roommate conflict: how to deal?
September 3, 2024 10:48 PM Subscribe
I brought up conflicts of the last few weeks with my roommate, who responded by saying that she’s been having ongoing conflicts with me for the last few years that she’s never told me. I thought we were friends the whole time, but she says that she’s been minimizing contact with me most of the time and that she now wants to be acquaintances only. What do I do!?
TL;DR It sounds like we essentially don’t share values or communication styles as roommates or friends, and it sounds like she is constantly so triggered by my presence that she likely needs her own space. Since I believe she’s in the wrong here, she and her partner should leave and help me find a roommate. Am I right to think so? How can I make this happen?
This is very long because there is a lot of nuance. Sorry!
I live with someone, let’s call them Z, and their partner X. Before all this, I would say I was decent friends with both Z and X. I knew Z for ~1 year before moving in, and we have mutual friends. I lived with Z for a few months, then X moved in. In total, we've lived together for ~2 years. I like X and have fewer conflicts with them. We are in our 30s and all come from a cultural background where conflict avoidance is more common than other cultures. We are all on the lease for a landlord (none of us is the landlord). The lease is month-to-month. We are in CA.
Recently I came into conflict with Z and sent her a document (with her consent) describing my conflicts.
Before our conversation, I was led to believe that we would talk about the conflicts in my doc and generally about “clearing the air” in the apartment (her words).
She instead proceeded to tell me:
- she’s been frustrated at our dynamic since we even moved in together (a little less than 2 years ago)
- she no longer wants to be friends and now just wants to be acquaintances
- she no longer wants to go to roommate dinners (1hr once every 2 weeks)
- she’s been feeling hurt by my actions since the beginning, when we moved in (e.g. she made food for me and it went bad in the fridge — on my end, I’m really bad at food and rarely cook — I apologized for that)
- she felt like many of her acts of care were rejected or that I was rejecting her. Meanwhile, for me it was nothing personal (e.g. I didn’t want to co-cook with her and her partner all in the kitchen because 3 people tripping over each other in the kitchen feels like hell, not because I was rejecting her personally). Meanwhile, she didn’t realize she was rejecting my invitations (e.g. I forwarded her lots of event invites) but I didn’t take it personally. We talked about all this.
- some amount of her trauma history re: why my different cleanliness standards were triggering her constantly
- she didn’t bring up any of this because she felt too angry to talk about it and didn’t trust her ability to regulate emotions in a conflict. Meanwhile, we already have roommate dinner set up once every 2 weeks for people to bring up conflicts, and she has brought up other stuff there that I’ve addressed….
- she was upset that I wasn’t clear enough about my health condition/status (meanwhile, she was part of a conversation with mutual friends about me dealing with disability, so she must have known, she just never asked to clarify). She has said things in our most recent convo that I interpret as hostility, such as “[If I help you out] it’s accommodations, NOT care, because I don’t care for you”
- now that we’ve talked about all of this, she feels relieved that there’s no more “pressure” to have a relationship (meanwhile, I feel extremely stressed and angry…)
- she doesn’t trust me (she got angry at me for ordering something via overnight air, meanwhile, it was just Amazon Prime, which she knew I had…)
- she no longer wants to invest in the relationship
- she feels like she’s had to compromise more in the living arrangement
- When I tried to figure out if things went south because we were roommates, she said "I would have never sought you out [for friendship], I just don't get along with [your type]" — this is pretty shocking to me because we had each hosted each other for dinners a few times previously, and we'd done other friend-like things — it reads to me like saying "we were never friends"
I felt like my original conflicts from the doc were barely addressed. Plus, if I had never sent her the doc, she likely would never have brought any of this up.
I was completely blindsided by this and told her that. I had no idea about any of this; things seemed basically fine until ~2 weeks ago when I wrote my doc.
I have 2 mutual friends with this person who are quite close with me and my roommate. They said they were trying to talk her out of such a blunt solution but she chose to go forward with it anyway. The mutual friends basically seem to be on my side here (they were also blindsided) but they also see that we have very different communication styles, which could be adding to the conflict.
I have a little of my own trauma history but I’ve also lived with many roommates (and even intentional communities) successfully over the years. This is the first serious roommate conflict I’ve had.
Now, I feel extremely angry at her because:
- She allowed me to believe I was her friend for almost 2 years, when at some point she decided that “even the minimum basic interaction [with me] was too much” (her exact words) and she’s been secretly trying to minimize interaction with me for a long time.
- I feel like she has actually caused me harm: I told her (in writing before the convo) that I identify as disabled, am trying to get accommodations at work, and am currently overwhelmed with doing that, so don’t have a ton of emotional capacity. The shock of having to field her 2 years of revelations sent me into a multi-day energy crash—and I don’t actually crash that often. I’m OK dealing with conflicts as they come up, but not like this! I have lost faith in the idea that she could even be a considerate acquaintance.
- She has taken no ownership over the situation. In conversation, she described our living situation as “toxic” but was not able to take accountability for why it was toxic: if she was annoyed at me since before even moving in with me, and was frequently angry to the point of inexpressibility, why did she move in with me and choose to extend the lease a year ago and tell her partner to move in and now plan to keep living here? If she had a history of not getting along well with roommates (she said “only ⅓ of my roommate situations have been OK”)... why is she living with a roommate? (Meanwhile: I’m a little more on the “I actually want a relationship with my roommates” side, but I’ve also had the “just a housemate” kind of roommate too.) Despite giving her own reasons why she hasn’t brought things up for years, she hasn’t given a basic apology.
- She has not stated any way that she will improve her communication or conflict resolution skills going forward, yet wants to keep living together. So then I feel like I have to “pick up the pieces” via guesswork and do the repairing.
- She has shut off positive avenues for repair: she’s said she no longer wants to attend roommate dinners to hang out (this is 1 hour, once every two weeks). She’s okay with talking about logistics or conflicts only, and wants to downgrade our relationship to “acquaintance” (i.e. basic small talk or acknowledging each other’s existence is OK). I told her it made zero sense to try and talk only about the “hard stuff” without any of the basic grease of a relationship, to which she said “good point,” but she didn’t follow up.
It’s hard for me to even be civil to her now, given all this. I used to feel like this was a home, and now I feel like it’s a hostile living environment.
FWIW, all this is a recurring pattern with Z, as she has cut many other people out of her life, and (by her own admission) does not have many relationships.
My questions:
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
I like the area and the apartment and don’t want to move. (I am also too overwhelmed with managing my full-time job and disability to move, unless they gave me a ton of $$ to cover a full-service mover, and even then, probably not.) I can afford to move/live alone, just don't want to.
I do not believe I would be causing her and her partner real harm by asking them to move out. She can easily afford a nice 1BR in our expensive area on her income alone, and used to live in one.
They were already planning to move out of the state in 1-3 years, which is a long time for them to stick around. I can see them saying “no, we don’t want to move out because we don’t want to move twice.”
After our convo (which X knew about), X is still very friendly to me, and I genuinely like her, and would be sad if she moved out, so I would consider a less harsh solution due to that. However, she seems a bit avoidant and has been putting off our own convo.
Both Z and X are avowed leftists, as am I, but it seems like we have very different understandings of what “being in community” is supposed to mean. I generally prefer to repair relationships, but it sounds like Z has firmly foreclosed that, and I think the convo has damaged the conversation beyond repair on my end as well.
TL;DR It sounds like we essentially don’t share values or communication styles as roommates or friends, and it sounds like she is constantly so triggered by my presence that she likely needs her own space. Since I believe she’s in the wrong here, she and her partner should leave and help me find a roommate. Am I right to think so? How can I make this happen?
This is very long because there is a lot of nuance. Sorry!
I live with someone, let’s call them Z, and their partner X. Before all this, I would say I was decent friends with both Z and X. I knew Z for ~1 year before moving in, and we have mutual friends. I lived with Z for a few months, then X moved in. In total, we've lived together for ~2 years. I like X and have fewer conflicts with them. We are in our 30s and all come from a cultural background where conflict avoidance is more common than other cultures. We are all on the lease for a landlord (none of us is the landlord). The lease is month-to-month. We are in CA.
Recently I came into conflict with Z and sent her a document (with her consent) describing my conflicts.
Before our conversation, I was led to believe that we would talk about the conflicts in my doc and generally about “clearing the air” in the apartment (her words).
She instead proceeded to tell me:
- she’s been frustrated at our dynamic since we even moved in together (a little less than 2 years ago)
- she no longer wants to be friends and now just wants to be acquaintances
- she no longer wants to go to roommate dinners (1hr once every 2 weeks)
- she’s been feeling hurt by my actions since the beginning, when we moved in (e.g. she made food for me and it went bad in the fridge — on my end, I’m really bad at food and rarely cook — I apologized for that)
- she felt like many of her acts of care were rejected or that I was rejecting her. Meanwhile, for me it was nothing personal (e.g. I didn’t want to co-cook with her and her partner all in the kitchen because 3 people tripping over each other in the kitchen feels like hell, not because I was rejecting her personally). Meanwhile, she didn’t realize she was rejecting my invitations (e.g. I forwarded her lots of event invites) but I didn’t take it personally. We talked about all this.
- some amount of her trauma history re: why my different cleanliness standards were triggering her constantly
- she didn’t bring up any of this because she felt too angry to talk about it and didn’t trust her ability to regulate emotions in a conflict. Meanwhile, we already have roommate dinner set up once every 2 weeks for people to bring up conflicts, and she has brought up other stuff there that I’ve addressed….
- she was upset that I wasn’t clear enough about my health condition/status (meanwhile, she was part of a conversation with mutual friends about me dealing with disability, so she must have known, she just never asked to clarify). She has said things in our most recent convo that I interpret as hostility, such as “[If I help you out] it’s accommodations, NOT care, because I don’t care for you”
- now that we’ve talked about all of this, she feels relieved that there’s no more “pressure” to have a relationship (meanwhile, I feel extremely stressed and angry…)
- she doesn’t trust me (she got angry at me for ordering something via overnight air, meanwhile, it was just Amazon Prime, which she knew I had…)
- she no longer wants to invest in the relationship
- she feels like she’s had to compromise more in the living arrangement
- When I tried to figure out if things went south because we were roommates, she said "I would have never sought you out [for friendship], I just don't get along with [your type]" — this is pretty shocking to me because we had each hosted each other for dinners a few times previously, and we'd done other friend-like things — it reads to me like saying "we were never friends"
I felt like my original conflicts from the doc were barely addressed. Plus, if I had never sent her the doc, she likely would never have brought any of this up.
I was completely blindsided by this and told her that. I had no idea about any of this; things seemed basically fine until ~2 weeks ago when I wrote my doc.
I have 2 mutual friends with this person who are quite close with me and my roommate. They said they were trying to talk her out of such a blunt solution but she chose to go forward with it anyway. The mutual friends basically seem to be on my side here (they were also blindsided) but they also see that we have very different communication styles, which could be adding to the conflict.
I have a little of my own trauma history but I’ve also lived with many roommates (and even intentional communities) successfully over the years. This is the first serious roommate conflict I’ve had.
Now, I feel extremely angry at her because:
- She allowed me to believe I was her friend for almost 2 years, when at some point she decided that “even the minimum basic interaction [with me] was too much” (her exact words) and she’s been secretly trying to minimize interaction with me for a long time.
- I feel like she has actually caused me harm: I told her (in writing before the convo) that I identify as disabled, am trying to get accommodations at work, and am currently overwhelmed with doing that, so don’t have a ton of emotional capacity. The shock of having to field her 2 years of revelations sent me into a multi-day energy crash—and I don’t actually crash that often. I’m OK dealing with conflicts as they come up, but not like this! I have lost faith in the idea that she could even be a considerate acquaintance.
- She has taken no ownership over the situation. In conversation, she described our living situation as “toxic” but was not able to take accountability for why it was toxic: if she was annoyed at me since before even moving in with me, and was frequently angry to the point of inexpressibility, why did she move in with me and choose to extend the lease a year ago and tell her partner to move in and now plan to keep living here? If she had a history of not getting along well with roommates (she said “only ⅓ of my roommate situations have been OK”)... why is she living with a roommate? (Meanwhile: I’m a little more on the “I actually want a relationship with my roommates” side, but I’ve also had the “just a housemate” kind of roommate too.) Despite giving her own reasons why she hasn’t brought things up for years, she hasn’t given a basic apology.
- She has not stated any way that she will improve her communication or conflict resolution skills going forward, yet wants to keep living together. So then I feel like I have to “pick up the pieces” via guesswork and do the repairing.
- She has shut off positive avenues for repair: she’s said she no longer wants to attend roommate dinners to hang out (this is 1 hour, once every two weeks). She’s okay with talking about logistics or conflicts only, and wants to downgrade our relationship to “acquaintance” (i.e. basic small talk or acknowledging each other’s existence is OK). I told her it made zero sense to try and talk only about the “hard stuff” without any of the basic grease of a relationship, to which she said “good point,” but she didn’t follow up.
It’s hard for me to even be civil to her now, given all this. I used to feel like this was a home, and now I feel like it’s a hostile living environment.
FWIW, all this is a recurring pattern with Z, as she has cut many other people out of her life, and (by her own admission) does not have many relationships.
My questions:
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
I like the area and the apartment and don’t want to move. (I am also too overwhelmed with managing my full-time job and disability to move, unless they gave me a ton of $$ to cover a full-service mover, and even then, probably not.) I can afford to move/live alone, just don't want to.
I do not believe I would be causing her and her partner real harm by asking them to move out. She can easily afford a nice 1BR in our expensive area on her income alone, and used to live in one.
They were already planning to move out of the state in 1-3 years, which is a long time for them to stick around. I can see them saying “no, we don’t want to move out because we don’t want to move twice.”
After our convo (which X knew about), X is still very friendly to me, and I genuinely like her, and would be sad if she moved out, so I would consider a less harsh solution due to that. However, she seems a bit avoidant and has been putting off our own convo.
Both Z and X are avowed leftists, as am I, but it seems like we have very different understandings of what “being in community” is supposed to mean. I generally prefer to repair relationships, but it sounds like Z has firmly foreclosed that, and I think the convo has damaged the conversation beyond repair on my end as well.
This post was deleted for the following reason: User request -- loup
Would a mutual friend be willing to sit down and mediate a discussion between you, and would your roommate be open to that (potentially including her partner as well)? I've found a third party who cares about both people can be helpful for working through conflicts like this and putting together a plan that works for everyone.
To answer your questions, the idea of not being allowed to feel an emotion doesn't make much sense to me -- emotions just happen; there's no "allowed". Even normal boundary-setting often makes others angry and that's fine. And you aren't asking too much, but be prepared for her not to do what you want her to. I would set aside the lists of grievances and focus on what both of you actually want -- is there a way forward that can satisfy both of you or which at least has a tolerable amount of compromise? You will probably have to have an actual conversation about this where you mutually figure out what it is you want and try to find solutions that work for both people.
posted by panic at 11:38 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
To answer your questions, the idea of not being allowed to feel an emotion doesn't make much sense to me -- emotions just happen; there's no "allowed". Even normal boundary-setting often makes others angry and that's fine. And you aren't asking too much, but be prepared for her not to do what you want her to. I would set aside the lists of grievances and focus on what both of you actually want -- is there a way forward that can satisfy both of you or which at least has a tolerable amount of compromise? You will probably have to have an actual conversation about this where you mutually figure out what it is you want and try to find solutions that work for both people.
posted by panic at 11:38 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
YES and NO. She has been really cruel to you.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now
.
Feel your feelings, and then try to let them go. In this kind of situation there is no one “harmer party” and one “harmed” party. I’m sure she feels legitimately like she is the “harmed” one just as you do. I’m sure part of the extremity of your reaction is from feeling yourself put in the “harmer” category which is excruciating, but especially in your kind of lefty culture where it escalates to “abuser/evil”. You’re not an abuser and neither is she. Feel the pain of the shock and the discomfort of her opinion of you, and don’t try to make this into a right/wrong battle. The relationship is completely destroyed, she chose to destroy it, now you just need to move on.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologise, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. You say this is already a pattern in her life. You can’t change her. This is just you trying to litigate the harmer/harmed right/wrong issue. Personally I think she is in the wrong to go nuclear on you after two years of saying nothing, but I’m sure people hearing her version would think of you as in the wrong. So just be dignified, let it go, move on, find a better living situation.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
Absolutely not. Ask your other friends to help you find a new houseshare, or for their help to move into a 1bed. The only script I would suggest is you tell X and Z that you would like to stay on in the apartment without them, and would they be willing to move out. They’ll probably say no. Then it’s on you to find somewhere new for yourself. Sorry.
posted by Balthamos at 11:44 PM on September 3 [10 favorites]
YES and NO. She has been really cruel to you.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now
.
Feel your feelings, and then try to let them go. In this kind of situation there is no one “harmer party” and one “harmed” party. I’m sure she feels legitimately like she is the “harmed” one just as you do. I’m sure part of the extremity of your reaction is from feeling yourself put in the “harmer” category which is excruciating, but especially in your kind of lefty culture where it escalates to “abuser/evil”. You’re not an abuser and neither is she. Feel the pain of the shock and the discomfort of her opinion of you, and don’t try to make this into a right/wrong battle. The relationship is completely destroyed, she chose to destroy it, now you just need to move on.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologise, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. You say this is already a pattern in her life. You can’t change her. This is just you trying to litigate the harmer/harmed right/wrong issue. Personally I think she is in the wrong to go nuclear on you after two years of saying nothing, but I’m sure people hearing her version would think of you as in the wrong. So just be dignified, let it go, move on, find a better living situation.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
Absolutely not. Ask your other friends to help you find a new houseshare, or for their help to move into a 1bed. The only script I would suggest is you tell X and Z that you would like to stay on in the apartment without them, and would they be willing to move out. They’ll probably say no. Then it’s on you to find somewhere new for yourself. Sorry.
posted by Balthamos at 11:44 PM on September 3 [10 favorites]
You are completely reasonable in being angry! Discovering that someone you are in relationship with has been harboring resentments like this for 2 years, resentments so big that once it comes out they now don't want to be friends at all? That would be intense and difficult even if you didn't live together. Having it happen in the home is very destabilizing.
I don't think you're asking too much, no! BUT it seems clear already that she won't be able to give those things to you. It then falls back on us to ask ourselves: what now? If I know I can't get what I need from a relationship, how do I cope? In this situation it feels clear to me that the answer is to move on.
--
It's very unclear from the post whether OP moved in to an established home or not; even if they had, this is an extreme response to this post:
I also tbh don't get this from the post at all: Stop trying to decide who's more marginalized or triggered or worthy of living in the apartment.
OP you are in a tough spot and I imagine doing some mental work to try to make this okay for yourself – fantasies of them moving out may be one of those tricks. I think the answer, such as it is, is to take some deep breaths, connect with people out of the house to remind yourself that you are more than your living situation; hold boundaries in the house that can keep you sane there while you plot your escape. You have a lot to grieve right now – the relationship, the trust, and maybe your housing. Try to give yourself the space to feel those (very legitimate) feelings without needing an immediate fix (ie roommate moving out asap). It's going to suck! But the medium term plan should be to get into housing you feel great in, whether that means the roommates move out or you do.
good luck, I'm sorry this is happening to you it really sucks
posted by wemayfreeze at 11:51 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
I don't think you're asking too much, no! BUT it seems clear already that she won't be able to give those things to you. It then falls back on us to ask ourselves: what now? If I know I can't get what I need from a relationship, how do I cope? In this situation it feels clear to me that the answer is to move on.
--
It's very unclear from the post whether OP moved in to an established home or not; even if they had, this is an extreme response to this post:
Your sense of entitlement to the home that someone else picked out themselves and then was later kind enough to let you move into is so shockingly outside the realm of normal morality and etiquette that it casts serious doubt on your perspective on everything else that's happened and who is most at fault.I know we're not supposed to do a lot of back and forth on AskMe but I have to say that right off the bat b/c to me this reads as wildly out of proportion to the facts of the question.
I also tbh don't get this from the post at all: Stop trying to decide who's more marginalized or triggered or worthy of living in the apartment.
OP you are in a tough spot and I imagine doing some mental work to try to make this okay for yourself – fantasies of them moving out may be one of those tricks. I think the answer, such as it is, is to take some deep breaths, connect with people out of the house to remind yourself that you are more than your living situation; hold boundaries in the house that can keep you sane there while you plot your escape. You have a lot to grieve right now – the relationship, the trust, and maybe your housing. Try to give yourself the space to feel those (very legitimate) feelings without needing an immediate fix (ie roommate moving out asap). It's going to suck! But the medium term plan should be to get into housing you feel great in, whether that means the roommates move out or you do.
good luck, I'm sorry this is happening to you it really sucks
posted by wemayfreeze at 11:51 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Z and I moved in together at the same time, to an empty 3BR! Originally, it was the two of us on the lease. Then her partner X moved in and we all agreed to add her to the lease. Now it's the three of us on the lease.
I'm curious what wording in the question indicates that Z was "there first." To make it clear, it was not an established home of Z and X's. If anything it was originally a home of Z and mine equally/jointly (exactly the same rent and amount of space), then X moved in
posted by switchback at 11:52 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
I'm curious what wording in the question indicates that Z was "there first." To make it clear, it was not an established home of Z and X's. If anything it was originally a home of Z and mine equally/jointly (exactly the same rent and amount of space), then X moved in
posted by switchback at 11:52 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Ok, so given the clarification on the timeline -- you and Z began the lease together at the same time, and X moved in later -- then both you and Z have an equal claim on the place.
It's okay for you to ask them to move out, but it's also okay for them to refuse.
The principle of "the person in the wrong should be the one who has to leave" is more for criminal acts, abuse, extreme uncleanliness etc., not "I thought we were friends but you don't like me."
If they don't want to go then there's two of them and one of you, so it'll be tough to win that fight, especially since the landlord would prefer the option with the most capacity to pay the rent alone.
"No Assholes Here" if this were Reddit.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:06 AM on September 4 [16 favorites]
It's okay for you to ask them to move out, but it's also okay for them to refuse.
The principle of "the person in the wrong should be the one who has to leave" is more for criminal acts, abuse, extreme uncleanliness etc., not "I thought we were friends but you don't like me."
If they don't want to go then there's two of them and one of you, so it'll be tough to win that fight, especially since the landlord would prefer the option with the most capacity to pay the rent alone.
"No Assholes Here" if this were Reddit.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:06 AM on September 4 [16 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry you're getting knee-jerk judgemental responses here based on people misreading your question and making assumptions.
You can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions.
You are allowed to be angry, but that doesn't mean anything about what you should do.
You can't control other people, what they do, think about you, or feel about you. Try to accept that this person definitely thinks they're the wronged party and won't change their mind about that no matter how carefully you explain your point of view.
Don't lose track of your priorities, which means having a safe and comfortable home. This person is not going to help you find that, believe them when they say they've already spent two years being unable to understand your point of view. This will not change, even if you are "in the right", because according to them, you are by definition, wrong.
Are you ruminating about this, and having imaginary arguments with this person, or trying to explain yourself? Are you talking about this to your other friends all the time?
Interrupt that process every time you notice it's happening. Figure out what parts of this you can actually control, (you can't control what this person thinks or feels or does, you can't control your feelings).
I'm sorry this happened, it must be painful and embarrassing. I hope you find a better home soon.
posted by Zumbador at 12:10 AM on September 4 [25 favorites]
You can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions.
You are allowed to be angry, but that doesn't mean anything about what you should do.
You can't control other people, what they do, think about you, or feel about you. Try to accept that this person definitely thinks they're the wronged party and won't change their mind about that no matter how carefully you explain your point of view.
Don't lose track of your priorities, which means having a safe and comfortable home. This person is not going to help you find that, believe them when they say they've already spent two years being unable to understand your point of view. This will not change, even if you are "in the right", because according to them, you are by definition, wrong.
Are you ruminating about this, and having imaginary arguments with this person, or trying to explain yourself? Are you talking about this to your other friends all the time?
Interrupt that process every time you notice it's happening. Figure out what parts of this you can actually control, (you can't control what this person thinks or feels or does, you can't control your feelings).
I'm sorry this happened, it must be painful and embarrassing. I hope you find a better home soon.
posted by Zumbador at 12:10 AM on September 4 [25 favorites]
Best answer: In situations like these there are so many ongoing grievances and nuances and unfair realities that there is no way to ethically keep score. You are allowed to feel whatever you feel, just like Z is allowed to feel whatever she feels. It is shitty that you’ve had the rug pulled out from under you in terms of your presumed friendship. I think it’s a waste of time and energy to dig any further into past conflicts and mistakes, because all that will do is calcify bad sentiments and use up patience neither of you have.
I think your key to peaceful resolution here is X. You mention that she is avoidant but remains friendly, that you’ve always had a smoother relationship with her anyway. She also is, presumably, close to Z and understands her in a different, probably better, way than you. She is, however, in the most tenuous situation wrt housing, since she moved in last and it sounds like her housing is contingent on an ongoing relationship with Z. You don’t mention X’s financial security but do mention that Z could comfortably afford rent by herself for a 1BR - would X be splitting that with her, in this scenario where they both moved out? That’s rhetorical, my point is just, X has a lot riding on her relationship with Z and you have a lot riding on your housing arrangement being peaceful and conflict-free. So X is avoiding you because she doesn’t want to lose her housing or risk angering her partner. If you can get a moment with X and assure her that you really want X to have stable housing and have no desire to cause conflict in her romantic relationship, you may be able to get X to help be a bridge of communication and peace between you and Z.
It sounds like you have had a successful history of living in a few different housing styles, and that Z has not. Because of that, and because Z has the financial solvency to pay for your chunk of the rent if they don’t find another roommate quickly, I think you should be the one to move out. Yes, it sucks, but I wouldn’t want to waste any more time fighting about who can stay and who can’t. You obviously are not compatible roommates with Z. The clearest path to detangling this issue is for you to live elsewhere. Reach out to your casual friends and community resources. Since Z is so conflict avoidant you probably have time to figure something out, and if she knows you are moving she might be able to let a lot of things drop.
Living with someone who secretly detests you is a horrible thing. I bet you’ll be a lot more comfortable somewhere else, even if it is a lot of hard work getting there.
posted by Mizu at 12:46 AM on September 4 [6 favorites]
I think your key to peaceful resolution here is X. You mention that she is avoidant but remains friendly, that you’ve always had a smoother relationship with her anyway. She also is, presumably, close to Z and understands her in a different, probably better, way than you. She is, however, in the most tenuous situation wrt housing, since she moved in last and it sounds like her housing is contingent on an ongoing relationship with Z. You don’t mention X’s financial security but do mention that Z could comfortably afford rent by herself for a 1BR - would X be splitting that with her, in this scenario where they both moved out? That’s rhetorical, my point is just, X has a lot riding on her relationship with Z and you have a lot riding on your housing arrangement being peaceful and conflict-free. So X is avoiding you because she doesn’t want to lose her housing or risk angering her partner. If you can get a moment with X and assure her that you really want X to have stable housing and have no desire to cause conflict in her romantic relationship, you may be able to get X to help be a bridge of communication and peace between you and Z.
It sounds like you have had a successful history of living in a few different housing styles, and that Z has not. Because of that, and because Z has the financial solvency to pay for your chunk of the rent if they don’t find another roommate quickly, I think you should be the one to move out. Yes, it sucks, but I wouldn’t want to waste any more time fighting about who can stay and who can’t. You obviously are not compatible roommates with Z. The clearest path to detangling this issue is for you to live elsewhere. Reach out to your casual friends and community resources. Since Z is so conflict avoidant you probably have time to figure something out, and if she knows you are moving she might be able to let a lot of things drop.
Living with someone who secretly detests you is a horrible thing. I bet you’ll be a lot more comfortable somewhere else, even if it is a lot of hard work getting there.
posted by Mizu at 12:46 AM on September 4 [6 favorites]
Are you allowed to be angry? Well, you don't need anyone's permission, but it does seem a bit odd. My read on the situation is that when you proposed sending a list of grievances, she thought 'alright, let's get things out into the open' and prepared her own list. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", after all. So you shared yours, she shared hers and now you're more hurt than she is… Yeah, that can happen. (Is it possible you're feeling angry to distract yourself from feeling hurt? That's pretty common.)
I don't think it's fair to ask them to move out, though you could ask them about how they see things going from here.
It's clear (now) that this is not the roommate situation you were hoping for, but unless you had some kind of agreement that being roommates was contingent on being friends (and how would that work?), I think you all have equal rights to stay.
posted by demi-octopus at 12:49 AM on September 4 [13 favorites]
I don't think it's fair to ask them to move out, though you could ask them about how they see things going from here.
It's clear (now) that this is not the roommate situation you were hoping for, but unless you had some kind of agreement that being roommates was contingent on being friends (and how would that work?), I think you all have equal rights to stay.
posted by demi-octopus at 12:49 AM on September 4 [13 favorites]
I'm curious what wording in the question indicates that Z was "there first."
My brain parsed the grammar of "I knew Z for ~1 year before moving in" as you moved into a home that Z already lived in, and I genuinely didn't realize that you could have possibly meant anything else.
I would have described what actually happened as "Z and I moved in together."
However, I suspect that my misunderstanding has more to do with my autism than with your communication skills. Again, I apologize, because while the two difference sentence constructions mean two vastly different things to me, I can see now how someone else might use them interchangeably. One of my flaws is that I tend to parse everything with the precision of a technical manual and forget to turn that off in the setting of casual conversations about human relations, and that's my problem not yours.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:52 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
My brain parsed the grammar of "I knew Z for ~1 year before moving in" as you moved into a home that Z already lived in, and I genuinely didn't realize that you could have possibly meant anything else.
I would have described what actually happened as "Z and I moved in together."
However, I suspect that my misunderstanding has more to do with my autism than with your communication skills. Again, I apologize, because while the two difference sentence constructions mean two vastly different things to me, I can see now how someone else might use them interchangeably. One of my flaws is that I tend to parse everything with the precision of a technical manual and forget to turn that off in the setting of casual conversations about human relations, and that's my problem not yours.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:52 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
1. Am I allowed to be angry?
Yes, of course.
Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
That's a separate question. I'm not sure if I have the right English word for her behaviour, but it's giving "century/salted egg in-progress" It was on her to bring this up if it's come to the point of even the sight of you annoys her, BUT I do think she's the personality that thought she was being above/over it, and was being 'the bigger person,' until the 2-page document arrived. That's when she went nuclear and suddenly every small petty thing became a big deal. Maybe having another friend to talk to her might help but basing on your explanation, there's no point, her century egg is done, and she's feeling pretty good/justified about it, fair or not.
in any case, no, it's not mature behaviour, but it's a very normal behaviour for certain type of person who's been habituated to feeling hard done by. This is the stuff family rifts are made of.
Your lack of notice to her overtures certainly didn't help, though speaking as a disinterested party, I hope at some point you move past the justifications stage. Sometimes crossed wires do happen. What happens next is more important than relitigating it all.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
You deserve to feel whatever you need to feel. But it would probably help to not see her face. Cold war is in effect. I mean, a person who can do all these friendship acts and then come out much later that it never meant anything? That's just mean, even if I'm accounting for the possibility that she was trying to communicate her displeasure but you didn't see it. So what - she's mean for doing this.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. It's done. You can still live there though - just establish physical boundaries and not talk to each other, if you have the personality for it.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
... don't do this. Move if you want, stay if you want, but don't ask them for anything, you already can see this is a person that keeps a tally. Don't involve other people as well - collateral damage risk is real.
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
Yes, of course.
Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
That's a separate question. I'm not sure if I have the right English word for her behaviour, but it's giving "century/salted egg in-progress" It was on her to bring this up if it's come to the point of even the sight of you annoys her, BUT I do think she's the personality that thought she was being above/over it, and was being 'the bigger person,' until the 2-page document arrived. That's when she went nuclear and suddenly every small petty thing became a big deal. Maybe having another friend to talk to her might help but basing on your explanation, there's no point, her century egg is done, and she's feeling pretty good/justified about it, fair or not.
in any case, no, it's not mature behaviour, but it's a very normal behaviour for certain type of person who's been habituated to feeling hard done by. This is the stuff family rifts are made of.
Your lack of notice to her overtures certainly didn't help, though speaking as a disinterested party, I hope at some point you move past the justifications stage. Sometimes crossed wires do happen. What happens next is more important than relitigating it all.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
You deserve to feel whatever you need to feel. But it would probably help to not see her face. Cold war is in effect. I mean, a person who can do all these friendship acts and then come out much later that it never meant anything? That's just mean, even if I'm accounting for the possibility that she was trying to communicate her displeasure but you didn't see it. So what - she's mean for doing this.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. It's done. You can still live there though - just establish physical boundaries and not talk to each other, if you have the personality for it.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
... don't do this. Move if you want, stay if you want, but don't ask them for anything, you already can see this is a person that keeps a tally. Don't involve other people as well - collateral damage risk is real.
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
You want Z and X to move out AND help you find a new roommate? The only script I know of that would make that happen is, "Here's $10,000 to move out and find me a new roommate that I will approve of."
I read your entire post. In my opinion the majority of it is noise. Who is right and wrong is irrelevant to who gets to stay. The only issue is how to go forward. I am still trying to understand what being an avowed leftist means to this situation. Btw, this person sounds like a very difficult person with whom to live or with whom to be your friend.
You're both on the lease. You both have the right to live there. If you do not want to live with them, move out. If you like the apartment more than you despise them, stay. You have no ability, legal or moral to get them to move out.
If it were me, I would probably move, but I would also consider staying for a month being quiet (not interacting with them), just going about my business while avoiding conflict. See how that goes. As long as the two of them do not initiate conflict, this could be ok. Take your time and find the exact situation you want. Look at other apartments. Meet other potential roommates. In the interim, maybe they move out. Maybe you find a new "perfect" situation.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:34 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
I read your entire post. In my opinion the majority of it is noise. Who is right and wrong is irrelevant to who gets to stay. The only issue is how to go forward. I am still trying to understand what being an avowed leftist means to this situation. Btw, this person sounds like a very difficult person with whom to live or with whom to be your friend.
You're both on the lease. You both have the right to live there. If you do not want to live with them, move out. If you like the apartment more than you despise them, stay. You have no ability, legal or moral to get them to move out.
If it were me, I would probably move, but I would also consider staying for a month being quiet (not interacting with them), just going about my business while avoiding conflict. See how that goes. As long as the two of them do not initiate conflict, this could be ok. Take your time and find the exact situation you want. Look at other apartments. Meet other potential roommates. In the interim, maybe they move out. Maybe you find a new "perfect" situation.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:34 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
1. Am I allowed to be angry?
Sure, you're allowed to feel any feeling regardless of circumstances.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now
I also have a disabling health issue and also crash hard when I'm deeply upset. So you're allowed to feel angry and resentful and shocked and so forth, but ultimately all of that harms you more than anything, so it would be better not to. Easier said than done, I know (believe me!) But if there are any ways for you to take a path towards feeling more like "that's a thing that happened, I'm okay, this is not ultimately very important, and how weird was that, wasn't it? Oh well", then I'd try to take that path. (And if you're feeling all this in your body, like you're super tense and can't relax, I'd also work specifically on getting your body to a point where it feels relaxed.)
On moving out: no roommate really has a right to kick the other out. And you're presumably outnumbered here - if the two of them want to stay and you want them to leave, they can say "too bad, this situation still works for us" and you saying "not fair, it's you who made my living situation unpleasant and also it's harder for me to move then it is for you" might carry some weight... But probably not. Which is understandable, from their perspective. What you want wouldn't really be "fair" to them either. In the end, fairness isn't a useful lens here; the question is who is willing to stay in the current situation and who isn't.
I think you can give it a try to suggest (not demand! not act like you're entitled to it!) that they think about moving out, maybe framing it as a kindness they'd be doing, but don't expect much to come of it. I would definitely drop any thought that they owe this to you - it's not going to be helpful, to you least of all.
Is work on figuring out if you're able to stay there as things are. If not (and it sounds like a no), then work on moving. See if these mutual friends (and other unrelated friends?) can help you with the search, the packing, the unpacking, etc.
If sucks, but it'll pass and these memories will fade. Faster if you let them.
Sending you a lot of sympathy - people who aren't sick aren't able to really understand what it's like and how their actions can affect things, even if they think they do, but I know the feeling of "this is making me extra sick and I really don't deserve that". It's not something you can fairly blame them for, but I know where you're coming from and I feel you. Wishing you the fastest improvement possible.
posted by trig at 1:40 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Sure, you're allowed to feel any feeling regardless of circumstances.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now
I also have a disabling health issue and also crash hard when I'm deeply upset. So you're allowed to feel angry and resentful and shocked and so forth, but ultimately all of that harms you more than anything, so it would be better not to. Easier said than done, I know (believe me!) But if there are any ways for you to take a path towards feeling more like "that's a thing that happened, I'm okay, this is not ultimately very important, and how weird was that, wasn't it? Oh well", then I'd try to take that path. (And if you're feeling all this in your body, like you're super tense and can't relax, I'd also work specifically on getting your body to a point where it feels relaxed.)
On moving out: no roommate really has a right to kick the other out. And you're presumably outnumbered here - if the two of them want to stay and you want them to leave, they can say "too bad, this situation still works for us" and you saying "not fair, it's you who made my living situation unpleasant and also it's harder for me to move then it is for you" might carry some weight... But probably not. Which is understandable, from their perspective. What you want wouldn't really be "fair" to them either. In the end, fairness isn't a useful lens here; the question is who is willing to stay in the current situation and who isn't.
I think you can give it a try to suggest (not demand! not act like you're entitled to it!) that they think about moving out, maybe framing it as a kindness they'd be doing, but don't expect much to come of it. I would definitely drop any thought that they owe this to you - it's not going to be helpful, to you least of all.
Is work on figuring out if you're able to stay there as things are. If not (and it sounds like a no), then work on moving. See if these mutual friends (and other unrelated friends?) can help you with the search, the packing, the unpacking, etc.
If sucks, but it'll pass and these memories will fade. Faster if you let them.
Sending you a lot of sympathy - people who aren't sick aren't able to really understand what it's like and how their actions can affect things, even if they think they do, but I know the feeling of "this is making me extra sick and I really don't deserve that". It's not something you can fairly blame them for, but I know where you're coming from and I feel you. Wishing you the fastest improvement possible.
posted by trig at 1:40 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
You do not need permission to be angry. Her behaviour has been unhelpful. I would be very hurt in your position.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Feel them, and let them pass. What has worked for you in the past to help you let go of emotions? For me, with anger it's helpful to do something physical and then try to focus on practical steps. I am not above holding a long-term grudge, which might not be good exactly but if someone's burned a bridge I think it can be left burned.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. It is very clear to me from what you have written that Z is not going to do this. It does not matter whether you, or I, or anyone else, thinks that Z should, if they will not.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
This is unlikely to be effective. Given everything you have written about Z, they are just not going to believe that they have done anything that justifies being the one to leave. That is, they are not going to think there is a moral case for them to leave. Also, there are two of them and one of you, so they are not going to think there is a practical case for them to leave.
You could try stating that you don't think living together is sustainable long term, and asking whether they are planning to stay in the apartment or move out. But I expect Z will tell you that they are planning to stay.
I'm sorry, I think that leaves you looking for a new place to live.
posted by plonkee at 1:53 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
You do not need permission to be angry. Her behaviour has been unhelpful. I would be very hurt in your position.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Feel them, and let them pass. What has worked for you in the past to help you let go of emotions? For me, with anger it's helpful to do something physical and then try to focus on practical steps. I am not above holding a long-term grudge, which might not be good exactly but if someone's burned a bridge I think it can be left burned.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. It is very clear to me from what you have written that Z is not going to do this. It does not matter whether you, or I, or anyone else, thinks that Z should, if they will not.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
This is unlikely to be effective. Given everything you have written about Z, they are just not going to believe that they have done anything that justifies being the one to leave. That is, they are not going to think there is a moral case for them to leave. Also, there are two of them and one of you, so they are not going to think there is a practical case for them to leave.
You could try stating that you don't think living together is sustainable long term, and asking whether they are planning to stay in the apartment or move out. But I expect Z will tell you that they are planning to stay.
I'm sorry, I think that leaves you looking for a new place to live.
posted by plonkee at 1:53 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
"How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now."
For most of my life, I had a very difficult time calming myself down after I felt I'd been wronged.
I used to find intense physical exercise like running or punching/kicking a heavy bag helpful for burning off excess anger, but you mention that you're disabled so that might not be an option for you (my arthritis means it ceased to be an option for me a while ago).
Then I came across this post on /r/anger about how unmanageable anger is sometimes a symptom of a magnesium deficiency. Since magnesium supplements were cheap and had no side effects at normal doses, I decided to give them a try. I felt a significant reduction in my anger within a week. So now I take magnesium at bedtime and I no longer lie awake all night seething with rage. I am confident that it is not just the placebo effect because I had previously tried a bunch of different medications over the years that were prescribed to help me manage my anger. If I was going to have a placebo effect response to taking a pill for anger, it should have kicked in long ago for one of those other pills, but none of them worked.
Before I discovered magnesium, I sometimes used a double dose of cannabis gummies to calm me down enough to be able to sleep. But that's not a good long-term solution and should be used sparingly for acute situations only. Like it might be reasonable to use it to get through the initial shock and to help keep your sleep regular and avoid falling into the "too angry to sleep" --> "sleep deprivation making me even angrier" --> "too angry to sleep" negative feedback loop, but you don't want to get in the habit of having to use drugs every day to cope for the duration of however long the two of you will stuck living together.
If it were me in this situation, I would:
1) Immediately order magnesium supplements (these are the ones I take, but you should buy a smaller/cheaper bottle and make sure they work for you before shelling out for a year's worth).
2) While I wait for the magnesium to arrive and take effect, I would treat any anger-related insomnia with cannabis to help me relax at night. I'd ask my local budtender for specific recommendations for products that people like to use for sleep and relaxation (budtenders legally can't give medical advice, but they can say "*I* like using X for Y" and let you do what you want with that information), since different strains and ratios have different effects. I would only use it as needed for insomnia until I'd been on magnesium for a week, at which point I would stop and see if how magnesium alone works.
3) I would avoid any consumption of alcohol for at least a few weeks, even if it seems like a drink would be soothing. Anger + alcohol = bad idea.
4) I would distract myself from the situation and avoid unnecessary interactions with my roommates by spending most of my time in my room playing an immersive and positive videogame like Stardew Valley.
5) I would not make any decisions or demands/requests of my roommates until I no longer felt physically sick from anger.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:59 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
For most of my life, I had a very difficult time calming myself down after I felt I'd been wronged.
I used to find intense physical exercise like running or punching/kicking a heavy bag helpful for burning off excess anger, but you mention that you're disabled so that might not be an option for you (my arthritis means it ceased to be an option for me a while ago).
Then I came across this post on /r/anger about how unmanageable anger is sometimes a symptom of a magnesium deficiency. Since magnesium supplements were cheap and had no side effects at normal doses, I decided to give them a try. I felt a significant reduction in my anger within a week. So now I take magnesium at bedtime and I no longer lie awake all night seething with rage. I am confident that it is not just the placebo effect because I had previously tried a bunch of different medications over the years that were prescribed to help me manage my anger. If I was going to have a placebo effect response to taking a pill for anger, it should have kicked in long ago for one of those other pills, but none of them worked.
Before I discovered magnesium, I sometimes used a double dose of cannabis gummies to calm me down enough to be able to sleep. But that's not a good long-term solution and should be used sparingly for acute situations only. Like it might be reasonable to use it to get through the initial shock and to help keep your sleep regular and avoid falling into the "too angry to sleep" --> "sleep deprivation making me even angrier" --> "too angry to sleep" negative feedback loop, but you don't want to get in the habit of having to use drugs every day to cope for the duration of however long the two of you will stuck living together.
If it were me in this situation, I would:
1) Immediately order magnesium supplements (these are the ones I take, but you should buy a smaller/cheaper bottle and make sure they work for you before shelling out for a year's worth).
2) While I wait for the magnesium to arrive and take effect, I would treat any anger-related insomnia with cannabis to help me relax at night. I'd ask my local budtender for specific recommendations for products that people like to use for sleep and relaxation (budtenders legally can't give medical advice, but they can say "*I* like using X for Y" and let you do what you want with that information), since different strains and ratios have different effects. I would only use it as needed for insomnia until I'd been on magnesium for a week, at which point I would stop and see if how magnesium alone works.
3) I would avoid any consumption of alcohol for at least a few weeks, even if it seems like a drink would be soothing. Anger + alcohol = bad idea.
4) I would distract myself from the situation and avoid unnecessary interactions with my roommates by spending most of my time in my room playing an immersive and positive videogame like Stardew Valley.
5) I would not make any decisions or demands/requests of my roommates until I no longer felt physically sick from anger.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:59 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
> sent her a document (with her consent) describing my conflicts.
I got to this part & immediately thought: ok this isn’t going to end happily
Conflict-avoidance is a perfectly good strategy, but everyone has to agree that all of the unspoken terrible things remain unspoken forever. Otherwise you have naturally avoidant people trying to deal with sudden unpleasant revelations - which will probably go just as OP describes it.
If you can’t put it all back under the carpet & pretend that the whole grievance-document thing never happened, then unfortunately it’s time to move out.
posted by rd45 at 2:14 AM on September 4 [20 favorites]
I got to this part & immediately thought: ok this isn’t going to end happily
Conflict-avoidance is a perfectly good strategy, but everyone has to agree that all of the unspoken terrible things remain unspoken forever. Otherwise you have naturally avoidant people trying to deal with sudden unpleasant revelations - which will probably go just as OP describes it.
If you can’t put it all back under the carpet & pretend that the whole grievance-document thing never happened, then unfortunately it’s time to move out.
posted by rd45 at 2:14 AM on September 4 [20 favorites]
I notice you left the details of your two-page document out. And that you had a roommate dinner where you feel conflicts should have been discussed. I’m having trouble reconciling those two things. It sounds like the dinners weren’t working for you -two pages is a lot. So I think if I were you I’d work to reframe this situation as “we weren’t compatible to live together” rather than “roommate unilaterally blew up.”
1. Emotions don’t work that way. While reframing, as per above, can help both in terms of determining a course of action and in being compassionate over the long term, in the short term sure, you will be angry just like she probably was to get the document.
2. Whatever you normally do. For I would work out and/or watch some comedies.
3. This is completely unrealistic. If you wanted to try the apology route you could apologize for the letter but I don’t think it sounds salvageable now so wouldn’t bother.
4. I think in this situation you would have to move. You could try to make the situation work while you look for a new place, and you might find it works even better as “just roommates.” And if not, then you’ll have at least found a new place.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:04 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
1. Emotions don’t work that way. While reframing, as per above, can help both in terms of determining a course of action and in being compassionate over the long term, in the short term sure, you will be angry just like she probably was to get the document.
2. Whatever you normally do. For I would work out and/or watch some comedies.
3. This is completely unrealistic. If you wanted to try the apology route you could apologize for the letter but I don’t think it sounds salvageable now so wouldn’t bother.
4. I think in this situation you would have to move. You could try to make the situation work while you look for a new place, and you might find it works even better as “just roommates.” And if not, then you’ll have at least found a new place.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:04 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
Bruh. She had a strong negative reaction because from her perspective she's been quietly annoyed by you but remaining civil for two years, and you sent her a written document full of grievances.
The details don't matter (they really don't). I have been in more bad roommate situations than I can recount, and one thing I know with absolute certainty is that this roommate relationship has reached its end. Nothing else matters, how anyone feels about it doesn't matter, it is an unsalvageable situation. From now on all your energies need to be focused on finding new housing. Not to please the roommate, but to find a good situation for yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 3:15 AM on September 4 [60 favorites]
The details don't matter (they really don't). I have been in more bad roommate situations than I can recount, and one thing I know with absolute certainty is that this roommate relationship has reached its end. Nothing else matters, how anyone feels about it doesn't matter, it is an unsalvageable situation. From now on all your energies need to be focused on finding new housing. Not to please the roommate, but to find a good situation for yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 3:15 AM on September 4 [60 favorites]
I think I’d put the focus on what you can actually control here. You can’t easily make the other couple leave, but you can leave yourself. Is that easier or harder than making peace with a roommate you’d thought was your friend who actually feels contempt for you? Sit with these answers for a week or more before deciding what to do. I’d feel humiliated and angry in your situation and that’s not the best time for making decisions. I’m sorry this happened.
posted by eirias at 3:55 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
posted by eirias at 3:55 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
As others have mentioned there quite a bit of noise in your post. You mention you are angry and that is a valid emotion to feel but it is definitely “running the show” because a lot of what you are angling for / writing about is extremely improbable (they are not going to move out, and they will never, ever pay you a large sum of money for full service movers)
Many people have already answered questions 1-4 so I won’t do that. I’ll focus on pragmátics:
I am also too overwhelmed with managing my full-time job and disability to move, unless they gave me a ton of $$ to cover a full-service mover, and even then, probably not.) I can afford to move/live alone, just don't want to.
If I’m reading this right that you CAN afford to move, then you pragmatically have three options -
1. Passive: Remain in place, seething in perpetuity while they figure out the 1-3 year move out timeline (which may not come to pass because they have agency). and/or hope their minds get changed in one way or another about the current dynamics (without evidence they will)
2. Active: Remain in place, and somehow find a way, completely on your own end, to be untriggered by the many things you list in your post (this seems unlikely to me. it feels like you perceive too much bad blood for this to happen. but I could be wrong. It’s also a ton of inner work, IMO possibly more so than the work a move requires.)
3. Active; Use the money you have to pay for the move you can afford.
If you go with 3, you can chunk it out in a way where it’s manageable. You have variables to play with - money, time, executive function, friends/family are just a few. If some are plentiful and some are not; you prioritize the ones that are (ex. If you have money and no deadline pressure; you get a new place first, and then slowly chunk out pieces of the move with non-full-service movers, TaskRabbits and/or friends/family).
No move has ever been fun and they are particularly unfun when there’s disability and strife involved, I’m not minimizing that and can relate. But if you need to move to avoid options 1 or 2, you use the resources at your disposal - money, and a month to month lease that de pressurizes the timeline!
TLDR - start mapping out the pragmatic next steps at some point soon and actively decide to move. The suffering of actively embracing the moving process will be less than the suffering of passively waiting for something to change if you stay.
posted by seemoorglass at 4:10 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
Many people have already answered questions 1-4 so I won’t do that. I’ll focus on pragmátics:
I am also too overwhelmed with managing my full-time job and disability to move, unless they gave me a ton of $$ to cover a full-service mover, and even then, probably not.) I can afford to move/live alone, just don't want to.
If I’m reading this right that you CAN afford to move, then you pragmatically have three options -
1. Passive: Remain in place, seething in perpetuity while they figure out the 1-3 year move out timeline (which may not come to pass because they have agency). and/or hope their minds get changed in one way or another about the current dynamics (without evidence they will)
2. Active: Remain in place, and somehow find a way, completely on your own end, to be untriggered by the many things you list in your post (this seems unlikely to me. it feels like you perceive too much bad blood for this to happen. but I could be wrong. It’s also a ton of inner work, IMO possibly more so than the work a move requires.)
3. Active; Use the money you have to pay for the move you can afford.
If you go with 3, you can chunk it out in a way where it’s manageable. You have variables to play with - money, time, executive function, friends/family are just a few. If some are plentiful and some are not; you prioritize the ones that are (ex. If you have money and no deadline pressure; you get a new place first, and then slowly chunk out pieces of the move with non-full-service movers, TaskRabbits and/or friends/family).
No move has ever been fun and they are particularly unfun when there’s disability and strife involved, I’m not minimizing that and can relate. But if you need to move to avoid options 1 or 2, you use the resources at your disposal - money, and a month to month lease that de pressurizes the timeline!
TLDR - start mapping out the pragmatic next steps at some point soon and actively decide to move. The suffering of actively embracing the moving process will be less than the suffering of passively waiting for something to change if you stay.
posted by seemoorglass at 4:10 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
Yes, you are allowed to be angry. Even if her behavior did represent normal boundary-setting, you would be allowed to be angry - you can feel however you feel. As for "normal," I don't really feel I can judge that, but it certainly feels like she escalated this wildly and unpleasantly.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Do you have someone you can vent to about this who's not a mutual friend? A therapist, a just-your-friend friend, a family member, a journal? I'd say start there - complain about this all you need to until you burn off some of the anger. If there's something else that usually helps you burn off anger - a physical activity, if you're able? making art? spending some time in a peaceful nature setting? - go ahead and do that. If you're missing out on any basic self-care due to all of this roiling emotion, get that done - eat, sleep, take a shower.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. This is not going to happen and you cannot ask for her to agree with you that she was wrong as a condition of living together, unless you live in a very specific kind of intentional community with ground rules like that. If she's complying with the terms of your lease, she can keep living with you, even if it is awful for both of you.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
No, I don't think you can reasonably do that, unless, again, the terms of your lease are very specific about you having the right to make your roommates leave. If this living situation is intolerable for you - and it's very reasonable that it would be! - then I think you are going to need to hang in there until you can get enough space from your work situation to get some of your energy back, and then be the one who moves out. Meanwhile, I would suggest dropping the whole idea of roommate dinner. It's time for keeping it civil-logistics-chat-only. I'd probably also drop the idea of a separate conversation with X; she's avoiding it, I'm not sure what good it could do at this point, and she's in a terrible spot.
I'm sorry. This sounds like a really draining living situation to be in. I hope it gets to a tolerable place soon.
posted by Stacey at 5:03 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Yes, you are allowed to be angry. Even if her behavior did represent normal boundary-setting, you would be allowed to be angry - you can feel however you feel. As for "normal," I don't really feel I can judge that, but it certainly feels like she escalated this wildly and unpleasantly.
2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Do you have someone you can vent to about this who's not a mutual friend? A therapist, a just-your-friend friend, a family member, a journal? I'd say start there - complain about this all you need to until you burn off some of the anger. If there's something else that usually helps you burn off anger - a physical activity, if you're able? making art? spending some time in a peaceful nature setting? - go ahead and do that. If you're missing out on any basic self-care due to all of this roiling emotion, get that done - eat, sleep, take a shower.
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
Yes. This is not going to happen and you cannot ask for her to agree with you that she was wrong as a condition of living together, unless you live in a very specific kind of intentional community with ground rules like that. If she's complying with the terms of your lease, she can keep living with you, even if it is awful for both of you.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
No, I don't think you can reasonably do that, unless, again, the terms of your lease are very specific about you having the right to make your roommates leave. If this living situation is intolerable for you - and it's very reasonable that it would be! - then I think you are going to need to hang in there until you can get enough space from your work situation to get some of your energy back, and then be the one who moves out. Meanwhile, I would suggest dropping the whole idea of roommate dinner. It's time for keeping it civil-logistics-chat-only. I'd probably also drop the idea of a separate conversation with X; she's avoiding it, I'm not sure what good it could do at this point, and she's in a terrible spot.
I'm sorry. This sounds like a really draining living situation to be in. I hope it gets to a tolerable place soon.
posted by Stacey at 5:03 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Question about the document: whose idea was it for you to write down all your complaints in a document? Also was the document a surprise to them or did they know you were working on it?
I would be really offended to receive a document of complaints about me. I would wonder why we couldn’t have discussed these face to face at our roommate dinner. I would probably feel some of the things you are feeling: that my roommate pent all these things up and didn’t just talk to me.
I’m bringing this up to share some perspective on why your roommate might have responded so aggressively.
posted by CMcG at 5:27 AM on September 4 [22 favorites]
I would be really offended to receive a document of complaints about me. I would wonder why we couldn’t have discussed these face to face at our roommate dinner. I would probably feel some of the things you are feeling: that my roommate pent all these things up and didn’t just talk to me.
I’m bringing this up to share some perspective on why your roommate might have responded so aggressively.
posted by CMcG at 5:27 AM on September 4 [22 favorites]
Best answer: Being angry/upset/blindsided are all valid reactions and it may take a bit of time to work through them. But this relationship is broken. So I’d start working on alternative living situation.
Once you are calm enough find your lease and read it. What does it say about breaking the lease? When is your lease up for renewal? What, if anything, does it say about replacing roommates? Ok, now you have information.
Can you tolerate each other until the lease is due for renewal? It would probably be easiest not to renew. You can just let them know the current setup is not working any more and you won’t renew with them. Ask them if they want to stay or move. If they want to move, great. If they want to stay you figure out your plan to move.
If you’re facing energy constraints that may include packing your non essential stuff up one box at a time over a few weeks etc.
If you have energy constraints there is also a lot to be said for living alone. That way, you can save your bandwidth for dealing with actual friends and work. I appreciate you prefer to share and have done so successfully in the past but it does add extra dynamics outside your control. Other people invariably affect our energy, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:51 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
Once you are calm enough find your lease and read it. What does it say about breaking the lease? When is your lease up for renewal? What, if anything, does it say about replacing roommates? Ok, now you have information.
Can you tolerate each other until the lease is due for renewal? It would probably be easiest not to renew. You can just let them know the current setup is not working any more and you won’t renew with them. Ask them if they want to stay or move. If they want to move, great. If they want to stay you figure out your plan to move.
If you’re facing energy constraints that may include packing your non essential stuff up one box at a time over a few weeks etc.
If you have energy constraints there is also a lot to be said for living alone. That way, you can save your bandwidth for dealing with actual friends and work. I appreciate you prefer to share and have done so successfully in the past but it does add extra dynamics outside your control. Other people invariably affect our energy, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:51 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
To not abuse edit - I recommend you start with your contractual obligations. It is reasonable to expect people to meet these, unreasonable to expect them to go beyond. BUT if they want to break the lease, that gives you leverage.
If they want to move asap, you may be able to negotiate for help finding a new roommate. If they would prefer you to move asap, they will need to help you with moving, either by packing and moving your stuff or by paying for someone to help.
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:01 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
If they want to move asap, you may be able to negotiate for help finding a new roommate. If they would prefer you to move asap, they will need to help you with moving, either by packing and moving your stuff or by paying for someone to help.
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:01 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
Oh god, this sounds awful.
But everyone is right—your feelings don’t get priority and asking them to leave is not something to which you are entitled. You can do it, but it is not your right.
Since Z has a history of acting this way, you can take comfort in realizing it was just a matter of time before she treated you like she has other people in her life.
I would also mention that this saga is presented with a strong sense of you did nothing wrong; Z is the person who has communicated badly, needs to apologize, and is to blame for your misery. But your sending a two-page document to clear the air was a mistake, whatever your intentions. She was appallingly honest in conveying her disdain and dislike for you. That is a lousy way to treat a roommate, but it doesn't mean she loses her rights as a tenant.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 6:43 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
But everyone is right—your feelings don’t get priority and asking them to leave is not something to which you are entitled. You can do it, but it is not your right.
Since Z has a history of acting this way, you can take comfort in realizing it was just a matter of time before she treated you like she has other people in her life.
I would also mention that this saga is presented with a strong sense of you did nothing wrong; Z is the person who has communicated badly, needs to apologize, and is to blame for your misery. But your sending a two-page document to clear the air was a mistake, whatever your intentions. She was appallingly honest in conveying her disdain and dislike for you. That is a lousy way to treat a roommate, but it doesn't mean she loses her rights as a tenant.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 6:43 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Why would you WANT this person to help pick your new roommate? Do you think this person, who has been nursing a two-year grievance over you not eating food she made, is somehow better qualified than you are for this task? Forget “fair.” You two clearly have wildly different definitions of that term anyway so forget what seems fair and just get practical for once. What actions will lead to the best OUTCOMES here? Not in the fantasy world where this woman doesn’t (from my perspective) actively and irrationally despise you, but in the real world, where this is not all getting smoothed out in Roommate Committee?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:48 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:48 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
One "small thing" from your list jumped out at me because I was in a similar situation. The item I mean is: "...why my different cleanliness standards were triggering her constantly"
Is she the "more clean" person or are you? I was the "more clean" person in a roommate situation, and it devolved to a loss of a long term friendship partly because of this. For other reasons as well, but a huge part of it was the level of acceptable cleanliness.
Anecdote:
My roommate would allow dishes to sit and stack up with dried, crusted food in the sink all the time. He didn't regularly wash his clothing or bedding and our entire place became dirty-laundry funk. I could smell it when I walked in the door. I did the mega-lion's share of the cleaning, and I had to tell him to clean up his shit all the time. He was a slob, plain and simple. I had known him for years before we moved in together, but didn't realize his general lack of hygiene. He did shower regularly, so I didn't know him as "dirty"... but I didn't know his personal home situation.
This can become extremely grating, tiresome and miserable to the person whose standards are towards the "more clean" side of the spectrum. He just didn't give a shit about cleaning anything, so I constantly felt like I was having to tell him to tidy up and wash his sheets, etc. I started to take on a parental role, and I hated it — deeply resented it and hated it.
I became deeply resentful, nearly dreading walking in when I got home to see what shit he didn't clean or what new mess he made or how bad the place was going to smell.
We talked about it a few times. But nothing changed. He would clean if I told him to, but then a week later we'd be back to square one. Being tidy and keeping things clean was simply not on his radar, at all. Period.
.......
The preceding anecdote was my experience only. I do not know if your situation was anything like that, but you mention it in passing.
If my old roommate had writing a similar Ask Metailfter question, he probably would have mentioned that particular issue in passing. If I had written it, the main point of my expression would be that our cleanliness standards did not match. At all.
In other words, it was an "in-passing," and minor issue to him, but a huge, huge issue to me. People have different perspectives.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:54 AM on September 4 [16 favorites]
Is she the "more clean" person or are you? I was the "more clean" person in a roommate situation, and it devolved to a loss of a long term friendship partly because of this. For other reasons as well, but a huge part of it was the level of acceptable cleanliness.
Anecdote:
My roommate would allow dishes to sit and stack up with dried, crusted food in the sink all the time. He didn't regularly wash his clothing or bedding and our entire place became dirty-laundry funk. I could smell it when I walked in the door. I did the mega-lion's share of the cleaning, and I had to tell him to clean up his shit all the time. He was a slob, plain and simple. I had known him for years before we moved in together, but didn't realize his general lack of hygiene. He did shower regularly, so I didn't know him as "dirty"... but I didn't know his personal home situation.
This can become extremely grating, tiresome and miserable to the person whose standards are towards the "more clean" side of the spectrum. He just didn't give a shit about cleaning anything, so I constantly felt like I was having to tell him to tidy up and wash his sheets, etc. I started to take on a parental role, and I hated it — deeply resented it and hated it.
I became deeply resentful, nearly dreading walking in when I got home to see what shit he didn't clean or what new mess he made or how bad the place was going to smell.
We talked about it a few times. But nothing changed. He would clean if I told him to, but then a week later we'd be back to square one. Being tidy and keeping things clean was simply not on his radar, at all. Period.
.......
The preceding anecdote was my experience only. I do not know if your situation was anything like that, but you mention it in passing.
If my old roommate had writing a similar Ask Metailfter question, he probably would have mentioned that particular issue in passing. If I had written it, the main point of my expression would be that our cleanliness standards did not match. At all.
In other words, it was an "in-passing," and minor issue to him, but a huge, huge issue to me. People have different perspectives.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:54 AM on September 4 [16 favorites]
It sounds like you each had a two-page document of grievances in you; hers just came out verbally.
posted by samthemander at 6:58 AM on September 4 [15 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 6:58 AM on September 4 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Wow. Your roommate sounds like a real piece of work. Though I'm also wondering about your doc and what was in it but maybe it doesn't matter at this point (I'm nosy).
My read of the situation is that you wanted to talk about some recent conflicts and she responded with "oh yeah? Well I have conflicts with you too!" To try to one up you. So now she feels better because she's gotten everything off her chest, and now wants to be acquaintances AND she wants to still keep living together??? She really pulled the rug out from under you. She has treated you badly so yes of course it's ok to feel very angry about this - she was very deceptive/two faced (even if it was unintentional and she was trying to protect herself from conflict/anger/getting dysregulated) so I wouldn't blame you if you felt a little betrayed also.
Ultimately it doesn't sound like you're compatible as roommates and that she probably shouldn't have roommates if she's such a bad communicator and takes things so personally.
This sounds like a very untenable living situation for you. It's ok to be hurt by "someone I thought was my friend has been seething this entire time and now wants to be acquaintances." Maybe someone with thicker skin/no emotions would be able to just brush that off and have a very perfunctory roommate relationship going forward but I would not feel ok talking to them about anything.
>1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
I don't think this is normal boundary setting. What boundaries of hers are being set? The only thing I can see is that she doesn't want to have roommate dinners.
The biggest thing is she doesn't trust you (and doesn't want to invest in the relationship). That is hurtful but if you haven't done anything to betray her trust (how does ordering Amazon Prime make you untrustworthy?) I wouldn't take that as a statement on your trustworthiness as a person. If she doesn't trust you then what's the point of having any kind of relationship with her, especially one where you're living together.
>2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Do all the self care things. Talk to a friend who doesn't know her. Journal it out. Remind yourself you're a good person. Maybe do some somatic exercises. Breathe. Feel the feels.
>3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
You can ask these things, but you won't get far. Her response will likely be "Lol no." You say "to keep living here" as it you have some power over the conditions to live there, which you don't. You could probably say this if she was a romantic partner under the guise of "to stay together and improve this relationship" and assuming she's invested in the relationship but clearly this is not that.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
Here's my attempt at a script, no idea if it'll work: "this recent conflict has been really hard on me and I'm barely functional now due to my disability. [Or however you want to phrase that.] It's clear this living situation isn't working out for us. Would you consider moving out?" If she says no, it's a no. Then you have to be the one to move unfortunately. I don't think you can ask them to help you find a new roommate - that's too much to ask. She wants to keep living with you and you don't, so you're the one who will likely have to move.
Although I wonder, could you talk to X about them moving? If she's more friendly with you, would she be more understanding? Maybe the script would be "hey this recent conflict with Z has been really hard on me and I'm barely functional now due to my disability. I don't think this living situation is working out for Z and I. I know your loyalty lies with her vs me, but would you consider talking to her about moving out?" She might be sympathetic to your position and be able to "work" Z to move out but she'd have to want to move as well. If you take this route, you're asking her to do you a big favour and she may not want to do that for whatever reason. Who knows, it could work, but it's a gamble. Either way I think you have to be prepared to move out.
posted by foxjacket at 7:16 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
My read of the situation is that you wanted to talk about some recent conflicts and she responded with "oh yeah? Well I have conflicts with you too!" To try to one up you. So now she feels better because she's gotten everything off her chest, and now wants to be acquaintances AND she wants to still keep living together??? She really pulled the rug out from under you. She has treated you badly so yes of course it's ok to feel very angry about this - she was very deceptive/two faced (even if it was unintentional and she was trying to protect herself from conflict/anger/getting dysregulated) so I wouldn't blame you if you felt a little betrayed also.
Ultimately it doesn't sound like you're compatible as roommates and that she probably shouldn't have roommates if she's such a bad communicator and takes things so personally.
This sounds like a very untenable living situation for you. It's ok to be hurt by "someone I thought was my friend has been seething this entire time and now wants to be acquaintances." Maybe someone with thicker skin/no emotions would be able to just brush that off and have a very perfunctory roommate relationship going forward but I would not feel ok talking to them about anything.
>1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
I don't think this is normal boundary setting. What boundaries of hers are being set? The only thing I can see is that she doesn't want to have roommate dinners.
The biggest thing is she doesn't trust you (and doesn't want to invest in the relationship). That is hurtful but if you haven't done anything to betray her trust (how does ordering Amazon Prime make you untrustworthy?) I wouldn't take that as a statement on your trustworthiness as a person. If she doesn't trust you then what's the point of having any kind of relationship with her, especially one where you're living together.
>2. How do I manage my emotions? I feel so angry at being wronged that I’m not very functional right now.
Do all the self care things. Talk to a friend who doesn't know her. Journal it out. Remind yourself you're a good person. Maybe do some somatic exercises. Breathe. Feel the feels.
>3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
You can ask these things, but you won't get far. Her response will likely be "Lol no." You say "to keep living here" as it you have some power over the conditions to live there, which you don't. You could probably say this if she was a romantic partner under the guise of "to stay together and improve this relationship" and assuming she's invested in the relationship but clearly this is not that.
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that? (A script would help!)
Here's my attempt at a script, no idea if it'll work: "this recent conflict has been really hard on me and I'm barely functional now due to my disability. [Or however you want to phrase that.] It's clear this living situation isn't working out for us. Would you consider moving out?" If she says no, it's a no. Then you have to be the one to move unfortunately. I don't think you can ask them to help you find a new roommate - that's too much to ask. She wants to keep living with you and you don't, so you're the one who will likely have to move.
Although I wonder, could you talk to X about them moving? If she's more friendly with you, would she be more understanding? Maybe the script would be "hey this recent conflict with Z has been really hard on me and I'm barely functional now due to my disability. I don't think this living situation is working out for Z and I. I know your loyalty lies with her vs me, but would you consider talking to her about moving out?" She might be sympathetic to your position and be able to "work" Z to move out but she'd have to want to move as well. If you take this route, you're asking her to do you a big favour and she may not want to do that for whatever reason. Who knows, it could work, but it's a gamble. Either way I think you have to be prepared to move out.
posted by foxjacket at 7:16 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Best answer: This is why a lot of people have a policy of not living with friends, but instead find roommates they can have pleasantly businesslike relationships with. Because living with people is hard, and it's even harder if there's a mismatch in expectations with enough friendship that feelings get hurt but there's not the framework of partnership there for resolving the expectation problems.
And among the many problems that have built up in your situation, one of them does appear to be that your roommate had some expectations from you on an emotional level that didn't get met and she's angry at you instead of herself about that.
Probably, also, you are angry about stuff that is a waste of energy. It honestly sounds like both of you have dramatically escalated normal roommate shit - a serious chunk of which you are supposed to just accept, but it sounds like neither of you are willing to do so at this point so every single bit of it is somehow now an official grievance.
You get to feel however you feel, but consider that some of this emotional intensity is self-escalated. You contributed to the out-of-controllness of this situation, and I promise that accepting and owning that, internally, is a much calmer state even if it burns a little.
Anyway, the relationship is shot on every level now, when somehow a serious issue is a shipping method you used on a package. You can't fix that. That is...real broken.
And if you don't want more trouble than you've already got you should step back from being "wronged" in some kind of imaginary way that earns you recompense, accept you're in a bad situation you need to exit, and figure out how to plan and execute that exit using ONLY the things YOU can control.
You should ask them, in short sentences contained in less than one paragraph devoid of adjectives or any other inflammatory language, which of you will be moving and in what timeframe. If you want to be the bigger person here - and you DO, not for moral reasons but because it puts you in a higher position in the power dynamic - you will simply no longer entertain the grievance conversation in any way and proceed with the business of detaching from this living arrangement because it is no longer sustainable. And stick to that line of explanation only: "this arrangement is no longer sustainable." If that is met with a firehose of emotional vomit, you just nod and say, "Right, like I said: no longer sustainable." Focus on the contractual rights and obligations, not the emotions.
One of the things you (the generic you) accept when moving in with someone is the liability of the end of the arrangement, for whatever reason from boringly normal to traumatically tragic. You have to assume that whoever you live with could move out while you're at work one day, or only give you 30-60 days' notice, or die. It will be your responsibility to deal with your needs when something like that happens.
No, you should not expect your extremely angry (or dead, or broke) roommate to give you money and find you a new roommate. You don't want your angry or dead roommate to pick your next roommate.
Seriously, let me sing the praises of the Politely Uninvolved Roommate(s). Pick your next one based on as identical as possible alignment on cleanliness, quiet hours, level of in-home socialization, security, and personal boundaries. Be no more entangled than agreeing to water each others' plants if one of you is out of town, and maybe if you're really crazy you can both put $8/month into a Shared Condiment Fund with a written agreement of what condiments are covered by the fund and expectations around keeping crumbs out of the jam. And learn to let shit go, learn to recognize there's a cost to demanding your shared space conform to your every desire as if you lived alone. If he gets crumbs in the jam, just start buying your own. "Conflict" is a violation of living agreements - cleanliness, noise, guests, security, privacy/confidentiality, and treatment of personal property/property for which you have liability as a tenant - it is not a failure to perform friendship in a specific way.
I have a friend I've known for years who lives with someone I only know as Roommate. I think they're on their 3rd or 4th place together. They have a relationship not unlike two coworkers who like each other fine but don't, like, go to lunch together unless it's another coworker's birthday. I think one of our friends does have Roommate's contact information (and vice versa) in case something happens to Friend, and Friend's parents also have their contact information, but we don't know her and have never had any expectation of meeting her, she's just...Roommate. And Friend has never had anything but good things to say about Roommate in terms of being a roommate (not that she comes up much, but occasionally it's something like "and Roommate texted me to tell me there was a car on fire in the street"). If I ever have to live with someone not my husband again, my goal 100% is to find me a Roommate.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:20 AM on September 4 [14 favorites]
And among the many problems that have built up in your situation, one of them does appear to be that your roommate had some expectations from you on an emotional level that didn't get met and she's angry at you instead of herself about that.
Probably, also, you are angry about stuff that is a waste of energy. It honestly sounds like both of you have dramatically escalated normal roommate shit - a serious chunk of which you are supposed to just accept, but it sounds like neither of you are willing to do so at this point so every single bit of it is somehow now an official grievance.
You get to feel however you feel, but consider that some of this emotional intensity is self-escalated. You contributed to the out-of-controllness of this situation, and I promise that accepting and owning that, internally, is a much calmer state even if it burns a little.
Anyway, the relationship is shot on every level now, when somehow a serious issue is a shipping method you used on a package. You can't fix that. That is...real broken.
And if you don't want more trouble than you've already got you should step back from being "wronged" in some kind of imaginary way that earns you recompense, accept you're in a bad situation you need to exit, and figure out how to plan and execute that exit using ONLY the things YOU can control.
You should ask them, in short sentences contained in less than one paragraph devoid of adjectives or any other inflammatory language, which of you will be moving and in what timeframe. If you want to be the bigger person here - and you DO, not for moral reasons but because it puts you in a higher position in the power dynamic - you will simply no longer entertain the grievance conversation in any way and proceed with the business of detaching from this living arrangement because it is no longer sustainable. And stick to that line of explanation only: "this arrangement is no longer sustainable." If that is met with a firehose of emotional vomit, you just nod and say, "Right, like I said: no longer sustainable." Focus on the contractual rights and obligations, not the emotions.
One of the things you (the generic you) accept when moving in with someone is the liability of the end of the arrangement, for whatever reason from boringly normal to traumatically tragic. You have to assume that whoever you live with could move out while you're at work one day, or only give you 30-60 days' notice, or die. It will be your responsibility to deal with your needs when something like that happens.
No, you should not expect your extremely angry (or dead, or broke) roommate to give you money and find you a new roommate. You don't want your angry or dead roommate to pick your next roommate.
Seriously, let me sing the praises of the Politely Uninvolved Roommate(s). Pick your next one based on as identical as possible alignment on cleanliness, quiet hours, level of in-home socialization, security, and personal boundaries. Be no more entangled than agreeing to water each others' plants if one of you is out of town, and maybe if you're really crazy you can both put $8/month into a Shared Condiment Fund with a written agreement of what condiments are covered by the fund and expectations around keeping crumbs out of the jam. And learn to let shit go, learn to recognize there's a cost to demanding your shared space conform to your every desire as if you lived alone. If he gets crumbs in the jam, just start buying your own. "Conflict" is a violation of living agreements - cleanliness, noise, guests, security, privacy/confidentiality, and treatment of personal property/property for which you have liability as a tenant - it is not a failure to perform friendship in a specific way.
I have a friend I've known for years who lives with someone I only know as Roommate. I think they're on their 3rd or 4th place together. They have a relationship not unlike two coworkers who like each other fine but don't, like, go to lunch together unless it's another coworker's birthday. I think one of our friends does have Roommate's contact information (and vice versa) in case something happens to Friend, and Friend's parents also have their contact information, but we don't know her and have never had any expectation of meeting her, she's just...Roommate. And Friend has never had anything but good things to say about Roommate in terms of being a roommate (not that she comes up much, but occasionally it's something like "and Roommate texted me to tell me there was a car on fire in the street"). If I ever have to live with someone not my husband again, my goal 100% is to find me a Roommate.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:20 AM on September 4 [14 favorites]
You should move forward focused on yourself and finding a new place to live.
You are entitled to feel upset about how this transpired, but despite whatever framing you present -- you presented your roommate with a document of grievances and it predictably didn't land well.
posted by so fucking future at 7:25 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
You are entitled to feel upset about how this transpired, but despite whatever framing you present -- you presented your roommate with a document of grievances and it predictably didn't land well.
posted by so fucking future at 7:25 AM on September 4 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I have lived in many shared housing situations! Most ended with grievances, but several lasted on very good terms for many years. It is hard to find a compatible housemate. (Even the ones that lasted had ways in which we drove each other bananas - it's just intrinsic for most people.)
So on balance, it's not weird to me that you both have grievances and that some have been of long standing. I personally don't believe any of that "and I have always hated you from the beginning" business from your housemate, because in general what actually happens is that people find something moderately irritating at the start and either get so sick of it through not addressing it that they boil over or else bring it up as a HUGE DEAL if they are criticized, which is what I suspect is happening here.
My guess based on experience is that you are the cleaner one, she finds it hard to do an average amount of chores, there's a lot of leftist cruft and therapy-speak being leveraged here to try to get moral advantage, if you are hurt specifically by the leftist cruft you should feel free to disregard, she is responding poorly to being criticized and...you are probably going to have to move because there's two of them. You may be able to negotiate a rent break to help you do this - that's what I'd aim for, and that's what I have provided in a couple of instances of irreconcilable housemate conflict.
Also, I hate to say this but thirty can be really young, emotionally. I had some housemate stuff at thirty that I regret not handling better and it was because I was, I think, a decent and kind person but not someone with enough self-insight or emotional skills to handle conflict well. This could be you, this could be her, this could be you and her.
I will say that I am disinclined toward her and inclined toward you because of the whole “[If I help you out] it’s accommodations, NOT care, because I don’t care for you” bit - I mean, what the fuck? Who says that? That's not actually, like, leftist or therapeutic. Care ethics or whatever isn't "caring is about who you actually like, everything else is bloodless courtesy". Saying something like that is mean, not radical truthtelling or scrupulous leftism. People can be mean in the moment - who among us has not been? - but god knows it's not some kind of political slam dunk.
~~
Another thought: IME among the tumblr-ized and therapized there is a tendency to assume that if we just spell it all out really carefully and negotiate and probe and vent our feelings, etc, we can arrive at good feelings. This rarely works. If you feel like you need to write a statement about your problems with someone, then words are not the solution to the relationship. Radical material rearrangement is the only way, whether that's moving, changing the kitchen set-up, rescheduling things, etc. With a partner or a life-long housemate, seeing a therapist together might work, but in this kind of situation, frankly once it breaks it's broken.
~~~~
A note: the most successful housing situations I've been in were those where everyone was pretty emotionally self-contained. Introverts who like to spend time in their rooms, people with their primary friendships outside the house, etc. People with slightly different schedules provided that the place is relatively soundproof or everyone likes running fans or white noise machines. Also, I find it easier to live with people who are a little messier than me but introverts, so the mess is mostly contained in their rooms and they don't get upset if I'm messy.
The worst situations were where people came in really expecting a family-like friendship situation, and the trouble with that is that people won't believe you if you warn them. On two occasions, I had housemates where I specifically told them that we were a very introverted group and tended to spend lots of time apart, they came in with the expectation that we'd not only be friends but eat most meals together, cook together, hang out together in the evenings as a default, etc.
I've lived with friends and stayed friends, but that was because we were all introverts together.
posted by Frowner at 7:32 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
So on balance, it's not weird to me that you both have grievances and that some have been of long standing. I personally don't believe any of that "and I have always hated you from the beginning" business from your housemate, because in general what actually happens is that people find something moderately irritating at the start and either get so sick of it through not addressing it that they boil over or else bring it up as a HUGE DEAL if they are criticized, which is what I suspect is happening here.
My guess based on experience is that you are the cleaner one, she finds it hard to do an average amount of chores, there's a lot of leftist cruft and therapy-speak being leveraged here to try to get moral advantage, if you are hurt specifically by the leftist cruft you should feel free to disregard, she is responding poorly to being criticized and...you are probably going to have to move because there's two of them. You may be able to negotiate a rent break to help you do this - that's what I'd aim for, and that's what I have provided in a couple of instances of irreconcilable housemate conflict.
Also, I hate to say this but thirty can be really young, emotionally. I had some housemate stuff at thirty that I regret not handling better and it was because I was, I think, a decent and kind person but not someone with enough self-insight or emotional skills to handle conflict well. This could be you, this could be her, this could be you and her.
I will say that I am disinclined toward her and inclined toward you because of the whole “[If I help you out] it’s accommodations, NOT care, because I don’t care for you” bit - I mean, what the fuck? Who says that? That's not actually, like, leftist or therapeutic. Care ethics or whatever isn't "caring is about who you actually like, everything else is bloodless courtesy". Saying something like that is mean, not radical truthtelling or scrupulous leftism. People can be mean in the moment - who among us has not been? - but god knows it's not some kind of political slam dunk.
~~
Another thought: IME among the tumblr-ized and therapized there is a tendency to assume that if we just spell it all out really carefully and negotiate and probe and vent our feelings, etc, we can arrive at good feelings. This rarely works. If you feel like you need to write a statement about your problems with someone, then words are not the solution to the relationship. Radical material rearrangement is the only way, whether that's moving, changing the kitchen set-up, rescheduling things, etc. With a partner or a life-long housemate, seeing a therapist together might work, but in this kind of situation, frankly once it breaks it's broken.
~~~~
A note: the most successful housing situations I've been in were those where everyone was pretty emotionally self-contained. Introverts who like to spend time in their rooms, people with their primary friendships outside the house, etc. People with slightly different schedules provided that the place is relatively soundproof or everyone likes running fans or white noise machines. Also, I find it easier to live with people who are a little messier than me but introverts, so the mess is mostly contained in their rooms and they don't get upset if I'm messy.
The worst situations were where people came in really expecting a family-like friendship situation, and the trouble with that is that people won't believe you if you warn them. On two occasions, I had housemates where I specifically told them that we were a very introverted group and tended to spend lots of time apart, they came in with the expectation that we'd not only be friends but eat most meals together, cook together, hang out together in the evenings as a default, etc.
I've lived with friends and stayed friends, but that was because we were all introverts together.
posted by Frowner at 7:32 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I understand and empathize with your anger and upset. This sounds like a tough set of revelations.
One way to move forward is to reframe the situation, because quite honestly, this new "acquaintances only" phase could be amazing for you.
Think about it: You have a stable roommate with whom you're friendly, but no longer friends. You have their partner, with whom you're friendly as well. Because these people aren't part of your friend circle, you have zero social obligation to them.
It also sounds as if there's a standard around cleanliness in the house, and I don't know if your roommate is more or less tidy than you, but for some people, even having a roommate who acknowledges the need for keeping things clean would be a complete godsend.
I don't think you should ask them to leave. If I were you, I'd live with this for a few months, exploring what the new dynamic means for you as roommates. Relieving that social pressure might be what you three need to live together in harmony.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:37 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
One way to move forward is to reframe the situation, because quite honestly, this new "acquaintances only" phase could be amazing for you.
Think about it: You have a stable roommate with whom you're friendly, but no longer friends. You have their partner, with whom you're friendly as well. Because these people aren't part of your friend circle, you have zero social obligation to them.
It also sounds as if there's a standard around cleanliness in the house, and I don't know if your roommate is more or less tidy than you, but for some people, even having a roommate who acknowledges the need for keeping things clean would be a complete godsend.
I don't think you should ask them to leave. If I were you, I'd live with this for a few months, exploring what the new dynamic means for you as roommates. Relieving that social pressure might be what you three need to live together in harmony.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:37 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Yes, I thought "before moving in" probably (which is why I said "sounds like") meant you moved in with her, not the two of you moved in together, so I amend my answer that conventionally she is entitled to keep the place. But there's still two of them and one of you, so you're probably going to have to be the one to move. Unlike others here, I don't think it's inappropriate to ask them if they are willing to be the ones who move, but you've got to use plonkee's script--not because it will make them agree to do it (or even increase the odds that they will), but because it's the best chance you've got not to escalate things further by asking and make the situation yet more miserable before the household dissolves.
I continue to think that litigating the matter, and especially turning it into a question of violation of leftist values and failure to "be in community," either in your head or with them, will not help you at all, either emotionally or practically. The way this played out was really awful, but fundamentally it's a matter of roommate incompatibility, a problem that has cropped up a million times this morning alone across the globe and one that doesn't necessarily involve any moral fault at all. The sooner you can get to that understanding, the sooner you'll be able to move on.
posted by praemunire at 7:41 AM on September 4 [10 favorites]
I continue to think that litigating the matter, and especially turning it into a question of violation of leftist values and failure to "be in community," either in your head or with them, will not help you at all, either emotionally or practically. The way this played out was really awful, but fundamentally it's a matter of roommate incompatibility, a problem that has cropped up a million times this morning alone across the globe and one that doesn't necessarily involve any moral fault at all. The sooner you can get to that understanding, the sooner you'll be able to move on.
posted by praemunire at 7:41 AM on September 4 [10 favorites]
I agree with those saying that it sounds like you both have acted in ways that are unproductive to co-living. I too was confused why you'd need to share a 2-page document of grievances (!!!) when you have a regular house meeting where it's encouraged to hash things out. It sounds like both of you have allowed grievances to fester, and now you're both feeling hurt - wanting to avoid conflict is one thing, being so passive that you eventually become a ball of anger is another. Neither of you owe the other person anything concrete in this situation other than to try and be polite and civil to each other for the remainder of your time together.
If you were my friend, I'd advise you prioritize lowering the temperature - and assume she's just as angry as you are, and perhaps has other circumstances/stressors in her life right now that you don't know about. So I'd apologize for the 2-page document of grievances - even if she gave you permission to send it, it's rarely if ever productive to just dump that sort of material on another person. And then I'd try and address any concrete complaints she has - like the cleanliness issue. Maybe that means cleaning more, maybe having a chore chart, maybe pitching in to hire a cleaner - but I'd try to problem solve that one.
She’s okay with talking about logistics or conflicts only, and wants to downgrade our relationship to “acquaintance” (i.e. basic small talk or acknowledging each other’s existence is OK). I told her it made zero sense to try and talk only about the “hard stuff” without any of the basic grease of a relationship
This is fine - she doesn't want to be friends and she doesn't have to be your friend. It's understandable that that is hurtful, but I've had really positive housemate relationships with people where the conversation was just logistics + basic small talk. These were not friends, but people I could solve basic housemate tensions together.
If you cannot handle living with her after all of this, you should be on the lookout for a suitable replacement living situation. I would not ask nor expect her to help you in any way (labor, financial, etc.).
posted by coffeecat at 7:42 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
If you were my friend, I'd advise you prioritize lowering the temperature - and assume she's just as angry as you are, and perhaps has other circumstances/stressors in her life right now that you don't know about. So I'd apologize for the 2-page document of grievances - even if she gave you permission to send it, it's rarely if ever productive to just dump that sort of material on another person. And then I'd try and address any concrete complaints she has - like the cleanliness issue. Maybe that means cleaning more, maybe having a chore chart, maybe pitching in to hire a cleaner - but I'd try to problem solve that one.
She’s okay with talking about logistics or conflicts only, and wants to downgrade our relationship to “acquaintance” (i.e. basic small talk or acknowledging each other’s existence is OK). I told her it made zero sense to try and talk only about the “hard stuff” without any of the basic grease of a relationship
This is fine - she doesn't want to be friends and she doesn't have to be your friend. It's understandable that that is hurtful, but I've had really positive housemate relationships with people where the conversation was just logistics + basic small talk. These were not friends, but people I could solve basic housemate tensions together.
If you cannot handle living with her after all of this, you should be on the lookout for a suitable replacement living situation. I would not ask nor expect her to help you in any way (labor, financial, etc.).
posted by coffeecat at 7:42 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Best answer: The thing with housemates is that it's great if you start off as friendly acquaintances and then become friends - because then you have a bonus friend! - but it's tough to start as friends and then become housemates.
posted by Frowner at 8:17 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:17 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
My best shared-living situation was 100% "friendly acquaintance becomes friend," but even we had our conflicts. And, importantly, I knew I would be working crazy hours (and am naturally kind of a slob anyway), so I offered to pay for the majority of the cost of a cleaner.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
1. Am I allowed to be angry? Or does her behavior represent normal boundary-setting?
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that?
You are always allowed to be angry, but her behavior at the termination of that conversation does in fact represent normal boundary setting: you are clearly no longer friends, and she doesn't appear to want to pretend that you are. It is also asking for too much to, given you don't control the apartment in any way, want to set conditions for her to stay, or to ask her and her partner to leave and help you find a roommate.
First, it is actually really common for people who are living together not to mention when they have fallen out of friendship. As others have said, people living together is really, really hard, and it tends to cause irritations for people who aren't in love with each other. It's why a lot of people won't move in with their close friends, because of the danger of losing the friendship. This is doubly and triply the case if you have different expectations around cleanliness. It is clear that both of you came into this situation expecting it would be one of those 'everybody is friends with everybody' situations - this is especially (and unfortunately) common in leftist circles, and I've seen it go badly a lot, which appears to be the case in this situation. I think it's likely a situation where she was once friends and the irritations of those expectations have since overridden it - I agree with others in singing the praise of Politely Uninvolved Roommates.
Secondly, I agree with others saying that no good has ever been done in human history by a written multi page "itemized list of [thirty/two] years of grievance". I think it's something that conflict avoidant people often think will be easier, because when you're writing it, you don't have to see the person in front of you, but in fact, that lack of feedback allows you to say even more egregious stuff than you would have said in person, because you're not seeing their realtime reactions. A friend of mine once wrote a document like that and I still think of it from time to time as one of the most outrageous friend moments of my entire life. It is extremely natural for people to be upset by this, especially if you've been avoiding conflict all this time. You are now feeling hard done by that she brought up issues of her own in response to this, which made you feel stressed and triggered your disability. I understand this emotion, as someone who has a stress related disability - but you created this emotional situation, this was the entirely predictable response of sending someone a list of grievances. I suspect things like that "[x] is accommodations, not care" is probably a response to one of your statements, rather than initiated solo - either that you don't care about their disability, or perhaps you suggested that they are in fact still friends because of still doing care-like activity. Someone is always going to bring up their defenses, which are often going to include counter-accusations. In future, if you don't have the emotional capacity to work out disagreements, I would not suggest opening a conversation about those disagreements.
I think you are really hurt right now and coming from a place of hurt; some of your questions also seem to ignore kind of basic points that I think you probably already know. You ask why she moved in with you or had a roommate at all if she doesn't like living with them: the answer is almost undoubtedly capitalism, because shared living expenses are cheaper than solo living expenses. I prefer living alone or with a romantic partner to having a roommate: I lived with roommates when I couldn't afford to comfortably live alone. This is very normal. Most people don't prefer living with roommates; they do it for the financial incentives. This is why she likely wants to continue living with you despite only wanting to be acquaintances with you: because the finances make sense.
In this case, since you are the only one who finds the living situation intolerable - which I understand, because you're basically feeling like there's an enemy in your own house - I think you need to be the one to leave. I know you say you're too overwhelmed to move unless they give you money for a mover, but I think you need to start saving for it if it's of importance to you.
posted by corb at 8:35 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
3. Am I asking for too much re: asking her to take ownership of her mistakes, apologize, and improve her communication + conflict resolution skills to keep living here?
4. Is it fair to ask the two of them to move out and help me find a new roommate, and how would I ask them to do that?
You are always allowed to be angry, but her behavior at the termination of that conversation does in fact represent normal boundary setting: you are clearly no longer friends, and she doesn't appear to want to pretend that you are. It is also asking for too much to, given you don't control the apartment in any way, want to set conditions for her to stay, or to ask her and her partner to leave and help you find a roommate.
First, it is actually really common for people who are living together not to mention when they have fallen out of friendship. As others have said, people living together is really, really hard, and it tends to cause irritations for people who aren't in love with each other. It's why a lot of people won't move in with their close friends, because of the danger of losing the friendship. This is doubly and triply the case if you have different expectations around cleanliness. It is clear that both of you came into this situation expecting it would be one of those 'everybody is friends with everybody' situations - this is especially (and unfortunately) common in leftist circles, and I've seen it go badly a lot, which appears to be the case in this situation. I think it's likely a situation where she was once friends and the irritations of those expectations have since overridden it - I agree with others in singing the praise of Politely Uninvolved Roommates.
Secondly, I agree with others saying that no good has ever been done in human history by a written multi page "itemized list of [thirty/two] years of grievance". I think it's something that conflict avoidant people often think will be easier, because when you're writing it, you don't have to see the person in front of you, but in fact, that lack of feedback allows you to say even more egregious stuff than you would have said in person, because you're not seeing their realtime reactions. A friend of mine once wrote a document like that and I still think of it from time to time as one of the most outrageous friend moments of my entire life. It is extremely natural for people to be upset by this, especially if you've been avoiding conflict all this time. You are now feeling hard done by that she brought up issues of her own in response to this, which made you feel stressed and triggered your disability. I understand this emotion, as someone who has a stress related disability - but you created this emotional situation, this was the entirely predictable response of sending someone a list of grievances. I suspect things like that "[x] is accommodations, not care" is probably a response to one of your statements, rather than initiated solo - either that you don't care about their disability, or perhaps you suggested that they are in fact still friends because of still doing care-like activity. Someone is always going to bring up their defenses, which are often going to include counter-accusations. In future, if you don't have the emotional capacity to work out disagreements, I would not suggest opening a conversation about those disagreements.
I think you are really hurt right now and coming from a place of hurt; some of your questions also seem to ignore kind of basic points that I think you probably already know. You ask why she moved in with you or had a roommate at all if she doesn't like living with them: the answer is almost undoubtedly capitalism, because shared living expenses are cheaper than solo living expenses. I prefer living alone or with a romantic partner to having a roommate: I lived with roommates when I couldn't afford to comfortably live alone. This is very normal. Most people don't prefer living with roommates; they do it for the financial incentives. This is why she likely wants to continue living with you despite only wanting to be acquaintances with you: because the finances make sense.
In this case, since you are the only one who finds the living situation intolerable - which I understand, because you're basically feeling like there's an enemy in your own house - I think you need to be the one to leave. I know you say you're too overwhelmed to move unless they give you money for a mover, but I think you need to start saving for it if it's of importance to you.
posted by corb at 8:35 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I haven't read all the responses here but I'm sure you have plenty of great advice. I just want to say: OH MY GOD people like your roommate are the worst!!
These are "conflict avoidant" "people pleasers" who will pile up resentments against you in secret instead of addressing each one honestly with you as they arise. They're immature, they don't know how to handle any kind of relationship with honesty, and will lie to you every day for years with a smile that nothing is wrong. And then, suddenly, after years and years of piling things up, they will explode at you out of the blue and end the relationship without any warning.
They will feel perfectly righteous and justified since they have a very, very long list of grievances by that point... however, since they never gave you any hint that they were unhappy, you never had a chance to understand their experience or fix what you were doing. You never even knew that you were doing something wrong. And now you're the "bad guy" who basically persecuted your friend relentlessly for all those years while they suffered "nobly" in silence.
Passive-aggressive people are dangerous. I'm sorry that you, too, have been burned by one. I hope this experience makes you committed to *true* kindness towards everyone you have a relationship with - which always includes honesty and giving people a chance to fix their mistakes. My encounters with passive aggressive assholes has genuinely changed my life and relationships for the better because I know now what I should never, ever do.
posted by MiraK at 8:38 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
These are "conflict avoidant" "people pleasers" who will pile up resentments against you in secret instead of addressing each one honestly with you as they arise. They're immature, they don't know how to handle any kind of relationship with honesty, and will lie to you every day for years with a smile that nothing is wrong. And then, suddenly, after years and years of piling things up, they will explode at you out of the blue and end the relationship without any warning.
They will feel perfectly righteous and justified since they have a very, very long list of grievances by that point... however, since they never gave you any hint that they were unhappy, you never had a chance to understand their experience or fix what you were doing. You never even knew that you were doing something wrong. And now you're the "bad guy" who basically persecuted your friend relentlessly for all those years while they suffered "nobly" in silence.
Passive-aggressive people are dangerous. I'm sorry that you, too, have been burned by one. I hope this experience makes you committed to *true* kindness towards everyone you have a relationship with - which always includes honesty and giving people a chance to fix their mistakes. My encounters with passive aggressive assholes has genuinely changed my life and relationships for the better because I know now what I should never, ever do.
posted by MiraK at 8:38 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Best answer: On skimming the rest of these answers: your document of grievances absolutely does not justify what your roommate did to you.
Was your document of grievances over the top? Yes. Was it a proportional response to whatever she did that caused you to have grievances? Nope. It's really kind of weird and atypical and also super hurtful, discombobulating, etc. when you are presented with a written list of grievances. Going forward I hope you will wait until your feelings have receded from their peak, and condense your issues into maybe one or two sentences delivered (ideally) verbally.
But your mistake is an honest mistake. It comes from overthinking things and trying too hard to fix what is wrong between the both of you. I bet my eyeteeth that your two pages were filled mostly with trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and trying to express your feelings in an inoffensive way. That tends to cause people to use way too many words.
Her reaction, on the other hand, is the opposite of an honest mistake. It is a dishonest and malicious lash-out. It is the oldest trick in the fragile ego's book that when you try to bring up an issue with their behavior, as gently and carefully as you can, they will lash out at you listing all of YOUR flaws and mistakes. It's a great way for them to avoid accountability: they accuse you as a diversion and a distraction from the topic at hand. It usually works.
I didn't think it was possible but I now have even less respect for your roommate. What a nightmare of a person!
posted by MiraK at 9:13 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Was your document of grievances over the top? Yes. Was it a proportional response to whatever she did that caused you to have grievances? Nope. It's really kind of weird and atypical and also super hurtful, discombobulating, etc. when you are presented with a written list of grievances. Going forward I hope you will wait until your feelings have receded from their peak, and condense your issues into maybe one or two sentences delivered (ideally) verbally.
But your mistake is an honest mistake. It comes from overthinking things and trying too hard to fix what is wrong between the both of you. I bet my eyeteeth that your two pages were filled mostly with trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and trying to express your feelings in an inoffensive way. That tends to cause people to use way too many words.
Her reaction, on the other hand, is the opposite of an honest mistake. It is a dishonest and malicious lash-out. It is the oldest trick in the fragile ego's book that when you try to bring up an issue with their behavior, as gently and carefully as you can, they will lash out at you listing all of YOUR flaws and mistakes. It's a great way for them to avoid accountability: they accuse you as a diversion and a distraction from the topic at hand. It usually works.
I didn't think it was possible but I now have even less respect for your roommate. What a nightmare of a person!
posted by MiraK at 9:13 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: hello! I appreciate all the answers so far and will mull them over! since people are curious about the content/context of the document:
- I looked again... it's only a bit longer than a page
- I understand that randomly sending people a doc of grievances is not good! Essentially, Z solicited it but maybe I shouldn't have taken her up on the offer
- I originally tried to have an in-person convo with Z and X about the contents (which concerned both of them), which they agreed to, then X was too tired and Z went on vacation for while, we had another exchange about disability language over text during her vacation in which she said that she was being an asshole and asked me to give her feedback in any way that I saw fit (her words: "I feel like you're trying to be polite but I know I've been an asshole so you're welcome to just say what you need to say in whatever way you see fit.")
- Hence, the doc, which became a little more directed toward Z.
- contents of the doc were pretty mild IMO - it was focused on the last 2 weeks. I was feeling sad/upset that X and Z were moving but didn't tell me directly and I found out from them tangentially, that I asked for more planning around kitchen use but Z responded with a dismissive (to me) "we just cook whenever we cook," and that one of the roommate dinners had really weird vibes and I wanted to understand the context. I mostly just asked for more context, and that they communicate better and more directly about roommate stuff.
- the contents struck me as so minor compared to Z's reaction that I didn't talk about it in the question but maybe it was a mistake to leave out its role!
posted by switchback at 10:02 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
- I looked again... it's only a bit longer than a page
- I understand that randomly sending people a doc of grievances is not good! Essentially, Z solicited it but maybe I shouldn't have taken her up on the offer
- I originally tried to have an in-person convo with Z and X about the contents (which concerned both of them), which they agreed to, then X was too tired and Z went on vacation for while, we had another exchange about disability language over text during her vacation in which she said that she was being an asshole and asked me to give her feedback in any way that I saw fit (her words: "I feel like you're trying to be polite but I know I've been an asshole so you're welcome to just say what you need to say in whatever way you see fit.")
- Hence, the doc, which became a little more directed toward Z.
- contents of the doc were pretty mild IMO - it was focused on the last 2 weeks. I was feeling sad/upset that X and Z were moving but didn't tell me directly and I found out from them tangentially, that I asked for more planning around kitchen use but Z responded with a dismissive (to me) "we just cook whenever we cook," and that one of the roommate dinners had really weird vibes and I wanted to understand the context. I mostly just asked for more context, and that they communicate better and more directly about roommate stuff.
- the contents struck me as so minor compared to Z's reaction that I didn't talk about it in the question but maybe it was a mistake to leave out its role!
posted by switchback at 10:02 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
Wait, X and Z are already planning to move?
posted by tristeza at 10:04 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 10:04 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: not to threadsit but yes: in a pretty indeterminate timeframe (1-3 years)
posted by switchback at 10:06 AM on September 4
posted by switchback at 10:06 AM on September 4
Response by poster: to clarify: when we were trying to have an in-person convo, there was no doc written up, I would have just said a couple of sentences in person - only after Z asked for feedback "in whatever way you see fit" did I write it up. I was feeling too emotional to do a phone call when she was on vacation
posted by switchback at 10:12 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
posted by switchback at 10:12 AM on September 4 [2 favorites]
Based on your update- this just sounds exhausting, way more drama than anyone needs. You are both more involved emotionally than is necessary for roommates, even friendly ones. The sooner you can step away from the whole ‘who said what when’ the better. Focus on resolving that unsustainable living situation on a practical level.
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:43 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:43 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Just to give my gut feeling as someone in a leftist/earthy-crunchy milieu, I feel like X and Z are trying - probably unconsciously - to use the right language and give the right impression about their habits and values without actually wanting to enact those habits and values. Saying, "I've been an asshole, I am open to criticism on this" and then claiming that she never liked you anyway when criticism actually came her way is not the action of someone actually wanted to hear criticism. Saying that any modality would do and then getting upset about a written document isn't either. That's what someone does when they feel that they should say the right things about hearing criticism but can't actually handle criticism and would have preferred to just sweep things under the rug.
Granted, all of the things you cite sound like the very kind of vague unfixable problems that torpedo housing arrangements. People who don't want to schedule shared space, interactions that have weird vibes, making a plan to move that you're talking about widely enough in your friendship network that it gets back to your roommate who you haven't told - that's not really stuff that you can demand that people not do, but it's also stuff that is pretty unbearable.
posted by Frowner at 11:02 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
Granted, all of the things you cite sound like the very kind of vague unfixable problems that torpedo housing arrangements. People who don't want to schedule shared space, interactions that have weird vibes, making a plan to move that you're talking about widely enough in your friendship network that it gets back to your roommate who you haven't told - that's not really stuff that you can demand that people not do, but it's also stuff that is pretty unbearable.
posted by Frowner at 11:02 AM on September 4 [19 favorites]
I was feeling sad/upset that X and Z were moving but didn't tell me directly and I found out from them tangentially, that I asked for more planning around kitchen use but Z responded with a dismissive (to me) "we just cook whenever we cook," and that one of the roommate dinners had really weird vibes and I wanted to understand the context
Honestly it's hard to know what the situation is or what personalities you all have from the tiny snapshot of this thread, especially given that it's all being reported by a single narrator.
For whatever it's worth, though: if someone told me (much less wrote me) that they were upset they didn't know firsthand about some very vague plans to move in the fairly distant future, I would be thinking 'wtf?' and that they were being unpleasantly clingy and controlling.
If a roommate told me they wanted to plan out kitchen use time - I mean there are some scenarios where maybe that could make sense, but it's not incredibly normal. If the cleanliness mismatch you described has you as the cleaner roommate, I could see these two things adding up to what Z might feel is a somewhat controlling approach. Which doesn't feel good to live with.
If somebody I'm not in a really deep relationship with wanted to hash out my vibes in writing, instead of just asking a quick "everything okay?", I would read that as heavy and controlling too (though that's partly because of my own issues and background.)
All of those things, separately and especially together, read to me as way heavier than I'd like from a roommate. Exhausting is right. And because of my own background, I might read it as controlling and start to feel claustrophobic and oppressed. Some people are into these kinds of heavy relationships and that's great, but I'd have lost my patience pretty quickly. It's funny because I would also describe myself as "I generally prefer to repair relationships", but not like this; that statement reads pretty differently to me in this context.
All of which is to say - you've put a lot of effort in this thread to present yourself well, which is 100% natural and may well be 100% accurate for all I know. But strongly consider that you might have created a not-that-easy living environment for Z too, without much self awareness about it (which would also, alas, be 100% normal. We don't know what we don't know.)
Anyway, who cares. Litigating isn't important. Thinking in terms of fault or responsibility or wrongs committed isn't helpful. You're just way too mismatched.
The only thing worth thinking about now is your own path going forward. Ideally one that doesn't expect them to apologize or "take ownership" or tidily remove themselves from the apartment to make your life easier or otherwise act as though your interpretation of events is the only objective truth.
posted by trig at 11:05 AM on September 4 [11 favorites]
Honestly it's hard to know what the situation is or what personalities you all have from the tiny snapshot of this thread, especially given that it's all being reported by a single narrator.
For whatever it's worth, though: if someone told me (much less wrote me) that they were upset they didn't know firsthand about some very vague plans to move in the fairly distant future, I would be thinking 'wtf?' and that they were being unpleasantly clingy and controlling.
If a roommate told me they wanted to plan out kitchen use time - I mean there are some scenarios where maybe that could make sense, but it's not incredibly normal. If the cleanliness mismatch you described has you as the cleaner roommate, I could see these two things adding up to what Z might feel is a somewhat controlling approach. Which doesn't feel good to live with.
If somebody I'm not in a really deep relationship with wanted to hash out my vibes in writing, instead of just asking a quick "everything okay?", I would read that as heavy and controlling too (though that's partly because of my own issues and background.)
All of those things, separately and especially together, read to me as way heavier than I'd like from a roommate. Exhausting is right. And because of my own background, I might read it as controlling and start to feel claustrophobic and oppressed. Some people are into these kinds of heavy relationships and that's great, but I'd have lost my patience pretty quickly. It's funny because I would also describe myself as "I generally prefer to repair relationships", but not like this; that statement reads pretty differently to me in this context.
All of which is to say - you've put a lot of effort in this thread to present yourself well, which is 100% natural and may well be 100% accurate for all I know. But strongly consider that you might have created a not-that-easy living environment for Z too, without much self awareness about it (which would also, alas, be 100% normal. We don't know what we don't know.)
Anyway, who cares. Litigating isn't important. Thinking in terms of fault or responsibility or wrongs committed isn't helpful. You're just way too mismatched.
The only thing worth thinking about now is your own path going forward. Ideally one that doesn't expect them to apologize or "take ownership" or tidily remove themselves from the apartment to make your life easier or otherwise act as though your interpretation of events is the only objective truth.
posted by trig at 11:05 AM on September 4 [11 favorites]
You documented that you are sad/upset that they didn't tell you that they plan to move in 1-3 YEARS? I would probably also want to unload every tiny slight I had ever felt from you in response to that, because holy hell.
I think it's clear that you're both treating normal human foibles as grievous insults to your person. Maybe they're indulging in some revisionist history. Maybe you're blowing things wildly out of proportion. There is no right and wrong in this kind of situation and it doesn't matter if the internet declares you right anyway, because you are never going to convince them that you are right and you being right doesn't matter because it changes nothing about the outcome which is that you can't live with this person.
Neither of you has clear rights to the apartment so you cannot demand that they leave. You can try to convince them to leave, but at this point, honestly, I suspect that would run the risk of them deciding to stay to spite you.
Stay out of their way as much as you can and hope they do the same until you can figure out a plan to move out or until they figure out a plan to move out.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:09 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
I think it's clear that you're both treating normal human foibles as grievous insults to your person. Maybe they're indulging in some revisionist history. Maybe you're blowing things wildly out of proportion. There is no right and wrong in this kind of situation and it doesn't matter if the internet declares you right anyway, because you are never going to convince them that you are right and you being right doesn't matter because it changes nothing about the outcome which is that you can't live with this person.
Neither of you has clear rights to the apartment so you cannot demand that they leave. You can try to convince them to leave, but at this point, honestly, I suspect that would run the risk of them deciding to stay to spite you.
Stay out of their way as much as you can and hope they do the same until you can figure out a plan to move out or until they figure out a plan to move out.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:09 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Best answer: "I feel like you're trying to be polite but I know I've been an asshole so you're welcome to just say what you need to say in whatever way you see fit."
Huh... So she tells you you're welcome to bring grievances and then she basically says "you are not welcome and what's more, we were never friends." It's a teensy bit contradictory.
To me it sounds like the match is bad principally because she feels like the division of labor is off. I think she probably is cycling back and forth from guilt (about not doing enough) to rage (about doing so much already and it's not appreciated) and hence is not thinking in a nice, clean, bullet-list way. I bet at "roommate dinner" she feels overwhelmed and not able to deliver nice, clean, complete, and honest bullet lists of grievances. It's either she listens in accommodating silence to your grievances and agrees to do better and mollifies you with a couple of easy things from her own concealed list of rage-inspiring beefs, or she flames out in rage and spills the terrible truth, which is that she resents having to work so much and adhere to your house rules that govern her time (please attend the regularly scheduled roommate dinners; please mark your kitchen time on the house calendar so that we're not co-cooking in hell). Hence she hates roommate dinner. Which... okay, full disclosure, as somebody who can barely stand the standard 40-hour work week and really reeeeeeeeally does not like incursions on my free time for things that resemble work, roommate dinner sounds like a bimonthly one-hour wall of suck to me, too.
Reading between the lines, she feels she's been spending a lot of her time and energy on this already and feels put-upon and unappreciated, but she also feels like you probably deserve the accommodations you're asking for, so she feels bad about herself not being a person who can provide that for you and not resent you.
What's this: "she doesn’t trust me (she got angry at me for ordering something via overnight air, meanwhile, it was just Amazon Prime, which she knew I had…)"?
Does she have some notion that she has moral/ethical skin in the game, like "why are you using jet fuel to get Q-tips sent to an apartment I live in when we agreed at roommate dinner #46 to walk lightly upon our Earth?" Or does she have a personal stake in it--like she has to be there to make sure the package doesn't get porchpirated or something?
Anyway, bad match. Either solve the labor and time issue with constant, liberal lashings of delicious money (hire a cleaner and a mediator and get meals delivered); or somebody moves out. Maybe once you're not living together you can both realize that you were pretty good friends if terrible roommates, and it might be worth trying out friendship again.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:20 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Huh... So she tells you you're welcome to bring grievances and then she basically says "you are not welcome and what's more, we were never friends." It's a teensy bit contradictory.
To me it sounds like the match is bad principally because she feels like the division of labor is off. I think she probably is cycling back and forth from guilt (about not doing enough) to rage (about doing so much already and it's not appreciated) and hence is not thinking in a nice, clean, bullet-list way. I bet at "roommate dinner" she feels overwhelmed and not able to deliver nice, clean, complete, and honest bullet lists of grievances. It's either she listens in accommodating silence to your grievances and agrees to do better and mollifies you with a couple of easy things from her own concealed list of rage-inspiring beefs, or she flames out in rage and spills the terrible truth, which is that she resents having to work so much and adhere to your house rules that govern her time (please attend the regularly scheduled roommate dinners; please mark your kitchen time on the house calendar so that we're not co-cooking in hell). Hence she hates roommate dinner. Which... okay, full disclosure, as somebody who can barely stand the standard 40-hour work week and really reeeeeeeeally does not like incursions on my free time for things that resemble work, roommate dinner sounds like a bimonthly one-hour wall of suck to me, too.
Reading between the lines, she feels she's been spending a lot of her time and energy on this already and feels put-upon and unappreciated, but she also feels like you probably deserve the accommodations you're asking for, so she feels bad about herself not being a person who can provide that for you and not resent you.
What's this: "she doesn’t trust me (she got angry at me for ordering something via overnight air, meanwhile, it was just Amazon Prime, which she knew I had…)"?
Does she have some notion that she has moral/ethical skin in the game, like "why are you using jet fuel to get Q-tips sent to an apartment I live in when we agreed at roommate dinner #46 to walk lightly upon our Earth?" Or does she have a personal stake in it--like she has to be there to make sure the package doesn't get porchpirated or something?
Anyway, bad match. Either solve the labor and time issue with constant, liberal lashings of delicious money (hire a cleaner and a mediator and get meals delivered); or somebody moves out. Maybe once you're not living together you can both realize that you were pretty good friends if terrible roommates, and it might be worth trying out friendship again.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:20 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Symmetry is often a decent proxy for fairness, and your ideas about what to do aren't symmetrical. If they move out, you think they should help you find a roommate, but if you move out, you don't mention that you'd help them find one. If they want you to move out, you think they should pay you, but you don't mention that you'd pay anything for them to move out. If she wants to stay, she'd have to work on becoming a better person, but you don't mention any conditions if you want to stay.
I'm guessing that the asymmetries make sense to you because you think she's the one at fault. And the thing is, she well might be. But in her mind, you're the one at fault, so you'll never get her to think asymmetries that favor you are fair.
You know the "I cut, you choose" way of dividing food fairly? Maybe think about that here. Imagine what conditions would be ok for the one who moves out and the one who stays -- that you'd consider fair no matter whether they're the ones moving or you are. Then after you've all cooled off, maybe approach them saying that you feel like either they or you need to move, and you'd rather stay, and see what they think. If you come up with symmetrical conditions, you could bring those up and see if they agree. But you've got to do that from a position of understanding that you and they have equal footing here -- it's not up to you to angle for conditions because she's at fault any more than the reverse is true.
(Incidentally, I suspect that she's overstating the degree to which you were never friends because being angry is impacting hindsight. I hope this is the worst of it, and it gets better for all of you from here.)
posted by daisyace at 11:47 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
I'm guessing that the asymmetries make sense to you because you think she's the one at fault. And the thing is, she well might be. But in her mind, you're the one at fault, so you'll never get her to think asymmetries that favor you are fair.
You know the "I cut, you choose" way of dividing food fairly? Maybe think about that here. Imagine what conditions would be ok for the one who moves out and the one who stays -- that you'd consider fair no matter whether they're the ones moving or you are. Then after you've all cooled off, maybe approach them saying that you feel like either they or you need to move, and you'd rather stay, and see what they think. If you come up with symmetrical conditions, you could bring those up and see if they agree. But you've got to do that from a position of understanding that you and they have equal footing here -- it's not up to you to angle for conditions because she's at fault any more than the reverse is true.
(Incidentally, I suspect that she's overstating the degree to which you were never friends because being angry is impacting hindsight. I hope this is the worst of it, and it gets better for all of you from here.)
posted by daisyace at 11:47 AM on September 4 [8 favorites]
It sounds to me like Z was telling you that you could be less polite about how you stated whatever conversation you were already having - not that she was inviting you to drop a full-page document of vague grievances like bad vibes and "you didn't tell me yet about something that isn't going to happen for at least a year." I can see why that would have prompted an escalation in response, though it still doesn't sound like her response was proportionate or kind or thoughtful.
I think you've both behaved somewhat badly here, are reacting very badly to each other's reactions and stuck in a pretty unpleasant spiral, and that you should take the rest of Z's vacation to drop all of this, altogether. Stop talking about it. Take a break from each other and let things cool down. Try to reset to "polite, small-talk-and-logistics-roommates-only when she's back. You don't need to be in community with her or have roommate dinners; you can just be people who share a space and some bills. You don't need her to notify you on her planned kitchen usage; you can just proactively tell *her* that you're going to plan to use the kitchen at XYZ times and ask her to let you know if she has any plans that interferes with.
You can take some time and think over whether that is going to be tolerable for the remainder of your lease, or whether it's going to be so unpleasant that it's worth moving. Assume them moving now is a non-starter, unless they tell you they're thinking about it, and proceed accordingly.
posted by Stacey at 11:49 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
I think you've both behaved somewhat badly here, are reacting very badly to each other's reactions and stuck in a pretty unpleasant spiral, and that you should take the rest of Z's vacation to drop all of this, altogether. Stop talking about it. Take a break from each other and let things cool down. Try to reset to "polite, small-talk-and-logistics-roommates-only when she's back. You don't need to be in community with her or have roommate dinners; you can just be people who share a space and some bills. You don't need her to notify you on her planned kitchen usage; you can just proactively tell *her* that you're going to plan to use the kitchen at XYZ times and ask her to let you know if she has any plans that interferes with.
You can take some time and think over whether that is going to be tolerable for the remainder of your lease, or whether it's going to be so unpleasant that it's worth moving. Assume them moving now is a non-starter, unless they tell you they're thinking about it, and proceed accordingly.
posted by Stacey at 11:49 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
All of those things, separately and especially together, read to me as way heavier than I'd like from a roommate.
This. I talk with my live-in romantic partner about what I'm planning to cook pretty much every night, because it's understood that we are eating together. But when I was living with a roommate, we would only coordinate cooking times if someone, for example, had a big date where they were cooking a complex meal. Short of that, kitchen was first-come, first-serve. Similarly, my live-in romantic partner needs to inform me of every one of their intentions about where to move, years in advance, because it is anticipated that I will be involved in those plans. But my roommate just needs to give me a couple months of notice at best, because I assume they're going to be looking for a better situation eventually. This is a strong mismatch of expectations and is going to make everyone unhappy if there aren't firm boundaries.
If Z and X are planning to move already in 1-3 years, can you stick it out for that time, assuming you are going to be cordial strangers in the same house? I know you said that discussing logistics doesn't make sense without the 'grease' of relationship, but lots of people make it work when they aren't planning to maintain friendships with those people. Do you have a regular therapist? Would it be possible to process your emotions with someone like that so that you could have capacity to have a more distanced roommate relationship?
posted by corb at 2:30 PM on September 4 [3 favorites]
This. I talk with my live-in romantic partner about what I'm planning to cook pretty much every night, because it's understood that we are eating together. But when I was living with a roommate, we would only coordinate cooking times if someone, for example, had a big date where they were cooking a complex meal. Short of that, kitchen was first-come, first-serve. Similarly, my live-in romantic partner needs to inform me of every one of their intentions about where to move, years in advance, because it is anticipated that I will be involved in those plans. But my roommate just needs to give me a couple months of notice at best, because I assume they're going to be looking for a better situation eventually. This is a strong mismatch of expectations and is going to make everyone unhappy if there aren't firm boundaries.
If Z and X are planning to move already in 1-3 years, can you stick it out for that time, assuming you are going to be cordial strangers in the same house? I know you said that discussing logistics doesn't make sense without the 'grease' of relationship, but lots of people make it work when they aren't planning to maintain friendships with those people. Do you have a regular therapist? Would it be possible to process your emotions with someone like that so that you could have capacity to have a more distanced roommate relationship?
posted by corb at 2:30 PM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: hello! just want to clarify one more important detail: mutual friends said they were trying to talk Z out of taking such a "blunt and escalated" approach before I even sent the doc. It sounds like she was already planning to do this on the basis of one text I sent that only said "Hey, I'm not feeling great about some aspects of communication and sharing space, can we talk about things in person?" and the (non-escalated) text exchange around disability language. Though I can totally see that actually seeing the doc is what made her escalate even further!
It seems that this is a pretty nuanced situation where it's hard for me to explain the full detail, but the details matter. Neither Z nor X had major issues with the content of the doc, actually... for example, they both saw the kitchen request as reasonable because it's hard for 3 people to cook at the same time in our kitchen (they always cook together), so we figured out a compromise around sharing space where if I wanted to cook, one of them would step out of the kitchen and the other one would keep cooking. Re: roommate dinner, it was more about feeling on the receiving end of shocking rudeness (to me) but missing the context around why that was happening.
I'm very willing to think about what role I've played here and am doing so—I definitely see that I had many blind spots around asking for accommodations, explaining my health situation, etc! Z also felt like she put more physical effort into the apartment, but I had no idea until this convo that it was so important to her, for instance, so I offered to find a cleaner, and things like that. Frowner and Don Pepino, you've really helped me understand where Z is coming from. Perhaps I should have phrased the question as "help me understand Z's thinking" rather than "am I right."
Anyway, I agree with those saying to step back from the details a bit and I'll be doing that as well as stepping back from this thread. (The jabs about leftism are weird, btw - I do not think that Z has abused me, nor does she think that of me. We already know that conflict is not abuse.)
I appreciate all the feedback so far.
posted by switchback at 3:20 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
It seems that this is a pretty nuanced situation where it's hard for me to explain the full detail, but the details matter. Neither Z nor X had major issues with the content of the doc, actually... for example, they both saw the kitchen request as reasonable because it's hard for 3 people to cook at the same time in our kitchen (they always cook together), so we figured out a compromise around sharing space where if I wanted to cook, one of them would step out of the kitchen and the other one would keep cooking. Re: roommate dinner, it was more about feeling on the receiving end of shocking rudeness (to me) but missing the context around why that was happening.
I'm very willing to think about what role I've played here and am doing so—I definitely see that I had many blind spots around asking for accommodations, explaining my health situation, etc! Z also felt like she put more physical effort into the apartment, but I had no idea until this convo that it was so important to her, for instance, so I offered to find a cleaner, and things like that. Frowner and Don Pepino, you've really helped me understand where Z is coming from. Perhaps I should have phrased the question as "help me understand Z's thinking" rather than "am I right."
Anyway, I agree with those saying to step back from the details a bit and I'll be doing that as well as stepping back from this thread. (The jabs about leftism are weird, btw - I do not think that Z has abused me, nor does she think that of me. We already know that conflict is not abuse.)
I appreciate all the feedback so far.
posted by switchback at 3:20 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
Best answer: From your update I just have one other caution from my time with roommates. You said your mutual friends said she was going to escalate. When I had a friend group, one of whom was my roommate, my roommate and I agreed “what goes down at home, stays at home” with respect to mutual friends*. Any roommate is going to have moments of frustration with each other because it’s a close living situation. It might be wise to talk about your roommates with friends you have that aren’t friends with them. Otherwise the stakes go up…if she stands to lose more friends than you if she’s “wrong” or you do if you’re “wrong” then it may be harder to back down (or to not sort of keep justifying whatever out loud.)
Just something to think about as you navigate this.With the exception of people stealing/cheating/cheating on me, I’ve rarely gone wrong assuming the best about my friends. Even if I was naive or things didn’t work out, being the cheery person has some cred.
* we agreed that in 1991, and all 4 of us are still friends!
posted by warriorqueen at 6:09 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Just something to think about as you navigate this.With the exception of people stealing/cheating/cheating on me, I’ve rarely gone wrong assuming the best about my friends. Even if I was naive or things didn’t work out, being the cheery person has some cred.
* we agreed that in 1991, and all 4 of us are still friends!
posted by warriorqueen at 6:09 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I control-F'd for "therap" and didn't see this mentioned so---
No matter what else has gone on, or why, or whatever, YOU HAVE SUFFERED A SIGNIFICANT LOSS. You had a friend, for two years-- in your mind, anyway-- and suddenly, she's not only gone, but has actively betrayed you. Worse, she's not 'dead', she's a vengeful zombie that lives in your home and knows your weaknesses. It is hell, I've been there.
That is an incredibly painful experience, and you are going to be clinically grieving. You've lost not only a good friend, but a comfortable home, a future you were expecting, a sense of yourself as you were seen by those close to you-- that's a huge mental shock.
This is absolutely a time to seek out a mental health professional, crisis counsellor, anything-- if you don't have a regular therapist, you should at least get someone to talk to for a session or two. The details (who moves out, why it happened, etc) should be dealt with, of course, and you've got a lot of good advice here to go on for all of that. But I've been in your position and it was hugely helpful to have a therapist basically be there to help me talk through my stages of grief; anger ("How dare she?") Denial ("It can't be that bad") Bargaining ("Maybe if I apologize just right") etc...
I'm so sorry this has happened to you. It sucks, so very, very much. You'll recover, but it will take some time. My own suggestion is find a new place to live (because even if you 'win' and they move out, the apartment will always remind you of them "that's the stain where Z spilled the tomato sauce..." and IMHO a fresh start is a much better way to go forward.
Sending love and sympathy.
posted by The otter lady at 6:28 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
No matter what else has gone on, or why, or whatever, YOU HAVE SUFFERED A SIGNIFICANT LOSS. You had a friend, for two years-- in your mind, anyway-- and suddenly, she's not only gone, but has actively betrayed you. Worse, she's not 'dead', she's a vengeful zombie that lives in your home and knows your weaknesses. It is hell, I've been there.
That is an incredibly painful experience, and you are going to be clinically grieving. You've lost not only a good friend, but a comfortable home, a future you were expecting, a sense of yourself as you were seen by those close to you-- that's a huge mental shock.
This is absolutely a time to seek out a mental health professional, crisis counsellor, anything-- if you don't have a regular therapist, you should at least get someone to talk to for a session or two. The details (who moves out, why it happened, etc) should be dealt with, of course, and you've got a lot of good advice here to go on for all of that. But I've been in your position and it was hugely helpful to have a therapist basically be there to help me talk through my stages of grief; anger ("How dare she?") Denial ("It can't be that bad") Bargaining ("Maybe if I apologize just right") etc...
I'm so sorry this has happened to you. It sucks, so very, very much. You'll recover, but it will take some time. My own suggestion is find a new place to live (because even if you 'win' and they move out, the apartment will always remind you of them "that's the stain where Z spilled the tomato sauce..." and IMHO a fresh start is a much better way to go forward.
Sending love and sympathy.
posted by The otter lady at 6:28 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
I agree with a lot of what's already been capably said and won't rehash it. I DO disagree with asking Z and X if they will be the ones to move -- they've thought of that, guarantee it. If that's not their plan and they don't volunteer it, they don't want to. Asking is just going to be another conflict episode.
I'm on team "blessing in disguise", at least at this point. Z is already not your BFF but appears to be willing to be polite and cordial enough to remain roommates. The previously-described Politely Uninvolved Roommate may not be your wildest dreams, but you could certainly do worse, and you already know they're *tolerable* with respect to not having loud parties, helping themselves to your stuff, all that. I recommend trying it out, after getting over the anger and accepting the loss of the friendship.
posted by ctmf at 6:33 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
I'm on team "blessing in disguise", at least at this point. Z is already not your BFF but appears to be willing to be polite and cordial enough to remain roommates. The previously-described Politely Uninvolved Roommate may not be your wildest dreams, but you could certainly do worse, and you already know they're *tolerable* with respect to not having loud parties, helping themselves to your stuff, all that. I recommend trying it out, after getting over the anger and accepting the loss of the friendship.
posted by ctmf at 6:33 PM on September 4 [2 favorites]
The jabs about leftism are weird, btw
You are using that style of rhetoric to describe your situation. It is a permanent and understandable temptation to those on the left to turn personal disputes, preferences, and dislikes into social-justice issues. Most people would rather think that they are Standing on a Principle than admit that some stuff just annoys them, or that they and their colleague are being semi-jerks at each other, or whatever. It's not really all that different from when Christians decide that Jesus is mad at their awful cousin who didn't wear the right thing to the rehearsal dinner. (Or Ray Dalio and everything that didn't please him in the moment becoming an official violation of the Bridgewater rulebook.)
Anyway, if you don't learn to recognize it when you're doing it (again, it's natural and understandable; humans are so very good at rationalizing), you can't learn to resist the temptation, which never takes anyone anywhere good.
posted by praemunire at 6:34 PM on September 4 [11 favorites]
You are using that style of rhetoric to describe your situation. It is a permanent and understandable temptation to those on the left to turn personal disputes, preferences, and dislikes into social-justice issues. Most people would rather think that they are Standing on a Principle than admit that some stuff just annoys them, or that they and their colleague are being semi-jerks at each other, or whatever. It's not really all that different from when Christians decide that Jesus is mad at their awful cousin who didn't wear the right thing to the rehearsal dinner. (Or Ray Dalio and everything that didn't please him in the moment becoming an official violation of the Bridgewater rulebook.)
Anyway, if you don't learn to recognize it when you're doing it (again, it's natural and understandable; humans are so very good at rationalizing), you can't learn to resist the temptation, which never takes anyone anywhere good.
posted by praemunire at 6:34 PM on September 4 [11 favorites]
I'm reading the original question (maybe projecting too much though) as, Z is comfortable with Politely Uninvolved Roommate, and you're just... too much. You want to be good friends. That leads to more and more keeping-at-arms-length, being frustrated you don't seem to be getting the hint, and eventually JFC get this person away from me. There's also some natural friction between a couple who presumably would prefer to be on their own together, and a "third wheel", no matter how good a friend.
It doesn't mean you're the bad person here, she should have used her words. But the practical problem now, is, can you do that, live as cordial co-worker, business and pleasantries only? AND, can she really be that and not passive-aggressive, make you miserable with plausible deniability trying to get you to move.
posted by ctmf at 6:56 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
It doesn't mean you're the bad person here, she should have used her words. But the practical problem now, is, can you do that, live as cordial co-worker, business and pleasantries only? AND, can she really be that and not passive-aggressive, make you miserable with plausible deniability trying to get you to move.
posted by ctmf at 6:56 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I am not sure why so many of the responders here are being so harsh to you, it feels like people are really combing over your post to look for little nuggets that they can use to come to the conclusion that you were the awful person in this scenario. It feels ironic to me that so many people are telling you not to be litigious in your approach when they are acting like some sort of highly paid prosecutory team with the singular mission of tearing you down. Maybe they have been the passive aggressive shit roomate at some point and this is activating something in them.
I'll echo what a bunch of people said-- this situation sounds really hurtful and not functional, I agree you just need to remove yourself from it in the most drama-free way as a fast as possible so you can start healing from it and not expect the other party to do anything for you. My heart goes out to you I think its a tough place to be.
posted by Res0ndf7 at 9:00 PM on September 4 [5 favorites]
I'll echo what a bunch of people said-- this situation sounds really hurtful and not functional, I agree you just need to remove yourself from it in the most drama-free way as a fast as possible so you can start healing from it and not expect the other party to do anything for you. My heart goes out to you I think its a tough place to be.
posted by Res0ndf7 at 9:00 PM on September 4 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
What matters now is that Z has clearly decided that she doesn't like you and doesn't want a friendly type of roommate relationship with you, but also doesn't want to move out. You're all on the lease and legally so you likely can all sit there in the apartment hating each other until you die. But I would say that convention would dictate that the person(s) who was there first has priority in staying if the household breaks up--it sounds like that's her. You can ask, if you like, but you're likely to get the responses of "I was here first" and "there are two of us and only one of you." (Anyone who suggests that there's a script with a high chance of accomplishing that goal is living in the Internet land of wishful thinking where scripts are magic spells.) Then you should plan to move. And live solo. And read Conflict is Not Abuse in some of your freed-up time.
(As for your first question, you don't need permission to be angry. Or anything else. I'd be mortified out of existence to learn that my roommate had been secretly resenting me for two years and I hadn't even noticed. I might join a convent or the French Foreign Legion or something to flee the sadness and shame. The framework you have around your feelings is hugely counterproductive, but that doesn't mean your feelings themselves are "wrong" or you're a bad person for having them. It's just that trying to turn them into "being harmed" rather than getting through the pain of feeling them and trying to learn from them will only hurt you more.)
posted by praemunire at 11:31 PM on September 3 [79 favorites]