What's the difference between these two sentences?

October 17, 2024 6:47 AM

From "Wuthering Heights". The narrator says, 'No wonder the grass grows up between the flags, '. If he says, 'No wonder the grass grows up among the flags.', what's the difference between them? Thank you for helping my English.
posted by mizukko to Writing & Language (30 answers total)

'Between', for me, denotes a separation. The grass and the flags are separate from each other. 'Among' signifies that they are together in a way, two parts of a whole.

For example, if I walk between the trees, I'm going through them, passing them, not touching them, separate.

If I walk among the trees, I may be meandering around them, touching them, mingling with them, enjoying them, together.
posted by greta simone at 6:53 AM on October 17, 2024 [6 favorites]

Best answer: He's probably talking about flagstones (big, flat, irregular paving stones). Grass grows up in the spaces between the stones.
posted by Grunyon at 6:54 AM on October 17, 2024 [20 favorites]

Part of the connotation has to do with the fact that the flags are stones that aren't intended to have grass between them; they're probably placed very close together. "Among" connotes a looser configuration and, as Greta Simone nods to, a sort of equal status.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:00 AM on October 17, 2024 [7 favorites]

Best answer: Since there are many more than two flag(stone)s, a pedantic prescriptivist would apparently argue that you have to write "among" rather than "between".

For myself, I think it has something to do with .. closeness? For any blade of grass, you could identify the two stones it's closely sandwiched between, so it feels natural to say the grass grows between the stones.

But I think it also reads perfectly fine with "among".
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:01 AM on October 17, 2024 [7 favorites]

Best answer: Hello mizukko!

flags in this sentence means a paving stone. Oxford English Dictionary, flags, n. 2.a.

A flat slab of any fine-grained rock which may be split into flagstones; a flagstone.

flagstone n 1.a.:

1730– A flag or flat stone suitable for paving, etc.; hence often in plural = pavement.

I agree with chesty_a_arthur that between implies an unwanted insertion or separation, that the grass should not be there. among is more neutral, the grass just happens to be hanging out with some stones, and sounds odd, making it more ambiguous whether we're talking about flagstones or fabric flags.

In context, the speaker is saying that the property does not have enough staff to properly maintain it.

'Here we have the whole establishment of domestics, I suppose,' was the reflection suggested by this compound order. 'No wonder the grass grows up between the flags, and cattle are the only hedge-cutters.'

posted by zamboni at 7:05 AM on October 17, 2024 [6 favorites]

Best answer: Since there are many more than two flag(stone)s, a pedantic prescriptivist would apparently argue that you have to write "among" rather than "between".

I'm one of those, and I came in here to make this very point.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:25 AM on October 17, 2024 [5 favorites]

"Among" appears to originate from Old English for "in the company of" or "mingled with," and I think it retains that nuance even if nobody (myself included) thinks about the history. For grass to "grow up among the flags" suggests both that grass and flags are the same category of thing and, subtly, that the flags are also growing up. For example, you might say "but weeds grew up among the wheat."
posted by Bardolph at 7:36 AM on October 17, 2024 [4 favorites]

Just wanted to add that although I'm not sure I can cite a source, I do not think the among/between rule cited by zamboni and faint of buttapplies to cases where the "between" is referring to a repeated spatial pattern. For example, you would definitely say "I have too much plaque between my teeth" or " the sand oozed between her toes" rather than "I have too much plaque among my teeth" or "the sand oozed among her toes."

Maybe there's an implied [in the space] preceding "between" in those constructions?
posted by Bardolph at 7:44 AM on October 17, 2024 [12 favorites]

The bit above about "between" being reserved for exactly two objects is not only pedantic prescriptivism, it's just fucking wrong, according to the actual authorities at the OED. "Between" has been used in constructions with more than two objects in Old English, Middle English, and ever since. The idea that "between" is wrong if there are more than two objects is just a relatively recent error propagated by overly zealous and under-informed prescriptivists.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:44 AM on October 17, 2024 [5 favorites]

The invaluable Merriam-Webster has a long discussion of among vs. between. They tend to be more descriptive and less proscriptive: "There is considerable evidence of between being used in reference to more than two things."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:47 AM on October 17, 2024 [3 favorites]

As someone has pointed out, the prescriptivist view is that "between" refers to something placed physically or temporally in the space left by two adjacent items whereas "among" refers to something placed within a group of three or more items.

If you imagine a flagstone path (or a sidewalk), grass generally grows in the gap left if two pavers don't meet completely (or where they pull apart over time). The grass will normally have pavers on two sides, so "between" is the most likely usage. However, if the narrator were contemplating an abandoned garden where there were multiple flagstone paths and grass growing everywhere, they might use "among" to emphasize that there are pavers in multiple directions from patches of grass.

This distinction is not merely antiquated/pedantic, but in casual usage, especially when referring to people, it gets blurred. People would think it was weird if you said "I'm waiting among 7th and 8th St.," but most people wouldn't blink at "between the five of us, we came up with thirty-six dollars." I think the more clearly physically/temporally defined the reference points, the more the among/between distinction still applies. As it gets more metaphorical, it collapses.
posted by praemunire at 7:47 AM on October 17, 2024 [3 favorites]

In my reading of this - these flags should be together and provide an essentially seamless path. Grass growing between them implies several things to me: that this hasn't been maintained, the passage of time, a general decline of "standards' (ie wealth), AND that nature finds a way to thrive between the stones. All because some grass has separated/broken up the authors expected uniformity of the stones.

It's about controlling nature. Grass growing among the flags would look more like my yard - an acceptance and accommodation, perhaps a more harmonious or holistic approach of integrating these stones and grass. Chaos.

Some of my neighbors judge me because I also have grass growing between my flags, and they desire a neighborhood that looks like golf course.
posted by zenon at 7:48 AM on October 17, 2024 [2 favorites]

When he saw my horse’s breast fairly pushing the barrier, he did put out his hand to unchain it, and then sullenly preceded me up the causeway, calling, as we entered the court,—“Joseph, take Mr. Lockwood’s horse; and bring up some wine.”

“Here we have the whole establishment of domestics, I suppose,” was the reflection suggested by this compound order. “No wonder the grass grows up between the [flagstones], and cattle are the only hedge-cutters.”

He is thinking about the poor condition of the property. In this context using either “between” or “among” evokes the same image of disrepair. They are interchangeable here.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:49 AM on October 17, 2024

I do not think the among/between rule cited by zamboni and faint of buttapplies to cases where the "between" is referring to a repeated spatial pattern.

I think you're probably confusing me with the antecedent of that pronoun.
posted by zamboni at 8:11 AM on October 17, 2024

There is a subtle distinction between the words, that's not the wrong part. The wrong part is the notion that the distinction is one of count or number.

The actual distinction is that 'among' connotes relationships that are more general, vague, or diffuse, while 'between' carries a meaning of relationships that are more direct, specific, or strict.

This is why it is wrong to say "I will meet you on Avenue G among 49th and 50th streets", or that "between the all the cars in traffic there are a few bicycles". It's not the number that matters, it's the nature of the relationship.

In the given example at top, either is correct, and the difference in meaning is so subtle as to be nearly inscrutable.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:33 AM on October 17, 2024 [4 favorites]

That's not right. "Among the top five scorers, the second and third hail from Lithuania." "Lights have been placed at five-foot intervals among the flowers."
posted by praemunire at 8:40 AM on October 17, 2024 [1 favorite]

It's not as complicated as some of the above answers would have you think.

The simple answer is that you can be between TWO things, but you cannot be between more than two things. So, going back to the original question (which incidentally uses "between" correctly), you cannot be between three (or more) trees. You can, however, be among them.
posted by Dolley at 8:43 AM on October 17, 2024 [1 favorite]

Your examples are fine and acceptable praemunire. They don't contradict the distinction I made, you're just using more words to add specificity.

I can also say "there were several interactions during the race between the top five finishers", indicating that the relationships are between individual people.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:05 AM on October 17, 2024 [1 favorite]

To me, between implies gaps, and among implies a closer mingling.

If I think "I walk between the trees", my mental image is of a path between stately rows of poplars or planes.

If I think "I walk among the trees", my mental image is of a forest where the trees grow close together and I must choose how to navigate.

But in that same forest, sunlight would shine down between the trees, and dapple the ground among them.

In the Wuthering Heights example, I would say both words are broadly correct, but between is more specific.
posted by Pallas Athena at 9:15 AM on October 17, 2024

The use of "between" suggests both a specific location for the grass, and that the flags (or paving stones) are set in a pattern of some kind. "Among" does not imply either of those things with as much strength.

Also, "between" is more commonly used for this specific feature in regular speech. Using "among" would suggest a more poetic style.
posted by plonkee at 9:31 AM on October 17, 2024 [1 favorite]

I think the two vs more than two distinction when using "between" is right, but I read the use of "between" when there are more than two items as having and implied "each of" in the sentence. In other words "No wonder the grass grows up between (each of) the flags". "Among" to me is exactly like Bardolph and others said above; one thing is interspersed among another. "There were wild strawberries among the clover."
posted by juggler at 11:32 AM on October 17, 2024

Amongst all this disagreement, this thread perfectly illustrates that there is little difference between these two words.

In all seriousness, when you are talking about this usage, something occupying the space among/between some other things, the two words are pretty much the same, but there are other ways to use each of these words...

(American English speaker in the American Midwest)
posted by advicepig at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2024

"Between" makes me picture two objects, close together, with the "between" item closely fitted into the small space remaining, uh, between the two objects.

Note that the literal meaning of "between" does not imply that the space is small, nor that the fit is close.

Here's an example using the map of the eastern United States:

If I said, "North Carolina is between Florida and New York", that's a perfectly correct sentence, even though there are hundreds of miles on each side of North Carolina before you get to either Florida or New York.

Still, my _default_ image is of things closely packed together. If you asked, "What states are North Carolina between?" I'd immediately think of the states immediately adjacent: South Carolina and Virginai.

"Among" makes me picture a scattering of several objects, with some space intermixed, and the new items randomly placed into that space.

So, if you asked me for an illustration of the word "among," I might say, "There are flowers mixed in among the leaves of that azalea bush." I probably wouldn't say, "There are cucumber slices among the lettuce in my salad," although that sentence is perfectly correct and I might well say it if you had asked a slightly different question.

These examples are not about what is correct or incorrect; they show only the way my mind works, and what associations those words, "between" and "among", have most strongly in my mind.



So, the writer you're asking about used "between" because he was emphasizing how close the flagstones are to each other, and thus how unusual it is for grass to grow there. If flagstones were generally placed several inches apart, it would be normal for grass to grow there. Since flagstones are usually thought to be close together, grass only grows if the area is neglected for a time.


So, that phrase emphasizes the length of time elapsed, and the general neglect of the area.

I hope this helps!

Now, the literal specified meanings of the words "between" and "among" are one thing, and that's covered well by commenters above. My differing mental images, though, are fairly strong for these two words.




Also, there is an old usage of "flag" meaning "flower" -- apparently an iris -- so, I suppose, one could have flags (flowers) growing between flags (stones), but it's definitely the stones that are meant in your text :)
posted by amtho at 12:26 PM on October 17, 2024 [3 favorites]

There's another possible option: Emily Brontë was Yorkshire born and bred. Yorkshire English uses prepositions slightly differently from most standard forms of English (such as using "while" to mean "until"). Plus, it's an old book: usages shift.

"among" and "between" are absolutely identical in meaning here. I'd use "amongst", myself
posted by scruss at 1:57 PM on October 17, 2024

A brief usage experiment:

"filling gaps between pavers"

"filling gaps among pavers"

posted by zamboni at 2:31 PM on October 17, 2024

In context, Mr. Lockwood is noting that the property is not closely tended (because there's only one servant). That is, he thinks the grass shouldn't be allowed to grow that way. "Between the flags" is a little more vivid— you can picture sprouts of glass appearing in the small gaps between stones. "Among the flags" would suggest more haphazard growth, or widely set stones; it wouldn't sound quite as disapproving. (Though note that it's only mild criticism— not keeping the yard neat goes along with Heathcliff's rough manners.)
posted by zompist at 4:14 PM on October 17, 2024 [2 favorites]

The bit above about "between" being reserved for exactly two objects is not only pedantic prescriptivism, it's just fucking wrong

as is almost always the case with pedantic prescriptivism.

The two words can often be used pretty much interchangeably. Which one you pick is about nuance: "between" puts the emphasis on separation, "among" on mixture or inclusion. So "the grass grows up between the flags" draws the reader's attention to the cracks or crevices separating the stones. That these crevices are big enough or old enough for grass to grow in suggests a floor or path in a state of disrepair.

"Between" is from the same root as "twain" and "two", as in "cleft in twain" meaning "cut in two", but there's been enough semantic drift there that it's mainly the cutting - the making of two from one - and not so much the two-ness itself whose meaning remains attached to the word.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 PM on October 17, 2024 [1 favorite]

I was taught that "between" is for two items. "Among" is for more than two.
posted by tmdonahue at 5:59 AM on October 18, 2024

Thorough learning includes reading between the lines.
posted by flabdablet at 6:25 AM on October 18, 2024 [1 favorite]

I'll confess that the very first image that "among the flags" brought to my mind was this (a patch of flag iris flowers with strands of grass growing up among and interspersed with the flowers).

I could see it as flagstones with grass growing up between and interspersed with them as well. But just nthing what several people said above: "Among" tends to have a connotation of somewhat equal things intermixed somewhat willy-nilly with each other while "between" is quite a lot more specific as to where the one thing lies in relation to the other(s).
posted by flug at 3:39 PM on October 18, 2024 [1 favorite]