Are stairs without nosing “dangerous?”
December 20, 2023 5:35 PM Subscribe
Are ‘modern/danish” stairs without nosing dangerous on steep residential staircases?
I’ve just finished putting in white oak hardwood floors in my entire upstairs. I love them, they’re beautiful ! I was back on forth on if I should carry the same wood down the enclosed staircase or repaint the exiting painted stairs. I do think the stairs would look really nice in the wood but am questioning what’s practical vs what is possible or aesthetically to my taste.
I like very clean, modern wood staircases with no nosing like this. However, my current treads (created in the 1920s) are only 9.5” deep. I’m not too worried about code since these are old stairs, but current code says minimum 10” deep and without a nose treads should be 11” deep. It’s not possible mathematically to have deeper than 9.5” treads given the height and space the stairs have to traverse. The stairs are in a fully enclosed stairway that are open up top and end on the ground floor with a door into the kitchen. The current stairs only have one inch of space by the door, so no room to make the stairs deeper. Turning the stairs would be a massive, house-changing project that I do not want to undertake for budgetary and aesthetic reasons (keeping vintage downstairs and modern upstairs).
I’ve talked with the carpenter and we’ve come up with three options.
Is nosing that important? Am I crazy to have shallow treads just because I like a style I don’t have room for? Are there any ideas you’ve seen done to achieve this look? What implications am I not considering?
I’ve just finished putting in white oak hardwood floors in my entire upstairs. I love them, they’re beautiful ! I was back on forth on if I should carry the same wood down the enclosed staircase or repaint the exiting painted stairs. I do think the stairs would look really nice in the wood but am questioning what’s practical vs what is possible or aesthetically to my taste.
I like very clean, modern wood staircases with no nosing like this. However, my current treads (created in the 1920s) are only 9.5” deep. I’m not too worried about code since these are old stairs, but current code says minimum 10” deep and without a nose treads should be 11” deep. It’s not possible mathematically to have deeper than 9.5” treads given the height and space the stairs have to traverse. The stairs are in a fully enclosed stairway that are open up top and end on the ground floor with a door into the kitchen. The current stairs only have one inch of space by the door, so no room to make the stairs deeper. Turning the stairs would be a massive, house-changing project that I do not want to undertake for budgetary and aesthetic reasons (keeping vintage downstairs and modern upstairs).
I’ve talked with the carpenter and we’ve come up with three options.
- Use the extra pre-finished flooring on order (same exact boards as my flooring) to build out the stairs in a square shape (2 planks per step) which leaves us 8.5” deep treads. This would match the most and be the least cost/labor.
- Use solid oak planks on top of existing stairs and create flush square shape with solid oak risers, very much like the above photo. My floors are pre-finished so this would need to be sanded, stained, etc. to try to get close. That will involve more cost and will also be 8.5” deep treads. I believe the bottom stair would be 1” taller and top most stair .25” taller than the other stairs.
- Same as #2 but with a square nosing. Use the same solid oak boards on top of current stairs but give it a nose to make it 9.5” which would essentially be what’s there but oak, not old paint. I believe in order to have a nose I’d have to have a solid board for stability. Kind of this look.
Is nosing that important? Am I crazy to have shallow treads just because I like a style I don’t have room for? Are there any ideas you’ve seen done to achieve this look? What implications am I not considering?
Best answer: I think it's legitimately dangerous to have no nosing, and I have a higher than normal tolerance for sketchy stairs. If you were rebuilding the stair from scratch you might be able to angle the riser to create a nosing, not sure if that meets US code.
Can you remove the existing treads and replace them with your preferred material in the same thickness? Avoid layering over them, it will throw off the top and bottom riser heights, and that's a bad tripping hazard.
posted by sepviva at 6:19 PM on December 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can you remove the existing treads and replace them with your preferred material in the same thickness? Avoid layering over them, it will throw off the top and bottom riser heights, and that's a bad tripping hazard.
posted by sepviva at 6:19 PM on December 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
8.5” is so so shallow. 9.5” is already short. Keep the nosing so you can keep 9.5”.
You could tack in some 1” boards on a few steps to shorten the tread to 8.5”/fill in the space under the nose. To see how it feels.
posted by amaire at 6:25 PM on December 20, 2023
You could tack in some 1” boards on a few steps to shorten the tread to 8.5”/fill in the space under the nose. To see how it feels.
posted by amaire at 6:25 PM on December 20, 2023
Best answer: I believe the bottom stair would be 1” taller and top most stair .25” taller than the other stairs.
It's surprising how small stair irregularities need to be to create a trip/fall hazard. I wouldn't do this. You'll get used to it but visitors won't be expecting that irregularity.
Personally I think all the options you outline aren't great for safety reasons. Either you will shrink the steps/remove nosing, or you'll create height irregularities. Either rebuild the stairs with new material (thereby keeping existing dimensions and height regularity), or find a paint option that comes close enough for you to be happy. But don't spend money to make things more dangerous.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:49 PM on December 20, 2023 [25 favorites]
It's surprising how small stair irregularities need to be to create a trip/fall hazard. I wouldn't do this. You'll get used to it but visitors won't be expecting that irregularity.
Personally I think all the options you outline aren't great for safety reasons. Either you will shrink the steps/remove nosing, or you'll create height irregularities. Either rebuild the stairs with new material (thereby keeping existing dimensions and height regularity), or find a paint option that comes close enough for you to be happy. But don't spend money to make things more dangerous.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:49 PM on December 20, 2023 [25 favorites]
Am I crazy to have shallow treads just because I like a style I don’t have room for?
Yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:53 PM on December 20, 2023 [41 favorites]
Yes.
posted by flabdablet at 6:53 PM on December 20, 2023 [41 favorites]
Spend the not inconsiderable money new oak stairs would cost, and find someone who specializes in false graining. Or if you're pretty handy, try it yourself. You can't admire your new stairs from a hospital bed.
posted by kate4914 at 6:59 PM on December 20, 2023
posted by kate4914 at 6:59 PM on December 20, 2023
Are you sure you're looking at the right code? It might have changed recently, but in residences, you used to be able to have a 9" tread and 8" riser as your steepest possible stair, which is different from what's allowed for commercial. And that's pretty steep! But code also dictates that stairs can't really deviate from each other in size over the length of a run.
posted by LionIndex at 7:36 PM on December 20, 2023
posted by LionIndex at 7:36 PM on December 20, 2023
Best answer: Okay, this is gonna sound stupid, but: measure the length of your foot. Is it longer than or close to 8.5 inches? If so, obviously, a deeper stair is your friend. One barely mis-placed step (either barefoot or in slippery-soled shoes) on a stair that's only about the same length as your foot, and you're in for a world of hurt.
One inch doesn't make things automatically 100% safer, but, especially as you're planning on aging in place in this home, one inch also helps make it safer in general. Don't do anything now that will make things harder for you now+20, especially just for the sake of style. Styles - and people's thoughts about styles - change over the years; in 20 years you might look at the no-nose aesthetic and be like WHAT WAS I THINKING. My vote is for your option 3.
posted by pdb at 8:11 PM on December 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
One inch doesn't make things automatically 100% safer, but, especially as you're planning on aging in place in this home, one inch also helps make it safer in general. Don't do anything now that will make things harder for you now+20, especially just for the sake of style. Styles - and people's thoughts about styles - change over the years; in 20 years you might look at the no-nose aesthetic and be like WHAT WAS I THINKING. My vote is for your option 3.
posted by pdb at 8:11 PM on December 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you do #2 or #3 someone will get hurt and you will feel horrible. Pick a new paint color.
I lived in a house where new subfloorong and flooring had been laid across kitchen, which was where the basement stairs met the first floor. In the process of adding flooring, the basement stairs’ top stair became 1/2” higher than the rest.
At least once a week someone would trip on the top stair, fall face-first, and toss whatever they were carrying across the kitchen. You’d think that residents of the house would get used to that step, but we never did.
Sure, it’s kind of funny to walk into the kitchen and see underwear burning on the stove and melting into your dinner while your housemate holds their bruised shin, but its’s also a huge hazard.
As for option #1, you’d be choosing a stair a whole big toe shorter than the average male foot (10.5”). Do you really want to make something like 1 in 3 people go down your stairs sideways?
posted by Headfullofair at 8:37 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I lived in a house where new subfloorong and flooring had been laid across kitchen, which was where the basement stairs met the first floor. In the process of adding flooring, the basement stairs’ top stair became 1/2” higher than the rest.
At least once a week someone would trip on the top stair, fall face-first, and toss whatever they were carrying across the kitchen. You’d think that residents of the house would get used to that step, but we never did.
Sure, it’s kind of funny to walk into the kitchen and see underwear burning on the stove and melting into your dinner while your housemate holds their bruised shin, but its’s also a huge hazard.
As for option #1, you’d be choosing a stair a whole big toe shorter than the average male foot (10.5”). Do you really want to make something like 1 in 3 people go down your stairs sideways?
posted by Headfullofair at 8:37 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I'm 49. I recently added handrail to my house's main steps. I thought it was for my older friends, but it's SO nice to have the added steadiness every day, especially early when I make the first trip down. Don't do anything that makes your stairs worse at doing their job of being stairs. Those look strong and straight and even. Just leave them alone. Maybe add some traction?
posted by fritley at 8:46 PM on December 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by fritley at 8:46 PM on December 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I live in a house with steep narrow old stairs from approx 1910 and we are budgeting to fully rearrange the entire floor plan of this lovely old place almost entirely because of the staircases. The goal is to age in place here and it’s already been a decade of close calls, aching knees, and one truly scary stair tumbling event. My parents don’t stay here when they come to visit because getting to the guest room is so hard for my mom. We are in our early 40s and able bodied. I would say please don’t compromise functionality for aesthetics when it comes to stairs.
posted by Mizu at 9:04 PM on December 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 9:04 PM on December 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Optimize for safety and then figure out how to make it look nice, not the other way around. Stairs are always going to be a place where people might get hurt, potentially quite badly, in your home. Don’t do anything that’s going to make them less safe than they could be, such as not having nosing or not having a handrail.
You have an opportunity to make your home better and safer for your future self. Over the next 20 years, you will experience at least some kind of disabling condition, such as a bad injury, nerve damage, arthritis, etc. It's going to be hard enough without, e.g., setting back your recovery because you tripped and re-injured yourself.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:40 PM on December 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
You have an opportunity to make your home better and safer for your future self. Over the next 20 years, you will experience at least some kind of disabling condition, such as a bad injury, nerve damage, arthritis, etc. It's going to be hard enough without, e.g., setting back your recovery because you tripped and re-injured yourself.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:40 PM on December 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
What is the step/riser height?
I met an accident specialist once who said even 2mm height variation was enough to cause accidents, so I'm VERY cautious about achieving constant riser heights when I design stairs. Here's a video [annoying silly music] of a tiny step height variation tripping about every one in ten people (from NY I think) - there'll be some fractures and abrasions from that.
Our (NZ) main building code has a tread projection control (nosing or inward slanting riser) of >15mm, & 25mm maximum. While I've seen stairs without (nosing or inward slanting riser) they are very uncomfortable and even worse with a shallow tread.
When I have a VERY tight space I slope the tread ever so slightly (within code) and can often remove a riser and enable a slightly deeper tread.
posted by unearthed at 10:12 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I met an accident specialist once who said even 2mm height variation was enough to cause accidents, so I'm VERY cautious about achieving constant riser heights when I design stairs. Here's a video [annoying silly music] of a tiny step height variation tripping about every one in ten people (from NY I think) - there'll be some fractures and abrasions from that.
Our (NZ) main building code has a tread projection control (nosing or inward slanting riser) of >15mm, & 25mm maximum. While I've seen stairs without (nosing or inward slanting riser) they are very uncomfortable and even worse with a shallow tread.
When I have a VERY tight space I slope the tread ever so slightly (within code) and can often remove a riser and enable a slightly deeper tread.
posted by unearthed at 10:12 PM on December 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I know someone who fell down a flight of stairs that were
new stairs
very beautiful stairs
part of a house that had won an architect's award
they had to have a steel pin put in their shoulder, and they were extremely lucky that they weren't killed.
Don't make your stairs unsafe to make them pretty
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:31 AM on December 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
new stairs
very beautiful stairs
part of a house that had won an architect's award
they had to have a steel pin put in their shoulder, and they were extremely lucky that they weren't killed.
Don't make your stairs unsafe to make them pretty
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:31 AM on December 21, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: What is under the paint on the stairs? Have you removed a patch of the paint to check?
It's possible there is some really gorgeous wood under there. Really nice old growth wood with pretty grain was far more abundant in the 1920s than it is now and people used it for all sorts of everyday things including ordinary sorts of staircases in ordinary sorts of houses. I would not personally cover this staircase with anything-- not even another coat of paint-- without checking first to see what it looks like underneath that century of paint layers by stripping a small patch. For all you know, those stairs are already made of some kind of wood that coordinates with and/or is prettier than your new flooring.
Of course, given the age of your house, at least a few of those old paint layers probably contain lead, so if do you decide to strip all of the stairs, you'll need to take proper precautions to dispose of the stripped paint and prevent paint particles from getting scattered around your house. Your carpenter may already have the tools and experience to do it safely, or be able to refer you to someone who can do it or give you instructions on how to DIY.
(In my previous house, which was a no-frills suburban ranch built for auto factory workers in the 1950s, I took about 6 layers of poorly done paint off the kitchen cabinets to reveal red oak with a grain that would make a 21st century carpenter weep tears of unbridled joy. I refinished it in Waterlox and angels sang. I swear I added $10,000 of value to that house just by undoing something previous occupants had done.)
posted by BlueJae at 5:43 AM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's possible there is some really gorgeous wood under there. Really nice old growth wood with pretty grain was far more abundant in the 1920s than it is now and people used it for all sorts of everyday things including ordinary sorts of staircases in ordinary sorts of houses. I would not personally cover this staircase with anything-- not even another coat of paint-- without checking first to see what it looks like underneath that century of paint layers by stripping a small patch. For all you know, those stairs are already made of some kind of wood that coordinates with and/or is prettier than your new flooring.
Of course, given the age of your house, at least a few of those old paint layers probably contain lead, so if do you decide to strip all of the stairs, you'll need to take proper precautions to dispose of the stripped paint and prevent paint particles from getting scattered around your house. Your carpenter may already have the tools and experience to do it safely, or be able to refer you to someone who can do it or give you instructions on how to DIY.
(In my previous house, which was a no-frills suburban ranch built for auto factory workers in the 1950s, I took about 6 layers of poorly done paint off the kitchen cabinets to reveal red oak with a grain that would make a 21st century carpenter weep tears of unbridled joy. I refinished it in Waterlox and angels sang. I swear I added $10,000 of value to that house just by undoing something previous occupants had done.)
posted by BlueJae at 5:43 AM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
So these stairs are enclosed, behind a door at the bottom and open at the top. They're only visible if you're on them, plus maybe a little bit at the top.
Making them more dangerous for the very limited visual benefit is a complete non-starter.
Spending a bunch of money for the very limited visual benefit would be a non-starter for me, your priorities are different. I'd opt for a less expensive cosmetic procedure.
Making them more dangerous and spending a lot of money to do it for a very limited visual benefit is an instant "aw hell no".
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 6:00 AM on December 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Making them more dangerous for the very limited visual benefit is a complete non-starter.
Spending a bunch of money for the very limited visual benefit would be a non-starter for me, your priorities are different. I'd opt for a less expensive cosmetic procedure.
Making them more dangerous and spending a lot of money to do it for a very limited visual benefit is an instant "aw hell no".
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 6:00 AM on December 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: If you’re in Chicago as mentioned in your profile, it looks like the Chicago building code for modifying an existing stair directs you to the International Building Code for Existing Buildings. You’re not required to bring it up to modern codes, but you may not modify it in ways that take it further from conforming. Removing the nosing, reducing the tread depth, and/or creating uneven riser heights would not comply. With good reason, because as everyone has said, you’d be making them very unsafe. Even if you’re not worried about yourself or your pets, it would be a liability with visitors, and it would probably be flagged by an inspector when/if you want to sell.
If it were me, I’d strip them and either stain if they’re nice wood under the paint (very possible) or repaint.
posted by Kriesa at 6:08 AM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
If it were me, I’d strip them and either stain if they’re nice wood under the paint (very possible) or repaint.
posted by Kriesa at 6:08 AM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I was in my twenties, I rented a place with roughly 8” stairs. While I mostly adjusted to the weird foot-and-knees-turned-sideways gait required at the time, it was definitely an issue with guests (even the young and spry!), who had a couple of scary close calls. It also made it surprisingly tricky to carry anything large or bulky up and down; either my body was extra twisted, or the load was very unbalanced. It would all be even more worrisome now that I am older, as well as a total non-starter if I ever developed any mobility issues.
And it’s not just the fall risk, which is high. The stress of repeated impact on twisted joints is no joke!
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 7:24 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
And it’s not just the fall risk, which is high. The stress of repeated impact on twisted joints is no joke!
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 7:24 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
The whole danish bare wood floors look is so ubiquitous now I'm expecting a swing in fashion back to wall-wall carpeting, why not just get coir which provides excellent grip for safety and will hide the existence of the nosing.
posted by Lanark at 7:55 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by Lanark at 7:55 AM on December 21, 2023
Regardless of other decisions, I can say definitively that have TWO sturdy handrails, one on each side, really helps with the safety of stairs, and the ability to age in place.
That probably goes double for stairs that are steep with narrow treads, unusual or irregular in other ways etc.
People think about doing this for "later on" so they can "age in place" but I can say from personal experience, this type of thing is just as helpful for the young and spry as for the aged. Stairs are inherently dangerous.
Here is some reading on the subject.
posted by flug at 11:16 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
That probably goes double for stairs that are steep with narrow treads, unusual or irregular in other ways etc.
People think about doing this for "later on" so they can "age in place" but I can say from personal experience, this type of thing is just as helpful for the young and spry as for the aged. Stairs are inherently dangerous.
Here is some reading on the subject.
posted by flug at 11:16 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I think that your existing stairs could look very modern. I know white oak can be many different shades of wood tone, but I'm picturing it as the tone in the second pic you linked, and I think you can get a modern look on the steps by extending whatever that vertical piece of wood is that lines the steps vertically against the wall up to handrail level and then painting the whole thing a very bold color, like a bright orange, deep yellow, or some other color that appeals to you. I see this bold pop of color all the time in Dwell and AD. Add a modern handrail and you're done. You could even paint the risers a contrasting color to the tread or something if you want to get more creative.
You'd need to make sure the steps are perfectly smooth with no knicks or gouges to make the look work perfectly, but some small imperfections in the wood wouldn't be tragic either.
posted by newpotato at 11:18 AM on December 21, 2023
You'd need to make sure the steps are perfectly smooth with no knicks or gouges to make the look work perfectly, but some small imperfections in the wood wouldn't be tragic either.
posted by newpotato at 11:18 AM on December 21, 2023
The stairs are enclosed and not, I imagine, visible to public portions of your home. So I think you can get away with ultra modern stairs even if the rest of the home is Craftsman or whatever style your 1920's home is. I think folks with older homes can modernize as they see fit, but that the update needs to be stylistically coherent with adjacent, visible spaces. If you want to put in a pink polka-dot bathroom in the basement of your 2nd Empire home, go nuts because it is separate. But if you have a super-modern kitchen things look a little incongruent next to your sitting room with wainscotting and built-ins.
It is your home and homes are not museums. But I would consider how this update would look in context.
posted by munchingzombie at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2023
It is your home and homes are not museums. But I would consider how this update would look in context.
posted by munchingzombie at 11:24 AM on December 21, 2023
I fell down a flight of stairs in a historic home that were non-standard when I was in my 20's and suffered an injury that continues to bother me decades later. You may be willing to accept the risk, but if you ever want to have guests over, you might want to reconsider doing anything that will increase the possibility of accidents. Stairs are inherently dangerous, do everything you can to make them safer - this is not a thing to sacrifice for vanity.
posted by epanalepsis at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by epanalepsis at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in a 1950s bungalow where the stairs to the finished basement have 8 3/4" treads, and that is after I added a nosing to make them safer. If it wasn't for the fact that the layout of the stairwell makes it impossible to change the stairs I would have gone for larger treads. My father-in-law recently asked me to add a second handrail to the staircase as he finds them difficult to navigate.
Long story short, don't do anything that makes your stair treads narrower, you will regret it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:17 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Long story short, don't do anything that makes your stair treads narrower, you will regret it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:17 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would you consider filling in below the lip of the nosing by tilting the riser forward at the top to meet the edge of the nosing? Having the riser slant forward would give you something as simple as the clean lines of those stairs you like, without reducing the size of the stairs.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:39 PM on December 21, 2023
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:39 PM on December 21, 2023
I have weird sized steps going to my basement with one step being way too small, and it is a death trap.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 4:47 PM on December 21, 2023
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 4:47 PM on December 21, 2023
Response by poster: Thanks, MeFi, for setting me straight. I'm going to leave them or paint them. I also threw some stripper on there to see what kind of wood I currently have (yes I know it's lead and have protection). Looks like there's brown paint under the current green paint so I'm awaiting another layer of stripper.
To newpotato's point above, I originally was planning on painting/color drenching the stairs and stairwell a bold, bright color. My downstairs is very traditional but I'm making the attic modern. It wasn't finished until much later and has no style/craftmanship to preserve. I will consider how it works with my kitchen though, because my HVAC dude told me to leave the door open a lot so heat is pulled up. After experiencing this cobalt blue in Villa Savoye in person this year followed by the Miro room in Pompidou Center I would love to recreate the feeling this color gives me. But I do have to consider how it will look with my green kitchen.
posted by Bunglegirl at 12:13 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
To newpotato's point above, I originally was planning on painting/color drenching the stairs and stairwell a bold, bright color. My downstairs is very traditional but I'm making the attic modern. It wasn't finished until much later and has no style/craftmanship to preserve. I will consider how it works with my kitchen though, because my HVAC dude told me to leave the door open a lot so heat is pulled up. After experiencing this cobalt blue in Villa Savoye in person this year followed by the Miro room in Pompidou Center I would love to recreate the feeling this color gives me. But I do have to consider how it will look with my green kitchen.
posted by Bunglegirl at 12:13 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: For those curious, here's what's under the paint.
posted by Bunglegirl at 4:39 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Bunglegirl at 4:39 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: You might like the Corbusier color palettes. I think you could use that cobalt blue with a lot of greens.
posted by sepviva at 7:12 PM on December 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 7:12 PM on December 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Nosing is universally recommended unless you have like 11” to work with. It’s too easy to fall with less. Yes for dogs, too. But there are more modern options for nosing.
posted by Kalatraz at 6:07 PM on December 20, 2023 [1 favorite]