It’s quittin’ time… or is it?
January 24, 2024 8:07 AM Subscribe
Did I make a huge mistake? Put in my notice to quit my fancy job with nothing lined up, with the alternative being forced to move back to the US (but being paid $$$ if I stick around for a few more months)
Background: I’m an employee at a big multinational company headquartered in the US. During the COVID lockdown remote work period, I managed to get permission to transfer to the satellite office in my home country while still working for my original team. This has gone on for about a year and a half and been mostly great—I remained productive, got to spend more time with my family, generally was much happier than when I was living in the States. I bought a small property intending to stay for good, even though after COL adjustment I’m getting paid much less. Last week HR has finally decided, in an apparently sudden change in attitude, that enough is enough, and issued an ultimatum that I must return and be on US payroll by the end of March or be terminated, no exceptions or extensions. I stewed over it for a few days and decided to quit.
Reasons why I decided to quit: Mostly… pride? I feel proud for making a decision that prioritizes my quality of life and relationships instead of money, and it feels good to have agency in the decision to leave rather than being at my company’s beck and call. I have enough savings to not work for a decent period (years if it comes to that; hopefully not!). I am fairly confident I can find a job if not my dream job, especially with this last fancy job on my resume. I intend to decompress for a few months while casually looking for anything genuinely exciting, and then reevaluating how I feel after that.
Why I’m having second thoughts: Well… money. If I move and just stick it out to the end of the year in a furnished flat, I get a couple solid RSU payouts (guaranteed) and a generous bonus (expected). I clearly don’t need it to survive, but it would pad out my safety net and/or be a very nice addition to my retirement fund if I took it and then just quit with ample notice at the end of the year. By choosing to leave, it’s likely I’ve already peaked in my lifetime salary trajectory (I’m in my early 30s). Fear of the unknown is also a factor... I’ve worked here for nearly 6 years and it’s surprising how much of my identity has gotten wrapped up around my work, despite my very best efforts. It is exciting to be actively building a life in my home country, but maybe a few more months wouldn’t be too bad?
Is this just cold feet? Or should I try to walk my decision back? My manager is pretty understanding of my whole deal and I’m pretty sure I’d be welcomed back with open arms if I changed my mind, preferably sooner than later.. I’d have to swallow my pride significantly to do so, though (see entire paragraph above about my pride). Is quitting now me being overly stubborn, or making a principled choice? Would moving and taking the payout be me being pragmatic, or just plain avaricious? What are your thoughts?
Background: I’m an employee at a big multinational company headquartered in the US. During the COVID lockdown remote work period, I managed to get permission to transfer to the satellite office in my home country while still working for my original team. This has gone on for about a year and a half and been mostly great—I remained productive, got to spend more time with my family, generally was much happier than when I was living in the States. I bought a small property intending to stay for good, even though after COL adjustment I’m getting paid much less. Last week HR has finally decided, in an apparently sudden change in attitude, that enough is enough, and issued an ultimatum that I must return and be on US payroll by the end of March or be terminated, no exceptions or extensions. I stewed over it for a few days and decided to quit.
Reasons why I decided to quit: Mostly… pride? I feel proud for making a decision that prioritizes my quality of life and relationships instead of money, and it feels good to have agency in the decision to leave rather than being at my company’s beck and call. I have enough savings to not work for a decent period (years if it comes to that; hopefully not!). I am fairly confident I can find a job if not my dream job, especially with this last fancy job on my resume. I intend to decompress for a few months while casually looking for anything genuinely exciting, and then reevaluating how I feel after that.
Why I’m having second thoughts: Well… money. If I move and just stick it out to the end of the year in a furnished flat, I get a couple solid RSU payouts (guaranteed) and a generous bonus (expected). I clearly don’t need it to survive, but it would pad out my safety net and/or be a very nice addition to my retirement fund if I took it and then just quit with ample notice at the end of the year. By choosing to leave, it’s likely I’ve already peaked in my lifetime salary trajectory (I’m in my early 30s). Fear of the unknown is also a factor... I’ve worked here for nearly 6 years and it’s surprising how much of my identity has gotten wrapped up around my work, despite my very best efforts. It is exciting to be actively building a life in my home country, but maybe a few more months wouldn’t be too bad?
Is this just cold feet? Or should I try to walk my decision back? My manager is pretty understanding of my whole deal and I’m pretty sure I’d be welcomed back with open arms if I changed my mind, preferably sooner than later.. I’d have to swallow my pride significantly to do so, though (see entire paragraph above about my pride). Is quitting now me being overly stubborn, or making a principled choice? Would moving and taking the payout be me being pragmatic, or just plain avaricious? What are your thoughts?
Yeah, I'd get the old job back, keep your new property in your home country, move to the US for 9 months, grab the RSU and bonus payments and THEN give them the finger. Easier said than done, but, sucks to leave cash that you have earned on the table.
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 AM on January 24, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 AM on January 24, 2024 [13 favorites]
I'd delay. The furnished apartment is a massive incentive, especially if you're talking about nine months or so. Could you also rent out your current place to add more income to the "pro" column?
posted by yellowcandy at 8:47 AM on January 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by yellowcandy at 8:47 AM on January 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
At this point in the process, all you're able to do is second guess yourself. There have been numerous articles about employers' increasingly hardline efforts to implement full-time RTO policies, but there have also been articles about how companies that do that are struggling with employee retention and recruiting. Up to this point your company's upper management and HR department have really just been able to think about this policy in the abstract, and while they should have considered what this policy change is going to do to their productivity goals, they may find that more employees are calling their bluff than they are willing to lose. Let them come to you and make you a counteroffer. If they don't, then, cynically, you were never that important to them anyway, and you could look for employers who will value you as more than a line item on a spreadsheet.
Also, FWIW, quitting isn't always final. One of my wife's coworkers requested the ability to relocate after her husband got a great job offer in another city, and their employer strung her along for weeks before somewhat arbitrarily denying the request. The entire department had said she could have done her job remotely, but HR decided they needed to draw a line somewhere and that was the line they chose to draw. So she quit, and she moved, and it all felt like somebody somewhere was just making an example of her instead of making an exception for her, or even better, revising a policy that was causing this sort of issue in other departments too. Fast forward about a year and a half: somebody else in the department retired, that person had always been a remote employee, and the open position was seen as an opportunity for a new remote worker. Guess who they hired.
posted by fedward at 8:54 AM on January 24, 2024 [1 favorite]
Also, FWIW, quitting isn't always final. One of my wife's coworkers requested the ability to relocate after her husband got a great job offer in another city, and their employer strung her along for weeks before somewhat arbitrarily denying the request. The entire department had said she could have done her job remotely, but HR decided they needed to draw a line somewhere and that was the line they chose to draw. So she quit, and she moved, and it all felt like somebody somewhere was just making an example of her instead of making an exception for her, or even better, revising a policy that was causing this sort of issue in other departments too. Fast forward about a year and a half: somebody else in the department retired, that person had always been a remote employee, and the open position was seen as an opportunity for a new remote worker. Guess who they hired.
posted by fedward at 8:54 AM on January 24, 2024 [1 favorite]
Would moving and taking the payout be me being pragmatic, or just plain avaricious?
I vote pragmatic. As a great sage once said, money can be exchanged for goods and services, and American money will go even farther in a low COL place like your home country. In your shoes, I'd think about how many months of time in my home country could be financed by the RSU/bonus/nine months of working at your presumably de-COL-adjusted salary before quitting at the end of the year.
Is that number worth the humble pie? And will coming back help you with getting a remote position in the future?
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:56 AM on January 24, 2024
I vote pragmatic. As a great sage once said, money can be exchanged for goods and services, and American money will go even farther in a low COL place like your home country. In your shoes, I'd think about how many months of time in my home country could be financed by the RSU/bonus/nine months of working at your presumably de-COL-adjusted salary before quitting at the end of the year.
Is that number worth the humble pie? And will coming back help you with getting a remote position in the future?
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:56 AM on January 24, 2024
I think you're being stubbornly proud. If the rewards are as substantial as you are suggesting then continuing at a job you like in a living environment that you apparently have worked in before and didn't hate is a small thing. It also gives you some space to make decisions about your future rather than cramming it all into a month.
Most importantly it gives you time to line up your current position as a remote one again. HR has the upper hand right now with a broad mandate to bring people back -- when that frenzy is over there will again be an interest in carving exceptions for individuals.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:00 AM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Most importantly it gives you time to line up your current position as a remote one again. HR has the upper hand right now with a broad mandate to bring people back -- when that frenzy is over there will again be an interest in carving exceptions for individuals.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:00 AM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
As another famous sage once said: "Pride only hurts, it never helps."
In other words, you might be able to slack off really nicely for the next 0 to 9 months while you decompress from this job and map out your future plans more accurately. A lot of people are in the same boat right now.
posted by credulous at 9:19 AM on January 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
In other words, you might be able to slack off really nicely for the next 0 to 9 months while you decompress from this job and map out your future plans more accurately. A lot of people are in the same boat right now.
posted by credulous at 9:19 AM on January 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
Sit down with the numbers and the list of pros and cons. If you go back to the US for 9 - 12 months and get a bunch of money, that seems like a sweet deal.
Can you offer to be a consultant? or is there some other way to generate income without moving to the US permanently. Honestly, the US in a presidential election year is hard to take, but setting yourself up for better success seems like a no-brainer.
posted by theora55 at 10:04 AM on January 24, 2024
Can you offer to be a consultant? or is there some other way to generate income without moving to the US permanently. Honestly, the US in a presidential election year is hard to take, but setting yourself up for better success seems like a no-brainer.
posted by theora55 at 10:04 AM on January 24, 2024
I would look very closely into the contract and ramifications of quitting in 9 months if you take the relocation. Many times bonuses, relocation payments, etc come with a penalty that you have to pay some or all of it back if you resign before a certain time frame (usually 1 year, sometimes longer). My large, US-based international company recently did massive layoffs that screwed over a lot of people. They also curtailed remote work which seems like a strategy to get people to quit without paying severance. The other risk is that you move back and they lay you off shortly thereafter. Or they do a reorg that changes your role and responsibilities into something you don't like.
posted by emd3737 at 10:09 AM on January 24, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 10:09 AM on January 24, 2024 [6 favorites]
They also curtailed remote work which seems like a strategy to get people to quit without paying severance.
This, yeah. What happens to you if you agree to move back, spend the cost to do so, and then they decide they actually need to lay you off anyhow? Would the severance you'd get in that case be enough to incentivize you to do the move now? What would happen to those RSU payments?
Depending on which company, it could easily be doing contraction-through-RTO. I've had a few friends hit by this recently. Make sure you're protected if you do decide to spend the money and effort on an international move.
posted by nat at 10:16 AM on January 24, 2024 [4 favorites]
This, yeah. What happens to you if you agree to move back, spend the cost to do so, and then they decide they actually need to lay you off anyhow? Would the severance you'd get in that case be enough to incentivize you to do the move now? What would happen to those RSU payments?
Depending on which company, it could easily be doing contraction-through-RTO. I've had a few friends hit by this recently. Make sure you're protected if you do decide to spend the money and effort on an international move.
posted by nat at 10:16 AM on January 24, 2024 [4 favorites]
I don't think there's a bad move here, honestly - you seem like you're in a pretty great position to be able to choose between two options with strong upsides to each.
In your shoes I'd seriously consider going back for nine months to pad out the savings and give myself a really comfortable cushion to then proceed with job-hunting. But that would depend a lot on how much money we're talking about, and also on what your family situation is. You note that being in your current country means being able to spend a lot more time with family, but I'm not sure if that means "I get to see my parents and nieces and nephews more" or "I have young kids at home." And I'd be a lot less likely to take the move if e.g. it meant leaving a partner to solo-parent multiple young children for the better part of a year, or uprooting kids from their schools and friends for a single year.
posted by Stacey at 10:44 AM on January 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
In your shoes I'd seriously consider going back for nine months to pad out the savings and give myself a really comfortable cushion to then proceed with job-hunting. But that would depend a lot on how much money we're talking about, and also on what your family situation is. You note that being in your current country means being able to spend a lot more time with family, but I'm not sure if that means "I get to see my parents and nieces and nephews more" or "I have young kids at home." And I'd be a lot less likely to take the move if e.g. it meant leaving a partner to solo-parent multiple young children for the better part of a year, or uprooting kids from their schools and friends for a single year.
posted by Stacey at 10:44 AM on January 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
Leaving a job for QoL is never a bad thing. Especially if you already have enough runway that you can stretch it out for years if necessary.
But, contrary to what lots of people (including some in the post) want to believe, companies enforcing RTO are not having problems with retention, so don't hold your breath on getting a counter offer. Especially in a situation where foreign governments and their employment laws are involved. As it is, having you leave the company could be saving someone a lot of work. Even if one does come, it's likely only temporary until a local resource comes online and at that point you won't be leaving the company because you are quitting.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:08 AM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
But, contrary to what lots of people (including some in the post) want to believe, companies enforcing RTO are not having problems with retention, so don't hold your breath on getting a counter offer. Especially in a situation where foreign governments and their employment laws are involved. As it is, having you leave the company could be saving someone a lot of work. Even if one does come, it's likely only temporary until a local resource comes online and at that point you won't be leaving the company because you are quitting.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:08 AM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Best answer: But, contrary to what lots of people (including some in the post) want to believe, companies enforcing RTO are not having problems with retention,
This is extremely industry dependent; it's good to consider that both are possibilities but only you know what the market in your industry is all about. (Companies in my industry that insist on RTO are indeed struggling with retention, for a variety of reasons.)
That said, honestly, I'm usually all about that money but fuck these people. They were fine with your setup for that long and now you're supposed to just pull an international move out of your ass because they read something in Forbes? You're not even insisting on working in your pajamas, just in their actual satellite office that they have! It's fucking stupid and they're stupid, and you should stick to your guns.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:28 AM on January 24, 2024 [7 favorites]
This is extremely industry dependent; it's good to consider that both are possibilities but only you know what the market in your industry is all about. (Companies in my industry that insist on RTO are indeed struggling with retention, for a variety of reasons.)
That said, honestly, I'm usually all about that money but fuck these people. They were fine with your setup for that long and now you're supposed to just pull an international move out of your ass because they read something in Forbes? You're not even insisting on working in your pajamas, just in their actual satellite office that they have! It's fucking stupid and they're stupid, and you should stick to your guns.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:28 AM on January 24, 2024 [7 favorites]
Seconding what emd3737 says above about being careful and reading the contract, but it's possible that you come out financially well ahead given the RSUs even if you have to pay a clawback of the subsidized housing and bonus.
You've decided to quit, which is great! So let's pretend you have entirely quit.
Now think about it as a consulting opporunity. Pretend it's a new company. Throw out all the baggage about pride and think "for what they are offering me (RSUs, US COL adjustment, subsidized housing, bonus), minus what I lose (QoL, any money that they will claw back when I leave from bonus or apartment) do I want to take a 9 month overseas consulting job?"
I think that's the core of it; if you'd say yes to that paragraph it's probably only your pride having you not do it in this case.
posted by true at 1:56 PM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
You've decided to quit, which is great! So let's pretend you have entirely quit.
Now think about it as a consulting opporunity. Pretend it's a new company. Throw out all the baggage about pride and think "for what they are offering me (RSUs, US COL adjustment, subsidized housing, bonus), minus what I lose (QoL, any money that they will claw back when I leave from bonus or apartment) do I want to take a 9 month overseas consulting job?"
I think that's the core of it; if you'd say yes to that paragraph it's probably only your pride having you not do it in this case.
posted by true at 1:56 PM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Based on this plus your previous question about expressing your needs and having them met at your workplace, I suggest you might have an interesting situation here where you have grown over time and the relationship with your workplace has been a place where you have exercised a lot of agency during your tenure there.... yet, because you are in the midst of that growth, it is hard for you to see all of it.
You will be exercising agency whether you decide to leave or you decide to reconsider and try to stay. They are both choices. You have achievements to be proud of; when you say that you chose to leave out of pride, what does "pride" mean? Does it mean status consciousness? Spite? Dignity? Maybe reflecting on that could help you decide.
posted by brainwane at 2:05 PM on January 24, 2024 [4 favorites]
You will be exercising agency whether you decide to leave or you decide to reconsider and try to stay. They are both choices. You have achievements to be proud of; when you say that you chose to leave out of pride, what does "pride" mean? Does it mean status consciousness? Spite? Dignity? Maybe reflecting on that could help you decide.
posted by brainwane at 2:05 PM on January 24, 2024 [4 favorites]
This is exactly what FU money is for. You're happier where you are, you're excited about building a life there, you're confident that you can find another position, and you can afford to take some time off and then look around. If somebody else offered you a 9-month position for the same amount as you'll get for going back, would you take it? It doesn't sound like you would. I think you made a good decision and should stick with it. Life is a lot shorter than we think. You have something good and a way to hold onto it. Don't take that for granted.
posted by HotToddy at 3:48 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 3:48 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
If you rejoin the company, do you get your old tenure back? If so, go back! You want them to terminate you!
From what I’ve read, some employers have dithered and taken months to actually terminate after an employee refuses to comply with an RTO order. And when they are terminated, severance may be required as per local laws. You want to be on the payroll while they drag this out, you can probably milk at least one RSU payout, and depending on timing a bonus payout, just by being on payroll. Severance is also money for doing nothing.
posted by shock muppet at 5:09 PM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
From what I’ve read, some employers have dithered and taken months to actually terminate after an employee refuses to comply with an RTO order. And when they are terminated, severance may be required as per local laws. You want to be on the payroll while they drag this out, you can probably milk at least one RSU payout, and depending on timing a bonus payout, just by being on payroll. Severance is also money for doing nothing.
posted by shock muppet at 5:09 PM on January 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Is there a chance you could be laid off prior to the 9 month RSU mark? How painful are those 9 months of lame ducking going to be for you if you know you are leaving? Will you be so checked out you might lose the job anyway thus having lost that time to enjoy your new living situation and gone through two presumably deeply psychically draining moves? I think the thing to think about if you try to walk it back is if you can actually make it the 9 months or if you want to build a life in your home country instead. Is the money worth the loss of the time? Is this really an hr policy intended to impact RTO or is this an underhanded layoff intended to reduce corporate liability with employees at a certain level of vestment.
posted by edbles at 8:11 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by edbles at 8:11 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
Echoing edbles: I have personally found it MISERABLY SOUL SUCKING to keep working at a job once I've decided to quit. It's like staying in a relationship when you know you want to break up/divorce - it eats you up on the inside. Maybe you are not as emotional-driven as I am, but I personally would prefer to just cut ties and be done with it.
In your shoes, I would probably push it as long as I possibly could with the company while remaining (semi)transparent. SO, by mid-February, when they ask, you can say: "I'm still evaluating my options. My strong preference is to stay here but I understand you are still requiring that I relocate back to the US by the end of March. Is that still the requirement?"
And if they push further, you can say, "I'm still looking at my options. I've found a furnished flat service in the US so if I make the move they can have me in a new place ASAP, so now I'm looking what it would take to rent out my current place. But, I'm not decided. It may genuinely be a choice I make in the final week or two."
I would definitely guess that their "March or bust" deadline will be extended until at least April if you finally share you're not moving in mid-March.
posted by samthemander at 11:42 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
In your shoes, I would probably push it as long as I possibly could with the company while remaining (semi)transparent. SO, by mid-February, when they ask, you can say: "I'm still evaluating my options. My strong preference is to stay here but I understand you are still requiring that I relocate back to the US by the end of March. Is that still the requirement?"
And if they push further, you can say, "I'm still looking at my options. I've found a furnished flat service in the US so if I make the move they can have me in a new place ASAP, so now I'm looking what it would take to rent out my current place. But, I'm not decided. It may genuinely be a choice I make in the final week or two."
I would definitely guess that their "March or bust" deadline will be extended until at least April if you finally share you're not moving in mid-March.
posted by samthemander at 11:42 PM on January 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
Why don't you continue to work remotely but spend whatever amount of time in the US required to keep you on the US payroll?
posted by divinitys.mortal.flesh at 7:36 AM on January 25, 2024
posted by divinitys.mortal.flesh at 7:36 AM on January 25, 2024
FYI the poster has already quit. The question is whether to go back on it or no.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:52 AM on January 25, 2024
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:52 AM on January 25, 2024
Are you sure that this isn't just decision remorse. Would you also be second-guessing any decision to stay?
You have inevitably played your hand a bit by quitting. If you want to change your mind, you'll get at most one immediate do-over with this, and possibly not even that. Many employers and managers do not look favourably on someone who quits and then changes their minds.
posted by plonkee at 10:02 AM on January 25, 2024
You have inevitably played your hand a bit by quitting. If you want to change your mind, you'll get at most one immediate do-over with this, and possibly not even that. Many employers and managers do not look favourably on someone who quits and then changes their minds.
posted by plonkee at 10:02 AM on January 25, 2024
Similar situation, return to office mandated but in my case I wasn't happy with my job. Took a pay cut of 30% between that position and the one I have now.
Since you're still young, a 9 month stint would be bearable to make a lot more money. The one regret I have is that I didn't try to transfer to a team that had more favorable working conditions. Is your entire company RTO or are there pockets of you can transfer to? An internal transfer could preserve your RSUs and salary.
posted by just.good.enough at 8:56 AM on January 26, 2024
Since you're still young, a 9 month stint would be bearable to make a lot more money. The one regret I have is that I didn't try to transfer to a team that had more favorable working conditions. Is your entire company RTO or are there pockets of you can transfer to? An internal transfer could preserve your RSUs and salary.
posted by just.good.enough at 8:56 AM on January 26, 2024
Response by poster: Thanks all - I read and carefully considered all of your responses. I really tried to convince myself I could move and stick it out for a few more months, but I just couldn't bring myself to make the call in the end, which I suppose is as a clear an indication as any of where my heart really lies. Plus, 9 months of being gradually sidelined and replaced at work while missing home and feeling like a sell-out doesn't sound like a very good time. Hopefully I don't regret it...
posted by btfreek at 3:25 PM on January 29, 2024
posted by btfreek at 3:25 PM on January 29, 2024
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't really see it as being about stubbornness/principles, just priorities. Sometimes choices between two good options are the hardest ones to make.
posted by mskyle at 8:23 AM on January 24, 2024 [8 favorites]