Any advice on scaling up home drink recipes to production (infusion)
June 11, 2024 11:27 PM Subscribe
Long story short: Been making homemade nocino for several years, always at the couple jars level. Last year, got my grain neutral spirits from a distillery in exchange for some of the liquor. He liked it; we're scaling up to make it a legit recipe. Thing is, like many home cooks, my measurements were super loose—how do I adjust "to taste" into a solid purchase order?
Previous batches were about 3 liters each; now going to about 54 liters as a batch. For my smaller scale, grating half a nutmeg and tossing the other half in worked great. But can I just assume a linear relationship on stuff like that? How much margin of error do you allow in making orders? I've got some wiggle room in the retail price, since it's a small one-off, but since it's mostly someone else's budget, I want to be deliberate since I have to justify every expense.
Anyone have any advice?
Previous batches were about 3 liters each; now going to about 54 liters as a batch. For my smaller scale, grating half a nutmeg and tossing the other half in worked great. But can I just assume a linear relationship on stuff like that? How much margin of error do you allow in making orders? I've got some wiggle room in the retail price, since it's a small one-off, but since it's mostly someone else's budget, I want to be deliberate since I have to justify every expense.
Anyone have any advice?
I have never done anything like what you are doing, but with my naive ignorance, I would first scale up to say 3x. If that works, double that to 6x. Then double that to 12x. At that point, you have your first order filled (in 3 batches). The extra, I would store to see how it ages.
To actually convert to a commercial production recipe and execution, I think the important part is standardizing proportions. You mention a nutmeg. What size nutmeg? Grating half? Say the nutmeg weighs 4 units of measure (whatever that is). You would need to weigh the grated nutmegs so that that amount is equal to half the total weight of the nutmegs. It needs to be standardized so that anyone (with some knowledge and skill) can read the recipe and recreate it. If there are walnuts involved, same thing. One walnut means nothing in a recipe. Saying 1 walnut of weight between x and x+2 grams means something to the standardization process. If it is dry ingredients, I would use weight measures rather than cups. That ensures consistency between batches.
You also need the right equipment. 54 liters needs much bigger containers to make than 3 liters (natch). Depending on your kitchen (production facility) and equipment, it may have to be made in batches then combined.
So, first convert your home recipe to one that is more precise using weights. Then make a few test batches.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:03 AM on June 12, 2024 [2 favorites]
To actually convert to a commercial production recipe and execution, I think the important part is standardizing proportions. You mention a nutmeg. What size nutmeg? Grating half? Say the nutmeg weighs 4 units of measure (whatever that is). You would need to weigh the grated nutmegs so that that amount is equal to half the total weight of the nutmegs. It needs to be standardized so that anyone (with some knowledge and skill) can read the recipe and recreate it. If there are walnuts involved, same thing. One walnut means nothing in a recipe. Saying 1 walnut of weight between x and x+2 grams means something to the standardization process. If it is dry ingredients, I would use weight measures rather than cups. That ensures consistency between batches.
You also need the right equipment. 54 liters needs much bigger containers to make than 3 liters (natch). Depending on your kitchen (production facility) and equipment, it may have to be made in batches then combined.
So, first convert your home recipe to one that is more precise using weights. Then make a few test batches.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:03 AM on June 12, 2024 [2 favorites]
I add that you will need to find a reliable supplier of the ingredients. Can you find someone to sell you the amount of nutmegs or whatever nuts you use for say 3 batches on a consistent basis?
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:05 AM on June 12, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:05 AM on June 12, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I've done this in both directions. You're moving in the easier of the two: scaling up.
JohnnyGunn above has a good description of the why. Great answer.
As for the how, I'd start with breaking down your existing recipe and converting it into a set of proportions. (Side note: If you've ever read a bread recipe that refers to percent hydration, that's because many bread recipes are developed as proportional, which is also what you want to do.)
You can do this two ways: One is by anticipating the total volume of nocino at the end, the second is by choosing a baseline ingredient and using that as a reference point. When I can, I always choose the latter method. It's much easier. Just be clear to indicate in your recipe that X is your baseline ingredient.
Since you're talking about a liquid, it's even easier. Start with the weight (NOT volume) of neutral spirits you use in your current recipe. You can make that the baseline ingredient.
Then look at your black walnuts, take their weight (again, everything has to be weight, not volume) and express it as a proportion of the neutral spirit weight. So if your current recipe calls for 2,000 grams of neutral alcohol, and you use 500 g of black walnuts, express that as 40% (since 500/2000=.40).
Repeat for all (yes, even small-volume ingredients).
You're still going to need to tweak, but this way at least, you'll understand approximate ratios and relationships between ingredients better and will be able to adjust them in tandem with one another.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2024 [5 favorites]
JohnnyGunn above has a good description of the why. Great answer.
As for the how, I'd start with breaking down your existing recipe and converting it into a set of proportions. (Side note: If you've ever read a bread recipe that refers to percent hydration, that's because many bread recipes are developed as proportional, which is also what you want to do.)
You can do this two ways: One is by anticipating the total volume of nocino at the end, the second is by choosing a baseline ingredient and using that as a reference point. When I can, I always choose the latter method. It's much easier. Just be clear to indicate in your recipe that X is your baseline ingredient.
Since you're talking about a liquid, it's even easier. Start with the weight (NOT volume) of neutral spirits you use in your current recipe. You can make that the baseline ingredient.
Then look at your black walnuts, take their weight (again, everything has to be weight, not volume) and express it as a proportion of the neutral spirit weight. So if your current recipe calls for 2,000 grams of neutral alcohol, and you use 500 g of black walnuts, express that as 40% (since 500/2000=.40).
Repeat for all (yes, even small-volume ingredients).
You're still going to need to tweak, but this way at least, you'll understand approximate ratios and relationships between ingredients better and will be able to adjust them in tandem with one another.
posted by yellowcandy at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I've done this in both directions. You're moving in the easier of the two: scaling up."
Good to know, and thanks for mostly confirming I'm on the right track.
Everything from the previous years was measured in weight, except the final output, which was measured in volume (and in my notes I forgot to account for the volume disparity in 90% spirits, mistakenly clocking it like it was a gram per milliliter). But since I know the ABV and the initial volume, I can work backwards to get pretty close on the weight.
The unripe walnuts are the reference ingredient, constrained by their supply; it takes between three and six months of infusion to make nocino from them, which is why the notion of doing focus groups is a little silly — I'm not looking for advice on how to tweak the original recipe, I've been doing that for years. I'll be tasting it every couple weeks as it goes along, but it is a good thought to try to keep a better log of what flavors to look for, in case someone else is going to replicate this in the future. And I'm working with a pretty small-scale distillery, whose attached bar is the main driver for scaling up to begin with. I'm not trying to pitch Seagrams on my home infusion and ensure global distribution. The distillery has suppliers for the other ingredients, I'm just going to prepare them. And while I'll have to be attentive on subjective things like balance of cinnamons, this should be a much more consistent approach going forward.
Knowing that liquid will mostly scale in a linear manner is helpful, even when dry ingredients aren't fully ground, and measuring the proportions should be pretty simple even if I am realizing I've left myself open to a lot more busywork than I intended (though I don't think grating nine nutmegs will be a huge extra burden). I suppose it makes sense — I'd been concerned about things infusing/extracting at different rates, but given that the whole thing in previous years was done over the same time period, that should already be built in.
(I do kinda wish that I could get a sufficient amount of black walnuts, but because black walnuts aren't really grown commercially for their nuts, it's just California-grown English/Persian walnuts, maybe with a little black walnut in the root stock.)
posted by klangklangston at 3:37 PM on June 12, 2024
Good to know, and thanks for mostly confirming I'm on the right track.
Everything from the previous years was measured in weight, except the final output, which was measured in volume (and in my notes I forgot to account for the volume disparity in 90% spirits, mistakenly clocking it like it was a gram per milliliter). But since I know the ABV and the initial volume, I can work backwards to get pretty close on the weight.
The unripe walnuts are the reference ingredient, constrained by their supply; it takes between three and six months of infusion to make nocino from them, which is why the notion of doing focus groups is a little silly — I'm not looking for advice on how to tweak the original recipe, I've been doing that for years. I'll be tasting it every couple weeks as it goes along, but it is a good thought to try to keep a better log of what flavors to look for, in case someone else is going to replicate this in the future. And I'm working with a pretty small-scale distillery, whose attached bar is the main driver for scaling up to begin with. I'm not trying to pitch Seagrams on my home infusion and ensure global distribution. The distillery has suppliers for the other ingredients, I'm just going to prepare them. And while I'll have to be attentive on subjective things like balance of cinnamons, this should be a much more consistent approach going forward.
Knowing that liquid will mostly scale in a linear manner is helpful, even when dry ingredients aren't fully ground, and measuring the proportions should be pretty simple even if I am realizing I've left myself open to a lot more busywork than I intended (though I don't think grating nine nutmegs will be a huge extra burden). I suppose it makes sense — I'd been concerned about things infusing/extracting at different rates, but given that the whole thing in previous years was done over the same time period, that should already be built in.
(I do kinda wish that I could get a sufficient amount of black walnuts, but because black walnuts aren't really grown commercially for their nuts, it's just California-grown English/Persian walnuts, maybe with a little black walnut in the root stock.)
posted by klangklangston at 3:37 PM on June 12, 2024
Black walnuts litter the streets of Portland OR every fall, if you know anyone up here who wants to drive to you or could come here for it, you could harvest pickup truck loads.
posted by outfielder at 6:59 PM on June 12, 2024
posted by outfielder at 6:59 PM on June 12, 2024
Best answer: My tiny suggestion is to put the nutmegs for the nocino in a separate vessel than ones you would use in the kitchen, and then weigh the -container- on the regular. Weighing the gratings is a fool’s errand. Just weigh the remainder.
One other thing to watch out for as you scale up is -mixing- where you will have to be more active. It’s pretty easy for a 3L vessel to get mixed just with handling and sampling, but a barrel or brew kettle sized batch is going to need some serious action with a mechanical stirrer or a very very long spoon.
posted by janell at 10:55 PM on June 12, 2024 [2 favorites]
One other thing to watch out for as you scale up is -mixing- where you will have to be more active. It’s pretty easy for a 3L vessel to get mixed just with handling and sampling, but a barrel or brew kettle sized batch is going to need some serious action with a mechanical stirrer or a very very long spoon.
posted by janell at 10:55 PM on June 12, 2024 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: My tiny suggestion is to put the nutmegs for the nocino in a separate vessel than ones you would use in the kitchen, and then weigh the -container- on the regular. Weighing the gratings is a fool’s errand. Just weigh the remainder.
That's good advice.
One other thing to watch out for as you scale up is -mixing- where you will have to be more active. It’s pretty easy for a 3L vessel to get mixed just with handling and sampling, but a barrel or brew kettle sized batch is going to need some serious action with a mechanical stirrer or a very very long spoon."
Noted. Already got a mixing paddle for the barrel. Traditional version doesn't take much stirring at all, and honestly, one of the bigger concerns for me is that trying to plot out a schedule is that stirring is hard to measure but should have a pretty big effect on the brew, and the previous recipe had been a "to taste" thing, like, it's ready to decant when the bitterness has been balanced out, then ready to bottle when the astringency in the mouth is gone, and those usually take a couple months and a month, respectively, so I'm worried that it will happen early or late, and once it starts going, it's also largely determined by the timing of the state approval process.
posted by klangklangston at 7:21 PM on June 14, 2024
That's good advice.
One other thing to watch out for as you scale up is -mixing- where you will have to be more active. It’s pretty easy for a 3L vessel to get mixed just with handling and sampling, but a barrel or brew kettle sized batch is going to need some serious action with a mechanical stirrer or a very very long spoon."
Noted. Already got a mixing paddle for the barrel. Traditional version doesn't take much stirring at all, and honestly, one of the bigger concerns for me is that trying to plot out a schedule is that stirring is hard to measure but should have a pretty big effect on the brew, and the previous recipe had been a "to taste" thing, like, it's ready to decant when the bitterness has been balanced out, then ready to bottle when the astringency in the mouth is gone, and those usually take a couple months and a month, respectively, so I'm worried that it will happen early or late, and once it starts going, it's also largely determined by the timing of the state approval process.
posted by klangklangston at 7:21 PM on June 14, 2024
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"Generally", a liquid recipe like that should scale up linearly. But again, you need to make a couple batches, and hold a focus group testing across multiple batches if possible.
posted by kschang at 12:41 AM on June 12, 2024 [1 favorite]