When do you tell a friend the way their spouse talk about them is bad?
April 6, 2024 11:58 AM Subscribe
My wife and I recently moved to a new area, and my wife made friends with a co-worker (A). We started hanging out with A and her wife (B) and were initially excited to have met another 30s lesbian couple in our new neighborhood. I noticed that sometimes B would say things about her wife, A, that I would not say about my wife and that I would not be okay with my wife saying about me. She would comment on what A chose to eat, she dissed her more than she complimented her, and didn't seem that fond of A, but I thought it might just be their schtick.
Recently B revealed to my wife and me that she and A are making big moves in their marriage and are pretty stressed (think family planning). She shared some personal information with us, and I was a little surprised at how much she revealed and some of the things she said. For example, I would not have shared many off the intimate details she shared with if the situation had been reversed. She asked us not to share what she told us with B. My wife and I gave her our thoughts and support, but when we parted ways, we both agreed that A seemed very stressed and we were worried about her.
The four of us hung out the other night, and it was a total bust. A and B bickered, and B was very negative with A. She mentioned that a coworker of A and my wife's was her "soul mate" and lamented that this woman wasn't a lesbian because she was perfect. You could see that A was upset, and A said that statement made her not feel great. My wife and I both felt like this was a weird thing to say, and it got stranger as B went on to expound that this other coworker would never be able to find a good enough man. I have talked to my wife before about how uncomfortable it makes me when A and B talk about other coworker's sexuality (she says she's straight, and so for me that's the end of the story). I said that other coworker has high standards so I thought she'd be able to find a good partner. But it was so weird. I wanted to tell B not to say things like that in front of her wife because it was disrespectful to her relationship, her wife, and to other coworker but I didn't.
The hang-out continued in this fashion with A and B bickering, and B negging A and being critical and weird. The vibes were super off and I told my wife we needed to leave because I was getting super uncomfortable and I'd rather be at home with her and just chill.
My wife and I spoke about it, and my wife agreed that it was not okay for B to have spoken to A that way and that it made her uncomfortable too. My wife is closer to A than I am, and they have more things in common. I suggested that my wife talk to B about the situation and let her know that we both thought A disrespected her. I was surprised that my wife agreed with me because my wife is pretty nonconfrontational, but she was fairly weirded out by the entire night.
In a different situation, a friend was being mistreated by their partner. It was clear then that I had to say something, offer her support, and let her know I was concerned that the mistreatment might escalate. The situation between A and B feels maybe more like a gray area.
I would appreciate some advice to share with my wife about having this kind of sensitive conversation with a friend. Or is it best that just mind our own business? We did decide that we will not be hanging out with A and B again as a couple because this and other previous incidents have shown us that our energies/vibes/ethics as couple friends are not aligned.
Recently B revealed to my wife and me that she and A are making big moves in their marriage and are pretty stressed (think family planning). She shared some personal information with us, and I was a little surprised at how much she revealed and some of the things she said. For example, I would not have shared many off the intimate details she shared with if the situation had been reversed. She asked us not to share what she told us with B. My wife and I gave her our thoughts and support, but when we parted ways, we both agreed that A seemed very stressed and we were worried about her.
The four of us hung out the other night, and it was a total bust. A and B bickered, and B was very negative with A. She mentioned that a coworker of A and my wife's was her "soul mate" and lamented that this woman wasn't a lesbian because she was perfect. You could see that A was upset, and A said that statement made her not feel great. My wife and I both felt like this was a weird thing to say, and it got stranger as B went on to expound that this other coworker would never be able to find a good enough man. I have talked to my wife before about how uncomfortable it makes me when A and B talk about other coworker's sexuality (she says she's straight, and so for me that's the end of the story). I said that other coworker has high standards so I thought she'd be able to find a good partner. But it was so weird. I wanted to tell B not to say things like that in front of her wife because it was disrespectful to her relationship, her wife, and to other coworker but I didn't.
The hang-out continued in this fashion with A and B bickering, and B negging A and being critical and weird. The vibes were super off and I told my wife we needed to leave because I was getting super uncomfortable and I'd rather be at home with her and just chill.
My wife and I spoke about it, and my wife agreed that it was not okay for B to have spoken to A that way and that it made her uncomfortable too. My wife is closer to A than I am, and they have more things in common. I suggested that my wife talk to B about the situation and let her know that we both thought A disrespected her. I was surprised that my wife agreed with me because my wife is pretty nonconfrontational, but she was fairly weirded out by the entire night.
In a different situation, a friend was being mistreated by their partner. It was clear then that I had to say something, offer her support, and let her know I was concerned that the mistreatment might escalate. The situation between A and B feels maybe more like a gray area.
I would appreciate some advice to share with my wife about having this kind of sensitive conversation with a friend. Or is it best that just mind our own business? We did decide that we will not be hanging out with A and B again as a couple because this and other previous incidents have shown us that our energies/vibes/ethics as couple friends are not aligned.
I'd stay out of it. A & B are clearly on the road to breaking up (reading this made me want to Google for "Gottmans" and "contempt," because man, the open contempt is flabbergasting) even if right now they think they are family planning. You don't want to get in the middle of this drama and I'm not sure that privately pointing out to A that B openly can't stand her and wants to be with someone else is going to do anything but have A drop you. I mean, I used to try to gingerly point stuff like that out to a friend of mine in an abusive relationship, but it's walking on eggshells territory and it's gonna be up to A to decide that enough is enough, or that B just up and leaves her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:12 PM on April 6, 2024 [17 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:12 PM on April 6, 2024 [17 favorites]
Best answer: I’d stay out of this too. You just moved to the area, A is your wife’s coworker: that’s one reason that you probably don’t have standing to have a difficult conversation with either party, and one reason that it’s not in your interest to foul your wife’s nest by making it awkward. I fully support your instinct to distance yourselves a little — and if A comes to you guys looking for help getting out of a difficult relationship, my advice might be different — but for now, be polite, slow fade if you like, don’t make any sudden moves.
posted by eirias at 12:19 PM on April 6, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by eirias at 12:19 PM on April 6, 2024 [18 favorites]
You should not get involved unless A or B directly ask for your help or opinion about the relationship.
I do think it's the right decision to no longer hang out with A & B as a couple. However, I do think it would be a kindness to stay in touch with A and let her know that you are could be there as friends/emotional support should things fall apart.
posted by brookeb at 12:35 PM on April 6, 2024 [8 favorites]
I do think it's the right decision to no longer hang out with A & B as a couple. However, I do think it would be a kindness to stay in touch with A and let her know that you are could be there as friends/emotional support should things fall apart.
posted by brookeb at 12:35 PM on April 6, 2024 [8 favorites]
Im not qualified to give advice, but I would ghost the couple and keep it professional only. It would be different if I’d known them and been close friends for years.
They may or may not thrive on dysfunction, but having read this twice I wouldn’t want one or the other to show up with luggage in hand. This feels like a ride you can’t stop at your discretion.
As you mentioned, if there was abuse you’d step in. In that case, you know how to position yourself and what you think success might look like, and how to stack those principles up against workplace grief. This seems to be the opposite unfortunately.
posted by drowsy at 1:15 PM on April 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
They may or may not thrive on dysfunction, but having read this twice I wouldn’t want one or the other to show up with luggage in hand. This feels like a ride you can’t stop at your discretion.
As you mentioned, if there was abuse you’d step in. In that case, you know how to position yourself and what you think success might look like, and how to stack those principles up against workplace grief. This seems to be the opposite unfortunately.
posted by drowsy at 1:15 PM on April 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I've got another vote for stay out of it, even though it's hard to say nothing, as I personally know.
After a long, long time, I (F) reconnected with a very good high school friend. While he wasn't out in high school he is now. He invited me over to his home a few times, the home that he shares with his long-time partner. Said partner is much older than my friend and came from a position of (moral) authority in the community.
As much as I still really liked my friend and as much as I would have loved to have kept in touch with him, watching the way his partner treated him was something I didn't want to experience. The partner put him down, treated him like a child, insulted him, etc. I was so angry on behalf of my friend, but I also know it wasn't my place to say anything. I had newly re-entered his life. He and his partner had been together for years. I didn't really know who my friend was anymore (although, to be fair, it didn't seem like he had changed much, at least in the fundamental ways, from high school).
His partner seemed reluctant to let the two of us socialize separately. And when we did, a lot of the conversation was about the partner (what he did, what he said, etc). It just made me feel really awkward.
I let the relationship fade. I suspect my friend thinks I have a problem with himm being gay, which I totally don't. I just couldn't watch somebody I cared for and who was a big part of my life be treated in that fashion, but I also knew that I had no right to step in and insert myself into their relationship.
posted by sardonyx at 1:34 PM on April 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
After a long, long time, I (F) reconnected with a very good high school friend. While he wasn't out in high school he is now. He invited me over to his home a few times, the home that he shares with his long-time partner. Said partner is much older than my friend and came from a position of (moral) authority in the community.
As much as I still really liked my friend and as much as I would have loved to have kept in touch with him, watching the way his partner treated him was something I didn't want to experience. The partner put him down, treated him like a child, insulted him, etc. I was so angry on behalf of my friend, but I also know it wasn't my place to say anything. I had newly re-entered his life. He and his partner had been together for years. I didn't really know who my friend was anymore (although, to be fair, it didn't seem like he had changed much, at least in the fundamental ways, from high school).
His partner seemed reluctant to let the two of us socialize separately. And when we did, a lot of the conversation was about the partner (what he did, what he said, etc). It just made me feel really awkward.
I let the relationship fade. I suspect my friend thinks I have a problem with himm being gay, which I totally don't. I just couldn't watch somebody I cared for and who was a big part of my life be treated in that fashion, but I also knew that I had no right to step in and insert myself into their relationship.
posted by sardonyx at 1:34 PM on April 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
Stay out of it. A already knows B isn't treating her kindly. You don't want to be caught up in a coworker's marital difficulties, especially if it's not someone you have a longstanding relationship with.
posted by praemunire at 1:49 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 1:49 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
I agree with staying out of it. I wouldn't hang out with them as a couple. As far as feeling good about it, I think your wife continuing to be a friend to A, hanging out in casual contexts while not bringing this would be a kindness. If A does want to leave but is concerned about being isolated, knowing that they have friends that are not "couple friends" will be helpful.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:13 PM on April 6, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:13 PM on April 6, 2024 [2 favorites]
go ahead and tell B that you don't want to hear this when she starts emotionally abusing A
posted by brujita at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by brujita at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2024 [8 favorites]
I would say to A, "I feel a bit uncomfortable about the way she talks to you/about you." and if you need to enlarge on that say it's not something you would do yourself, nor that the people from your culture do. "It sounds like the kind of thing that could leave someone feeling unloved, or be bad for their self esteem."
But I wouldn't say anything that directly criticizes the spouse or attributes malice or indifference to her. You may be thinking that is the case and that A should be thinking so too, but your role here is not to tell A to get a divorce or stand up for herself, nor to judge B. People are very complicated. There is a distant outside chance that A chose B because verbal put downs are familiar to her and their familiarity makes her seek them out, or that something is going on where B is expressing frustration because A has been misusing them. You can get that kind of a dynamic, for example, if A were a binge drinker who was brutal to B whenever they are on a binge, and B is dealing with wounds from that. Of course the most probably situation is what it appears on the surface - B is just a toxic person and A is enmeshed in a situation which is bad for her.
But you don't know A well, not enough to know what her last three partners were like, or her parents, nor if A and B understand their dynamic and what they think about it. So the most you can reasonably do is offer a little reality check, just in case A does not already know full well what it looks like. And then you let it go because anything else you might do would be blindly interfering.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:33 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
But I wouldn't say anything that directly criticizes the spouse or attributes malice or indifference to her. You may be thinking that is the case and that A should be thinking so too, but your role here is not to tell A to get a divorce or stand up for herself, nor to judge B. People are very complicated. There is a distant outside chance that A chose B because verbal put downs are familiar to her and their familiarity makes her seek them out, or that something is going on where B is expressing frustration because A has been misusing them. You can get that kind of a dynamic, for example, if A were a binge drinker who was brutal to B whenever they are on a binge, and B is dealing with wounds from that. Of course the most probably situation is what it appears on the surface - B is just a toxic person and A is enmeshed in a situation which is bad for her.
But you don't know A well, not enough to know what her last three partners were like, or her parents, nor if A and B understand their dynamic and what they think about it. So the most you can reasonably do is offer a little reality check, just in case A does not already know full well what it looks like. And then you let it go because anything else you might do would be blindly interfering.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:33 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
This is a great thing to stay out of. These are new friends and the chances of your advice being well received seem low and if it were, you'd be signing up for a lot of interpersonal badness. A doesn't sound helpless or oblivious, from what you've written, so the reasons she is still with B could range from "their relationship is weird in a way that looks problematic to you but not them" to "this is actually abusive" but even if it's the latter, it just feels very unlikely that a word from a new friend is going to lead to positive change. TL;DR: I don't think you're in a position to help and I do think it sounds like you could instigate an unhappy situation.
posted by less-of-course at 2:33 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by less-of-course at 2:33 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I agree to mostly stay out, but if I was your wife at a moment when she's alone with A I'd probably say something like "Sorry you and B are going through a rough patch, just wanted to let you know you have my support." Basically, I'd show support without actually getting involved in the details.
posted by coffeecat at 2:56 PM on April 6, 2024 [20 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 2:56 PM on April 6, 2024 [20 favorites]
Not your business, and not worth trying to make your business. I've known married couples that went on like that for decades. Well, I've known *of* them because I dropped them from my social circle fairly early. I suggest you do the same.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:59 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:59 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Heavy on the mind your business. I appreciate the reality check MeFi. I thought it would be a kindness to say something. Now I see it wouldn't be and it would drama central. Glad I asked.
posted by spacebologna at 3:35 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by spacebologna at 3:35 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
Best answer: There is one thing you can do, and it might actually help A by letting her know that people outside her marriage see the problems. If they invite you to join them again, your wife can tell A, "I felt awkward last time. Sardonix and I felt uncomfortable with the negative vibe between you and B that day." Or words of her own to communicate, without blaming anyone, that it felt off.
It might not be your wife's style to speak up that way, which is fine. But seriously, don't socialize with them and put up with that dynamic.
posted by wryly at 4:48 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
It might not be your wife's style to speak up that way, which is fine. But seriously, don't socialize with them and put up with that dynamic.
posted by wryly at 4:48 PM on April 6, 2024 [5 favorites]
I think it is also important to separate what are normal differences in how couples communicate about intimate details from when bad communication is going on. In this case, there seems to be some of one and some of the other.
For example, sometimes you have a situation where one person was raised where inability to conceive naturally (whether for queerness or other reasons) was a source of shame, and the other wasn’t. The one partners discomfort about details being shared shouldn’t mean the other partner has to be silent forever about important details about their life, but it may be awkward if they only have couple friends.
However, saying someone else is your soulmate in front of your actual wife is disrespectful full stop.
posted by corb at 7:35 AM on April 7, 2024
For example, sometimes you have a situation where one person was raised where inability to conceive naturally (whether for queerness or other reasons) was a source of shame, and the other wasn’t. The one partners discomfort about details being shared shouldn’t mean the other partner has to be silent forever about important details about their life, but it may be awkward if they only have couple friends.
However, saying someone else is your soulmate in front of your actual wife is disrespectful full stop.
posted by corb at 7:35 AM on April 7, 2024
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posted by spacebologna at 12:00 PM on April 6, 2024 [1 favorite]