On the specifics of selling your soul.
November 3, 2024 1:06 PM Subscribe
Thinking about the Faust story and the fairly common trope of making a "deal with the devil", looking into things, it's been strangely difficult to find examples of the trope before the 18th century except a small handful of works. Is the notion of the "deal with the devil" a fairly modern phenomenon, or are there far earlier works I'm missing? It seems strange that this is a modern trope.
Early Medieval Irish folklore had the Aos Sí (e.g. The Fair Folk) who were famous for making deals with extremely tricky terms and dire consequences for not meeting them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:21 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:21 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm not going to threadsit, but I think I should have clarified that I'm interested more in stories about deals being made with the Judeo-Christian notion of Satan or "The Devil" before the 18th century than with the larger trope of jinn or other tricksters in general.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:28 PM on November 3
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:28 PM on November 3
Some would say that God makes a deal with the devil in the book of Job.
posted by Ausamor at 1:32 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 1:32 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
It's not a modern trope. You can't exactly rely on Wikipedia to be comprehensive on the premodern. Here is a collection of examples.
("Faust" was based on a sixteenth-century person, so "his" specific story is of course no earlier than that.)
posted by praemunire at 1:33 PM on November 3 [2 favorites]
("Faust" was based on a sixteenth-century person, so "his" specific story is of course no earlier than that.)
posted by praemunire at 1:33 PM on November 3 [2 favorites]
The first story based on Faust appeared in 1593 and he became regular touchstone in the 1600s. As far as I can tell that's when the topic became popularized.
However, the bible has notable examples of Satan tempting people -- e.g. attempting to make a deal -- but failing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
However, the bible has notable examples of Satan tempting people -- e.g. attempting to make a deal -- but failing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
The Twardowski legend (based on a real astrologer) in Poland dates back to the 16th century and features a deal with a devil that ends with the dealmaker being dropped on the moon because he repents as the devil is carrying him off to hell. Many other Polish legends explicitly feature devils after people's souls and wearing Pluderhosen to signify being dressed up as foreigners / Germans - which would point to the 16th and 17th century as well.
Even older may be the Munich Frauenkirche legend, where the architect made a deal with the devil in the 15th century to enable the cathedral to be finished within his lifetime. In that one, as in many Central and Eastern European legends, the devil is outwitted and leaves without a soul.
And a Swiss bridge is supposed to have been built by the devil in a bridge-for-soul deal in the 13th century, with the legend being first recorded in the 16th. This trope goes back a long way, possibly to the moment each land converted to Christianity and started calling the old spirits devils.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:10 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
Even older may be the Munich Frauenkirche legend, where the architect made a deal with the devil in the 15th century to enable the cathedral to be finished within his lifetime. In that one, as in many Central and Eastern European legends, the devil is outwitted and leaves without a soul.
And a Swiss bridge is supposed to have been built by the devil in a bridge-for-soul deal in the 13th century, with the legend being first recorded in the 16th. This trope goes back a long way, possibly to the moment each land converted to Christianity and started calling the old spirits devils.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:10 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
I get why you used the phrase (you just mean Christian, though. Jews don't have a tradition of a physical Satan) but there's no such thing as a "judeo-christain" notion of Satan or otherwise. Also, considering the...tumultuous relationship between the parties, when Orwell used it to mean some sort of shared ethical tradition, it was taken as mostly offensive/with great irony. Finally, the phrase tends to be used to other Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.
Ok, sorry, back to your regular programming.
posted by atomicstone at 3:01 PM on November 3 [10 favorites]
Ok, sorry, back to your regular programming.
posted by atomicstone at 3:01 PM on November 3 [10 favorites]
Isn't the Temptation of Christ in the New Testament the source of the idea? "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." (Matthew 4:9).
One could go a step further and suggest that the Mosaic Covenant is an example of a "deal with a deity", which pretty much the basis of all religion, petitioning the gods with sacrifice.
posted by SPrintF at 3:01 PM on November 3 [5 favorites]
One could go a step further and suggest that the Mosaic Covenant is an example of a "deal with a deity", which pretty much the basis of all religion, petitioning the gods with sacrifice.
posted by SPrintF at 3:01 PM on November 3 [5 favorites]
Theophilus of Adana made a deal with the devil to become a bishop, of all things. Gets to go to heaven, too! It's a story about a 6th century historical person, the legend itself seems almost that old.
FYI I learned about this on the Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff podcast, which had a 15 minute segment on the roots Faust legend. Starts at about 21 minutes. (The hosts are two game designers, if the occasional gestures towards role playing games seem odd. Most of the discussion is game free though).
posted by mark k at 3:08 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
FYI I learned about this on the Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff podcast, which had a 15 minute segment on the roots Faust legend. Starts at about 21 minutes. (The hosts are two game designers, if the occasional gestures towards role playing games seem odd. Most of the discussion is game free though).
posted by mark k at 3:08 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]
Best answer: You might like to pick up Ed Simon's Devil's Contract: The History of the Faustian Bargain.
posted by jocelmeow at 6:20 PM on November 3 [5 favorites]
posted by jocelmeow at 6:20 PM on November 3 [5 favorites]
One thing to note is that the concept of “selling your soul” necessarily requires one to have a concept of a soul as separate from the living body. A topic of debate is whether the Christian Bible has any such concept—historically, the answer has been that it does not. Tracing where the cultural concept of having a soul in this sense at all became prominent could be another place to research.
posted by brook horse at 7:02 AM on November 4 [2 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 7:02 AM on November 4 [2 favorites]
It's not a perfect fit, but the concept of selling some integral part of your identity in exchange for some material gain can arguably traced at least as far back as the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:33 AM on November 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:33 AM on November 4 [1 favorite]
When I was a child we had a book of Italian fairy tales and this was basically the entire theme: making deals with the devil and cleverly getting out of them. I have no idea how carefully researched it was or where it came from, but I have a lurking suspicion that you may find more medieval / Renaissance examples in folklore in Italy or other Mediterranean countries.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:56 PM on November 4
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:56 PM on November 4
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posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:14 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]