as if they have already broken up.
Sometimes a member of a couple will do things behind their partner's back because their partner is sensitive and emotional, or perhaps because they are over controlling. Sometimes they do it because they don't care how their partner feels. Sometimes they do it because they care too much. Again, it doesn't matter why they are doing it - once they do they have checked out of the relationship.
I'd suggest to you, that you try not to think about how you feel about this for awhile, and just think of it as a logistical problem because if you try to persuade him to care about how you feel and to share your viewpoint, you are likely to only convince yourself that maybe he understands you now and maybe he won't do it anymore, or else that maybe you can live with him doing it as long as he promises to meet some conditions. Either way, all you'd be doing is convincing yourself you can live with someone who has been deceitful.
From now on the assumption is that he lies, and sneaks around, and that it's chronic with him. That doesn't mean you have to ditch him - you might be stuck with him because the two of you split the rent. But it does mean you probably will be safer if you stop trusting him about anything, and you should assume he will do whatever he wants without any regard to your feelings, or needs, or safety.
There's really no point talking about it to him - you already have, more than twice and it just led to him lying. Don't demean yourself by talking about it anymore. Figure out, on your own, how to manage your feelings. The more you talk to him, the more he will sneak around and lie by omission. Don't go to him for comfort or connection or reassurance. Because it might feel like its there when he says he understands you and that you matter - but it's not there. He won't keep his word. He'll just tell you what you want to hear so that he doesn't have to deal.
It looks like you have to assume he's going to resume the emotional affair with her, because he already has. In that case, what do you want to do? Do you want to break up with him? You don't have to - but if you stay with him, you are choosing to stay with a guy who will keep harmful secrets, and who isn't getting his needs met in your relationship, and who can't meet your needs for intimacy and trust.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:13 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]
Very likely your spouse does not consider an emotional affair to be infidelity - many people don't. But if you look at this even without regarding what your partner is doing as an affair, what you do have is a partner who is deceitful. He's doing things behind your back and not telling you about them. It doesn't matter if what he is doing is getting close to someone else emotionally, or running up debts in both your name, or going off birth control without telling you, or planning on quitting his job. When one partner does things that will impact both members of a couple, and hides what they are doing, they are acting as if they have already broken up.
Sometimes a member of a couple will do things behind their partner's back because their partner is sensitive and emotional, or perhaps because they are over controlling. Sometimes they do it because they don't care how their partner feels. Sometimes they do it because they care too much. Again, it doesn't matter why they are doing it - once they do they have checked out of the relationship.
I'd suggest to you, that you try not to think about how you feel about this for awhile, and just think of it as a logistical problem because if you try to persuade him to care about how you feel and to share your viewpoint, you are likely to only convince yourself that maybe he understands you now and maybe he won't do it anymore, or else that maybe you can live with him doing it as long as he promises to meet some conditions. Either way, all you'd be doing is convincing yourself you can live with someone who has been deceitful.
From now on the assumption is that he lies, and sneaks around, and that it's chronic with him. That doesn't mean you have to ditch him - you might be stuck with him because the two of you split the rent. But it does mean you probably will be safer if you stop trusting him about anything, and you should assume he will do whatever he wants without any regard to your feelings, or needs, or safety.
There's really no point talking about it to him - you already have, more than twice and it just led to him lying. Don't demean yourself by talking about it anymore. Figure out, on your own, how to manage your feelings. The more you talk to him, the more he will sneak around and lie by omission. Don't go to him for comfort or connection or reassurance. Because it might feel like its there when he says he understands you and that you matter - but it's not there. He won't keep his word. He'll just tell you what you want to hear so that he doesn't have to deal.
It looks like you have to assume he's going to resume the emotional affair with her, because he already has. In that case, what do you want to do? Do you want to break up with him? You don't have to - but if you stay with him, you are choosing to stay with a guy who will keep harmful secrets, and who isn't getting his needs met in your relationship, and who can't meet your needs for intimacy and trust.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:13 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]
just nth-ing here, but if him+her nearly ended your marriage, him asking if he can reconnect with shortly after is some bullshit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]
Relationships are messy. If you're asking us how to get him to stop this behavior then yeah, we can't do that for you, sorry. Since he's not respecting your relationship as others have said, your choices are either to live with it or leave. That's about it. Is being with this person better than being alone? Only you can answer that.
posted by Melismata at 12:16 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 12:16 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
It's morally neutral and very human for R to want to reconnect with B. We can't control what we feel, only how we interpret, process, and express our feelings. So, R experiences a desire for friendship with B--no problem, not something R is doing on purpose, just a morally neutral emotional experience. However, when R had secret contact with B and made plans to resume the friendship, and then tried to persuade you to modify an expectation most people would consider the bare minimum after infidelity, his behavior showed a lack of integrity, empathy, and respect for you and your relationship. He doesn't need to be able to conjure up your exact feelings and believe he would feel the same if the roles were reversed. It's enough for you to say, "I'm willing to figure this out with you, but only if you're no-contact with B." R has the option to say, "I choose contact with B over working things out with you." He's trying to weasel out of owning his choices and living with the consequences. He's trying to make his feeling (wanting friendship with B) your problem to solve, when it belongs entirely to him. He can choose to prioritize his desire for connection with B, and admit he's not willing to maintain his commitments to you, or he can choose to maintain his commitments to you and process his feelings about B with a therapist or trusted friend.
posted by theotherdurassister at 12:20 PM on November 7 [16 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 12:20 PM on November 7 [16 favorites]
If your spouse want to prioritize this friendship over your stated boundary, then your spouse is prioritizing the friendship over your marriage.
1,000 times this. To which I would add that you have stated an eminently reasonable boundary. I was once in a position like this in which my then partner thought she could transition to a "just a friendship" with the other party and that it "wouldn't be fair" to just cut that person out of her life. Something my therapist said to me at the time really resonated: "She's not going to be fully committed to being with you so long as that guy continues to be in her life." I've also, as chance would have it, been in the position of being the other party in a similar circumstance. We have remained friendly at arm's reach after quite some time of extremely limited contact, but that's certainly not what I wanted or what I thought I could work towards when we were trying to be "just friends" after concluding our romantic relationship. Similarly my then partner continued for years to get the occasional "friendly" email from the other party that would contain a thinly veiled romantic overture.
(B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this, and R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes.)
I'd bet almost anything that this isn't really true if B's new-ish spouse has a real understanding of what's going on. I will also say that it's easy for R to say that he'd be okay with it, because he's not in that situation himself and has no idea how he would actually react or what he would actually feel.
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again
Yeah, that's some bullshit right there. I gather that you want to stay married to R, so you're going to have to decide whether or not this is something you can live with. If it isn't, you need to make that clear to R in no uncertain terms.
posted by slkinsey at 12:21 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
1,000 times this. To which I would add that you have stated an eminently reasonable boundary. I was once in a position like this in which my then partner thought she could transition to a "just a friendship" with the other party and that it "wouldn't be fair" to just cut that person out of her life. Something my therapist said to me at the time really resonated: "She's not going to be fully committed to being with you so long as that guy continues to be in her life." I've also, as chance would have it, been in the position of being the other party in a similar circumstance. We have remained friendly at arm's reach after quite some time of extremely limited contact, but that's certainly not what I wanted or what I thought I could work towards when we were trying to be "just friends" after concluding our romantic relationship. Similarly my then partner continued for years to get the occasional "friendly" email from the other party that would contain a thinly veiled romantic overture.
(B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this, and R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes.)
I'd bet almost anything that this isn't really true if B's new-ish spouse has a real understanding of what's going on. I will also say that it's easy for R to say that he'd be okay with it, because he's not in that situation himself and has no idea how he would actually react or what he would actually feel.
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again
Yeah, that's some bullshit right there. I gather that you want to stay married to R, so you're going to have to decide whether or not this is something you can live with. If it isn't, you need to make that clear to R in no uncertain terms.
posted by slkinsey at 12:21 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
He gets it, he just doesn't like it, so he'd rather manipulate you than do something that is literally the bare minimum, sub-basement bar for reconciliation after an affair.
Do not trust this man.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:29 PM on November 7 [8 favorites]
Do not trust this man.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:29 PM on November 7 [8 favorites]
He's not asking for your permission. He's already seeing her, as you noted, and this is his way of telling you, so if you were to find out and confront him, he can say, "But you knew I wanted to see her!!"
I have been where you are. Break up.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:45 PM on November 7 [13 favorites]
I have been where you are. Break up.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:45 PM on November 7 [13 favorites]
R wants his cake and to eat it too. You need to disinvite yourself from this party. DTMF.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:47 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:47 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]
This might work for some people but it does not work for *you*, and you do not need to explain it and you do not need to change your mind because your partner tells you hypothetically heād be cool about it in your shoes.
I have been in your position and also felt I needed the affair partner to not be part of our lives going forward to even attempt to repair the damage. My then-partner did not take that as a bid for a negotiation, they said yes, I get that, it is a reasonable consequence of my actions, and they as far as I know never contacted that person again.
You donāt want to budge on this and your partner does not want to respect that. You are going to have to decide if thatās a dealbreaker for you, because I donāt think there are magic words that will get him to agree on this one.
posted by Stacey at 12:52 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
I have been in your position and also felt I needed the affair partner to not be part of our lives going forward to even attempt to repair the damage. My then-partner did not take that as a bid for a negotiation, they said yes, I get that, it is a reasonable consequence of my actions, and they as far as I know never contacted that person again.
You donāt want to budge on this and your partner does not want to respect that. You are going to have to decide if thatās a dealbreaker for you, because I donāt think there are magic words that will get him to agree on this one.
posted by Stacey at 12:52 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes
THIS, my friend, is where I stopped reading. This is gaslighting in the first degree. We are not in grade school and it doesn't matter what all the cool kids are doing.
This is a claim made my someone who is openly ignoring what you'd want if you were in your shoes. Which ... as it turns out ... you are in your shoes! You know what you want. What anyone else wants or think they -would- want doesn't matter at all. R should want ... to learn what you want, and what he can do to get you what you want; unfortunately, he doesn't care what you want, and that's what he's telling you.
You want to be in a monogamous relationship, and that's perfectly valid and understandable.
You're entirely correct, I'm very sorry you're in this place, and I hope in a year you post again from a much better place.
posted by Dashy at 1:33 PM on November 7 [24 favorites]
THIS, my friend, is where I stopped reading. This is gaslighting in the first degree. We are not in grade school and it doesn't matter what all the cool kids are doing.
This is a claim made my someone who is openly ignoring what you'd want if you were in your shoes. Which ... as it turns out ... you are in your shoes! You know what you want. What anyone else wants or think they -would- want doesn't matter at all. R should want ... to learn what you want, and what he can do to get you what you want; unfortunately, he doesn't care what you want, and that's what he's telling you.
You want to be in a monogamous relationship, and that's perfectly valid and understandable.
You're entirely correct, I'm very sorry you're in this place, and I hope in a year you post again from a much better place.
posted by Dashy at 1:33 PM on November 7 [24 favorites]
B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this
Did you discuss this with B's newish spouse directly, or did R & B pass this helpful information along?
The answer to this shouldn't change how you feel, but I'd consider this information suspect unless the spouse communicated it to you themselves. R is going to say whatever they think will shift your opinion.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:34 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]
Did you discuss this with B's newish spouse directly, or did R & B pass this helpful information along?
The answer to this shouldn't change how you feel, but I'd consider this information suspect unless the spouse communicated it to you themselves. R is going to say whatever they think will shift your opinion.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:34 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]
Oh he gets it loud and clear like many people have already said. He gets it so loud and clear that he's making it really painfully obvious that he gets it and also that he doesn't care how you feel because he's going to do whatever he wants to do.
So let's just play a thought experiment and say that he would be totally cool and chill if the roles were reversed. He would have zero issues with it. So what? This isn't about what he hypothetically would totally be cool with. This is about you not being cool with it and also mainly about how he gives zero fucks about that. Like that's the actual issue not his imaginary lack of an issue.
Ask yourself why you want to stay with someone who does shit like this:
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later
You're right that I don't need any more details to know that you deserve better than this.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:18 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]
So let's just play a thought experiment and say that he would be totally cool and chill if the roles were reversed. He would have zero issues with it. So what? This isn't about what he hypothetically would totally be cool with. This is about you not being cool with it and also mainly about how he gives zero fucks about that. Like that's the actual issue not his imaginary lack of an issue.
Ask yourself why you want to stay with someone who does shit like this:
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later
You're right that I don't need any more details to know that you deserve better than this.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:18 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]
I am 100% against the restarting of this "friendship," and I have explained to R more than once (more than twice) why I am setting this boundary. He somehow isn't getting it. (B's new-ish spouse is apparently OK with this, and R claims he'd be OK with it if he were in my shoes.)
I was once part of a support committee through my Quaker meeting for a couple that had gone through this same thing. The one who had the emotional affair really struggled with letting go. but it was a real turning point when he finally understood why he not only had to have no ongoing contact with his affair partner, but that he needed to delete all their emails back and forth. It was hard for him, but it was really important for him to make that clean break as part of re-committing to the marriage. (They are still together 25+ years later.)
In your shoes, this would be a hard limit for me. Your spouse is, as others have said, creating a narrative for himself where it's OK for him to maintain this tie, but it's really not.
One thing I learned in my relationship of 30 years was that explaining things to get my partner to understand them was pretty much futile. He had this bad habit (to my mind) of not agreeing to something I asked for unless he also agreed it was a good idea. For thirty years, he would bring in the mail after work and would not put it in my in-box as I had asked him to do hundreds of times. He would either hand it to me, when I might be, say, on the couch with a baby I'd finally gotten to sleep and couldn't possibly deal with it, or just set it down someplace random-ish. I finally learned that I could affirm my own boundary whether he "understood" it and agreed with it or not. (The last five years of the relationship was me learning to do this. Sadly, it led to me leaving him.)
So, explaining and explaining and explaining can be, with some people, a losing battle. But you can say: "Unless you agree to cut ties with this person, I am going to have to [leave, move out for awhile, whatever you choose to take care of yourself]."
Follow-through is the hard part, of course.
I am sending you all my support and as much strength as I can spare.
posted by Well I never at 2:24 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]
I was once part of a support committee through my Quaker meeting for a couple that had gone through this same thing. The one who had the emotional affair really struggled with letting go. but it was a real turning point when he finally understood why he not only had to have no ongoing contact with his affair partner, but that he needed to delete all their emails back and forth. It was hard for him, but it was really important for him to make that clean break as part of re-committing to the marriage. (They are still together 25+ years later.)
In your shoes, this would be a hard limit for me. Your spouse is, as others have said, creating a narrative for himself where it's OK for him to maintain this tie, but it's really not.
One thing I learned in my relationship of 30 years was that explaining things to get my partner to understand them was pretty much futile. He had this bad habit (to my mind) of not agreeing to something I asked for unless he also agreed it was a good idea. For thirty years, he would bring in the mail after work and would not put it in my in-box as I had asked him to do hundreds of times. He would either hand it to me, when I might be, say, on the couch with a baby I'd finally gotten to sleep and couldn't possibly deal with it, or just set it down someplace random-ish. I finally learned that I could affirm my own boundary whether he "understood" it and agreed with it or not. (The last five years of the relationship was me learning to do this. Sadly, it led to me leaving him.)
So, explaining and explaining and explaining can be, with some people, a losing battle. But you can say: "Unless you agree to cut ties with this person, I am going to have to [leave, move out for awhile, whatever you choose to take care of yourself]."
Follow-through is the hard part, of course.
I am sending you all my support and as much strength as I can spare.
posted by Well I never at 2:24 PM on November 7 [10 favorites]
Nope.
(I would say more but that's all there is to say.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:42 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]
(I would say more but that's all there is to say.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:42 PM on November 7 [6 favorites]
I had an emotional affair when I was married, and I did end it, which was super hard. It had started as a friendship, and it was very hard to lose both the emotional connection and the friendship. It took a long time to extricate myself emotionally.
A few years (and I mean maybe at least four or five?) later, I was over it, and I could have normal interactions with that person, but that was also after my own marriage ended. In my case, the emotional affair was the symptom, not the cause, of problems in my marriage.
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later
My skeptical self is thinking that they met up to reinitiate their affair, and they are talking about friendships with their spouses as a mechanism to cover up the affair.
I'm sorry, but I don't think your partner is truly interested in relationship repair with you, not enough to let the other person go.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:33 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
A few years (and I mean maybe at least four or five?) later, I was over it, and I could have normal interactions with that person, but that was also after my own marriage ended. In my case, the emotional affair was the symptom, not the cause, of problems in my marriage.
R met up with B twice, a couple months ago, to jointly decide on whether they wanted to have a friendship again, and THEN didn't tell me until a few weeks later
My skeptical self is thinking that they met up to reinitiate their affair, and they are talking about friendships with their spouses as a mechanism to cover up the affair.
I'm sorry, but I don't think your partner is truly interested in relationship repair with you, not enough to let the other person go.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:33 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
Your partner doesn't need to understand things. They need to want to make you feel safe and loved, and not hurt you, even if that means doing something that doesn't quite make sense to them.
Sorry, but it sounds like that's not where they are. It might be worth one more conversation about the bottom line, but after that, I think you have to decide whether or not you are prepared to live with the emotional presence of this third party in your relationship.
posted by rpfields at 3:46 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
Sorry, but it sounds like that's not where they are. It might be worth one more conversation about the bottom line, but after that, I think you have to decide whether or not you are prepared to live with the emotional presence of this third party in your relationship.
posted by rpfields at 3:46 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
Hm. I guess I feel differently than most of the commenters here. I don't think it's reasonable to ask another human being to end an attachment bond just because you feel threatened. People get to choose who they interact with and fundamentally I think it's unjust to control someone else's relationships. Even if you're married! You can say "This arrangement doesn't work for me, if it keeps on I won't want to do this anymore" but that's very different than "You need to change so I feel secure." The affair has already happened so R & B are connected. Should B just become a non-entity now, when they already have a place in R's life? I find that dehumanizing. It's hard and messy, but the truth is you're sharing space with someone else and you have been for some time. I sincerely think that being forced to cut off this relationship will build up huge resentment for R, possibly leading to the dissolution of your marriage, unless he chooses this idea for his own reasons. I'd ask yourself: what does it look like for you to be a priority to R? Is it more about exclusivity or quality of connection? Are they one and the same? In which realms does each matter?
It makes sense that you're furious, betrayed and skeptical. The breach was bigā you thought your marriage was one thing and you've found out it's another. Your partner kept huge parts of his inner world from you and that has created enormous emotional distance. (Possibly you have done the same without cheating.) If R still wants you and isn't using this affair/friendship as a ticket out, I wonder if he's poly or monogamish and just starting to come to terms with it. Many people discover this later in life and it's fair if that's a dealbreaker for you. If sexual desire isn't a factor with B, it could also be that R enjoys queerplatonic levels of intensity and commitment.
What concerns me most is how you describe the breakdown in communication and empathy between you two. Neither of you is really able to see the other person's side. First order of business, your partner has to stop maneuvering evasively if he wants to rebuild trust. No more doing things behind your back. He has to own up to his real wishes, even if you don't want to hear them, and you have to be able to take in that information without punishing him for saying difficult things.
It's great that you're already in counseling. I like Secure Love and The High-Conflict Couple for improving communication and building a more secure bond. Polysecure and Polywise ask insightful questions about attachment and are helpful for navigating betrayal and jealousy, even if your relationship stays closed/monogamous. Good luck!
posted by lloquat at 4:11 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]
It makes sense that you're furious, betrayed and skeptical. The breach was bigā you thought your marriage was one thing and you've found out it's another. Your partner kept huge parts of his inner world from you and that has created enormous emotional distance. (Possibly you have done the same without cheating.) If R still wants you and isn't using this affair/friendship as a ticket out, I wonder if he's poly or monogamish and just starting to come to terms with it. Many people discover this later in life and it's fair if that's a dealbreaker for you. If sexual desire isn't a factor with B, it could also be that R enjoys queerplatonic levels of intensity and commitment.
What concerns me most is how you describe the breakdown in communication and empathy between you two. Neither of you is really able to see the other person's side. First order of business, your partner has to stop maneuvering evasively if he wants to rebuild trust. No more doing things behind your back. He has to own up to his real wishes, even if you don't want to hear them, and you have to be able to take in that information without punishing him for saying difficult things.
It's great that you're already in counseling. I like Secure Love and The High-Conflict Couple for improving communication and building a more secure bond. Polysecure and Polywise ask insightful questions about attachment and are helpful for navigating betrayal and jealousy, even if your relationship stays closed/monogamous. Good luck!
posted by lloquat at 4:11 PM on November 7 [7 favorites]
I would be more cool with this if he came to you first because that would indicate that he is respectful of your feelings and understands the actual harm that he caused. But them meeting up in private to talk about this shit behind your back, like theyāre the real couple and you are just mean mom/dad who needs to give permission? Nah. Fuck that.
posted by knobknosher at 4:20 PM on November 7 [17 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 4:20 PM on November 7 [17 favorites]
>it's common sense for repairing our relationship.
Have you asked R, do you want to repair this relationship? Or stay in this relationship? If yes, what did he say?
Stop explaining. He DOES get it; he just doesn't want to stop. He's lied and he is gaslighting you.
Out of curiosity, what are your reasons for wanting to stay in this relationship?
posted by foxjacket at 5:47 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
Have you asked R, do you want to repair this relationship? Or stay in this relationship? If yes, what did he say?
Stop explaining. He DOES get it; he just doesn't want to stop. He's lied and he is gaslighting you.
Out of curiosity, what are your reasons for wanting to stay in this relationship?
posted by foxjacket at 5:47 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
They met up behind your back? Kind of sounds like heās still having an affair with her, honestly.
posted by meowmeowdream at 9:10 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]
posted by meowmeowdream at 9:10 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]
I'm curious what you are both saying to the therapist and what advice you are being given. R needs to hear and understand that his actions are causing more harm, not repairing anything and then stop going behind your back.
R isn't in your shoes and doesn't even seem to be trying to walk an inch, let alone a mile in your shoes, so they should not be telling you how to feel. R wants to be trusted to carry on a friendship with B, but continues to behave in an untrustworthy manner.
You are both at an impasse and I would hope that the therapist can either help you get past this or jointly realize that you can no longer move forward together and separate.
posted by brookeb at 9:14 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]
R isn't in your shoes and doesn't even seem to be trying to walk an inch, let alone a mile in your shoes, so they should not be telling you how to feel. R wants to be trusted to carry on a friendship with B, but continues to behave in an untrustworthy manner.
You are both at an impasse and I would hope that the therapist can either help you get past this or jointly realize that you can no longer move forward together and separate.
posted by brookeb at 9:14 PM on November 7 [1 favorite]
Wow. This question brought back so many memories for me. My ex-husband, C, had an emotional affair with a woman I worked with, D. D stopped talking to me at all, even though we had been good work friends, when I questioned C about the amount of time he was spending with D. It was all pretty awful, because I had to continue working alongside D, sometimes staying late while she went out and did things with C, essentially facilitating their time together. Eventually (for this and other reasons) C and I separated for some months with me saying I would not return until things were resolved with D.
For the entire time I was separated from C,(living in another country) he continued to see D and to lie to me about them spending time together. At one point D was living in my marital home. Obviously, by this time it had progressed beyond an 'emotional' affair. Still C continued to lie about his spending time with D and I had to rely on the testimony of friends who told me she was living in my home. She even painted my kitchen!
C and I eventually reconciled and spent nearly ten years together afterward. He never came clean about the relationship, never apologized and met up with D more than once for coffee. Frankly, I never moved on from it. It was the deceit that I could never forgive. It was always there, for all the years afterward, no matter how much time elapsed. I could not forget that he was a liar and that I could not trust him. Really, I was being dishonest, too because I never shared with him my total lack of trust in him and he thought everything was 'okay'. The day he drove off after we split for good, I felt like I had been reborn. The weight of the distrust and resentment was a huge burden I didn't fully understand until it was lifted from my shoulders.
Like some people have said, many couples can live with multiple intimate friendships. I believe this to be true. But if your spouse lies to you and sneaks around, it's entirely different, especially if they refuse to see what the problem is with their behaviour. If you no longer trust your spouse and if you are unable to let go of your feelings of betrayal, my advice is to move on and live a life where suspicion and duplicity aren't part of your daily existence.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 9:46 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]
For the entire time I was separated from C,(living in another country) he continued to see D and to lie to me about them spending time together. At one point D was living in my marital home. Obviously, by this time it had progressed beyond an 'emotional' affair. Still C continued to lie about his spending time with D and I had to rely on the testimony of friends who told me she was living in my home. She even painted my kitchen!
C and I eventually reconciled and spent nearly ten years together afterward. He never came clean about the relationship, never apologized and met up with D more than once for coffee. Frankly, I never moved on from it. It was the deceit that I could never forgive. It was always there, for all the years afterward, no matter how much time elapsed. I could not forget that he was a liar and that I could not trust him. Really, I was being dishonest, too because I never shared with him my total lack of trust in him and he thought everything was 'okay'. The day he drove off after we split for good, I felt like I had been reborn. The weight of the distrust and resentment was a huge burden I didn't fully understand until it was lifted from my shoulders.
Like some people have said, many couples can live with multiple intimate friendships. I believe this to be true. But if your spouse lies to you and sneaks around, it's entirely different, especially if they refuse to see what the problem is with their behaviour. If you no longer trust your spouse and if you are unable to let go of your feelings of betrayal, my advice is to move on and live a life where suspicion and duplicity aren't part of your daily existence.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 9:46 PM on November 7 [12 favorites]
I don't think it's ethical to attempt to control who other people spend their time with. I have high expectations of my relationships, and expect to be treated well and with honesty. I also expect my partners to include me in their life choices, to be emotionally supportive, and to have the time availability to build a life together. If they do those things, I don't have reason to complain about what happens outside of that.
Given the other things you are describing here, I suspect your partner is not doing the things you want in your relationship. Like, maybe if they discard this other person it will help you feel safer and will feel like an appropriate gesture (and punishment), but it is unlikely that it will make them suddenly behave like a good, reliable, trustworthy partner. So think hard on whether you want to stay with them, and whether their behavior fulfills your needs.
posted by metasarah at 9:49 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
Given the other things you are describing here, I suspect your partner is not doing the things you want in your relationship. Like, maybe if they discard this other person it will help you feel safer and will feel like an appropriate gesture (and punishment), but it is unlikely that it will make them suddenly behave like a good, reliable, trustworthy partner. So think hard on whether you want to stay with them, and whether their behavior fulfills your needs.
posted by metasarah at 9:49 PM on November 7 [3 favorites]
As already amply said here, he gets your request perfectly well. He just isnāt willing to do it. Iāve been on all sides of this, at various points, and knowing now what I do I would see meeting up with her to discuss the relationship as a deal breaker by itself. Iām sorry.
I genuinely do believe, by the way, that people can have close and incredibly important friendships with people to whom they could be attracted, even when married. But this does not look like what you are describing.
posted by frumiousb at 10:26 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
I genuinely do believe, by the way, that people can have close and incredibly important friendships with people to whom they could be attracted, even when married. But this does not look like what you are describing.
posted by frumiousb at 10:26 PM on November 7 [4 favorites]
And you did not ask this, but time to lawyer up.
posted by frumiousb at 1:48 AM on November 8 [8 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 1:48 AM on November 8 [8 favorites]
What I did to create some change in a situation like yours was to change my attitude and my "refrain." It wasn't something I set out to doāit came out of emotional exhaustion and paralysis. It came after the hard realization that all I'd been doing for a year+ is try to find the right word salad that would unlock truth and comprehension. But I agree with others. He comprehends. He comprehends so well that he:
- conceived the need
- to plan
- to meet
- with B
- covertly
- so that he and B could have a conversation
- as equal partners and decision-makers, and
- come to an agreement
- in advance
- about their relationship
- a decision-making partnership he is not offering you
- and an event which he withheld from you for months until
- he wanted to
- tell you.
So what did I do? Once I got it through my head that the essential qualities of my "partner" were deception & selfishness (decepfishness? selfishception? we need some new words.) I was lost. I even read up on lying theory. (When gaslighting meets imposter syndrome: "Maybe I'm not understanding betrayal correctly?") But no, there were multiple kinds of deceit and he was doing them all. How could I trust this person? Ever? About anything? How could I move our relationship forward without trust? Without them even agreeing to meet basic agreements, to zero out to a place of trust, so we could perhaps start again?
I spent an unknown amount of time lost in that sea of confusion, directionless, plying the doldrums of love and life, shaking my fists at the sky. All while trying to keep the rather rickety ship afloat, of course. (Riggings don't rig themselves, especially when half the crew isn't helping!). But where was I? Right, I was lost about where to go from there: how could I fix our relationship?
It dawned on meāand it might have been an actual dawn that coincided with the revelation, or maybe a lighthouse or beacon, or even just a rock that was substantial enough that I could use it to navigate byāit dawned on me that I could, in a way, trust this person. And that realization brought the change in attitude. It becalmed me. Instead of the refrain of requests I'd been making, requests like:
- please stop lying to me,
- please be fully and proactively honest with me
- please stop seeing that person,
- please share your social media with me
- please put our relationship first
- please make choices that benefit our relationship the most
- please etc.
I switched my refrain to:
"I trust you completelyā¦. ...I trust you to lie to get what you want even if it breaks our relationship agreements."
Wow, did that make him angry! Suddenly I was the a**hole, I was the problem in our relationship, I was the disrespectful one, the one who didn't care enough, I was always going to be moving the goalposts, he was never going to be able to prove himself, there was always going to be a hoop he'd have to jump through.
He'd push back and accuse, "You don't trust me, you have to trust me, I'm being totally honest with you, you're a b*tch for not trusting me." And I could truly, calmly, genuinely reply, "I trust you completely." Wait, what? You do? "Yes, I trust you to lie to get what you want even if it breaks our relationship agreements."
It was tempting (I was tempted) to open up the statement for re-negotiation. Like, 'Ok, that upsets you? I don't want it to be upsetting. I want to repair and move forward. Tell me what I can trust you on?' But there had already been no making right, no contrition, no admission of the quality and the quantity of betrayal. In my case, not just the original/actual betrayals, but the times I'd noticed things and opened discussion to talk about what I was noticing, only to be told I was crazy.
It was totally the relationship version of "I'm striding ahead on the trail and it's your job to either keep up or shut up because I'm going to enjoy this trail the way I want to, but first did you pack snacks because I'm going to wait for you to catch up every once in a while and ask you for them. Enjoy the view."
Using language to simply notice and describe reality, instead of getting stuck in the āwishing languageā of requests, was a good step for me. It helped that one of us was operating in reality. It really helped me that it was me. (I ended the relationship.)
posted by cocoagirl at 3:56 AM on November 8 [19 favorites]
- conceived the need
- to plan
- to meet
- with B
- covertly
- so that he and B could have a conversation
- as equal partners and decision-makers, and
- come to an agreement
- in advance
- about their relationship
- a decision-making partnership he is not offering you
- and an event which he withheld from you for months until
- he wanted to
- tell you.
So what did I do? Once I got it through my head that the essential qualities of my "partner" were deception & selfishness (decepfishness? selfishception? we need some new words.) I was lost. I even read up on lying theory. (When gaslighting meets imposter syndrome: "Maybe I'm not understanding betrayal correctly?") But no, there were multiple kinds of deceit and he was doing them all. How could I trust this person? Ever? About anything? How could I move our relationship forward without trust? Without them even agreeing to meet basic agreements, to zero out to a place of trust, so we could perhaps start again?
I spent an unknown amount of time lost in that sea of confusion, directionless, plying the doldrums of love and life, shaking my fists at the sky. All while trying to keep the rather rickety ship afloat, of course. (Riggings don't rig themselves, especially when half the crew isn't helping!). But where was I? Right, I was lost about where to go from there: how could I fix our relationship?
It dawned on meāand it might have been an actual dawn that coincided with the revelation, or maybe a lighthouse or beacon, or even just a rock that was substantial enough that I could use it to navigate byāit dawned on me that I could, in a way, trust this person. And that realization brought the change in attitude. It becalmed me. Instead of the refrain of requests I'd been making, requests like:
- please stop lying to me,
- please be fully and proactively honest with me
- please stop seeing that person,
- please share your social media with me
- please put our relationship first
- please make choices that benefit our relationship the most
- please etc.
I switched my refrain to:
"I trust you completelyā¦. ...I trust you to lie to get what you want even if it breaks our relationship agreements."
Wow, did that make him angry! Suddenly I was the a**hole, I was the problem in our relationship, I was the disrespectful one, the one who didn't care enough, I was always going to be moving the goalposts, he was never going to be able to prove himself, there was always going to be a hoop he'd have to jump through.
He'd push back and accuse, "You don't trust me, you have to trust me, I'm being totally honest with you, you're a b*tch for not trusting me." And I could truly, calmly, genuinely reply, "I trust you completely." Wait, what? You do? "Yes, I trust you to lie to get what you want even if it breaks our relationship agreements."
It was tempting (I was tempted) to open up the statement for re-negotiation. Like, 'Ok, that upsets you? I don't want it to be upsetting. I want to repair and move forward. Tell me what I can trust you on?' But there had already been no making right, no contrition, no admission of the quality and the quantity of betrayal. In my case, not just the original/actual betrayals, but the times I'd noticed things and opened discussion to talk about what I was noticing, only to be told I was crazy.
It was totally the relationship version of "I'm striding ahead on the trail and it's your job to either keep up or shut up because I'm going to enjoy this trail the way I want to, but first did you pack snacks because I'm going to wait for you to catch up every once in a while and ask you for them. Enjoy the view."
Using language to simply notice and describe reality, instead of getting stuck in the āwishing languageā of requests, was a good step for me. It helped that one of us was operating in reality. It really helped me that it was me. (I ended the relationship.)
posted by cocoagirl at 3:56 AM on November 8 [19 favorites]
One of my personal policies is this: if any person presents me with an ultimatum that forces me to choose between maintaining any kind of relationship with them and maintaining a friendship with somebody else, I will choose the friendship. End of.
I absolutely abhor coercive control within intimate relationships, and have no more interest in subjecting myself to it than in inflicting it on a partner. Which is why I would never have married anybody who would seek to put themself in charge of who else I may or may not spend time with.
This policy goes hand in glove with another: I keep my promises. Having exchanged marriage vows that amount to promises to be and keep on being open and supportive and truthful and emotionally available and sexually exclusive, then that is what I do.
I perceive no inherent conflict between being emotionally open and supportive and available for my partner and being likewise with and for close friends, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. Where practical conflicts arise, for example having to do with time management or physical availability, then I do my level best to make sure ms flabdablet automatically wins them. Again, personal policy. And my friends understand and accept this, because if they didn't then they wouldn't be the kind of person I would ever have been friends with in the first place.
Both of us have friends with whom we click in ways and/or about things that we don't with each other, and although some of those friendships could easily be seen as emotional affairs by people inclined to look at things through that kind of lens, our marriage remains rock solid and neither of us wants out, exactly because neither of us chooses to look through that kind of lens. Both of us consider the idea that any person could get every need met by just one other person to be absurd on its face.
Neither of us tells lies to the other either, and each of us will take "I don't want to answer that" as an acceptable initial response to pretty much any question. Both of us can and do honour and respect that kind of request for privacy exactly because we choose to trust each other to keep the promises we made when we married.
Neither of us, to the best of my recollection, has ever asked to see the other's unlocked phone. We don't have to. We know each other's phone PINs and computer passwords and have never made any attempt to keep our IT gear physically secured against each other. Sometimes I might go through her old texts or emails looking for somebody's contact details or a receipt or an e-prescription or whatever, and she might likewise go through mine. It's just not an issue.
And you know what? I cannot recommend strongly enough that people adopt these same attitudes and policies and live this way. It's just so free of fraught.
But it obviously can't work without both trust and trustworthiness. So if you're no longer prepared to extend trust, possibly on the basis that your partner has already betrayed such trust as he's been given, or even just because you don't feel like it: DTMFA so you can both start over with somebody else.
If you are prepared to extend trust because you're convinced he's now made a genuine and effective effort to become trustworthy, then I strongly recommend you just do that instead of trying to control who he can and cannot hang out with. Having it both ways doesn't really work.
posted by flabdablet at 5:01 AM on November 8 [4 favorites]
I absolutely abhor coercive control within intimate relationships, and have no more interest in subjecting myself to it than in inflicting it on a partner. Which is why I would never have married anybody who would seek to put themself in charge of who else I may or may not spend time with.
This policy goes hand in glove with another: I keep my promises. Having exchanged marriage vows that amount to promises to be and keep on being open and supportive and truthful and emotionally available and sexually exclusive, then that is what I do.
I perceive no inherent conflict between being emotionally open and supportive and available for my partner and being likewise with and for close friends, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. Where practical conflicts arise, for example having to do with time management or physical availability, then I do my level best to make sure ms flabdablet automatically wins them. Again, personal policy. And my friends understand and accept this, because if they didn't then they wouldn't be the kind of person I would ever have been friends with in the first place.
Both of us have friends with whom we click in ways and/or about things that we don't with each other, and although some of those friendships could easily be seen as emotional affairs by people inclined to look at things through that kind of lens, our marriage remains rock solid and neither of us wants out, exactly because neither of us chooses to look through that kind of lens. Both of us consider the idea that any person could get every need met by just one other person to be absurd on its face.
Neither of us tells lies to the other either, and each of us will take "I don't want to answer that" as an acceptable initial response to pretty much any question. Both of us can and do honour and respect that kind of request for privacy exactly because we choose to trust each other to keep the promises we made when we married.
Neither of us, to the best of my recollection, has ever asked to see the other's unlocked phone. We don't have to. We know each other's phone PINs and computer passwords and have never made any attempt to keep our IT gear physically secured against each other. Sometimes I might go through her old texts or emails looking for somebody's contact details or a receipt or an e-prescription or whatever, and she might likewise go through mine. It's just not an issue.
And you know what? I cannot recommend strongly enough that people adopt these same attitudes and policies and live this way. It's just so free of fraught.
But it obviously can't work without both trust and trustworthiness. So if you're no longer prepared to extend trust, possibly on the basis that your partner has already betrayed such trust as he's been given, or even just because you don't feel like it: DTMFA so you can both start over with somebody else.
If you are prepared to extend trust because you're convinced he's now made a genuine and effective effort to become trustworthy, then I strongly recommend you just do that instead of trying to control who he can and cannot hang out with. Having it both ways doesn't really work.
posted by flabdablet at 5:01 AM on November 8 [4 favorites]
Huh. It appears I did have something else to say.
People tend to minimize emotional affairs, even to themselves. The fact that you even needed to ask this question makes me think you are underestimating the betrayal.
So letās put it another way: letās say he was fucking them. At work, in bar bathrooms, in your house, while you were in next to each other in bed, while you were having sex ā basically all the same places that their affection was focused on their other partner and not on you. That last is the worst; he was having sex with you while thinking about them.
Would any healthy person accept even the chance of that invasion again? Your husband is clearly willing to risk a replay of that, and having this person in his life raises the odds significantly. Your husband needs to get his shit together and take his betrayal seriously, or you have very good reason to never trust him again.
tl;dr Emotional affairs are a Big Deal and if your partner doesnāt get that then you are just waiting around for it to happen again.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:37 AM on November 8 [5 favorites]
People tend to minimize emotional affairs, even to themselves. The fact that you even needed to ask this question makes me think you are underestimating the betrayal.
So letās put it another way: letās say he was fucking them. At work, in bar bathrooms, in your house, while you were in next to each other in bed, while you were having sex ā basically all the same places that their affection was focused on their other partner and not on you. That last is the worst; he was having sex with you while thinking about them.
Would any healthy person accept even the chance of that invasion again? Your husband is clearly willing to risk a replay of that, and having this person in his life raises the odds significantly. Your husband needs to get his shit together and take his betrayal seriously, or you have very good reason to never trust him again.
tl;dr Emotional affairs are a Big Deal and if your partner doesnāt get that then you are just waiting around for it to happen again.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:37 AM on November 8 [5 favorites]
Nonmonogamy and other peopleās arrangements in their relationships are a red herring here. You get to be in whatever relationship you want to be in. So does he. What he doesnāt get to do is lie about it, deceive you, or pretend not to understand your position in order to avoid the pesky issue of your consent.
posted by knobknosher at 4:53 PM on November 8 [6 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 4:53 PM on November 8 [6 favorites]
You get to be in whatever relationship you want to be in. So does he.
Just not necessarily with each other, is the point.
What he doesnāt get to do is lie about it, deceive you, or pretend not to understand your position in order to avoid the pesky issue of your consent.
That strikes me as both a completely sound code of personal conduct and an absolutely necessary boundary for anybody involved in an intimate relationship to maintain.
Intimacy is rooted in trust, and if trust is betrayed then intimacy is destroyed and the nature of the relationship irreversibly changed, whether the participants explicitly declare that to be the case or not.
People can choose to stay partners after that kind of intimacy loss. Some might even do so because they still love their deceitful partner and find that having them in their lives is preferable even given the lost intimacy. But in most cases, better long-term outcomes can be had by walking away from a betrayal and finding somebody else who won't do that.
Being careful with promises is important, too. Promises that aren't kept are not really promises, they're just sales pitches. If you can't keep them, don't make them.
posted by flabdablet at 12:04 AM on November 9 [4 favorites]
Just not necessarily with each other, is the point.
What he doesnāt get to do is lie about it, deceive you, or pretend not to understand your position in order to avoid the pesky issue of your consent.
That strikes me as both a completely sound code of personal conduct and an absolutely necessary boundary for anybody involved in an intimate relationship to maintain.
Intimacy is rooted in trust, and if trust is betrayed then intimacy is destroyed and the nature of the relationship irreversibly changed, whether the participants explicitly declare that to be the case or not.
People can choose to stay partners after that kind of intimacy loss. Some might even do so because they still love their deceitful partner and find that having them in their lives is preferable even given the lost intimacy. But in most cases, better long-term outcomes can be had by walking away from a betrayal and finding somebody else who won't do that.
Being careful with promises is important, too. Promises that aren't kept are not really promises, they're just sales pitches. If you can't keep them, don't make them.
posted by flabdablet at 12:04 AM on November 9 [4 favorites]
I don't understand what is to be gained from staying in this simulacra of a marriage? Is it because of kids? Finances? Whatever it is, I would try to figure a way out of it, and let him go be with his primary, B.
If you absolutely must stay married, at least open it up all the way so that you, too, can have a sexy bestie relationship and enjoy someone who puts you higher on their scale of pleasure and regard. Sorry, anon, but there is nothing confusing about your request, and I don't understand why he's pretending there is. He is saying "having betrayed you once with this person, I've now made plans with them to do it again, just in a different way ... or let's be honest, probably in the same way."
posted by taz at 5:00 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
If you absolutely must stay married, at least open it up all the way so that you, too, can have a sexy bestie relationship and enjoy someone who puts you higher on their scale of pleasure and regard. Sorry, anon, but there is nothing confusing about your request, and I don't understand why he's pretending there is. He is saying "having betrayed you once with this person, I've now made plans with them to do it again, just in a different way ... or let's be honest, probably in the same way."
posted by taz at 5:00 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
So heās decided to continue the emotional affair. (You can call it a friendship if you want but everyone knows what it is). There are no magical words you can use to explain your boundary about this. He already knows you donāt like it, he just doesnāt care.
At this point, they are the primary couple. We know this because R is putting that relationship above yours and youāre on the outside looking in.
Iād go so far as to say that heās told you about this specifically because you set that boundary so youāll be the one to end your relationship and be the bad guy. (It was just a friendship and I actually TOLD you about it, I didnāt even hide it!)
That way they can ride off into the sunset with a
clean conscience and tell everyone that you two tried counselling, nothing worked, you ended it even though R tried to patch it up and they got together once you two had broken up.
I hate to say it but your relationship is over, heās just too gutless to call it. And good riddance too. Send B a gift basket for taking R off your hands.
posted by Jubey at 5:48 AM on November 21 [2 favorites]
At this point, they are the primary couple. We know this because R is putting that relationship above yours and youāre on the outside looking in.
Iād go so far as to say that heās told you about this specifically because you set that boundary so youāll be the one to end your relationship and be the bad guy. (It was just a friendship and I actually TOLD you about it, I didnāt even hide it!)
That way they can ride off into the sunset with a
clean conscience and tell everyone that you two tried counselling, nothing worked, you ended it even though R tried to patch it up and they got together once you two had broken up.
I hate to say it but your relationship is over, heās just too gutless to call it. And good riddance too. Send B a gift basket for taking R off your hands.
posted by Jubey at 5:48 AM on November 21 [2 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks so, so much for the advice and support. Things have gotten worse instead of better, my husband has said some (more) upsetting things, and I can tell this marriage is not salvageable. I filed for divorce this week and told my husband last night. He was surprised (!) and brought up the idea of a separation, but I declined. I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders and feel hope for the future, though I know this will be a very difficult process. Thanks again to all, and take care.posted by loup (staff) at 10:14 AM on November 22 [6 favorites]
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posted by juniper at 11:44 AM on November 7 [22 favorites]