A plumber messed up my house and now I'm not sure what to do next
January 18, 2024 6:08 PM Subscribe
I need some advice. I have had my first plumber disaster! I feel like I've leveled up as a homeowner. Or at least... I will have leveled up once I get through this. I'm looking for some advice about how to deal with the plumber who screwed my house up, and the insurance company, since I've never filed a claim before.
It all started last Tuesday, when I had a plumber come by to clear my bathtub drain. It's been slow to drain for months now, and I've tried all the home remedies - a snake, drano, baking soda, etc. The drain clears for a short time and then it's back to slow draining again. So I thought -- let me call a profesh.
I called a local and what looked like a well-reviewed biz, since the regular folks I use were busy for a long time. They sent one guy who was super inexperienced. He quoted me $600 - which made my jaw drop. I should have sent him packing right then and there, but instead I haggled a bit, and he gave me a discount, bringing it down to about $500. Still a wildly high estimate to clear a drain (I was expecting maybe $200?). My reasoning was, not to be penny wise and pound foolish. These guys are supposed to be great at what they do. He asked me to sign to authorize the work on his ipad (I did). He got a cable, made an insane racket and a terrible mess, and then told me the drain was clear and showed me by running water through it, then came back to tell me, actually, the pipe is broken.
That's when I ran downstairs to see the kitchen ceiling leaking wastewater.
He spent the next 20 minutes trying to explain to me why it's my fault, my old house's fault, how it's galvanized pipe, this happens all the time in these old houses and I should have known, etc etc. He did not warn me that any of this might happen. I asked him how if this happens so often why he didn't mention it might be a possibility? But then I was like, ok, howabout stopping the blame game and we figure out what to do now? And reader, he did not have good answers, beyond "let me call my supervisor." When he returned after that phone call he kept going on about how this wasn't his fault, and something about payment for the clogged drain which was now clear! I told him, no way am I paying you for breaking my house -- the drain isn't clear it's just GONE! -- and asked him to leave. He wasn't offering any helpful solutions, just stressing us out.
After this, his supervisor called me asking why I wasn't going to pay. He kept pushing me to agree to... something? I don't know what. I *think* what he was supposed to say was: "this happens all the time, we will fix it and this is how that works and what it usually costs." But he didn't, he just kept asking to "work something out," and eventually I just told them I couldn't believe they were trying to get me to pay them now that my house is leaking and a mess, and left it at that.
My friends suggested I call my homeowner's insurance, which I did. The very friendly man there told me he would open a claim as he had to, but he would not file one yet. Then he gave me some free advice which I was grateful for -- get another plumber to look at it, take lots of pictures, get the insurance info of the plumbers who messed your house up -- etc.
After that, I called the other plumbers whom I trust. They have fixed things in my old house beautifully. I also called my G.C. They both actually quoted me for the work to fix it - about $2000 for the day to open up the kitchen ceiling, fix it all, etc. The second plumber confirmed that the broken pipe is STILL CLOGGED. My G.C. will fix the ceiling after. I'm all scheduled up with them but it's a bit of a wait since everybody's pipes are freezing this winter.
The next day, an insurance adjustor called me, asked me some questions, and I was vague as I'm still not sure what the exact next steps are. Then he said "ok, your claim is all filed!"
Now I have two things that I would like to just go away, and I'm not sure if/how I can make them:
1.) An insurance adjustor calling me regularly because he wants to come out and assess the damage. For the cost to fix the bathtub and the ceiling, I think I'd rather just not have the insurance company pay for it. But is it too late now that a claim is filed? I have no idea how to move ahead here without making my problems worse and would love some advice. Is my rate going to go up now that I've filed a claim, even if I don't actually get any money?
2.) The original plumber hounding me for payment of $500. They sent me an invoice which SAYS that he was not able to clear the drain and that the pipe broke. My signature is under a section that says I have confirmed the work is completed (I did not sign for that) and my signature is missing from the section where I authorized the work. Do I really have to pay them for this?! I am afraid to talk to them at all at this point as they are quite nasty.
It all started last Tuesday, when I had a plumber come by to clear my bathtub drain. It's been slow to drain for months now, and I've tried all the home remedies - a snake, drano, baking soda, etc. The drain clears for a short time and then it's back to slow draining again. So I thought -- let me call a profesh.
I called a local and what looked like a well-reviewed biz, since the regular folks I use were busy for a long time. They sent one guy who was super inexperienced. He quoted me $600 - which made my jaw drop. I should have sent him packing right then and there, but instead I haggled a bit, and he gave me a discount, bringing it down to about $500. Still a wildly high estimate to clear a drain (I was expecting maybe $200?). My reasoning was, not to be penny wise and pound foolish. These guys are supposed to be great at what they do. He asked me to sign to authorize the work on his ipad (I did). He got a cable, made an insane racket and a terrible mess, and then told me the drain was clear and showed me by running water through it, then came back to tell me, actually, the pipe is broken.
That's when I ran downstairs to see the kitchen ceiling leaking wastewater.
He spent the next 20 minutes trying to explain to me why it's my fault, my old house's fault, how it's galvanized pipe, this happens all the time in these old houses and I should have known, etc etc. He did not warn me that any of this might happen. I asked him how if this happens so often why he didn't mention it might be a possibility? But then I was like, ok, howabout stopping the blame game and we figure out what to do now? And reader, he did not have good answers, beyond "let me call my supervisor." When he returned after that phone call he kept going on about how this wasn't his fault, and something about payment for the clogged drain which was now clear! I told him, no way am I paying you for breaking my house -- the drain isn't clear it's just GONE! -- and asked him to leave. He wasn't offering any helpful solutions, just stressing us out.
After this, his supervisor called me asking why I wasn't going to pay. He kept pushing me to agree to... something? I don't know what. I *think* what he was supposed to say was: "this happens all the time, we will fix it and this is how that works and what it usually costs." But he didn't, he just kept asking to "work something out," and eventually I just told them I couldn't believe they were trying to get me to pay them now that my house is leaking and a mess, and left it at that.
My friends suggested I call my homeowner's insurance, which I did. The very friendly man there told me he would open a claim as he had to, but he would not file one yet. Then he gave me some free advice which I was grateful for -- get another plumber to look at it, take lots of pictures, get the insurance info of the plumbers who messed your house up -- etc.
After that, I called the other plumbers whom I trust. They have fixed things in my old house beautifully. I also called my G.C. They both actually quoted me for the work to fix it - about $2000 for the day to open up the kitchen ceiling, fix it all, etc. The second plumber confirmed that the broken pipe is STILL CLOGGED. My G.C. will fix the ceiling after. I'm all scheduled up with them but it's a bit of a wait since everybody's pipes are freezing this winter.
The next day, an insurance adjustor called me, asked me some questions, and I was vague as I'm still not sure what the exact next steps are. Then he said "ok, your claim is all filed!"
Now I have two things that I would like to just go away, and I'm not sure if/how I can make them:
1.) An insurance adjustor calling me regularly because he wants to come out and assess the damage. For the cost to fix the bathtub and the ceiling, I think I'd rather just not have the insurance company pay for it. But is it too late now that a claim is filed? I have no idea how to move ahead here without making my problems worse and would love some advice. Is my rate going to go up now that I've filed a claim, even if I don't actually get any money?
2.) The original plumber hounding me for payment of $500. They sent me an invoice which SAYS that he was not able to clear the drain and that the pipe broke. My signature is under a section that says I have confirmed the work is completed (I did not sign for that) and my signature is missing from the section where I authorized the work. Do I really have to pay them for this?! I am afraid to talk to them at all at this point as they are quite nasty.
1) I think it is too late, yes. That was my experience. They wouldn't cancel it. But it didn't make our rate go up as far as I could tell. If it does, could you just change companies?
2) This one is tricky because it involves dealing with these bad people, which means they aren't rational. What they can do, at least in California, is put a mechanics' lien on your house. That is, if they're licensed. The lien then messes up things like your attempt to refinance or sell until it's cleared. Getting it cleared in our experience takes a lawyer.
Personally, I would send them a letter stating that the drain is not cleared and thus that the work is not complete, and I would formally ask for the $2k in damages, then maybe even file in small claims court against them ASAP. I don't know if that would protect you from a mechanics' lien but it might give you leverage toward a "I pay you nothing, you pay me nothing" deal. (I wouldn't count on it, though, if they're anything like the contractors we dealt with.)
The point above about potentially trying to get the insurance company to field the bad plumbers isn't a bad idea, depending on your coverage. They have lawyers and could probably make them go away promptly, and they should be aware.
The other thing to do is to potentially involve the plumbers' bond company. You can look up the contractor on the state license website and find out their bond company. You might be able to directly make a claim against the bond... I'm not exactly sure how that works, can you collect directly, do you need to win in court first (probably, since otherwise how does the bond company ascertain that they owe you money), do you need to notice them about the court action, etc. The reason to read up on all of this is that if you end up in a situation where they owe you money, they will say they don't have any money, but the bond company does. And even if you don't want to go after them for money, if they put on a mechanics' lien and you have to hire a lawyer to get it off, you can ask for money to cover those costs (and at that point you'll have found a lawyer who can easily add in that paragraph), so it's worth not missing the boat on collecting from the bond.
posted by slidell at 7:28 PM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
2) This one is tricky because it involves dealing with these bad people, which means they aren't rational. What they can do, at least in California, is put a mechanics' lien on your house. That is, if they're licensed. The lien then messes up things like your attempt to refinance or sell until it's cleared. Getting it cleared in our experience takes a lawyer.
Personally, I would send them a letter stating that the drain is not cleared and thus that the work is not complete, and I would formally ask for the $2k in damages, then maybe even file in small claims court against them ASAP. I don't know if that would protect you from a mechanics' lien but it might give you leverage toward a "I pay you nothing, you pay me nothing" deal. (I wouldn't count on it, though, if they're anything like the contractors we dealt with.)
The point above about potentially trying to get the insurance company to field the bad plumbers isn't a bad idea, depending on your coverage. They have lawyers and could probably make them go away promptly, and they should be aware.
The other thing to do is to potentially involve the plumbers' bond company. You can look up the contractor on the state license website and find out their bond company. You might be able to directly make a claim against the bond... I'm not exactly sure how that works, can you collect directly, do you need to win in court first (probably, since otherwise how does the bond company ascertain that they owe you money), do you need to notice them about the court action, etc. The reason to read up on all of this is that if you end up in a situation where they owe you money, they will say they don't have any money, but the bond company does. And even if you don't want to go after them for money, if they put on a mechanics' lien and you have to hire a lawyer to get it off, you can ask for money to cover those costs (and at that point you'll have found a lawyer who can easily add in that paragraph), so it's worth not missing the boat on collecting from the bond.
posted by slidell at 7:28 PM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
Yes insurance.
Typically in this situation you would need to pay the original plumber's bill if they insisted on it. Many would waive the bill for goodwill, I suppose, but when you agreed to the service you agreed to *pay* for the service. Since the service was rendered (I know it doesn't feel like it, but it was), you owe the money. In this situation I would probably not try to get out of paying and instead just do what I could to discourage others from using the company.
posted by doomsey at 7:59 PM on January 18, 2024
Typically in this situation you would need to pay the original plumber's bill if they insisted on it. Many would waive the bill for goodwill, I suppose, but when you agreed to the service you agreed to *pay* for the service. Since the service was rendered (I know it doesn't feel like it, but it was), you owe the money. In this situation I would probably not try to get out of paying and instead just do what I could to discourage others from using the company.
posted by doomsey at 7:59 PM on January 18, 2024
Also: Your insurance will cover damage, opening and closing walls, and all that.
You will have to pay for new piping yourself. This will be more $$$ to plumbers, hopefully this time one you don't hate.
posted by doomsey at 8:02 PM on January 18, 2024
You will have to pay for new piping yourself. This will be more $$$ to plumbers, hopefully this time one you don't hate.
posted by doomsey at 8:02 PM on January 18, 2024
Be careful about the advice you're getting here about making a home insurance claim. It is usually something you want to reserve for catastrophic claims. Once you make a claim it can be more difficult and more expensive to get a new policy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:17 PM on January 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:17 PM on January 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
Since the service was rendered (I know it doesn't feel like it, but it was), you owe the money.
No, the service (unblocking the drain) was not rendered. A plumber attended, and time was spent on what sounds like a ham-fisted attempt to render the service, but that attempt was conducted without due care and attention because the operator was inexperienced and the tools they used inappropriate to the age and condition of the house, and not only was the home damaged as a result but the drain remained blocked.
I have never charged money for plumbing but I have charged money to fix personal computers, and on the those rare occasions where I failed to fix what I said I'd be able to, I did not charge for my time. That just seems like basic professional ethics to me.
The subsequent rounds of DARVO from the plumbers (and I hesitate to use that word, it's insulting to plumbers) are just shit icing on a shit cake.
posted by flabdablet at 10:35 PM on January 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
No, the service (unblocking the drain) was not rendered. A plumber attended, and time was spent on what sounds like a ham-fisted attempt to render the service, but that attempt was conducted without due care and attention because the operator was inexperienced and the tools they used inappropriate to the age and condition of the house, and not only was the home damaged as a result but the drain remained blocked.
I have never charged money for plumbing but I have charged money to fix personal computers, and on the those rare occasions where I failed to fix what I said I'd be able to, I did not charge for my time. That just seems like basic professional ethics to me.
The subsequent rounds of DARVO from the plumbers (and I hesitate to use that word, it's insulting to plumbers) are just shit icing on a shit cake.
posted by flabdablet at 10:35 PM on January 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
You should probably read the rest of the agreement you signed just to see what else it says... Hopefully nothing else bad.
posted by slidell at 12:33 AM on January 19, 2024
posted by slidell at 12:33 AM on January 19, 2024
If you haven't already you can try posting this question on the subReddit r/insurance. A lot of people who work for insurance companies respond to questions like this there.
posted by newpotato at 3:10 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by newpotato at 3:10 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
I’m on the plumber’s side. Snaking a drain will not damage a healthy pipe. Your pipes were either weakened by age or the who-knows-what mixture of chemicals you dumped down the drain trying to clear the blockage.
posted by Huggiesbear at 3:37 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Huggiesbear at 3:37 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
As a homeowner who has filed a claim for $6k of storm damage, I would hesitate to file a claim over $2k. My rates DID go up after my claim. I've *heard* that after 2 claims in a certain time period, an insurance company will just drop you. They'll pay out the second claim but then decline to renew the policy after that. My current view is that home insurance is more for catastrophic loss.
I'm not saying you shouldn't go through with the claim, but definitely get some informed advice from folks who work in home insurance.
Also--- shouldn't the original plumber's liability insurance cover this?
posted by hovey at 3:44 AM on January 19, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying you shouldn't go through with the claim, but definitely get some informed advice from folks who work in home insurance.
Also--- shouldn't the original plumber's liability insurance cover this?
posted by hovey at 3:44 AM on January 19, 2024 [2 favorites]
Snaking a drain will not damage a healthy pipe.
This is why experts exist and why a supposed expert was called. Why is the OP expected to know that the method that the plumber chose won't work and will actually cause damage? It's not your fault if the expert you hire turns out to be incompetent.
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:15 AM on January 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
This is why experts exist and why a supposed expert was called. Why is the OP expected to know that the method that the plumber chose won't work and will actually cause damage? It's not your fault if the expert you hire turns out to be incompetent.
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:15 AM on January 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
Not legal advice. But normally speaking, if your insurer pays out the claim, your legal claim against the plumber for negligence would be subrogated and the insurance company could pursue the claim against the plumber. Presuming the plumber is insured, the two insurers would chat and agree to something.
If you don't pursue the insurance claim, normally speaking you would keep the claim against the plumber. If you were to pursue it, the plumbers insurer would likely respond to defend the claim under their third party liability insurance coverage. They might settle with you to get rid of it. It might be possible to call them yourself and do it without filing anything, though it's always possible they might tell you it's your fault and to go pound sand. But even if it was partially the plumbers fault and partially yours, the plumber would typically still owe you something, so the insurance company might be inclined to give you something.
Without your GC having fixed it, you still don't know how much it will cost. But if you continue with the insurance claim in the mean time, they have rights under your policy which you can't ignore (can't say what those are for sure) and will want to remain involved.
If you did nothing, you would pay obviously. But if you abandon the claim now, you would usually be on the hook if it turns out to be worse than you think. If you are comfortable with this and the money isn't a big deal to you, it's a cost benefit between how your insurer will take the claim into account in your future coverage.
Your insurance company would not normally be involved in contractual claims by your plumber against you for payment, though they might be able to help in some way by communicating with the plumber or their insurer. Those are separate - it's technically possible you could owe them for payment while they also owe you for negligence. But perhaps unlikely, given they didn't complete the work (again, not legal advice and I can't say for certain if you owe them). If you decide you don't want to pay them, you might want to clearly articulate why in writing. If you also want to try to get them or their insurer to cover the damage, you might want to also deal with that in the same written communication.
iAAL, but not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:22 AM on January 19, 2024 [4 favorites]
If you don't pursue the insurance claim, normally speaking you would keep the claim against the plumber. If you were to pursue it, the plumbers insurer would likely respond to defend the claim under their third party liability insurance coverage. They might settle with you to get rid of it. It might be possible to call them yourself and do it without filing anything, though it's always possible they might tell you it's your fault and to go pound sand. But even if it was partially the plumbers fault and partially yours, the plumber would typically still owe you something, so the insurance company might be inclined to give you something.
Without your GC having fixed it, you still don't know how much it will cost. But if you continue with the insurance claim in the mean time, they have rights under your policy which you can't ignore (can't say what those are for sure) and will want to remain involved.
If you did nothing, you would pay obviously. But if you abandon the claim now, you would usually be on the hook if it turns out to be worse than you think. If you are comfortable with this and the money isn't a big deal to you, it's a cost benefit between how your insurer will take the claim into account in your future coverage.
Your insurance company would not normally be involved in contractual claims by your plumber against you for payment, though they might be able to help in some way by communicating with the plumber or their insurer. Those are separate - it's technically possible you could owe them for payment while they also owe you for negligence. But perhaps unlikely, given they didn't complete the work (again, not legal advice and I can't say for certain if you owe them). If you decide you don't want to pay them, you might want to clearly articulate why in writing. If you also want to try to get them or their insurer to cover the damage, you might want to also deal with that in the same written communication.
iAAL, but not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:22 AM on January 19, 2024 [4 favorites]
I have never charged money for plumbing but I have charged money to fix personal computers, and on the those rare occasions where I failed to fix what I said I'd be able to, I did not charge for my time. That just seems like basic professional ethics to me.
Just to be clear, I completely agree.
BUT: This is goodwill. It's the right thing to do, but it's not required. Legally they still have a claim.
posted by doomsey at 9:37 AM on January 19, 2024
Just to be clear, I completely agree.
BUT: This is goodwill. It's the right thing to do, but it's not required. Legally they still have a claim.
posted by doomsey at 9:37 AM on January 19, 2024
Just to add - no one here can tell you for sure if you are contractually obliged to pay the plumber.
It depends on what written documents say, what was discussed, what they did, what the law is in your jurisdiction as far as implied terms and other remedies (e.g. in some places this could be considered a fundamental breach excusing you from paying, in others this doesn't exist), whether there was a limitation of liability in the contract (here seems likely mixed oral and written), whether payment was contingent on fixing the problem or just spending the hours, whether you might still have to pay part for some reason, whether what it says in writing would be interpreted as you would expect or is enforceable, any conduct afterwards concerning agreements to pay or not, etc etc etc.
We might be able to speculate, and you may or may not want to put weight on that. But we cannot be confident.
Similarly, no one here can tell you for sure what remedies the plumber might have if you do not pay (e.g. the lien mentioned above), and whether they're worth the risk.
Yes, this is a small amount of money, but the same uncertainty applies. There's a surprising number of unequivocal answers here in various directions. Take that as a sign that it's not that clear and we don't have enough information.
posted by lookoutbelow at 9:57 AM on January 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
It depends on what written documents say, what was discussed, what they did, what the law is in your jurisdiction as far as implied terms and other remedies (e.g. in some places this could be considered a fundamental breach excusing you from paying, in others this doesn't exist), whether there was a limitation of liability in the contract (here seems likely mixed oral and written), whether payment was contingent on fixing the problem or just spending the hours, whether you might still have to pay part for some reason, whether what it says in writing would be interpreted as you would expect or is enforceable, any conduct afterwards concerning agreements to pay or not, etc etc etc.
We might be able to speculate, and you may or may not want to put weight on that. But we cannot be confident.
Similarly, no one here can tell you for sure what remedies the plumber might have if you do not pay (e.g. the lien mentioned above), and whether they're worth the risk.
Yes, this is a small amount of money, but the same uncertainty applies. There's a surprising number of unequivocal answers here in various directions. Take that as a sign that it's not that clear and we don't have enough information.
posted by lookoutbelow at 9:57 AM on January 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
IANAL (yet) and this is not legal advice, but here are my thoughts:
First, the company either was one of the major ones like Roto-Rooter or something that just clears drains all day every day, (and consequentially, hires a lot of really inexperienced people to have them do the largely very easy work of cable snaking) or however you described it over the phone, the company didn't take it seriously that you had actually seriously tried to snake the drain and thought it would be an easy job, and sent someone inexperienced. This is more likely to be the case if you are AFAB or audibly femme.
This is evidenced by the fact that when you got there, the guy just started in despite the age of the house and consequentially the pipes being anticipated to be old. My mother has a house with old pipes; when she had a similar problem, they sent a camera down to see what was going on before they used serious equipment and heavy force. My guess is that the guy met resistance and Got More Vigorous with the cable, which he was too inexperienced to know would be a problem with old pipes. Then, they broke, and he was like "Aha! No more resistance! I've fixed the problem!" which is why he told you the drain was fixed, and tried to 'prove' it by running water through it.
lookoutbelow is correct on the legal situation; there are a number of factors governing whether you still have to pay for what certainly appears to be grossly negligent work that has harmed you fairly significantly.
However, if this place is well reviewed on whatever site you initially found confidence in them from, from a practical side of things, I have found that leaving a completely accurate extremely bad review will often get things escalated to a higher-up in the company who will create a 'you take down your review, and we won't ask for payment anymore' offer.
posted by corb at 4:48 AM on January 20, 2024 [2 favorites]
First, the company either was one of the major ones like Roto-Rooter or something that just clears drains all day every day, (and consequentially, hires a lot of really inexperienced people to have them do the largely very easy work of cable snaking) or however you described it over the phone, the company didn't take it seriously that you had actually seriously tried to snake the drain and thought it would be an easy job, and sent someone inexperienced. This is more likely to be the case if you are AFAB or audibly femme.
This is evidenced by the fact that when you got there, the guy just started in despite the age of the house and consequentially the pipes being anticipated to be old. My mother has a house with old pipes; when she had a similar problem, they sent a camera down to see what was going on before they used serious equipment and heavy force. My guess is that the guy met resistance and Got More Vigorous with the cable, which he was too inexperienced to know would be a problem with old pipes. Then, they broke, and he was like "Aha! No more resistance! I've fixed the problem!" which is why he told you the drain was fixed, and tried to 'prove' it by running water through it.
lookoutbelow is correct on the legal situation; there are a number of factors governing whether you still have to pay for what certainly appears to be grossly negligent work that has harmed you fairly significantly.
However, if this place is well reviewed on whatever site you initially found confidence in them from, from a practical side of things, I have found that leaving a completely accurate extremely bad review will often get things escalated to a higher-up in the company who will create a 'you take down your review, and we won't ask for payment anymore' offer.
posted by corb at 4:48 AM on January 20, 2024 [2 favorites]
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As a homeowner I would have no hesitation in having my home insurer cover a $2000+ disaster. That's what insurance is there for.
I'd also let my insurer know that I was being harassed by the cowboys responsible for the disaster they're about to pay for, and forward all current and future cowboy correspondence to my insurer, with a cover letter on each such forward stating that this is harassment from the original house ruiners and not an amount I'm asking my insurer to make good.
But if you're determined to deal with this entirely on your own for the sake of preserving your no-claim bonus, all you should need to do is call your insurer, tell them so, and have them cancel the claim. I doubt they'll give you any grief about that. If they do, take your insurance business elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 6:47 PM on January 18, 2024 [7 favorites]