Is there a way to point out that friend is grossly self centered?
September 2, 2024 9:55 AM Subscribe
Below is a long ass thing about another married couple friend of ours, but it boils down to this: if your friend never/rarely asks about you, what can be done?
Husband and I have been friends with another couple, let's call them Roger and Sandy, for about 10 years. I feel like the relationship was more balanced, but the last few years have become very one-sided. Husband thinks it's always been one-sided. I am thinking we are both right, but I am guessing I used to assert myself into the conversation. I am growing so tired of this unbalanced friendship. In all fairness, when I/we do push and share they sincerely do care but I am flabbergasted that they never would have asked. And this is proven, if we don't shove our way into the conversation and assert ourselves they will not inquire. Naturally we don't hang out with them nearly as much as we used to, maybe every other month and that feels like a lot.
I've been thinking about this more because I have a trip coming up with Sandy. Our kids are very very good friends and for a long time the kids (age 16) have wanted to do a special trip. Normally this would be something I would be excited for but now I am wondering how should I prepare? I don't want some friendship showdown on this trip and I also even wonder if people can change-so MeFi, what do you say? I hate confrontation but if you say it's time for a pow wow then fine. If you say it's time for slow fade, fine. Time for polite-neutral-whatever time, fine. In the times immediately afterwards our get-togethers I think there must be something I can say, not too rude-but a little pointed that might make them realize how beastly they are? When we go out Husband and I play off of each other and give prompts like we are in some terrible skit. It's just ridiculous.
On review, I am looking for advice of kind MeFis who have had similar experience and how I can gage my expectations on this. I swear I used to feel close to these guys and now I just don't even know what to do with them. They don't feel like friends at all.
I have other things I want to talk about but I worry it would cloud the replies and everyone will be like DTMFs but I want to keep it at this core issue because I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped. I seem to notice it more post Covid, but it could be me that's changed.
Husband and I have been friends with another couple, let's call them Roger and Sandy, for about 10 years. I feel like the relationship was more balanced, but the last few years have become very one-sided. Husband thinks it's always been one-sided. I am thinking we are both right, but I am guessing I used to assert myself into the conversation. I am growing so tired of this unbalanced friendship. In all fairness, when I/we do push and share they sincerely do care but I am flabbergasted that they never would have asked. And this is proven, if we don't shove our way into the conversation and assert ourselves they will not inquire. Naturally we don't hang out with them nearly as much as we used to, maybe every other month and that feels like a lot.
I've been thinking about this more because I have a trip coming up with Sandy. Our kids are very very good friends and for a long time the kids (age 16) have wanted to do a special trip. Normally this would be something I would be excited for but now I am wondering how should I prepare? I don't want some friendship showdown on this trip and I also even wonder if people can change-so MeFi, what do you say? I hate confrontation but if you say it's time for a pow wow then fine. If you say it's time for slow fade, fine. Time for polite-neutral-whatever time, fine. In the times immediately afterwards our get-togethers I think there must be something I can say, not too rude-but a little pointed that might make them realize how beastly they are? When we go out Husband and I play off of each other and give prompts like we are in some terrible skit. It's just ridiculous.
On review, I am looking for advice of kind MeFis who have had similar experience and how I can gage my expectations on this. I swear I used to feel close to these guys and now I just don't even know what to do with them. They don't feel like friends at all.
I have other things I want to talk about but I worry it would cloud the replies and everyone will be like DTMFs but I want to keep it at this core issue because I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped. I seem to notice it more post Covid, but it could be me that's changed.
I think this is personality-based or cultural. I have a few friends who never ask questions but are otherwise wonderful people and I've realized that they think it's rude or were never taught to do so -- and they really do want me to volunteer information. So I just started talking about myself generally, not in response to a question. I also realized I asked them more and more questions because they don't do so -- and then it was one-sided just because I was desperately trying to keep the conversation going.
So no idea what you should actually do, but you could try talking about yourself more and not waiting for a question. Asking questions really may just be something that they just don't know how to do or because of culture/personality struggle to do. Maybe that is not the friendship you want! But it doesn't mean, as you say above, they don't care or that the friendship is one-sided.
posted by caoimhe at 10:13 AM on September 2 [11 favorites]
So no idea what you should actually do, but you could try talking about yourself more and not waiting for a question. Asking questions really may just be something that they just don't know how to do or because of culture/personality struggle to do. Maybe that is not the friendship you want! But it doesn't mean, as you say above, they don't care or that the friendship is one-sided.
posted by caoimhe at 10:13 AM on September 2 [11 favorites]
Maybe the couple dynamic confuses them and they don't want to say the wrong thing unprompted "in public". Also the skits you and your husband perform would make me not want to ask. I know you want me to ask, but I don't want to ask.
posted by jello at 10:22 AM on September 2 [4 favorites]
posted by jello at 10:22 AM on September 2 [4 favorites]
Is there a way to point out that friend is grossly self centered?
I think there must be something I can say, not too rude-but a little pointed that might make them realize how beastly they are?
You're approaching this with a lot of judgment for what sounds like a difference in conversational style. I don't like to put people on the spot, so depending on the person and relationship, I often don't initiate questions. With my friends and myself, we generally like the chance to bring up stuff when we're ready to talk about it. There are some exceptions to this.
It sounds like when you do insert yourself into the conversation, they are interested in what you have to say.
So your options seem to be:
1) Talk directly to your friend - if you can approach this from a perspective of "difference in conversational style and lets try to meet in the middle." This shouldn't be a confrontation b/c I don't think either approach is inherently wrong.
2) Just accept that you need to push your way into conversations, and start doing that more.
3) If you're just done with this friendship (which it kind of sounds like you are), then just do the slow fade, or tune out during their conversations.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:34 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
I think there must be something I can say, not too rude-but a little pointed that might make them realize how beastly they are?
You're approaching this with a lot of judgment for what sounds like a difference in conversational style. I don't like to put people on the spot, so depending on the person and relationship, I often don't initiate questions. With my friends and myself, we generally like the chance to bring up stuff when we're ready to talk about it. There are some exceptions to this.
It sounds like when you do insert yourself into the conversation, they are interested in what you have to say.
So your options seem to be:
1) Talk directly to your friend - if you can approach this from a perspective of "difference in conversational style and lets try to meet in the middle." This shouldn't be a confrontation b/c I don't think either approach is inherently wrong.
2) Just accept that you need to push your way into conversations, and start doing that more.
3) If you're just done with this friendship (which it kind of sounds like you are), then just do the slow fade, or tune out during their conversations.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:34 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
I'm not much of a question asker, and I also hate conversations where I'm being asked questions. It feels like I'm being interrogated.
For example, a thoroughly benign "how was your weekend?" feels intrusive, insincere, and perfunctory to me. But if you just go ahead and tell me about your kid's tae kwon do meet, I will happily share that I'm binge watching Homicide. Similarly, if I share anything about myself, that is my invitation for you to share as well.
I realize this conversational style requires some nuance and understanding, and if I notice someone being particularly quiet I'll try to prompt them. But really, Q&A style conversations just feel rude to me and I try to avoid them. I don't like to presume what other people find interesting to share about themselves, so I'd much rather folks just start talking!
posted by phunniemee at 10:51 AM on September 2 [23 favorites]
For example, a thoroughly benign "how was your weekend?" feels intrusive, insincere, and perfunctory to me. But if you just go ahead and tell me about your kid's tae kwon do meet, I will happily share that I'm binge watching Homicide. Similarly, if I share anything about myself, that is my invitation for you to share as well.
I realize this conversational style requires some nuance and understanding, and if I notice someone being particularly quiet I'll try to prompt them. But really, Q&A style conversations just feel rude to me and I try to avoid them. I don't like to presume what other people find interesting to share about themselves, so I'd much rather folks just start talking!
posted by phunniemee at 10:51 AM on September 2 [23 favorites]
Unfortunately, you've already decided that they're grossly self-centered and beastly. This even though you've found that when you adapt to their style, they sincerely do care. My native conversational style is more like theirs, and back when you first noticed this, I would have been downright psyched to have a curious conversation about our conversational style differences and how we could each adapt to accommodate one another and build a stronger friendship. If you approached the topic now, when you've had it up to here and you know I'm wrong and bad, I don't see any good coming of that.
If after getting replies here, you can claw yourself back from judgment and animosity to friendly curiosity, then the conversation could go something like this: "I've noticed a conversational style difference between us that I'm sorry to admit I've been allowing to lessen our friendship, because I hadn't realized that's all that it was. Are you up for talking about it?" If they are, then "Hubby and I tend to ask questions about how you're doing, and we wait to volunteer stuff about us until we're asked. I've noticed that you two are the opposite -- you freely share stuff without us asking, and wait for us to do the same rather than asking us. At first, we even thought that meant you didn't want to know anything about us! I know, crazy, right? But we realized that of course you do -- you're always sincerely interested when we do manage to push past our own style and share something unasked. So, we promise to keep doing that. And, if you're up for adapting your own style, if you ask us questions whenever we're catching up together, that's what feels really good and caring to us. What do you think?"
posted by daisyace at 10:52 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
If after getting replies here, you can claw yourself back from judgment and animosity to friendly curiosity, then the conversation could go something like this: "I've noticed a conversational style difference between us that I'm sorry to admit I've been allowing to lessen our friendship, because I hadn't realized that's all that it was. Are you up for talking about it?" If they are, then "Hubby and I tend to ask questions about how you're doing, and we wait to volunteer stuff about us until we're asked. I've noticed that you two are the opposite -- you freely share stuff without us asking, and wait for us to do the same rather than asking us. At first, we even thought that meant you didn't want to know anything about us! I know, crazy, right? But we realized that of course you do -- you're always sincerely interested when we do manage to push past our own style and share something unasked. So, we promise to keep doing that. And, if you're up for adapting your own style, if you ask us questions whenever we're catching up together, that's what feels really good and caring to us. What do you think?"
posted by daisyace at 10:52 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
Actually, on thinking about it more after posting, I don't think you should have that conversation now. You have some making up to do first for having assumed you were right and they were wrong, and having let it damage the friendship. So if you take to heart that you've been making unkind assumptions and you want to fix that, first, I'd just adapt to their style without saying anything. After you've rebuilt your connection on these terms in your own minds, if you still want to bring it up, that's when you could let them know that you'd feel really cared for if they sometimes adapted to your style by asking you questions.
posted by daisyace at 11:00 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
posted by daisyace at 11:00 AM on September 2 [8 favorites]
I had a friend like this. She never initiated plans, showed little interest in my life. One day I stopped making an effort to get in touch. Here I am today, more than a decade later and doing just fine without her in my life.
If the kids want to stay friends, by all means support them, but find something they can do together without parents involved so you don't have to make an effort you're no longer willing to make.
posted by brookeb at 11:01 AM on September 2 [3 favorites]
If the kids want to stay friends, by all means support them, but find something they can do together without parents involved so you don't have to make an effort you're no longer willing to make.
posted by brookeb at 11:01 AM on September 2 [3 favorites]
Yeah, there are people who were taught it's polite to remember things about others' lives and check in about it, and there are people who were taught it's not polite to "pry." And, this is a larger group, so asking "how's your job?" when it could turn into "I got laid off and we don't know how we'll pay for Sam's college now" is even more fraught. In those contexts, what I see people doing is (a) just enjoying the present moment together, and (b) just sharing stories about themselves. The more all-ages entertaining and the more funny or interesting, the better. Can you just interject your stories into the conversation? If you had said that they change the subject away from you, then yeah, maybe this relationship doesn't have the possibility of greater depth. It doesn't mean that you can't enjoy one another at the level of the present moment, necessarily, especially if there are conversational topics -- books, movies, that bird over there -- that you can still enjoy.
posted by slidell at 11:26 AM on September 2 [5 favorites]
posted by slidell at 11:26 AM on September 2 [5 favorites]
Think about how you want this trip to go. Do you want to spend it with the adult? Can you hang with your kid and their kid?
What if you (the adults) took turns being responsible for the kids and when it's not your time to be the adult on tap you do stuff by yourself? If the kids are doing activities and the assumption is that the adults are also doing things together, can you reset that? "Oh, while the kids are doing board games/by the pool/watching movies/playing soccer I'll just pop out to the grocery store. What shall we do for dinner?" "Oh, there's a used bookstore I've been meaning to check out in this town. I know you wanted to go clothes shopping, shall I meet you back here in a couple of hours?"
Then when you're home take a break from them, and decide if it's worth saying anything ever.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:40 AM on September 2 [1 favorite]
What if you (the adults) took turns being responsible for the kids and when it's not your time to be the adult on tap you do stuff by yourself? If the kids are doing activities and the assumption is that the adults are also doing things together, can you reset that? "Oh, while the kids are doing board games/by the pool/watching movies/playing soccer I'll just pop out to the grocery store. What shall we do for dinner?" "Oh, there's a used bookstore I've been meaning to check out in this town. I know you wanted to go clothes shopping, shall I meet you back here in a couple of hours?"
Then when you're home take a break from them, and decide if it's worth saying anything ever.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:40 AM on September 2 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the trip is a big stressor right now, and is something you're doing at least partly for the kids, so I think right now the mission is just get through the trip maintaining the status quo. It doesn't sound like anything has changed lately that requires you address this right now.
Get through the trip, keeping things light and friendly and not feeling the need to do couple friend things at all times, and then re-assess. If you no longer feel close it's fine just to not be close. Unless there's a lot you're leaving out here, it sounds like this is a friendship style mismatch but not necessarily anything worse than that. You can just pull back to whatever level of acquaintanceship feels better to you.
posted by Stacey at 11:46 AM on September 2
Get through the trip, keeping things light and friendly and not feeling the need to do couple friend things at all times, and then re-assess. If you no longer feel close it's fine just to not be close. Unless there's a lot you're leaving out here, it sounds like this is a friendship style mismatch but not necessarily anything worse than that. You can just pull back to whatever level of acquaintanceship feels better to you.
posted by Stacey at 11:46 AM on September 2
when we do push and share, they sincerely do care
This is a very valuable trait and you should not take it for granted. Not everyone out there sincerely cares! Many of the people who ask all the right etiquette questions actually don't give a shit about others and wouldn't show up for you or help you in a time of need. If these friends have proven that they will show up for you, then they definitely deserve more grace!
Our kids are very very good friends
Another really important point, don't blow this up! Your kid is 16, on the cusp of where most kids start experimenting with substances and sex. Teens are navigating bullying and mood swings and eating disorders and identity and a flood of toxic weird messaging they find online. All of this while their hormones force them to push their own parents away as hard as they ever will. It's a delicate time, and having backup can make a huge difference. You can create a safe social village that can really help protect your kid from seeking false closeness in weird places.
In this other family, it appears that you have a close friend for your kid, who you know well and seem to like? And whose parents are reasonable and trustworthy. And your kid actually WANTS to have wholesome 2-family hangouts together? That is the absolute best possible situation for a teen! In your shoes, I'd work very hard to strengthen that bond, nurture a stable friendship with this other kid, and keep a close relationship with the parents. What a gift to have two more trusted adults who care about your kid and who your kid can choose to talk to, especially if they don't feel ready to share something with you for whatever reason.
These people sound fine and actually quite nice and from what you describe, "one sided" doesn't seem to be quite the right descriptor. I would usually expect people to use that phrase meaning that they mooch resources. Do they help pay for things? Do they help you with things like advice or loaning you objects? If so, then I wouldn't say one-sided.
They probably just expect you to be more forthcoming and volunteer info about yourself if you want to share, and maybe they feel it's nosey to ask too many personal questions. Or maybe they're neurodivergent and just affectionately info-dumping or not reading your social cues super well that you'd like to be asked more personal questions. I know that can be a bit annoying, but if it's their worst trait, count yourself lucky and just do the work to re-shape the conversations!
To be honest, in this question, you and your husband are coming off much worse than them - your reactions seem kinda mean and judgey, and it seems weird to be so easily offended by conversational protocols that you'll be disloyal to longstanding friends who've proven themselves to care about you.
Maybe you could approach the next hangout with a goal to loosen up and release the grip on protocol expectations. Do some introspection to figure out what you want a conversation to feel like, and then YOU can proactively contribute (nicely!) to creating those kinds of conversations.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:54 AM on September 2 [19 favorites]
This is a very valuable trait and you should not take it for granted. Not everyone out there sincerely cares! Many of the people who ask all the right etiquette questions actually don't give a shit about others and wouldn't show up for you or help you in a time of need. If these friends have proven that they will show up for you, then they definitely deserve more grace!
Our kids are very very good friends
Another really important point, don't blow this up! Your kid is 16, on the cusp of where most kids start experimenting with substances and sex. Teens are navigating bullying and mood swings and eating disorders and identity and a flood of toxic weird messaging they find online. All of this while their hormones force them to push their own parents away as hard as they ever will. It's a delicate time, and having backup can make a huge difference. You can create a safe social village that can really help protect your kid from seeking false closeness in weird places.
In this other family, it appears that you have a close friend for your kid, who you know well and seem to like? And whose parents are reasonable and trustworthy. And your kid actually WANTS to have wholesome 2-family hangouts together? That is the absolute best possible situation for a teen! In your shoes, I'd work very hard to strengthen that bond, nurture a stable friendship with this other kid, and keep a close relationship with the parents. What a gift to have two more trusted adults who care about your kid and who your kid can choose to talk to, especially if they don't feel ready to share something with you for whatever reason.
These people sound fine and actually quite nice and from what you describe, "one sided" doesn't seem to be quite the right descriptor. I would usually expect people to use that phrase meaning that they mooch resources. Do they help pay for things? Do they help you with things like advice or loaning you objects? If so, then I wouldn't say one-sided.
They probably just expect you to be more forthcoming and volunteer info about yourself if you want to share, and maybe they feel it's nosey to ask too many personal questions. Or maybe they're neurodivergent and just affectionately info-dumping or not reading your social cues super well that you'd like to be asked more personal questions. I know that can be a bit annoying, but if it's their worst trait, count yourself lucky and just do the work to re-shape the conversations!
To be honest, in this question, you and your husband are coming off much worse than them - your reactions seem kinda mean and judgey, and it seems weird to be so easily offended by conversational protocols that you'll be disloyal to longstanding friends who've proven themselves to care about you.
Maybe you could approach the next hangout with a goal to loosen up and release the grip on protocol expectations. Do some introspection to figure out what you want a conversation to feel like, and then YOU can proactively contribute (nicely!) to creating those kinds of conversations.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:54 AM on September 2 [19 favorites]
Regardless of why they are this way, it clearly is a dynamic that doesn't work for you and that's fine - you don't have to be friends with these people.
But because your kids are close and you're going on a trip together, it seems like it's in everyone's best interest to be civil to each other. I'd avoid any confrontation of any sort. You don't say what the trip is, but I'd try to make sure it includes activities that don't require a lot of conversation (whether going to an art museum or lazing on a beach) - so yes, "polite-neutral-whatever time" as you put it. Since it doesn't sound like you enjoy spending time with them, I'd stop bothering hanging out, but if invited I'd probably still see them a handful of times per year, at least until your kid leaves home.
posted by coffeecat at 11:55 AM on September 2 [1 favorite]
But because your kids are close and you're going on a trip together, it seems like it's in everyone's best interest to be civil to each other. I'd avoid any confrontation of any sort. You don't say what the trip is, but I'd try to make sure it includes activities that don't require a lot of conversation (whether going to an art museum or lazing on a beach) - so yes, "polite-neutral-whatever time" as you put it. Since it doesn't sound like you enjoy spending time with them, I'd stop bothering hanging out, but if invited I'd probably still see them a handful of times per year, at least until your kid leaves home.
posted by coffeecat at 11:55 AM on September 2 [1 favorite]
Many of the people who ask all the right etiquette questions actually don't give a shit about others and wouldn't show up for you or help you in a time of need
I would favourite this one million times if I could. As a general directive wrt human relationships it's really hard to beat.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 11:57 AM on September 2 [12 favorites]
I would favourite this one million times if I could. As a general directive wrt human relationships it's really hard to beat.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 11:57 AM on September 2 [12 favorites]
nthing that it's probably a difference in conversational style. I hate asking questions and being asked questions as a general rule. If there's a conversational flow I'm an open book and interested in what you have to say, but I've found that I lose interest quickly when it's just mutual interrogation. ESPECIALLY when I've known the people for a while. 10 years and still at that awkward introductory phase? I couldn't take it.
posted by mikesch at 12:06 PM on September 2 [4 favorites]
posted by mikesch at 12:06 PM on September 2 [4 favorites]
Just another possible way to frame this: if Sandy does have ADHD (I dunno her so this is just a random guess, but monologuing, overlooking etiquette rules, and missing social cues to stop speaking are definitely traits that turn up with ADHD), note that ADHD tends to ramp up in peri/menopause, which might align with your observation that it's changed in recent years. If so, it's not forever, and if she does have ADHD and at some point does something about it, as so many women are these days, that trait will probably calm down again.
Anyway, no matter the cause, you could try making an effort to find it endearing. "Our lovely pal Sandy talks a mile a minute and she'd give you the shoes off her feet if you said you liked them!"
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:07 PM on September 2
Anyway, no matter the cause, you could try making an effort to find it endearing. "Our lovely pal Sandy talks a mile a minute and she'd give you the shoes off her feet if you said you liked them!"
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:07 PM on September 2
I agree that it really doesn't sound at all like they're horrible people or even "grossly" self-centered, unless there's a lot more you're leaving out.
But even if there is - there are two friendships here, yours and your kids. And I would specifically avoid creating drama, specifically for the sake of not creating drama for your kids. So no, no big "you're grossly self-centered" talk. Pull away mildly after this trip if you want. Give a gentle "hey, ask me how I'm doing" poke if you want. Try hanging out one on one once in a while instead of only in couples mode, if you want. Or don't. But no big lecture about how they're bad, no big passive-aggressive campaigns, no big breakups.
I want to keep it at this core issue because I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped
Regarding people who aren't your kids' close friends' parents: It's hard to say without knowing more about the people and interactions involved but if it's a formerly good friend who's doing this, I would go the gentle poke route or the gently describing the action you'd like them to take route and see how they respond. I don't think big lectures about "you're like this" or "you keep doing this" almost ever work well - nobody likes to hear that their friend doesn't like something about them, and even if they're unusually mature and don't get defensive it's still very likely to create distance. It's usually better to just appreciate the good things people are able to give you and look for other people who can give you what they can't.
posted by trig at 12:07 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
But even if there is - there are two friendships here, yours and your kids. And I would specifically avoid creating drama, specifically for the sake of not creating drama for your kids. So no, no big "you're grossly self-centered" talk. Pull away mildly after this trip if you want. Give a gentle "hey, ask me how I'm doing" poke if you want. Try hanging out one on one once in a while instead of only in couples mode, if you want. Or don't. But no big lecture about how they're bad, no big passive-aggressive campaigns, no big breakups.
I want to keep it at this core issue because I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped
Regarding people who aren't your kids' close friends' parents: It's hard to say without knowing more about the people and interactions involved but if it's a formerly good friend who's doing this, I would go the gentle poke route or the gently describing the action you'd like them to take route and see how they respond. I don't think big lectures about "you're like this" or "you keep doing this" almost ever work well - nobody likes to hear that their friend doesn't like something about them, and even if they're unusually mature and don't get defensive it's still very likely to create distance. It's usually better to just appreciate the good things people are able to give you and look for other people who can give you what they can't.
posted by trig at 12:07 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
I would just let it play out.
Until you can tell how it’s affecting your kids. If she pays attention only to her own kids, disregards and treats yours like casual interlopers, you might want to have a private talk with yours to tell them that’s how she’s been with you for years now, and not to feel hurt and neglected.
posted by jamjam at 12:15 PM on September 2
Until you can tell how it’s affecting your kids. If she pays attention only to her own kids, disregards and treats yours like casual interlopers, you might want to have a private talk with yours to tell them that’s how she’s been with you for years now, and not to feel hurt and neglected.
posted by jamjam at 12:15 PM on September 2
Consider that they could reasonably say the relationship is one-sided in the other direction: they’re the ones keeping the relationship alive— they generously volunteer and share and keep conversations afloat as a bid for connection, and you don’t!
Also consider that after 10 years, suddenly deciding you need the “engraved invitation” treatment to participate is confusing. You changed the rules. Which is fine, you get to decide it doesn’t work for you anymore; you get to change your mind. That doesn’t make them objectively “beastly” though. It means you changed the rules and didn’t tell them and now you’re mad at them for not following the new rules.
If you’re asking whether you should have a confrontation with them now (or on the trip?) frankly that sounds selfish and immature on your part. Take away all your justifications: you’d be deliberately ruining a trip the kids are looking forward to. Are you sure your newfound “ick” doesn’t boil down to an attempt to sabotage the trip for some reason?
Even being blank and neutral to them is not as magnanimous as you’re hoping. That would come across as pouting and punishing. Can you really not act normal and enjoy a special trip? If you’re truly incapable then maybe opt out and your spouse and kid can go?
You say “I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped.” I wonder what you mean here. You have decided you don’t like a friend or a relationship so much anymore (cool) and held it against that person (uncool)?
posted by kapers at 12:24 PM on September 2 [4 favorites]
Also consider that after 10 years, suddenly deciding you need the “engraved invitation” treatment to participate is confusing. You changed the rules. Which is fine, you get to decide it doesn’t work for you anymore; you get to change your mind. That doesn’t make them objectively “beastly” though. It means you changed the rules and didn’t tell them and now you’re mad at them for not following the new rules.
If you’re asking whether you should have a confrontation with them now (or on the trip?) frankly that sounds selfish and immature on your part. Take away all your justifications: you’d be deliberately ruining a trip the kids are looking forward to. Are you sure your newfound “ick” doesn’t boil down to an attempt to sabotage the trip for some reason?
Even being blank and neutral to them is not as magnanimous as you’re hoping. That would come across as pouting and punishing. Can you really not act normal and enjoy a special trip? If you’re truly incapable then maybe opt out and your spouse and kid can go?
You say “I have experienced it with other friends and it leaves me completely stumped.” I wonder what you mean here. You have decided you don’t like a friend or a relationship so much anymore (cool) and held it against that person (uncool)?
posted by kapers at 12:24 PM on September 2 [4 favorites]
Also, apologies for being pedantic, but I think you’re using the term pow wow incorrectly; you may want to find a new term.
posted by kapers at 12:29 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
posted by kapers at 12:29 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
After using the terms "grossly self-centered" and "beastly" about these people, I won't bother, but someone could easily rewrite your post about the secretive, unforthcoming, clearly-don't-trust-us couple that we wouldn't otherwise socialize much with because there's nothing to talk about, but the kids get along well and possibly their kids will need someone to stand up for them if the parents end up on the evening news for whatever secrets they're keeping.
Is everyone you don't share a communication style with a monster? I ask because there's just like no acknowledgement of all the gray areas here. Do you have any friends with whom you share interrogation-style interactions? If so does it not get exhausting having to come up with new questions if nobody speaks unless asked something directly?
Some people are have-to-butt-in types, and if they didn't care when you did then this would be a different question. Even though I DID grow up in an "everyone speaks in turn" family I've always been aware of "shout to be heard" families and find them hard to keep up with but hardly rude or mean, and as a neurodivergent person I am highly aware of the "excitedly tell a story in order to relate/sometimes rush to say my whole bit because I'm caught up in my excitement" style.
If you can't approach these people this time with some kind of experimental open mind to see if maybe they're not as terrible as you think, then the appropriate angle would be to tolerate it for the sake of the kids and then maybe soon they'll be old enough to socialize with this other family without you?
posted by Lyn Never at 12:42 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
Is everyone you don't share a communication style with a monster? I ask because there's just like no acknowledgement of all the gray areas here. Do you have any friends with whom you share interrogation-style interactions? If so does it not get exhausting having to come up with new questions if nobody speaks unless asked something directly?
Some people are have-to-butt-in types, and if they didn't care when you did then this would be a different question. Even though I DID grow up in an "everyone speaks in turn" family I've always been aware of "shout to be heard" families and find them hard to keep up with but hardly rude or mean, and as a neurodivergent person I am highly aware of the "excitedly tell a story in order to relate/sometimes rush to say my whole bit because I'm caught up in my excitement" style.
If you can't approach these people this time with some kind of experimental open mind to see if maybe they're not as terrible as you think, then the appropriate angle would be to tolerate it for the sake of the kids and then maybe soon they'll be old enough to socialize with this other family without you?
posted by Lyn Never at 12:42 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
I concur with others that this behavior can be explained by differences in conversational style. Without additional information, I would hesitate to label the couple as self centered.
Different group dynamics can result in different levels of effort to keep the conversational volley going. And keeping this volley going can be exhausting. It is understandable for someone to feel resentful for sharing a disproportionate burden.
However, I think you are setting yourself up for failure by expecting someone else to change. All you can control is you (and how you manage your own expectations). Not every friend is going to meet all of your friendship needs at all times. If you think this friendship long term needs to fade to acquaintance or send annual holiday cards to status that’s legit.
But first, you need to make this upcoming trip the best experience it can be. It may not be everything you hoped for. Perhaps you will need to settle for an ok experience for you, but a great experience for your kid. Perhaps you can reframe this event as one last hurrah for the younger generation. Propose some agenda items that are’t conversation focused. Bring board or other games to play together. Prepare some talking points about remember when we/the kids. Remember you don’t have to do everything together. Ask kiddo about his plans and then build off them. Feel free to excuse yourself for an early evening.
posted by oceano at 1:44 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
Different group dynamics can result in different levels of effort to keep the conversational volley going. And keeping this volley going can be exhausting. It is understandable for someone to feel resentful for sharing a disproportionate burden.
However, I think you are setting yourself up for failure by expecting someone else to change. All you can control is you (and how you manage your own expectations). Not every friend is going to meet all of your friendship needs at all times. If you think this friendship long term needs to fade to acquaintance or send annual holiday cards to status that’s legit.
But first, you need to make this upcoming trip the best experience it can be. It may not be everything you hoped for. Perhaps you will need to settle for an ok experience for you, but a great experience for your kid. Perhaps you can reframe this event as one last hurrah for the younger generation. Propose some agenda items that are’t conversation focused. Bring board or other games to play together. Prepare some talking points about remember when we/the kids. Remember you don’t have to do everything together. Ask kiddo about his plans and then build off them. Feel free to excuse yourself for an early evening.
posted by oceano at 1:44 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
I have to say, I'm pretty surprised at the feedback you're getting in these comments. Yes, different conversational styles exist, but it strikes me as entirely reasonable that you'd want friends to demonstrate proactive interest in you and that you would feel put off by this couple taking up all the social airspace when you're together. It's hard to tell how egregious it is from what you've written but I think there's a little too much focus on the offense you've taken and not enough credit given to the fact that there are in fact people in the world who monopolize social situations in unpleasant ways, and there's no inherent virtue to it that needs to be defended quite so vigorously.
Whether we're calling it a conversational style or a general lack of ability to read the room and attune to the people in it, I don't think it's likely to change at this point in your lives (could some of the increased imbalance in recent years be the thing where some people lean into certain personality traits more strongly as they age?). But, two suggestions: a direct ask, and radical acceptance. A direct ask can literally be, and has been for me, "Hey, can I ask you a favor? Will you try to ask me things about how I am and what's going on with me?" If you need to elaborate, you can say something about how that makes you feel like people care, but keep it focused on you. No airing of grievances, no big state-of-the-friendship talk.
Also no guarantee as to how that will be received or acted upon, which is where the radical acceptance comes in. This is who your friends are. If you incorporate some of the comments here in order to change your interpretation of their behavior, can you enjoy the times you have with them? If so, great; do it and make sure you're also scheduling time with other friends who approach relationships in a way that feels genuinely good to you. If not, okay. You can grin and bear it for your trip and however often you need to in order to keep things smooth for your kid. Either way, this largely is what it is and it's okay if that doesn't really work for you.
(With respect to your aside: in one sense I appreciate the invitation to see a lack of question-asking as benign and not indicative of lack of interest, but on the other I am repeatedly shocked at how many people I meet in social situations who can go through entire conversations perfectly happy to talk and answer questions about themselves but never asking a single question back, and I really do think there's more to that than just cultural norms.)
posted by wormtales at 1:58 PM on September 2 [10 favorites]
Whether we're calling it a conversational style or a general lack of ability to read the room and attune to the people in it, I don't think it's likely to change at this point in your lives (could some of the increased imbalance in recent years be the thing where some people lean into certain personality traits more strongly as they age?). But, two suggestions: a direct ask, and radical acceptance. A direct ask can literally be, and has been for me, "Hey, can I ask you a favor? Will you try to ask me things about how I am and what's going on with me?" If you need to elaborate, you can say something about how that makes you feel like people care, but keep it focused on you. No airing of grievances, no big state-of-the-friendship talk.
Also no guarantee as to how that will be received or acted upon, which is where the radical acceptance comes in. This is who your friends are. If you incorporate some of the comments here in order to change your interpretation of their behavior, can you enjoy the times you have with them? If so, great; do it and make sure you're also scheduling time with other friends who approach relationships in a way that feels genuinely good to you. If not, okay. You can grin and bear it for your trip and however often you need to in order to keep things smooth for your kid. Either way, this largely is what it is and it's okay if that doesn't really work for you.
(With respect to your aside: in one sense I appreciate the invitation to see a lack of question-asking as benign and not indicative of lack of interest, but on the other I am repeatedly shocked at how many people I meet in social situations who can go through entire conversations perfectly happy to talk and answer questions about themselves but never asking a single question back, and I really do think there's more to that than just cultural norms.)
posted by wormtales at 1:58 PM on September 2 [10 favorites]
I have friends like this--also people who came into my life situationally (kid's friends' parents). I find them very easy to be around, because I don't feel close to them. Like, they're perfectly lovely conversationalists and have interesting jobs and lives, so I go into those interactions expecting to hear wacky stories about her grandmother and his childhood in Europe and we talk about things we have in common (teachers, restaurants, TV shows) and I don't expect to talk about myself.
Like, it's not the social interaction I would choose for my own fun, but it's fine for being in the same group. And actually, sometimes when I'm really depressed, having someone who will just sit with me and tell me vaguely interesting stories while I put in no social effort is a benefit.
posted by gideonfrog at 2:24 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
Like, it's not the social interaction I would choose for my own fun, but it's fine for being in the same group. And actually, sometimes when I'm really depressed, having someone who will just sit with me and tell me vaguely interesting stories while I put in no social effort is a benefit.
posted by gideonfrog at 2:24 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: oh boy! My fault for not giving any specifics and I have to say I find all of this very enlightening that there are so many people here that are ok with hanging with friends who monopolize the conversation and show little interest in other people. I am a social person, and actually these people are quite social too with no neuro issues (thanks for checking!).
I can see what I wrote comes off a certain way and I don't have time to debate each and every one of you, but I love you all.
I am most happy with conversations that go back and forth. I don't interrogate anyone nor do I expect to be interrogated. I don't keep score. Good friends sometimes have to dump and that is OK. What I was trying to express is people who consistently dominate the conversation and don't seem to even think to ask about the person sitting across the table. This for me is a pretty big offense. I have learned today that I am maybe too uptight? I just really was looking for some guidance. A few of you gave me the benefit of the doubt. A few of you went to a place I am not even sure I understand! But it's all good-I did poll the internet. Honestly, this was kind of good-hearing so many people be so chill about this makes me think it's just me and I need to move on. For the sake of the kids I will carry on, no worries. I just thought surely there has to be a way for people who only talk about themselves 24/7 to make them have some bit self awareness. Or not, lol.
And for clarity the skit comment was we have gone to things like 'Wife has started a new job this week, right Wife?" and then they realize for a moment that there are other people at the table who have lives happening. I see a flash of awareness pass in their eyes and it passes. Speaking of jobs, another example that just came to mind- a few years ago I started another job and that is as far as I got was that statement. Sandy talked for 30 straight about her going back to work/not going back to work and on and on. Not one question about what I did, did I like it, where I worked-nothing. And for clarity I almost always initiate going out. Oh gosh, so much of what has been guessed/assumed is so off base. I am sure I wrote my ask all wrong. But good on those who didn't assume I was a total asshat. LOVES.
posted by 58 at 3:03 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
I can see what I wrote comes off a certain way and I don't have time to debate each and every one of you, but I love you all.
I am most happy with conversations that go back and forth. I don't interrogate anyone nor do I expect to be interrogated. I don't keep score. Good friends sometimes have to dump and that is OK. What I was trying to express is people who consistently dominate the conversation and don't seem to even think to ask about the person sitting across the table. This for me is a pretty big offense. I have learned today that I am maybe too uptight? I just really was looking for some guidance. A few of you gave me the benefit of the doubt. A few of you went to a place I am not even sure I understand! But it's all good-I did poll the internet. Honestly, this was kind of good-hearing so many people be so chill about this makes me think it's just me and I need to move on. For the sake of the kids I will carry on, no worries. I just thought surely there has to be a way for people who only talk about themselves 24/7 to make them have some bit self awareness. Or not, lol.
And for clarity the skit comment was we have gone to things like 'Wife has started a new job this week, right Wife?" and then they realize for a moment that there are other people at the table who have lives happening. I see a flash of awareness pass in their eyes and it passes. Speaking of jobs, another example that just came to mind- a few years ago I started another job and that is as far as I got was that statement. Sandy talked for 30 straight about her going back to work/not going back to work and on and on. Not one question about what I did, did I like it, where I worked-nothing. And for clarity I almost always initiate going out. Oh gosh, so much of what has been guessed/assumed is so off base. I am sure I wrote my ask all wrong. But good on those who didn't assume I was a total asshat. LOVES.
posted by 58 at 3:03 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
Sandy talked for 30 straight about her going back to work/not going back to work and on and on. Not one question about what I did, did I like it, where I worked-nothing.
Oh yeah, from your initial question it seemed like you were complaining that they weren't inquisitive, not that they dominated the conversation. I'd drop them like a bad habit. I still think back to the time a guy I sort of knew went on multiple 40 minute monologues about minor things at a party, and a raconteur he most certainly was not. And this wasn't the first time. I got up mid conversation, walked away and never talked to him again.
Not really feasible in your situation, but I get it.
posted by mikesch at 3:15 PM on September 2
Oh yeah, from your initial question it seemed like you were complaining that they weren't inquisitive, not that they dominated the conversation. I'd drop them like a bad habit. I still think back to the time a guy I sort of knew went on multiple 40 minute monologues about minor things at a party, and a raconteur he most certainly was not. And this wasn't the first time. I got up mid conversation, walked away and never talked to him again.
Not really feasible in your situation, but I get it.
posted by mikesch at 3:15 PM on September 2
Re the response you got, I think you used certain words that triggered people (“beastly”, “self-centred”). But you know what, we all have our off days and we all need to vent sometimes. I’d probably get admonished if I posted some of my complaints here too!
I have friends like Roger and Sandy. I can’t be bothered adapting, nor do I feel it’s their job to adapt to me. I suspect we end up designating each other as outer-tier friends, and catch up once every few months and for specific activities. That might be a good, low-effort solution for you.
The tricky thing for you is that you may feel this is a “loss” — you’re going from close friends to realising you’re not actually that well-matched. I think it’s fine and human to feel angry and disappointed about it, as long as you don’t vocalise it. We really don’t know what they think. From their perspective, it may come as a surprise and they may have thought you were happy with the status quo. Or if you’re initiating everything, they may breathe a sigh of relief and think they can relax a bit too! Who knows.
It’s pretty common for kids to stay friends and their parents to drift (and vice versa). You’re not a bad person if that happens.
posted by primavera_f at 3:21 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
I have friends like Roger and Sandy. I can’t be bothered adapting, nor do I feel it’s their job to adapt to me. I suspect we end up designating each other as outer-tier friends, and catch up once every few months and for specific activities. That might be a good, low-effort solution for you.
The tricky thing for you is that you may feel this is a “loss” — you’re going from close friends to realising you’re not actually that well-matched. I think it’s fine and human to feel angry and disappointed about it, as long as you don’t vocalise it. We really don’t know what they think. From their perspective, it may come as a surprise and they may have thought you were happy with the status quo. Or if you’re initiating everything, they may breathe a sigh of relief and think they can relax a bit too! Who knows.
It’s pretty common for kids to stay friends and their parents to drift (and vice versa). You’re not a bad person if that happens.
posted by primavera_f at 3:21 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
I didn't assume you're a total asshat (and don't think most comments here did). I just didn't see any reason to assume these people are total asshats either.
actually these people are quite social too with no neuro issues
... that you (or they?) know of. (Not saying this to criticize you, and not that a diagnosis makes annoying behavior less annoying.)
Anyway, I still think what I thought before: don't blow things up, and you can't tell people they're self-centered, it won't work and you'll be blowing things up. Either decide to focus on their good points or do a slow fade (taking kids very much into account) or both.
If you were close friends and genuinely seemed to like them and there were no kids involved I might lean towards having a very very gentle conversation, but I don't think that's a realistic option here.
posted by trig at 3:32 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
actually these people are quite social too with no neuro issues
... that you (or they?) know of. (Not saying this to criticize you, and not that a diagnosis makes annoying behavior less annoying.)
Anyway, I still think what I thought before: don't blow things up, and you can't tell people they're self-centered, it won't work and you'll be blowing things up. Either decide to focus on their good points or do a slow fade (taking kids very much into account) or both.
If you were close friends and genuinely seemed to like them and there were no kids involved I might lean towards having a very very gentle conversation, but I don't think that's a realistic option here.
posted by trig at 3:32 PM on September 2 [2 favorites]
Like wormtales I was super surprised by the pushback you got here. I have had friendships sour on this kind of thing; one in particular settled into a pattern of me only being able to hold the conversation together by asking questions about her, but I cared about her a lot, so I let it stay there for years, figuring this is just the cost of doing business (like some above have advised). Eventually, though, when some acute stressor happened, it was like the love I’d felt for her had been eaten away by termites — too many years of this meant I just could not extend to her the good faith you need to have in a friend. I’d urge you not to let things get to that point, however you proceed. I could say more but I think I’ll leave it here.
posted by eirias at 5:02 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:02 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
Don't have a "friendship showdown" on this trip. Let the kids make good memories, there's plenty of time later to dump these people if that's what you want.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:23 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 6:23 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
In my experience there is no benefit to confronting people over this kind of issue. If you do not enjoy these meetings, then you absolutely should try to minimize them and do a slow tapering off of the friendship.
However, you might find the works of Deborah Tannen on conversational styles, such as That's Not What I meant to be helpful with these kinds of issues.
posted by statusquoante at 6:26 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
However, you might find the works of Deborah Tannen on conversational styles, such as That's Not What I meant to be helpful with these kinds of issues.
posted by statusquoante at 6:26 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
Many people are culturally blind to this. Reeducating them is painful and sometimes fruitless. They make for dull conversationalists as they only have one topic: themselves. It's the equivalent of the person who drones on and on about past experiences, never seeming to wonder if their audience gives a flying fig. You can tell them straight up in some fashion, basically becoming increasingly blunt and straightforward. I call one friend the productivity killer because he parks himself in my workspace to drone on and on, so making it about friendship or insensitivity is not really how to do it. It's just poor education about how to converse with people in a way that keeps it lively.
posted by diode at 7:02 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
posted by diode at 7:02 PM on September 2 [3 favorites]
Yeah my reading of your question was that they were either laconic or keeping you at arms length emotionally, not that they dominated the convo and didn't let you speak, so pls ignore my earlier comment
posted by jello at 9:28 PM on September 2
posted by jello at 9:28 PM on September 2
My experience with friends like this is that they fade away when you stop arranging get-togethers. Perhaps after your trip, you could try not initiating contact with them to gauge their level of interest in the relationship.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:50 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
posted by yellowcandy at 7:50 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
I have friends like this, and i do find it tiring to have a conversation with them. But the kids’ friendship is indeed very valuable, and I would tolerate a lot to keep facilitating that. So go on the trip, enjoy yourself as best you can, and then, yes, let them slowly slip to outer-tier friends. Do only as much as you need to do to keep the kids’ friendship going (which, if they’re 16, you won’t need to do for much longer.)
posted by Ollie at 6:38 PM on September 3
posted by Ollie at 6:38 PM on September 3
I think where I got the wrong idea was here: "when I/we do push and share they sincerely do care but I am flabbergasted that they never would have asked." It sounds like the situation is actually that even when you start to share, you can't really even get the story out. (I'm curious at what point they actually do start to care, but it's not that important if it's this hard to get the story out). I'm like you in that I shut down and pull away in those circumstances. I do think it's possible there's a ND or mood (anxiety) kind of issue here. But given the family issue here I probably wouldn't try to change them and would see if I could get them on topics I find interesting.
posted by slidell at 9:24 PM on September 3
posted by slidell at 9:24 PM on September 3
I have a friend like this - the best event was them having a mini-meltdown with 30 minutes worth of conversation about a speeding ticket, where they were going way over the speed limit but still got a regular ticket - and acting like it was the worst thing in the world, while our other friend next to them came by to tell us they had lost a parent -but didn't get a word in until they left. The person is fine in most other ways, but sometimes you just have to laugh.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:37 PM on September 4
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:37 PM on September 4
slow fade, life’s too short.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:19 AM on September 5
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:19 AM on September 5
I'm surprised by the pushback you got upthread. I mean, I can see how your statement of their "sincere caring" threw a lot of people off. But what surprises me is everyone who kept saying it's a cultural difference, maybe they have been raised to think it's not polite to pry.... apparently without any thought given to the far more common training we all get that it's very very rude to interrupt someone who is talking and talking and talking?
I just don't see how it's ever considered polite for someone to never show any interest in their conversational partner's thoughts and experiences, and in their moment-to-moment reactions in just this conversation. It's not "prying" to share an anecdote and say, "Do you know what I mean? You've been there, right?" as a way of passing the conversational ball. It's not "prying" to ask someone, "Oh hey, how is your garden/crochet project/big trip planning coming along?" - it's basic politeness to remember things about your friends and check in with them about their progress.
So even without your clarification, OP, my thought was: "Rude!" Your friend is being very rude.
But also: her behavior isn't unforgivable and neither is it any reason to end the friendship. It's a small annoyance, as annoyances go, and one that is easily corrected by you swooping yourself into the conversation by force. Sure it's uncomfortable for you, but you are self-aware enough to train yourself to get over it and swoop away.
Because your friend's obnoxiousness isn't *evil*, it's actually kind of human and understandable. A lot of people suffer from anxiety and they just verbally assault you out of sheer terror of silence until you forcibly stop them. My mom does it frequently. One time I was very sick and had lost my voice. She talked at me nonstop for 45 minutes (believe me, I was watching the clock) - just free-associating on all manner of things, before she finally became self aware long enough to say to me, "You're being rather quiet!.... oh! You can't speak! I totally forgot! Sorry!" And then left me alone again.
In my experience our loved ones, when they are being obnoxious in this way, deserve our grace, our mild nudges, our proactively taking over the mantle of the conversation when we want a turn, and our gentle indulgence. NOT indulgence in allowing them to talk and talk without pause - imo that is beastly behavior on our part, we are stewing in our righteous indignation and spitefully giving them enough rope to hang themselves by when we let them run on. No, I mean they deserve our gentle indulgence in fully accepting that they cannot and will not change, this is their way of being, they cannot help it, and we love them anyway.
tl;dr:
Step 1. Love them as they are.
Step 2. Proactively reduce our own irritation by talking over them when it's our turn.
Steps are not necessarily performed in this order.
posted by MiraK at 9:08 AM on September 5
I just don't see how it's ever considered polite for someone to never show any interest in their conversational partner's thoughts and experiences, and in their moment-to-moment reactions in just this conversation. It's not "prying" to share an anecdote and say, "Do you know what I mean? You've been there, right?" as a way of passing the conversational ball. It's not "prying" to ask someone, "Oh hey, how is your garden/crochet project/big trip planning coming along?" - it's basic politeness to remember things about your friends and check in with them about their progress.
So even without your clarification, OP, my thought was: "Rude!" Your friend is being very rude.
But also: her behavior isn't unforgivable and neither is it any reason to end the friendship. It's a small annoyance, as annoyances go, and one that is easily corrected by you swooping yourself into the conversation by force. Sure it's uncomfortable for you, but you are self-aware enough to train yourself to get over it and swoop away.
Because your friend's obnoxiousness isn't *evil*, it's actually kind of human and understandable. A lot of people suffer from anxiety and they just verbally assault you out of sheer terror of silence until you forcibly stop them. My mom does it frequently. One time I was very sick and had lost my voice. She talked at me nonstop for 45 minutes (believe me, I was watching the clock) - just free-associating on all manner of things, before she finally became self aware long enough to say to me, "You're being rather quiet!.... oh! You can't speak! I totally forgot! Sorry!" And then left me alone again.
In my experience our loved ones, when they are being obnoxious in this way, deserve our grace, our mild nudges, our proactively taking over the mantle of the conversation when we want a turn, and our gentle indulgence. NOT indulgence in allowing them to talk and talk without pause - imo that is beastly behavior on our part, we are stewing in our righteous indignation and spitefully giving them enough rope to hang themselves by when we let them run on. No, I mean they deserve our gentle indulgence in fully accepting that they cannot and will not change, this is their way of being, they cannot help it, and we love them anyway.
tl;dr:
Step 1. Love them as they are.
Step 2. Proactively reduce our own irritation by talking over them when it's our turn.
Steps are not necessarily performed in this order.
posted by MiraK at 9:08 AM on September 5
apparently without any thought given to the far more common training we all get that it's very very rude to interrupt someone who is talking and talking and talking?
This is not universal.
posted by knobknosher at 2:50 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]
This is not universal.
posted by knobknosher at 2:50 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]
A style of interrupting or talking simultaneously has been called “New York Jewish” and Deborah Tannen has studied it. (As it happens, my paternal family is both Jewish in origin and from there…my upbringing was tempered by being in Toronto.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:34 AM on September 6 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 8:34 AM on September 6 [1 favorite]
Yes, from that article: “In a conversation among Jews [which the article notes is not all Jews and not only Jews] participants find the simultaneous talk and quick turn-taking unremarkable; they interpret silences and pauses as evidence of lack of rapport and/or interest.
But those not accustomed to that style, according to Tannen, may see such active listening behaviors as rudeness, verbal hogging and lack of interest in the speaker. The very characteristics that promote good conversation among the in-group can create discomfort or hostility among mixed groups.”
Cooperative overlap (known by its non-practitioners by the pejorative term “interrupting”) is not universally rude. It’s a different convention from others’, that’s all. It works great among people who share the style! We’re uncomfortable with your style, too! Many of us don’t know our discomfort or dislike isn’t a matter of conflicting styles, either!
Now, is that the case for this particular couple or are they actually self-centered, I don’t know. But personally, I’d love if people considered the possible anti-Semitic roots of a universal rule that “interrupting is rude,” much as we’ve learned the racist roots of declaring that “ain’t (and other AAVE) is uneducated.”
posted by daisyace at 6:09 AM on September 7
But those not accustomed to that style, according to Tannen, may see such active listening behaviors as rudeness, verbal hogging and lack of interest in the speaker. The very characteristics that promote good conversation among the in-group can create discomfort or hostility among mixed groups.”
Cooperative overlap (known by its non-practitioners by the pejorative term “interrupting”) is not universally rude. It’s a different convention from others’, that’s all. It works great among people who share the style! We’re uncomfortable with your style, too! Many of us don’t know our discomfort or dislike isn’t a matter of conflicting styles, either!
Now, is that the case for this particular couple or are they actually self-centered, I don’t know. But personally, I’d love if people considered the possible anti-Semitic roots of a universal rule that “interrupting is rude,” much as we’ve learned the racist roots of declaring that “ain’t (and other AAVE) is uneducated.”
posted by daisyace at 6:09 AM on September 7
(Missed the edit window to correct where I meant to say, “…don’t know our discomfort or dislike IS a matter of conflicting styles, either!”)
posted by daisyace at 6:20 AM on September 7
posted by daisyace at 6:20 AM on September 7
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I think that’s a conversational style. The expectation is that you’ll offer information about yourself. I was raised that it’s not that polite to ask personal questions and it’s something I’ve had to learn.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:04 AM on September 2 [39 favorites]