Examples of overreaching claims about Toronto’s place in the world?
October 26, 2024 7:00 PM   Subscribe

I live in Toronto. I’m writing a blog post about a phenomenon I think I notice, where for a variety of reasons, people make claims about Toronto along the lines of “the movie industry here is comparable to what you find in LA” or “the tech scene here is poised to become the next Silicon Valley any minute now”. But it’s hard for me to exactly put a finger on visible examples of the thing I am naming. Ideas?

Does this resonate for you? What I want is to explain to a reader what I’m talking about.

I’m looking for (ideally) concrete examples where people suggest that Tornto is, or is about to be, a place of global impact on a comparable scale to LA for Entertainment, SF for tech, or NYC for publishing/media. The thesis of my article is that it’s not comparable to those places, they they have immeasurably more impact, and that that’s okay… Anecdotal examples are cool, too, but the best thing would be links to actual examples…
posted by ManInSuit to Grab Bag (37 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
Anecdotal: I have lived in Los Angeles for 20+ years. I have many, many friends in the film industry -- actors, writers, editors, directors, stagecraft folks. I also have friends and contacts and colleagues in tech of all kinds. I work for a major studio and have for the past 10+ years.

I have never heard anyone talking about Toronto in any way. Not even in a "I'd like to go there for a vacation" or "I've been looking at housing costs in Toronto" way. No one here is thinking about tech or creative moving to Toronto.

I have friends in media and publishing in Chicago, NYC, Boston... no one I know has mentioned thinking about Toronto.

I hear Vancouver, I hear Atlanta, I hear locations in Eastern Europe. I have never heard Toronto.

Toronto's housing costs and general cost of living rivals major American cities, but offers no benefits that I can see, and has awful weather.
posted by erst at 8:01 PM on October 26 [7 favorites]


Toronto's tech industry has been pushing the title Silicon Valley North for years. I don't think I've ever seen the name used outside of marketing material. (that page is particularly egregious as it tries to refer to the Silicon Valley as "Silicon Valley South.")

If you look up "silicon valley north" on google you'll get a number of pages making claims that Toronto is the future of tech.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:02 PM on October 26 [2 favorites]


it's the old joke about being a world class city, but really being insecure that we're really nowhere.

Douglas Coupland said something like "Toronto is New York City run by the Swiss" in the 1990s, and that comment hasn't aged well. A bit like Doug "Elon Musk's No.1 Stan" C. himself.
posted by scruss at 8:30 PM on October 26 [1 favorite]


I'm in my 40s and from Alberta.
Toronto has always been "the center of the world", in the sense that

A) nobody from Ontario cares about anything else
(Classic western alienation politics)

B) people from Toronto are really conceited about Toronto and won't shut up about it

I always refer to it as "out east" because Torontonians claim it's central and it bothers them to hear otherwise.
Look at a map!
posted by Acari at 8:37 PM on October 26 [1 favorite]


As a lifetime BC-ite, all I thought was “hah, of course Toronto thinks that”. My general feeling is the rest of Canada jokes about how Toronto thinks its the center of the universe… and the rest of the world doesn’t think of Toronto at all. Wikipedia sort of backs me up on this with its page listing the list of places referred to as the center of the universe here: link.
posted by cgg at 9:33 PM on October 26 [7 favorites]


Tell Me No Lies’s link goes to a story about Ottawa which, for Americans, is not Toronto. :)

I think Torontonians position Toronto that way, if they do, like I did in your last post, to respond to the attitude that SF and LA are full of Better People/all true meritocracy winners end up in the US. At the time I thought you were complaining about a lack of quality of thought but I think I’m learning you mean dominance.

I don’t think most Toronto folks would argue over influence - first of all, that’s silly. There is nothing like American cultural dominance. (except maybe China?) But secondly, Toronto’s identity, at least in kind of traditional wasp ways, is based in part on trying to form in the shadows of those cities and not assume people who choose to stay here and not be a part of the American cultural machine are inherently less good at what they do.* (Or people who do go and then come back to make Schitt’s Creek.)

Take this CBC article on the Silicon Valley North thing. It’s a classic. There’s no argument to be made, unless someone is delusional, that Toronto is bigger than SF. The article’s point is that US companies swoop in to make use of our cheaper salaries (and for film, subsidies) to make their cultural product, because they are dominant. But also because we have the talent and education - the people. If a Torontonian is working for Google in Toronto, it’s kind of Google laying down its Silicon Valley foot print.

Anyways, I think that’s the challenge in your assignment. You are hearing people stand up for Canadian talent and Toronto’s (and if you were in Vancouver you’d hear it too) position as a North American city. But I don’t think you’ll find people saying it’s equal in influence.

* I would argue it’s actually harder to run a successful and growing business, especially in tech, in Canada than the US, so even if those companies stay smaller, or if they do start to have US prominence, they probably have better leadership.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:34 PM on October 26 [3 favorites]




I hope people stop coming to Toronto for a bit so my kids might be able to afford housing one day. There’s no stuff here at all! It’s horrible.

(I love Halifax too.)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:56 PM on October 26 [2 favorites]


If you can't find concrete examples, quotations, statements, etc. — and I don't have one to contribute either, sorry! — it occurs to me that you could take a look at numbers. E.g. choose an event that occurs in Toronto and an equivalent/comparable event that occurs in [other city], like a professional convention, game jam, or film festival, and compare the attendance #s (or # of panelists, or game submissions, film submissions, etc.) of each.

These numbers would be affected by overall population size, of course -- but hopefully they would also give a sense of the size, and therefore robustness, of that particular creative community.

(This came to mind because of an example that shows the opposite of the effect you're talking about re: Toronto. The Canadian city I grew up in, Edmonton, isn't standout in terms of reputation, population, economic power, tech scene, etc. but it has one of the biggest Fringe festivals in North America, beating out many big American cities, which speaks to the vitality of its theatre community in particular.)
posted by fire, water, earth, air at 12:38 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


Many second and even third tier cities like to inflate their own importance. This can be done for marketing and economic development reasons and it can also be true civic pride. It can also be a self deprecating joke.

Oliver Wendell Holmes may have been serious when he called Boston the Hub of the Solar System, but most people these are being cute when they call it the Hub of the Universe.

Interestingly, there are several other Hubs of the Universe located in North America. Maybe someone should organize a tour!
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:34 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


There’s no argument to be made, unless someone is delusional, that Toronto is bigger than SF ?

Toronto is the fourth-largest city in North America [Toronto]
posted by HearHere at 5:52 AM on October 27 [5 favorites]


Tell Me No Lies’s link goes to a story about Ottawa which, for Americans, is not Toronto. :)

Doh. Here’s the link I should have posted.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:00 AM on October 27


@erst I'm surprised by your experience given the significance of TIFF. Maybe it's a bigger deal for movie-goers than movie makers?
posted by SNACKeR at 6:01 AM on October 27 [2 favorites]


Toronto is the fourth-largest city in North America [Toronto]

Sorry - bigger in tech influence. I live here and know how big it is. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 6:20 AM on October 27


I just want to say, Albertans complain that Ontarians think TO is the centre of the world. But in fact Ontarians are sick to death of Toronto's self-importance. Way back when I worked at Queens U, students from out west were shocked to learn that most people go to Toronto once in a blue moon and would avoid it entirely if they could.
posted by Enid Lareg at 6:51 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


Ok, I'll make a claim that you can actually google and find a million people saying: Toronto is the most diverse\multicultural city in the world/North American etc. A few years ago people used to say that Unesco had declared it so and in fact I thin Unesco put out some sort of statement saying they were not in the business of handing out diversity trophies.

I suspect this one might actually be true, but it's really hard to find data to measure this for a lot of cities. I wonder if Dubai might give us a run for our money (as if taking our tallest freestanding structure wasn't bad enough!). But anyway this one might not be useful for your article because it's A) Plausibly true B) I don't think the data exist to definitively support or disprove the claim. But it's definitely something you'll hear said all over the place.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:49 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


Lifelong Torontoian here, and I can’t say I hear people making those kind of claims. If anything, I feel like we Torontonians downplay that sort of stuff. That “It’s like New York, but without all the stuff” bit from 30 Rock is just about perfect.

If you want to hunt for those kind of quotes, you might search for things former Mayor John Tory said at ribbon cuttings or finding announcements, especially related to the film industry.
posted by thenormshow at 8:12 AM on October 27 [5 favorites]


Toronto culture doesn’t offer any insight as to whether it rivals the cities that you mention in the terms that you’re using but it does have some interesting statistics that show that Toronto could but mentioned at the same time as those other cities.

You’re looking for something that’s hard to quantify and using comparison cities that have a long history in North America of being “important” or that have created a mythic reputation that makes it almost impossible to compare with.

I’ve been to Toronto a zillion times and the energy that it has is comparable to that of NYC and LA. Toronto is iconic in its own way but perhaps not as much in the industries that you’re looking at.
posted by ashbury at 8:17 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


Toronto has a lot of the upsides of other world class cities, though not to the same degree, and doesn't have a lot of the downsides of those other places. So it's hard to claim Toronto is the best at anything, except at failing to suck.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:20 AM on October 27


Honestly this questions reminds me of how I looked up shit people say about Texas when I hated living in TX. It's ok to not love Toronto but I think trying to somehow prove that it's objectively overrated is kind of more of a personal issue than a useful line of research.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:33 AM on October 27 [12 favorites]


There’s no argument to be made, unless someone is delusional, that Toronto is bigger than SF ?

San Francisco, (which is between 20 and 40 miles north of Silicon Valley depending on your definition , so not sure why it used interchangeably here) has a population much less than one third as much as Toronto.

Which itself proves there are no possible answers to this question. Common “X is the center of Y” assumptions aren’t even correct themselves.

See also the “I’m friends with soooo many entertainment biz people, and none of them have even mentioned Toronto” answer up top.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:11 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


Growing up I always heard the following:
-Toronto has the tallest building in the world! (CN Tower)
- Toronto has the longest street in the world! (Yonge street)
- Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world.

-Toronto has the best university in the country (U of T)
posted by winterportage at 10:26 AM on October 27


It was Peter Ustinov who had the quip about NYC run by the Swiss. I’ve lost a much earlier quote about how boring and closed up on Sundays Toronto was a century ago. Something about it making Edinburgh seem like a hashish dream.
posted by Paid In Full at 11:31 AM on October 27 [1 favorite]


a century ago?
In wish lol

Though the Supreme Court overturned the Lord's Day act in 1985, it allowed the provinces to mandate a common secular day off.
The province passed the Retail Business Holiday Act which mandated certain retail closures.
Sunday shopping was controversial and was only allowed by Bob Rae's NDP government in June 1992
Of course no one would be compelled to work Sundays ,nudge ,nudge wink wink lol.
--
Present day Toronto bears little resemblance to the sleepy city of the 1970s
Montreal was the largest Canadian city and it was a financial and corporate centre. Plus it was more fun , You could get a drink on Sundays.
Toronto's growth has been extremely rapid.
posted by yyz at 12:31 PM on October 27 [1 favorite]


I’ve been to Toronto a zillion times and the energy that it has is comparable to that of NYC and LA.

This is a laughable statement to me.

I've lived in Toronto for 50+ years and lived in Los Angeles for 3.5. Toronto is horribly run and always has been. The transit is shit. The city's design and traffic laws are hostile to anyone not in a car. The weather is garbage the majority of the year. The architecture is depressing. The traffic is literally the worst in the world. The cost of housing is ludicrous.

If I could legally work in any other country I would have moved years ago. I've temporarily lived in Spain, the Dominican, Melbourne, Vanuatu, and Los Angeles. Toronto is the least inspiring place I've experienced. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

For context, the majority of my friends and acquaintances work in the film industry or are artists / musicians. I don't know a single person who likes living here.
posted by dobbs at 1:04 PM on October 27 [2 favorites]


Sorry you’ve lived in both Toronto and LA and your first criticism is Toronto’s traffic and transit problems?
posted by artificialard at 2:46 PM on October 27 [8 favorites]


To be fair, Toronto's traffic problems are off-the-scale insane and can only get worse before it gets better. Like, trauma-inducing traffic problems. People are moving out of the city because it takes too long to get anywhere. People have PTSD from driving in Toronto. Toronto's traffic congestion is a real black mark against it and yes, it's probably in the top 5 worst places to drive in North America.

dobbs, I'm sorry that you're stuck in a place that you hate. :(
posted by ashbury at 6:09 PM on October 27 [2 favorites]


Sorry you’ve lived in both Toronto and LA and your first criticism is Toronto’s traffic and transit problems?

So... are you actually telling us that Toronto's traffic and transit are doing just great? You do realize that we should have started working on functional subway relief lines back in the 20th century?

Well, just getting anywhere from one place to another in Toronto is kinda stupid. It's a big city with some interesting people living in it, seriously crippled by dismal outdated infrastructure which could have been solved starting several decades ago, but instead continually stifled by self-serving greedy politicians elected by moronic short-sighted voters on both the municipal and provincial levels.

The current Conservative provincial Premier is now on an insane rampage to ruin as much of Toronto as possible, even worse than could have been imagined under the last Conservative regime in the 1990s.

(Also to answer the top question, as a large-ish city and the unofficial capital of Canada, Toronto has had a neurotic civic inferiority complex going way back.)
posted by ovvl at 8:57 PM on October 27 [1 favorite]


We've come full circle now that the thread is on Toronto has traffic problems that are comparable (or worse!) than LA.
posted by Summers at 1:46 AM on October 28 [2 favorites]


Like scruss said, it's "World Class City" syndrome. The only people I hear say it are those who are trying to sell the city in some way. Realtors, city councillors, tech start-up owners, etc.
posted by Stoof at 7:17 AM on October 28 [2 favorites]


Vancouver has the worst traffic in Canada, comparable to LA, though Toronto is not that far behind. Mexico City generally is considered to have the worst traffic in North America.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:25 AM on October 28


Spoke too soon. Scratch that. Per Tomtom (the navigation company) Toronto has passed both Vancouver and LA in terms of traffic congestion and average travel speed.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:32 AM on October 28 [2 favorites]


Sorry you’ve lived in both Toronto and LA and your first criticism is Toronto’s traffic and transit problems?

Yes. The traffic in Toronto is worse than LA. It's currently ranked worst in North America and 3rd worst in the world. The average speed of traffic in the city is just over 11MPH (18kph).

And yes, the public transit in Toronto is worse than in LA: it's more expensive, it's slower, it's unreliable, and it's constantly being re-routed.

If you want to get anecdotal, I used to work 5KM away in a straight line on a major road that had a streetcar line on it (lived and worked on Dundas Street West). I could walk home faster than I could take transit and that did not include time waiting for that streetcar. That's time-of-boarding to time-of-deboarding. It was so bad, I closed my shop, which was in a major tourist area, and moved it to 4 blocks from my house, costing me thousands of dollars in revenue per year, after years of suffering in Toronto traffic on Toronto transit.

Once, when travelling 11km that normally involved 2 transfers, I (and other passengers, of course) were kicked off due to mechanical issues or re-routing six times. The journey was supposed to be 40 minutes and took almost 3 hours. Imagine trying to plan your social life or getting to work on time or pick up the kids/dogs/etc on any kind of schedule when you literally have no idea how long it's going to take you to get anywhere.

From this article:

Transit riders aren’t spared from the traffic mayhem — in December, a team of Star reporters set out to measure the travel time from Bathurst Street to Jarvis Street along King Street at 5 p.m. on a Thursday. They travelled by bike, walking, transit and car. At a time of 79 minutes, the streetcar ride took the longest by far, followed by the car ride at 60 minutes, while walking and cycling took just 27 and 13 minutes respectively.
posted by dobbs at 10:28 AM on October 28 [2 favorites]


The average speed of traffic in the city is just over 11MPH (18kph).

Where is this from? I'm not doubting it, I'm just really curious about how you would figure this out. Like what's the numerator and what's tye denominator here?

Again, I'm not doubting/challenging. I'm sure people who study this stuff have established methods and as long as they use the same.methids across cities they're comparing it almost doesn't matter, but I'd just be really curious to see how they did it
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:58 AM on October 28


Since this discussion has strayed so far already, I will share these funny TikToks - what happened when a comedian asked ChatGPT to talk like a Toronto hood man.

The OG

50% more

Keisha from Brampton or Keisha from Maple?

This may be another reason to dislike Toronto, don't know. Remember: don't move here, everyone hates it. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 1:24 PM on October 28


I lived in Toronto for 5 years. 4 1/2 of them were in the center-of-the-universe rectangle between Yonge & Bathurst, St. Clair & King.

You could live a rich, full life without having to leave that rectangle, unless you were going out of town. This rectangle is about 2 miles north-south, and a mile east-west. You didn't need to own a car, of course, and I never did. The university is in the middle of that rectangle, and that was my focus, but I always had non-student neighbours.

And this is what Toronto has in common with a handful of other North American cities - NYC, Boston, SF, maybe Chicago but I don't know Chicago that well (and I think it was Mike Royko who described Chicago as just like Manhattan but you can find a parking spot, so prob not...).

And for whatever reason, Toronto is home to Canada's most integrated economy -- arts, finance, lots of manufacturing in the burbs, two major universities, restaurants featuring cuisine from practically every country. Diversity is a good thing when discussing economies, and Toronto might have one of the most diversified, large economies in North America. Maybe higher than most European cities. Up there with Los Angeles, but see the carless thing I wrote about above.

Before I start sounding like a chamber of commerce person, I was happy to leave with my degree because the weather is awful. Jane Jacobs described it as like the states, but with an extra February and no July, but then she mostly knew the humid summers and slushy winters of the Eastern Seaboard, and Toronto is just more of that.
posted by morspin at 4:16 PM on October 28


When I hear or read the sentiment you’re after, OP, I always think it’s from people who are just not so experienced in things and very excited to be in Canada’s best-known city. Like either they’re young or haven’t travelled much, or maybe they come from more challenged places.

I think there was a special moment for the city in the early 00s, and I liked it well enough in the 90s. Wasn’t comparable with NYC or anything, but it had some sort of character and offered modest opportunity, space and community for young/creative people.

The city and everyone in it have unfortunately been failed as everyone’s saying, and it’s just become a grind to live here, painful on every quality of life metric. Anyone who can go elsewhere does (from nurses and doctors, to tech people, to artists, whether it’s for cash or opportunity). I’m pretty sure there have been recent articles tracking emigration which might be interesting to you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:49 PM on October 28


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