Committing to using an e-collar on my herding dog
February 17, 2024 8:01 PM   Subscribe

This charming lass is a 3 year-old border Aussie named Holly. She's plateaued in her training, and our trainer would like us to use an e-collar. I'm having a hard time coming to terms with it, since it seems, well, cruel. Can I get opinions on e-collars?

When we got her a year and a half ago, she didn't know her name, didn't know what toys were, didn't know what cuddling was, had terrible behaviors, and thought other dogs were to be herded by charging them at full speed. Since then, she's learned her name, is a goofball with toys, has good manners, is the best cuddler ever, and... still likes charging other dogs and pulling out their butt fluff.

Holly gets 3 hours of good walks and training a day, and is a bit of a lazy slug. She's definitely a "carry me to the sheep" working dog. But we'd like to get her back to the dog park so she can run, if we can fix this behavioral issue.

Our trainer has suggested a variable level e-collar (and we've done some training with it), since we can "tell" her to stop at a distance. But I'm concerned that the trust we've built with her will be damaged.

Despite being quite dominant in her behaviors, she's also very eager to please us. Are there other training alternatives? Or should I just get over it and use the e-collar?
posted by SunSnork to Pets & Animals (19 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
Your instincts are correct. There are alternatives for developing recall that a force-free/LIMA trainer can work with you on (while getting you away from this not-that-useful dominant-submissive paradigm), but, bluntly, better you never take her to the dog park again than that you coerce her compliance by electroshocking her.
posted by praemunire at 8:22 PM on February 17, 2024 [30 favorites]


While I think shock collars are pretty terrible for the most part, well, working dogs.

I worked with Pointers and Vizsalas one year. I had one pointer who would work well, until he got bored, and then, whoosh, he was going to run around in that other field over there. Maybe for an hour. I didn't have an hour to wait for him. Had one other one that was a bit of a problem as well. So our bosses made up use shock collars. I did use it on myself to understand what it felt like, but at least for Dan, he was convinced to come when I called him. The other troublesome one would just stand there, glaring at me and vibrating.

But working dogs want to do their work. Its what has been bred into them. Growing up with Goldens, had never worked with dogs that seemed to care less about getting praised. "Where's the next bird, I don't care what you think about it!"

IT sounds like she has gotten much better. But charging other dogs at the dog park is a problem. And the dogs I was working with were not pets, so obidience to commands was more important than trust issues. A couple of the low powered shocks, then using the collar without anything but the weight of it did the job.
posted by Windopaene at 8:25 PM on February 17, 2024 [3 favorites]


I have a sweet dog who has to occasionally wear a shock collar, and I haaaate it, but we have not been able to train her out of barking protectively any other way. The good news is that she only had to wear it a couple of times and be praised hugely for not barking that for months she will be fine, until she forgets and starts barking loudly again. I hate it but she is also not at all food motivated so training her the regular way hasn't worked. She does not like it much, but she doesn't push back or whine or hide when I put it on, which she very much does when I bring out nail clippers or take her near her nemesis, gantry gates, so she doesn't hate it.

I would ask for other methods first and have the e-collar as back-up. There are also collars that just spray yucky citrus scents as opposed to a small zap. This is worth fixing because Holly as sweet as she is with you, could not have another dog live/play with her and that's a big loss for a young dog.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:14 PM on February 17, 2024 [3 favorites]


Holly's made so much progress! Maybe work with a training team offering group classes next? Or try a good doggie daycare, where you've described these remaining issues to trained staff, discussed options, and your pup is part of a smaller, well-monitored population? (Even if Holly was a "perfectly" obedient 3-year-old, most dog parks are unpredictable environments and she's still new to them.)

Mainly, I think it's enough that you don't want to use the collar; why should you "just get over it"?
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:15 PM on February 17, 2024 [4 favorites]


E collars have been banned in England as of February 2024. Given that England is hardly at the vanguard of ethical behaviour in lots of respects, I would take notice of this. Your instincts are correct, and you shouldn’t try to “get over” them.

Not only should you avoid the e collar, you should avoid the trainer who suggested that you use one.
posted by JJZByBffqU at 9:27 PM on February 17, 2024 [26 favorites]


So, we had to resort to using one with a problem barker. (Every other method we tried had just escalated the dog's emotions.)

We always always always kept it set to a low "huh, that feels a little weird!" level (you can test it on yourself!) and never anything painful. She'd immediately stop barking and do that quizzical doggy cocked-head thing, and we'd tell her what a good dog she was for quieting down. The goal wasn't ever to hurt or punish the dog in any way, just to distract her for half a second so we could squeeze in some positive reinforcement for the improved behavior, and it was very effective for that.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:59 PM on February 17, 2024 [10 favorites]


My parent’s dog has an e-collar during the summers when they are snowbirds at a farmhouse in Maine with a few acres of fields and some edge woods and a frog pond. She is by no means a working dog but absolutely loves being out pretty much the whole day every summer. They set it up so she has full run of their legal property except a few yards in on the driveway and around the mailbox, because she is growly and that can worry people who don’t know her (she is just a vocal grumbly dog and has never bitten anything bigger than a ladybug.)

The collar has always been set to its lowest setting and I have been shocked by it one time when we were picking her up from the guy who cares for her when the parents are gone overnight and hadn’t put her collar back on, and I was holding it in my lap as we went over the driveway line. It felt like the smallest tingle. Yes, I noticed it, and yes, I weigh more than the dog and it was on my palm and not at my neck. But it didn’t even itch afterwards, or redden, and I have very sensitive skin. I’ve been shocked before by accident, nothing too concerning but enough to feel it for minutes afterward and notice skin irritation. The e-collar shock was nowhere near that. It felt more like I’d gotten some minty air high-fived on me than a shock. I asked my dad if it was broken or something and he said no, that’s just how it is, and they never even tried the higher settings.

She is very good and I’ve only seen her cross the invisible line once. She knows when they go for walks she can cross it once her harness and leash are on and the e-collar is off. One time they hadn’t bothered taking off the harness but had put the collar back on and we were hanging on the porch. She went running full-tilt towards the property line to grumble at a neighbor who was driving his little tractor down the road, which I guess she hadn’t ever seen before. She ran over the line, kind of stuttered in her gait, barked, and ran back to where she normally observes passersby. Clearly she got confused because she felt her harness still on. We huffed after her to make sure everything was okay and she was lying in the grass wagging her tail at the tractor chugging away up the road and behaved completely normally the rest of my visit.

So anyway I guess I’m okay with a very low level e-collar. I am not sure though how well it would work for the purpose you’re discussing. Part of its efficacy for territory bounding is its consistency. If you’re controlling it, watching for her behaviors, you are the point of failure for the system. So you’d need to be constantly watching and also making sure you get it at just the right time so she doesn’t associate it with the wrong stuff and basically, you will still need to be fully present and close by. Like, if you could make it so every other dog at the dog park had a buzzer on their butt fluff that she gets buzzed by every chomp, then that would make sense. Alas, dogs do not work that way. I don’t think that an e-collar would destroy trust or be unethical or whatever at a low enough power, so it might be worth trying, but it also sounds like you could use other styles of correction and avoid the issue.
posted by Mizu at 2:38 AM on February 18, 2024 [1 favorite]


WTF. A shock collar for dog reactivity? Seriously?? Your trainer is working with lazy, outdated, and abusive methods. I have no idea why the US doesn't finally outlaw shock collars. There's plenty of Youtube videos of humans trying them - like this lady. She is really scared (and quite aggressive!), even though she can take the collar off at any time. She understands electricity. What she's feeling is increased tenfold if the pain happens randomly and there's no escape.

If you wouldn't wear a shock collar that goes off randomly and that you cannot under any circumstances take off, you don't get to put one on your dog.

I'm glad you don't want to. And yes, temperament changes are super likely, especially for goofy dogs and sensitive ones (like herding dogs). Many of them become much more timid, which is sad to see. What's also very likely in this particular case is that the issue gets much worse. Let's say you use a shock collar. Holly will absolutely understand that other dogs are necessary to make the pain happen. Do you think that will make her more calm and comfortable around other dogs? Neither do I. She's more likely to freeze at the sight of dogs, but then turn into a snarling monster when they get too close. I'm not trying to be dramatic here. That's just what has happened in cases I've been involved in, over and over. It's very simple learning theory, classical conditioning: If a certain stimulus is accompanied by pain, the animal will feel fear at its approach and very often become aggressive. And once Holly is at that stage, you'll have to turn up the power to get a reaction...and turn it up a little more...and in the end, you get to decide if you want your dog yelping in pain and dazed after. Those collars are not harmless. Some trainers advocate turning it up until the dog is on the ground. Please, please, be careful who you trust.

A force-free trainer would teach Holly that upon seeing another dog, she should independently run to you and expect wonderful things. With this approach, she's safely with you and she's learning that dogs are actually pretty awesome! It's also really handy if you're ever on hikes. I can let my dogs run ahead a little bit - they know that when they see a dog, it pays to come back immediately. I can then decide if they can go play, or should stay with me.

It sounds like you've made great progress and just need help with the dog issue now. You don't need a shock collar for that. Training herding dogs to reliably stop on a whistle is child's play for a force-free trainer. Really. They're ridiculously easy to train if you've got the correct rewards (sounds like Holly might like to be rewarded with play?) With a force-free trainer to point you in the right direction, this problem can be solved within a few weeks.

I want to push back on the idea that Holly needs a dog park. I'm a dog trainer, and pretty good at "reading" dogs. Many of them are miserable at dog parks. The big and ever-changing groups don't facilitate healthy socializing. Dogs are meant to live within their family - strangers are stressful for many of them. What looks like play is often appeasement.

Holly does need to run, though. That should be easily achievable outside of the dog park. Do you have access to a lawn, a soccer field, a riding hall, an unused public basketball court? Put Holly on a long line, and play fetch or teach her to run around you in circles (like a horse). Depending on the distance at which she'll be tempted to charge, you could consider letting the leash drag if you're all alone. In a smaller (enclosed) area, flirtpoling is ideal for dogs that love to run but can't be off-leash much. Some people have started "renting" out their enclosed backyards for dogs to sniff and play.

By the way: Holly's herding of other dogs signifies that she needs an outlet specifically for the herding. There's a sport for herding dogs that's called "Treibball", but any sport with long-distance cues could scratch that itch. Ask your new trainer what's available. (Don't ask your old one.) Agility is offered everywhere, and many herding dogs love that stuff. The classes don't usually allow the dogs to interact much (because the dogs don't want to be interrupted in what, to them, is serious work). That setting could be perfect for Holly because she'd be exposed to the problematic stimulus, but while doing what she loves.

You probably know this, but herding dogs rarely love to socialize with dogs. They tend to be focused on their people. I don't think I've ever even seen a Border Collie play with a dog he's just met. They usually take a long time to warm up. I passed two Border Collies with my very friendly Labs yesterday. They never even looked at us, too busy staring at their lady.

You didn't mention if Holly gets to use her nose much. Dogs need nose work. Scatter kibble in the grass every day. You can have her search for a whole meal, take 20 minutes, and end up happy and content to chill in the grass for a bit. Getting a zippered dummy to fill with food could be great for her, too.

Despite being quite dominant in her behaviors.

"Dominance" doesn't work that way. Dogs aren't "dominant" or "submissive". The term is used by wildlife biologists to describe which animal has the upper hand in a particular situation, usually a resource conflict. As in, two dogs want the comfy bed - who gets it? This changes from day to day and is not a personality trait. The behaviours many people read as "dominant" (barking, growling, stealing food, destructiveness, mounting, marking, mouthing, "disobedience") are just a sign that training is needed. Dogs are animals well-suited to living with humans, but they're also very different from us. All that "dominant" behaviour would be absolutely fine in most canine interactions, and learning our silly rules is difficult. By the way, if your trainer is talking about "dominance" as a personality trait, she has not looked at the science for the last three decades.

But I'm concerned that the trust we've built with her will be damaged.

That's not only possible, but likely. Dogs understand who's putting that collar on them. Force-free trainers like me are called after the "alpha" trainers have messed people's dogs up. That might sound arrogant, but they really do come in with stories of incredibly cruel "training". We (try to) fix trust issues that stem from abusive training all the time. Sounds like Holly didn't have a fun puppyhood. If the people she trusts now start to hurt her...that could be catastrophic.

PS Look up Kikopup (who has lots of herding dogs) on Youtube for some excellent solo training advice. I believe she has videos for dog reactivity.
posted by toucan at 4:21 AM on February 18, 2024 [31 favorites]


I work in animal protection. We have a non-negotiable policy banning shock collars and negative reinforcement generally. I'll echo the comments above the suggest this trainer is operating from a very outdated paradigm.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:44 AM on February 18, 2024 [10 favorites]


To be clear, an ecollar does not have to shock. I know plenty of people who use them and they don't even have the shocking contacts installed on them. These people just use the vibrate and noise and light functionality of them.

If your trainer is suggesting you shock your dog, get a new trainer. If your trainer is suggesting you use an ecollar to change your dog's focus with the vibration or beep functions, that can be a reasonable suggestion.

If you have a working dog that is focused on the task their inbreeding has led them to, a vocal command is not always going to be sufficient for changing that focus. The vibration function is not at all painful. It's like the vibration your phone does and just like the vibrating phone is hard to ignore, the vibrating collar is the same. It temporarily takes the animal's mind off the thing it is focused on giving you a split second to issue a command while the dog is thinking "What just happened?!" I have put them on myself at full blast and it is not painful, just distracting.

So, you need to clarify with your trainer what they mean by ecollar.
posted by dobbs at 6:19 AM on February 18, 2024 [13 favorites]


It sounds like she is doing so well.

I can't really comment on ecollars, but I have a part herding dog pup and my trainer does not think dog parks are good or necessary.

Some of that will depend on your environment, but we use a long lead. We do small group classes (4 dogs) and are working up to agility and rally classes, as well as treibball. I'll echo that for my pup, at least, in the small classes, he's interested in the other dogs and it's good to be around them - but what he loves is the work.

My trainer also has a steay-and-learn doggy daycare - 6 dogs, 3 handlers. It's pricey but something like that as an intermediary step might help more than the ecollars. It's one day a week and seems to be helping a couple of the more reactive dogs in our classes.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on February 18, 2024 [4 favorites]


We love Aussies and collies and we got a male who was more than we bargained for in terms of dashing and barking. He only has one bark, you have to watch his tail to understand the message. So…. him enthusiastically greeting four year olds is not good.

We had tried everything in our area and our use of the collar was one day at the lowest setting. It wasn't for us. Instead I installed higher gates etc.

I agree that dog parks are not one size fits all. The one we can walk to tries to facilitate scheduled play dates, so the mix can be more predictable for participants. Our dog is happier when there are familiar dogs to visit with. It isn't perfect but at least there is less stress bc the owners know it is all noise and no danger.
posted by drowsy at 7:27 AM on February 18, 2024


I was coming in to make the same point as dobbs. We use e-collars with our dogs, which are large working dogs, but 99.9% of the time we are using the "page" button, which sends a vibration rather than any kind of shock. The e-collar allows us to let the dogs off-lead in big parks/nature areas and run around with freedom, which we could not do if we did not have a way of making them stop/return quickly if needed. The dogs quickly become "collar smart" - they know when they have the e-collar on, and they obey "come back here" commands much better simply because they know they are wearing the collar and they don't like the "page" vibration. Sure, there are other ways to train dogs to return from a distance, but, if you are letting them run around in a nature preserve, things can happen - like a deer running by - that can be a big distraction and potentially have the dog tearing off into the distance, which can be dangerous. The e-collar is the best solution in my experience.
posted by Mid at 7:55 AM on February 18, 2024 [4 favorites]


I agree with everyone who is saying no collar and fire this trainer. Shock collars should be banned. My complete asshole neighbor uses them on his dogs and I am scarred for life. Have you ever heard a dog scream? Once I came across a giggling salt of the earth older couple using one out in the woods to “train” their terrified golden retriever to stay near them off leash. Do you think it’s ok to torture your dog? Because make no mistake, that’s what shock collars are for. You are teaching your dog that they can be suddenly physically attacked for no reason, out of the blue, any time, by a terrifying, painful, invisible force. Do you think that will lead to a happy, calm dog? Yeah, me either.

Dog parks suck. Dogs don’t like them. I have a traumatized rescue hound who is dog reactive and I would never put him through that. If you’re worried about socialization, make some friends with dogs. If you want your dog to run off leash, find a park or big open space or the woods or the beach or somewhere that’s going to be okay. Most herding dogs will stay pretty close to you without the use of force all by themselves. I used to have a collie. He came when I whistled, every single time, without fail and there was never pain involved. Even my hound mix will come back when I whistle a good 85% of the time - so he stays on leash in the woods.
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:27 AM on February 18, 2024 [8 favorites]


I should follow up by saying the collar wasn’t for us even at the lowest setting largely because we did not feel that we could be consistent with it. Timing etc is everything. So even if there is a vibrate only collar out there, we did not feel we could connect that stimulus to the situation and our voices etc, with two different people having the controls at different times.

Plus, we can stand in between the dog and his barking target and tell him he has made us all safe and did his job good boy, and it has no effect. So we extrapolated in our heads to the level of distraction needed and put the collar away.
posted by drowsy at 11:39 AM on February 18, 2024


To be clear, an ecollar does not have to shock. I know plenty of people who use them and they don't even have the shocking contacts installed on them. These people just use the vibrate and noise and light functionality of them.

Please keep in mind that the vibration is also aversive to many dogs. If the e-collar weren't serving as an aversive conditioning tool, then why not use other methods?

I know not everyone is a big fan of reddit, but the r/dogs and r/dogtraining subreddit are quite good, and this thread has a very good discussion of why ecollars should never be used on dogs.

Also keep in mind that herding breeds are often particularly sensitive, compared to the sporting breeds like labs/goldens/etc. Your instinct that this could damage your dog's trust in you is very good, and you should listen to it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some herding dogs just don't do so well interacting with other dogs. Some non-herding dogs interpret the herding dog behavior as aggressive - the nipping, the charging, the herding.

Don't use the ecollar. I would find a new trainer. Better to avoid dog parks completely then to go to the dog park. Some dogs just don't do well in dog parks, and frankly, dog parks are kind of a mind field as it is.

If you need a fenced in area for your dog to run around in, there's "sniff spot" which allows you to rent fenced in yards from people, sort of like AirBnB but for back yard dog play areas.

Also consider agility training. I do that with my small poodle mix, and it's a great outlet to get them running around, focused on you, and to give them mental stimulation.
posted by litera scripta manet at 11:58 AM on February 18, 2024 [4 favorites]


If the e-collar weren't serving as an aversive conditioning tool, then why not use other methods?

A vibrating collar is no different than reaching out and touching your dog, except you can do it at 100s of meters. Are you against touching your dog?

My own dog is *extremely* food oriented, but if she is focused on something she's hunting, like a treed racoon, she will sit at the bottom of the tree all day staring at the animal until it comes down or I physically remove her. In that focus, she will not take a treat an inch in front of her nose. This is a fact whether you wish to believe it or not. She will come to my whistle from 100s of meters away without issue, but with a treed racoon she will not so much as turn her head if I'm a foot behind her calling her name.

Even the linked video of Kikopup has a method of "moving your dog" from the situation. If the dog is 30 feet from you, or running towards another dog at high speed, how are you supposed to do that?

I was in a 3KM+ offleash park just a few days ago walking with the same six people / dogs that I have every day for a decade. A coyote decided to cut through and all the dogs started chasing it. My dog comes when I whistle or head in the opposite direction; I did both, but I was also buffeted knowing a fence was ahead which the coyote could jump but my senior dog could not. Other dogs returned when called, and one, a hunting dog, would still be chasing the coyote today without the vibrating ecollar. Again, this is a fact. In this situation, for my dog, the physical fence acted exactly the same way as the vibrating collar in that it momentarily broke my dog's focus and allowed my whistle to penetrate my dog's attention.

With clicker training, I have trained dogs to do all kinds of things from basic commands to turning the lights in my house on or off. It is an incredible and effective way to train an animal. But all dogs are different and learn in different ways. Outlawing humane methods like vibrating collars for all dogs is misguided.

And though I am for the efficacy of vibrating collars in some situations, I would not recommend it for the OP even though it could possibly work for the dog. The chances of it being used improperly are high based on the info in the question and would probably prove ineffective. That doesn't mean ecollars can't work with some dogs / trainers in some situations where everything else has been tried.

Dog parks suck. Dogs don’t like them.

This is an absurd claim. For anyone with a high energy dog dog parks are a necessity. My dog moves 25KM+ per day outside year round and I do not have a yard. This would be impossible in Toronto without a dog park.

I've owned a number of dogs, trained many more, and lived with dozens of them around the world while pet sitting in seven countries. Well over 100 dogs in my care in my life. I can recall three that wouldn't like the dog park. If you've encountered an inordinate number of dogs who do not like the dog park, I would suspect you are the common denominator and it's your energy of not liking the dog park that is being mirrored by the dogs rather than their own dislike.
posted by dobbs at 12:55 PM on February 18, 2024 [5 favorites]


Here's a podcast episode where two dog trainers discuss the use of ecollars. One trainer historically hasn't used ecollars in his practice because he's seen ecollars "mess up" lot of dogs. The other trainer uses ecollars successfully in his practice. He has the owner put on the shock collar to understand the levels of intensity. Then he puts the ecollar on himself and works with the owners to calibrate timing and intensity of corrections. Only then does he have the owner provide corrections to the dog through the ecollar.

My summary isn't doing the podcast episode justice.
posted by oceano at 7:11 PM on February 18, 2024


Best answer: I'm not as down on ecollars as some in this thread, but based on 20 years of Aussie experience, I would strongly strongly advise against using them on Aussies. As a rule, Aussies are both highly intelligent and highly sensitive. They tend to be existentially oriented toward the working relationship with their handlers; so physical aversives, like ecollars, can work in the sense that they may successfully modify a behavior, but often that comes at the price of damaging the bond between you and your dog. Which is to say, it damages the source of their emotional well-being. It sounds like you've been doing a great job with Holly; 3 is a very normal age for the training "gains" to diminish and to enter into "refine and maintain" mode.

The dog park is likely very over-stimulating for her. toucan is correct that herding dogs don't have as high own-species social needs as some other types of dogs. If you think about how livestock herding works, it's no surprise that they tend to prefer more small group or one-on-one dog activities, or, even better, parallel play, like co-walking. Also, in my experience, people over-estimate their herding dog's need for physical exercise and underestimate their needs for mental stimulation. But you don't say that she's having problems in the house, like volunteering as trash inspector. It's possible that the training/exercise combo you've got is plenty to meet her needs, without the extra stress of the dog park.

Both you and Holly will be much more relaxed and happy if you prioritize setting yourselves up for success, which mean not putting either her or yourself in situations that are too difficult or overwhelming. Training is very good and worthwhile, but you can spend a lot of time and effort trying to train your dog to not eat the hamburgers you store on the coffee table, instead of just finding a new place to keep your hamburger, y'know? Humans with our big ol' frontal cortex don't always do a great job resisting our basic instincts; it's unfair to ask dogs to be better at it than us.

If you do decide that the dog park is a place you'd someday like to be able to go, I recommend starting off really slow--much, much slower than you're probably imagining. Like, go to the dog park when it's not busy and just walk past it, then go home. When she can walk by it while staying relaxed, then try spending time sitting or walking around outside the enclosure. Go when there's zero other dogs there and let her smell all the smells. Do some training exercises she knows really well. Have some puppy play dates with other individual dog park goers, so she can have pals who can model correct behavior. You want to be working within her window of tolerance, where she can be relaxed, focused and attentive. It won't be fast; but it will build her confidence in herself and in you and overall increase her ability to handle distracting environments. That's how you get a really good dog, not just at 3, but for the rest of her life. Good luck!
posted by radiogreentea at 5:33 PM on February 20, 2024 [2 favorites]


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