Help setting boundaries with clingy coworker
November 20, 2023 1:26 AM Subscribe
My coworker always want validation and conversation with me and I want...neither with him.
He was hired about a year ago and we got along initially. But a few months ago, we were moved into a room in the office where it was just the two of us. Over time, he started to take up a ton of my time- wanting to make small talk constantly, commenting every time I did something (sneezed, made a face, hiccuped, etc.). He also started to make inappropriate jokes. Initially I wrote it off and assumed it was just him being awkward (which he is). But finally, he made a joke about me "sucking" my waterbottle and I contacted my manager and told her that I was uncomfortable and needed to move desks. That same day, before I moved, he said "your suffering brings me pleasure" (when I was expressing frustration with a task) and "have a wet night" (it was raining, but like?). Both times he immediately apologized and said he shouldn't have said that, and I agreed. Later, I told him to not make those kind of jokes around me and he did stop, which made me feel like he is just clueless and not a creep.
I moved desks, and he seemed hurt and like he had been crying. He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out. But at least initially after I made the move, he was leaving me alone.
Now its been a few weeks, and he won't stop coming by my desk. Specifically mine. I think he still thinks of us as potential friends. He runs in whenever I sneeze to say bless you. He started studying for a certification that I and other coworkers are studying for, even though its not related to his job. I suspect this is because he overheard us planning to study together outside of work. But I'm the only person he's asked to study with. I told him no, but that other (male) coworkers might be interested. He also asks me to train him on tasks that are only tangentially related to his job, which I keep putting off.
It's definitely partially my fault for not setting boundaries. I was too nice, especially when we shared an office. And I have been terrible about communicating or setting good boundaries. I have been dropping hints, which he either doesn't pick up on or ignores. I should have told him why I was moving desks and set a boundary then (or reported exactly what he said to my manager, instead of just saying I was uncomfortable). I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him, just because I know he's lonely and I don't want to hurt his feelings. He also guilt trips me when I set boundaries by acting really hurt.
I know he has a review coming up and my manager will be talking to him about the jokes. So I'm thinking of drafting an email to her about the other things, but I also feel guilty because I feel like I should have set better boundaries and I should be able to deal with this on my own. I also know he was hoping to get a raise and I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation.
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters, and didn't come into my office area. He often lurks behind me on breaks. I'm past the point of wanting to socialize but I could handle some small talk in the morning and at the end of the day. This is complicated by the fact that our workplace is very friendly and social. It's not unusual for other coworkers to come say hi and stay for awhile, although with none of the frequency or length that he does. He also knows that I'm friends with our receptionist outside of work, so saying I keep my work and professional life separate won't work.
Any ideas on how to approach this and set boundaries? Do I pull him aside and lay it out for him? Or do I just go to HR?
He was hired about a year ago and we got along initially. But a few months ago, we were moved into a room in the office where it was just the two of us. Over time, he started to take up a ton of my time- wanting to make small talk constantly, commenting every time I did something (sneezed, made a face, hiccuped, etc.). He also started to make inappropriate jokes. Initially I wrote it off and assumed it was just him being awkward (which he is). But finally, he made a joke about me "sucking" my waterbottle and I contacted my manager and told her that I was uncomfortable and needed to move desks. That same day, before I moved, he said "your suffering brings me pleasure" (when I was expressing frustration with a task) and "have a wet night" (it was raining, but like?). Both times he immediately apologized and said he shouldn't have said that, and I agreed. Later, I told him to not make those kind of jokes around me and he did stop, which made me feel like he is just clueless and not a creep.
I moved desks, and he seemed hurt and like he had been crying. He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out. But at least initially after I made the move, he was leaving me alone.
Now its been a few weeks, and he won't stop coming by my desk. Specifically mine. I think he still thinks of us as potential friends. He runs in whenever I sneeze to say bless you. He started studying for a certification that I and other coworkers are studying for, even though its not related to his job. I suspect this is because he overheard us planning to study together outside of work. But I'm the only person he's asked to study with. I told him no, but that other (male) coworkers might be interested. He also asks me to train him on tasks that are only tangentially related to his job, which I keep putting off.
It's definitely partially my fault for not setting boundaries. I was too nice, especially when we shared an office. And I have been terrible about communicating or setting good boundaries. I have been dropping hints, which he either doesn't pick up on or ignores. I should have told him why I was moving desks and set a boundary then (or reported exactly what he said to my manager, instead of just saying I was uncomfortable). I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him, just because I know he's lonely and I don't want to hurt his feelings. He also guilt trips me when I set boundaries by acting really hurt.
I know he has a review coming up and my manager will be talking to him about the jokes. So I'm thinking of drafting an email to her about the other things, but I also feel guilty because I feel like I should have set better boundaries and I should be able to deal with this on my own. I also know he was hoping to get a raise and I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation.
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters, and didn't come into my office area. He often lurks behind me on breaks. I'm past the point of wanting to socialize but I could handle some small talk in the morning and at the end of the day. This is complicated by the fact that our workplace is very friendly and social. It's not unusual for other coworkers to come say hi and stay for awhile, although with none of the frequency or length that he does. He also knows that I'm friends with our receptionist outside of work, so saying I keep my work and professional life separate won't work.
Any ideas on how to approach this and set boundaries? Do I pull him aside and lay it out for him? Or do I just go to HR?
I think you need to be very clear and loud and direct and say it in person. Yes, even if it terrifies you.
"Jim, when you come by my desk, it distracts me from what I'm doing. I need you to stop coming by to socialise."
(But you chat with others!" )
"Nevertheless, I am asking you to stop. Your interruptions are getting in the way of me getting things done. I don't want you to drop by my desk to chat anymore. Can you stop doing that?"
If the answer is anything but yes, you need to tell HR.
Also, you need to say this.
"I value you as a coworker. But I am not looking for more friends at the workplace. Let's keep it cordial."
Additionally, anytime you do interact, give him the bare minimum. Like, glance up, say "uhuh" and look away again. Keep typing.
I am sorry you need to "be rude". You aren't but it feels that way. It feels that way because we don't normally have to brush people off so directly because normally they can take hints.
He pretends not to see your hints.
It is not that he doesn't see them, he has just chosen to ignore anything but a very direct snub. He leaves you no choice but to put up with him or "be rude". That is unfair and enraging.
And it is very much not your fault.
Perhaps your HR is misogynist in which case prepare for them to tell you
"Why didn't you tell him directly"
Or
"Why are you overreacting and cold and unfriendly"
Or sometimes both.
Stick to your guns. Document how often he comes to visit you and that he does not do it to others. Document how much he is disrupting your work. Say you have asked him to stop and he hasn't.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:16 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Jim, when you come by my desk, it distracts me from what I'm doing. I need you to stop coming by to socialise."
(But you chat with others!" )
"Nevertheless, I am asking you to stop. Your interruptions are getting in the way of me getting things done. I don't want you to drop by my desk to chat anymore. Can you stop doing that?"
If the answer is anything but yes, you need to tell HR.
Also, you need to say this.
"I value you as a coworker. But I am not looking for more friends at the workplace. Let's keep it cordial."
Additionally, anytime you do interact, give him the bare minimum. Like, glance up, say "uhuh" and look away again. Keep typing.
I am sorry you need to "be rude". You aren't but it feels that way. It feels that way because we don't normally have to brush people off so directly because normally they can take hints.
He pretends not to see your hints.
It is not that he doesn't see them, he has just chosen to ignore anything but a very direct snub. He leaves you no choice but to put up with him or "be rude". That is unfair and enraging.
And it is very much not your fault.
Perhaps your HR is misogynist in which case prepare for them to tell you
"Why didn't you tell him directly"
Or
"Why are you overreacting and cold and unfriendly"
Or sometimes both.
Stick to your guns. Document how often he comes to visit you and that he does not do it to others. Document how much he is disrupting your work. Say you have asked him to stop and he hasn't.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:16 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
This sounds tough, op, I am sorry you are going through this. Your discomfort and unease are very valid here. It sounds like you are doing a lot of good things. You are creating distance (new desk, not engaging with unnecessary training asks, etc.) and showing empathy for this person as well, which is really good, but has some unintended consequences. It seems like your co-worker is picking up on some of what you are trying to do, but not everything and the dynamic is self-reinforcing in some way. So, your instincts around trying to disrupt the cycle are right on the money here.
Boundaries are kindnesses. And so, the best thing to do is to set the limit you need to set, knowing that this person is going to feel some type of way, and then being okay with that person's emotional reaction. Not in a way of taking on the reaction, or putting yourself into a situation where that reaction is blowing back onto you. Just feeling prepared for their reaction, and confidently allowing it while you hold your boundary. What that could look like is a conversation with you, your coworker and another person present. I would be honest, hey, I was struggling to set this boundary earlier, but here's what I need. As they are reacting, you could say, I hear you. You are feeling x and y. Just reflecting back, in a positive-neutral, observational way what they are saying and doing. And if things go sideways at any point, have two specific outs. The first is a small out. If they try to draw you into a back and forth you don't want to have, but you want to continue the conversation, say something like, 'It sounds like you want to have a different conversation. I am not able to have that conversation with you right now. But I do want to make sure you know what I am asking for here, so let me clarify/simplify/go over that part one more time.' So that's the small out. If things are too intense, I would have a big out prepared as wel, if you need to end the conversation. Perhaps, 'Okay, thanks for this conversation. I need to take a break right now, so I am going to head out/see you later/go on to my next task, etc.'
The person you bring with you could absolutely be hr, or your receptionist friend or another person you are both familiar with. I would be really specific about what you need - I want our relationship to be professional. I don't want you to rush into the room when I sneeze, and while I am happy to help you learn things for work, they need to be related to your job.
If your boss is someone you can rely on here, you could let them know you want to have this conversation, and even give them a preview of what you would like to say. If they are not someone to confide in here, because you don't trust them or there is politicking that you are needing to do, I would wait to contact them as needed after the conversation.
You've got this. It is always harder to set the boundary after the fact. But it is always possible. And it is always the right decision. Your coworker's feelings are not your responsibility. Your own needs are. And so, with empathy and kindness, with confident momentum, with honesty and clarity, set those boundaries.
posted by kaelynski at 2:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Boundaries are kindnesses. And so, the best thing to do is to set the limit you need to set, knowing that this person is going to feel some type of way, and then being okay with that person's emotional reaction. Not in a way of taking on the reaction, or putting yourself into a situation where that reaction is blowing back onto you. Just feeling prepared for their reaction, and confidently allowing it while you hold your boundary. What that could look like is a conversation with you, your coworker and another person present. I would be honest, hey, I was struggling to set this boundary earlier, but here's what I need. As they are reacting, you could say, I hear you. You are feeling x and y. Just reflecting back, in a positive-neutral, observational way what they are saying and doing. And if things go sideways at any point, have two specific outs. The first is a small out. If they try to draw you into a back and forth you don't want to have, but you want to continue the conversation, say something like, 'It sounds like you want to have a different conversation. I am not able to have that conversation with you right now. But I do want to make sure you know what I am asking for here, so let me clarify/simplify/go over that part one more time.' So that's the small out. If things are too intense, I would have a big out prepared as wel, if you need to end the conversation. Perhaps, 'Okay, thanks for this conversation. I need to take a break right now, so I am going to head out/see you later/go on to my next task, etc.'
The person you bring with you could absolutely be hr, or your receptionist friend or another person you are both familiar with. I would be really specific about what you need - I want our relationship to be professional. I don't want you to rush into the room when I sneeze, and while I am happy to help you learn things for work, they need to be related to your job.
If your boss is someone you can rely on here, you could let them know you want to have this conversation, and even give them a preview of what you would like to say. If they are not someone to confide in here, because you don't trust them or there is politicking that you are needing to do, I would wait to contact them as needed after the conversation.
You've got this. It is always harder to set the boundary after the fact. But it is always possible. And it is always the right decision. Your coworker's feelings are not your responsibility. Your own needs are. And so, with empathy and kindness, with confident momentum, with honesty and clarity, set those boundaries.
posted by kaelynski at 2:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation.
You aren't! He decided to say those things to you and act this way. Sabotaging would be making things up. Setting more clear boundaries would benefit you both long term, but I understand why that's difficult at work and with a pushy person. I think kaelynski has a really good strategy for setting the boundaries you need. If that doesn't stop his shenanigans cold, HR!
posted by Eyelash at 3:56 AM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
You aren't! He decided to say those things to you and act this way. Sabotaging would be making things up. Setting more clear boundaries would benefit you both long term, but I understand why that's difficult at work and with a pushy person. I think kaelynski has a really good strategy for setting the boundaries you need. If that doesn't stop his shenanigans cold, HR!
posted by Eyelash at 3:56 AM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
Your manager should have asked you for the full story even if you were reticent, and brought it up with him WAY before a performance review.
HR will likely ask you what you’ve done to make it clear his contact is unwelcome. Tell them you haven’t felt comfortable doing that because of his stalking behavior (waiting in his car for you to leave etc.)
This is not a normal matter that the employees should resolve on their own. This guy is a liability and he’s a management/HR problem, not a you problem. If they don’t see that after you have laid out the facts, this is not a good place to work.
Don’t say things like this when you report him: “he is just clueless and not a creep.” His behavior is creepy and it’s a pattern. Everyone knows they can’t make blowjob jokes in the office.
posted by kapers at 4:39 AM on November 20, 2023 [36 favorites]
HR will likely ask you what you’ve done to make it clear his contact is unwelcome. Tell them you haven’t felt comfortable doing that because of his stalking behavior (waiting in his car for you to leave etc.)
This is not a normal matter that the employees should resolve on their own. This guy is a liability and he’s a management/HR problem, not a you problem. If they don’t see that after you have laid out the facts, this is not a good place to work.
Don’t say things like this when you report him: “he is just clueless and not a creep.” His behavior is creepy and it’s a pattern. Everyone knows they can’t make blowjob jokes in the office.
posted by kapers at 4:39 AM on November 20, 2023 [36 favorites]
Agreeing with all this advice, adding that it’s a good idea to start keeping a diary of these incidents with rough dates for the ones that have already happened that you mention here, as this may be needed later. The waiting in his car and looking up at your window thing is really disturbing.
posted by chives at 4:52 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by chives at 4:52 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
A long, long time ago, I worked with someone very clingy like this. Didn't make off-color jokes, but really insinuated his way into my life in a creepy way. We're both Jewish, and he decided this was something he wanted to bond on. He would be pushy about going to dinner, and giving me rides home, celebrating holidays. I wasn't really intent on being friends or NOT being friends. I just wanted to do my job, have our daily discussions and be done with it. I had a very close friend that I usually had lunch with everyday; he pushed his way into those.
I gave in on his push to go to dinner a few times. It was fine. We talked about some personal stuff (which I would eventually regret). One time, he was giving me a ride, and decided that he wanted me to meet his wife, even though I told him that I wanted to go home. We ended up at his house and me meeting his wife who insisted I stay for dinner, etc. I felt like I was being suffocated.
One day, he comes into my cubicle and hands me a cell phone and says, "my financial advisor wants to talk to you", and pushed the phone into my hand. I say hello, and this guy starts going into some of the personal financial stuff I had discussed w/ the guy. I said no thanks, and hung up. I tossed the phone at the guy and told him to never fucking do anything like that ever again. After that, I just started trying to ignore him.
About a week later, my friend and I were going to lunch and he asked if he could come with. I said no, you're not invited. Something offhanded, and probably a bit rude. I just wanted him away. I turn to go, and he jumped on my back and put me in a chokehold and wrestled me to the ground. It was super fucked up. He was fired by the end of the week. I think he called me once after that, but I ignored his call.
I'm not saying your colleague is necessarily a violent person, but I do think it's super important to notice these potential signs and distance yourself.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 5:05 AM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
I gave in on his push to go to dinner a few times. It was fine. We talked about some personal stuff (which I would eventually regret). One time, he was giving me a ride, and decided that he wanted me to meet his wife, even though I told him that I wanted to go home. We ended up at his house and me meeting his wife who insisted I stay for dinner, etc. I felt like I was being suffocated.
One day, he comes into my cubicle and hands me a cell phone and says, "my financial advisor wants to talk to you", and pushed the phone into my hand. I say hello, and this guy starts going into some of the personal financial stuff I had discussed w/ the guy. I said no thanks, and hung up. I tossed the phone at the guy and told him to never fucking do anything like that ever again. After that, I just started trying to ignore him.
About a week later, my friend and I were going to lunch and he asked if he could come with. I said no, you're not invited. Something offhanded, and probably a bit rude. I just wanted him away. I turn to go, and he jumped on my back and put me in a chokehold and wrestled me to the ground. It was super fucked up. He was fired by the end of the week. I think he called me once after that, but I ignored his call.
I'm not saying your colleague is necessarily a violent person, but I do think it's super important to notice these potential signs and distance yourself.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 5:05 AM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
So I'm thinking of drafting an email to her about the other things, but I also feel guilty because I feel like I should have set better boundaries and I should be able to deal with this on my own. I also know he was hoping to get a raise and I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation.
I don't think this is a good idea. You have a legit issue, but writing an email is another way for you to wrangle out of dealing directly with the guy--something you know you need to learn how to do.
From what you describe, your co-worker doesn't sound horrible; he sounds kind of socially inept and annoying. And you have been responding to his friendliness, so as far as he knows you guys are on good terms. If he is off the hook inappropriate, of course go to H.R.--but this guy seems like a dorky co-worker, not a misogynist ass.
Your empathy and caring about people's feelings are wonderful qualities, but don't use them as an excuse for being a passive character in your own life.
Women are raised to be nice and accommodating, I get it. But you are not obligated to engage with him in any non-work way. If you don't want to study with him on the certification, don't (or invite him to join the group study time if that is an option). When he stops by, tell him you are busy, if you are not busy, become busy. Also, there is some good verbiage in the scripts above.
Good luck
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 5:39 AM on November 20, 2023
I don't think this is a good idea. You have a legit issue, but writing an email is another way for you to wrangle out of dealing directly with the guy--something you know you need to learn how to do.
From what you describe, your co-worker doesn't sound horrible; he sounds kind of socially inept and annoying. And you have been responding to his friendliness, so as far as he knows you guys are on good terms. If he is off the hook inappropriate, of course go to H.R.--but this guy seems like a dorky co-worker, not a misogynist ass.
Your empathy and caring about people's feelings are wonderful qualities, but don't use them as an excuse for being a passive character in your own life.
Women are raised to be nice and accommodating, I get it. But you are not obligated to engage with him in any non-work way. If you don't want to study with him on the certification, don't (or invite him to join the group study time if that is an option). When he stops by, tell him you are busy, if you are not busy, become busy. Also, there is some good verbiage in the scripts above.
Good luck
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 5:39 AM on November 20, 2023
But finally, he made a joke about me "sucking" my waterbottle and I contacted my manager and told her that I was uncomfortable and needed to move desks. That same day, before I moved, he said "your suffering brings me pleasure" (when I was expressing frustration with a task) and "have a wet night" (it was raining, but like?). Both times he immediately apologized and said he shouldn't have said that, and I agreed.
He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out.
Document these right now, with dates, as you recalled them here. Don't characterize ("he's not xyz, he's just an abc"), only describe what you saw and heard, along with how it made you feel at the time. Send it to HR and your manager simultaneously. Do not apologize for waiting so long to send. You are not in the wrong. He is. And he's a liability to the company that HR would want to monitor and potentially act on.
This kind of thing happened when I was a director but the guy reported to someone else. The guy thought he and I were friendly, because I was friends with his (male) manager, who had tolerated his creepy jokes for a year. I had a duty to report suspicious behavior. I sent a copy of his new jokes/threats to his director and to the CEO (we had no HR). They locked down his IT access within an hour so he couldn't sabotage anything or remove evidence. When he was told, he made a threat against the physical building. He was fired immediately.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out.
Document these right now, with dates, as you recalled them here. Don't characterize ("he's not xyz, he's just an abc"), only describe what you saw and heard, along with how it made you feel at the time. Send it to HR and your manager simultaneously. Do not apologize for waiting so long to send. You are not in the wrong. He is. And he's a liability to the company that HR would want to monitor and potentially act on.
This kind of thing happened when I was a director but the guy reported to someone else. The guy thought he and I were friendly, because I was friends with his (male) manager, who had tolerated his creepy jokes for a year. I had a duty to report suspicious behavior. I sent a copy of his new jokes/threats to his director and to the CEO (we had no HR). They locked down his IT access within an hour so he couldn't sabotage anything or remove evidence. When he was told, he made a threat against the physical building. He was fired immediately.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
Thing is, both of you started on a friendly footing. That’s collegial and harmony-seeking. But you didn’t make it weird with sexual innuendo or an inappropriate re-zoning of that collegiality. When it did go into Wrong, you went to your boss and moved. That is a boundary. Whether you were superficially friendly after this is just you working past the transgressions, trying to be professional.
He’s about to have a review in which his inappropriate behaviour around you will be a subject of scrutiny. He may seek you out after to work through his feelings about it all, or perhaps he will seek out another situation for a proposed enmeshment and that is when you can say without any apologetic preamble or limiting language like ‘sorry but’ or ‘it’s just that I…’ etc the script you provided yourself in your question to us, the True Thing that you want:
“gently, I would like it if you left me alone outside of work matters, and didn’t come into my office area”
posted by honey-barbara at 5:42 AM on November 20, 2023
He’s about to have a review in which his inappropriate behaviour around you will be a subject of scrutiny. He may seek you out after to work through his feelings about it all, or perhaps he will seek out another situation for a proposed enmeshment and that is when you can say without any apologetic preamble or limiting language like ‘sorry but’ or ‘it’s just that I…’ etc the script you provided yourself in your question to us, the True Thing that you want:
“gently, I would like it if you left me alone outside of work matters, and didn’t come into my office area”
posted by honey-barbara at 5:42 AM on November 20, 2023
It's definitely partially my fault for not setting boundaries. I was too nice, especially when we shared an office. And I have been terrible about communicating or setting good boundaries.
First - you should absolve yourself of any fault or guilt here...being friendly and cordial does not make you responsible for the bad behavior of others. And this is 100% bad behavior on his end. Being lonely is not an excuse for not being aware of other people's desire for boundaries. It sounds like you are having very normal interactions with others in a friendly work environment so you have a lot of evidence to suggest the way you are interacting at work is entirely working fine - except for him.
IF (and I say IF) you want to save his reputation I would talk to your manager about it and about email him directly and making it short and to the point - something to the effect of "I would like you to stop coming by my desk - it is distracting me from my work and making me uncomfortable. I would like to limit our interactions to work matters only going forward and am not interested in having a conversation about why. - Fern."
You're creating a paper trail for the boundaries you want to set and are looping your manager in as backup for some of his attempts to create work-related reasons for interacting - i.e., his not actually related to his job training requests. If he violates this AT ALL, you then can go guilt-free to his manager because he's continued to not respect your wishes.
But if it was me, and I had already tried to get away from him and he's now back, I would 100% go to his manager to get him to go away or to find another place to work. His raise and/or performance evaluation should have all the information available which includes that he is making another coworker uncomfortable and less productive, and he's already been worked around once. It may be time for him to find somewhere else to work.
posted by openhearted at 5:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
First - you should absolve yourself of any fault or guilt here...being friendly and cordial does not make you responsible for the bad behavior of others. And this is 100% bad behavior on his end. Being lonely is not an excuse for not being aware of other people's desire for boundaries. It sounds like you are having very normal interactions with others in a friendly work environment so you have a lot of evidence to suggest the way you are interacting at work is entirely working fine - except for him.
IF (and I say IF) you want to save his reputation I would talk to your manager about it and about email him directly and making it short and to the point - something to the effect of "I would like you to stop coming by my desk - it is distracting me from my work and making me uncomfortable. I would like to limit our interactions to work matters only going forward and am not interested in having a conversation about why. - Fern."
You're creating a paper trail for the boundaries you want to set and are looping your manager in as backup for some of his attempts to create work-related reasons for interacting - i.e., his not actually related to his job training requests. If he violates this AT ALL, you then can go guilt-free to his manager because he's continued to not respect your wishes.
But if it was me, and I had already tried to get away from him and he's now back, I would 100% go to his manager to get him to go away or to find another place to work. His raise and/or performance evaluation should have all the information available which includes that he is making another coworker uncomfortable and less productive, and he's already been worked around once. It may be time for him to find somewhere else to work.
posted by openhearted at 5:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Use language that lets him know there will be consequences. Look through workplace harrasment training videos and choose wording about creating an uncomfortable working environment, discrimination (sexism etc.) and other words and phrases that apply to actually committing a violation.
I'm betting it's not exactly his first rodeo. I had a co-worker like this and said, "This makes me uncomfortable," and "You're making me uncomfortable" pointedly in a single conversation and he got up and left the room and never did any of that again. He knew I was giving him a particular kind of warning and I could see on his face that it was familiar to him. If your co-worker can't pick up on something like that, just tell him he's going to be reported.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm betting it's not exactly his first rodeo. I had a co-worker like this and said, "This makes me uncomfortable," and "You're making me uncomfortable" pointedly in a single conversation and he got up and left the room and never did any of that again. He knew I was giving him a particular kind of warning and I could see on his face that it was familiar to him. If your co-worker can't pick up on something like that, just tell him he's going to be reported.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some of these recommendations require you to do an awful lot of emotional labour. He's going to react whatever you do. Only you know the wider dynamics with your colleagues well enough to assess if you really have to do anything other than tell him to go away in the moment.
If he comes running when you sneeze - you appreciate the thought but it's disrupting both your work flows so you'd prefer he stopped doing that. Then you turn your head and go back to your task at hand.
If he wants you to do things your boss hasn't requested you to do - you're happy to help but as this will take time away from your other tasks you'll have to check with boss about priorities first. Check with your boss to make sure they have not asked him to learn task and to ask you for help. If your boss has indeed sanctioned this, be mildly confused, you hadn't realised it was part of annoying guy's role. Then proceed to actually have the conversation about priorities with a view of having somebody else train him...
If he hovers by your desk - be absorbed by your task and ignore him, if he persists state you're unable to chat and go back to your task. If he stays after that ask him to stop hovering because having him stand there is distracting.
Repeat as required. If he doesn't stop after your clear requests to stop you escalate to your manager.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:58 AM on November 20, 2023
If he comes running when you sneeze - you appreciate the thought but it's disrupting both your work flows so you'd prefer he stopped doing that. Then you turn your head and go back to your task at hand.
If he wants you to do things your boss hasn't requested you to do - you're happy to help but as this will take time away from your other tasks you'll have to check with boss about priorities first. Check with your boss to make sure they have not asked him to learn task and to ask you for help. If your boss has indeed sanctioned this, be mildly confused, you hadn't realised it was part of annoying guy's role. Then proceed to actually have the conversation about priorities with a view of having somebody else train him...
If he hovers by your desk - be absorbed by your task and ignore him, if he persists state you're unable to chat and go back to your task. If he stays after that ask him to stop hovering because having him stand there is distracting.
Repeat as required. If he doesn't stop after your clear requests to stop you escalate to your manager.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:58 AM on November 20, 2023
I stopped reading early on. This is sexual harassment. You should treat it as such, and use those words with your manager.
I know he has a review coming up and my manager will be talking to him about the jokes.
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters,
Tell her that. Do not feel guilty. He is responsible for his behavior, and his behavior is sexual harassment, and actionable.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:15 AM on November 20, 2023 [25 favorites]
I know he has a review coming up and my manager will be talking to him about the jokes.
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters,
Tell her that. Do not feel guilty. He is responsible for his behavior, and his behavior is sexual harassment, and actionable.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:15 AM on November 20, 2023 [25 favorites]
I happen to be reading a book right now that might help you: Working With You is Killing Me: Freeing Yourself from Emotional Traps at Work link
It covers this exact type of situation including steps for setting types of boundaries, and it's a pretty easy read.
posted by ch1x0r at 6:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
It covers this exact type of situation including steps for setting types of boundaries, and it's a pretty easy read.
posted by ch1x0r at 6:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also am surprised no one used the words "sexual harassment." I just went through my work's annual sexual harassment training, and this absolutely qualifies. Report to your boss, HR, or both. Do not speak to him.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:23 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:23 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you had told me to leave you alone, I would be mortified! I would never talk to you again unless it was absolutely necessary (ie building is on fire). His sulking and stalking and visible moping is evidence that he still feels entitled to your attention and worry. He is not worried about upsetting you but you are worried about upsetting him. Please try to stop feeling sorry for this entitled person and think about why you are trying to mollify him and excuse his behavior.
People who act like this shouldn’t be promoted, and you are doing your company (and other women) a favor by letting them know about this.
posted by Vatnesine at 6:57 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
People who act like this shouldn’t be promoted, and you are doing your company (and other women) a favor by letting them know about this.
posted by Vatnesine at 6:57 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him, just because I know he's lonely and I don't want to hurt his feelings.
I want to be clear that I do not think you've done anything wrong.
You need to stop going into his office completely, if you haven't already done so. It is not your responsibility to manage his loneliness or feelings.
posted by cooker girl at 7:01 AM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
I want to be clear that I do not think you've done anything wrong.
You need to stop going into his office completely, if you haven't already done so. It is not your responsibility to manage his loneliness or feelings.
posted by cooker girl at 7:01 AM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him, just because I know he's lonely and I don't want to hurt his feelings. He also guilt trips me when I set boundaries by acting really hurt
One of the things I regret is the years I spent catering to the loneliness and feelings of the multiple guys who made my life miserable in this way. It's normal, it means you're considerate (way more considerate than they'll probably ever learn to be), but you have to stop. If this guy is anything like mine were, he'll take 3 miles if you give him a quarter of an inch, and he will never, ever stop unless cut off completely and consistently. If he's lonely or hurt he needs to take that to a therapist, or otherwise deal with it on his own time like an adult.
What your manager and HR need to know is that you need to have as close to zero professional interaction with him as possible. You should not be assigned to train him, you should be on different teams/projects/whatever to any extent possible. His behavior is not professional and not acceptable and it's making your work environment feel unsafe.
I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation
He's sabotaging himself, and his reputation should reflect reality. Behaving professionally and respectfully should be a minimal requirement for promotion. Is this the behavior of someone who should ever be promoted to a position of power over anyone? Imagine if he ever became a manager or a senior-level employee and acted this way towards a report or a junior.
posted by trig at 7:13 AM on November 20, 2023 [21 favorites]
One of the things I regret is the years I spent catering to the loneliness and feelings of the multiple guys who made my life miserable in this way. It's normal, it means you're considerate (way more considerate than they'll probably ever learn to be), but you have to stop. If this guy is anything like mine were, he'll take 3 miles if you give him a quarter of an inch, and he will never, ever stop unless cut off completely and consistently. If he's lonely or hurt he needs to take that to a therapist, or otherwise deal with it on his own time like an adult.
What your manager and HR need to know is that you need to have as close to zero professional interaction with him as possible. You should not be assigned to train him, you should be on different teams/projects/whatever to any extent possible. His behavior is not professional and not acceptable and it's making your work environment feel unsafe.
I feel like I'm sabotaging his reputation
He's sabotaging himself, and his reputation should reflect reality. Behaving professionally and respectfully should be a minimal requirement for promotion. Is this the behavior of someone who should ever be promoted to a position of power over anyone? Imagine if he ever became a manager or a senior-level employee and acted this way towards a report or a junior.
posted by trig at 7:13 AM on November 20, 2023 [21 favorites]
I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him, just because I know he's lonely and I don't want to hurt his feelings.
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters, and didn't come into my office area
Stop going to say hi. If you only want him to come to you when/if it's essential for work, you do the same. No casual dropping by because you feel responsible for this guy's feelings. His feelings are his responsibility. And his pay review is also his responsibility, not yours.
And stop "dropping hints", because you know they're not working. Be firm and clear. It might upset him, but the only way to not upset him is to let him keep coming to you whenever he wants for as long as you both work there. You don't want that.
Plus what everyone else said.
posted by fabius at 7:16 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ideally, I would like it if he completely left me alone outside of work matters, and didn't come into my office area
Stop going to say hi. If you only want him to come to you when/if it's essential for work, you do the same. No casual dropping by because you feel responsible for this guy's feelings. His feelings are his responsibility. And his pay review is also his responsibility, not yours.
And stop "dropping hints", because you know they're not working. Be firm and clear. It might upset him, but the only way to not upset him is to let him keep coming to you whenever he wants for as long as you both work there. You don't want that.
Plus what everyone else said.
posted by fabius at 7:16 AM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there's already a conversation due with the manager, I'd add to the list. No need to feel guilt. If things don't improve immediately, I'd move on to the HR team for redress. Sometimes managers can be avoidant or not as direct as they imagined they were.
I'm in the middle of mucking out a situation where the manager before me swore they'd acted on disparate treatment toward someone on my team, but there's no record or indication of that. So I've got one very spun up employee who went to great lengths to document their problem with another employee, and the HR team, for whom all this is news, is trying to get us to reboot the process with "more documentation." I'm not blaming the affected employee for not doing so, but if they'd just noted that the disparate behavior hadn't improved after the alleged conversation from my predecessor and moved on to HR for help, the chances this would all be resolved would be much higher.
Years ago I helped write a guide to open door conversations and escalations in partnership with my HR team. The advice we agreed on was, "if you ask for redress and there's no evidence the intervention helped, escalate right away."
People get wrapped around the axle taking responsibility for the outcomes when they ask for help, even when they've been treated quite poorly. Some HR teams can be reactive and punitive, and that's unfortunate, but IME most are fairly conservative and will prefer to start with communication before sanctioning anyone.
Your manager is supposed to be your first line of recourse, so give her a chance to solve it and mention the other behavior. If they tell you they had the conversation and the behavior continues, don't agonize: Straight to whatever passes for an "HR business partner" or some similar title if you have them. It will help if you have documentation in the form of dates and events. HR people can be very slow to spin up, and they like to have documentation.
If you wait and keep going to your manager, it will get frustrating and the chances of a bad outcome will increase.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 8:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm in the middle of mucking out a situation where the manager before me swore they'd acted on disparate treatment toward someone on my team, but there's no record or indication of that. So I've got one very spun up employee who went to great lengths to document their problem with another employee, and the HR team, for whom all this is news, is trying to get us to reboot the process with "more documentation." I'm not blaming the affected employee for not doing so, but if they'd just noted that the disparate behavior hadn't improved after the alleged conversation from my predecessor and moved on to HR for help, the chances this would all be resolved would be much higher.
Years ago I helped write a guide to open door conversations and escalations in partnership with my HR team. The advice we agreed on was, "if you ask for redress and there's no evidence the intervention helped, escalate right away."
People get wrapped around the axle taking responsibility for the outcomes when they ask for help, even when they've been treated quite poorly. Some HR teams can be reactive and punitive, and that's unfortunate, but IME most are fairly conservative and will prefer to start with communication before sanctioning anyone.
Your manager is supposed to be your first line of recourse, so give her a chance to solve it and mention the other behavior. If they tell you they had the conversation and the behavior continues, don't agonize: Straight to whatever passes for an "HR business partner" or some similar title if you have them. It will help if you have documentation in the form of dates and events. HR people can be very slow to spin up, and they like to have documentation.
If you wait and keep going to your manager, it will get frustrating and the chances of a bad outcome will increase.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 8:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I had a coworker like this. I was nice to him because he was awkward, but he kept demanding more of my time and making me uncomfortable. When I avoided him, he started sending emails written in MiXEd CaPS that looked like ransom notes, ranting about how I’m just like the rest of the NorMs. I didn’t tell anyone until he surprised me in a hallway and slammed my head against the wall in a rage. When I told HR and showed them the emails, he was fired immediately and they were mad I hadn’t told them sooner. I agree with those saying to report immediately.
posted by dianeF at 8:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by dianeF at 8:42 AM on November 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
For comfort and safety, I would go to my manager and HR first, rather than confronting him directly. He or anyone may characterise this as "overreacting", or ask why you couldn't speak to him directly before taking that step (see other comments). But it's not important how he feels or how your actions are perceived, as long as you can calmly and clearly get him away from you. It seems like you're really minimising how uncomfortable and unsafe you feel, which is a normal reaction to sexual harassment in the workplace. But you deserve to feel safe.
You have spent enough time managing his feelings and you don't owe him anything if he doesn't have the emotional intelligence to understand his behaviour is inappropriate. It's his lack of understanding that makes it unsafe to confront him, because there's no reason to assume he will behave in a socially appropriate way that won't hurt or traumatise you.
posted by guessthis at 9:20 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
You have spent enough time managing his feelings and you don't owe him anything if he doesn't have the emotional intelligence to understand his behaviour is inappropriate. It's his lack of understanding that makes it unsafe to confront him, because there's no reason to assume he will behave in a socially appropriate way that won't hurt or traumatise you.
posted by guessthis at 9:20 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree with all of the above, especially This is Sexual Harrassment. You never mention genders and maybe it doesn't matter, but this is way more than "clingy". You are not at fault for any of this, although I hope you consider assertiveness training for yourself, as you are being too nice to this person - stop caring about this person's feelings. They certainly do not care about yours and this is definitely veering into dangerous stalking territory. The Gift of Fear gets recommended a lot on this website for good reason; it might help up you learn to identify warning signals from this person you are not seeing because you've been culturally conditioned to be nice.
posted by j810c at 9:26 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by j810c at 9:26 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Consider a therapist to support you in setting boundaries and help you recover from this sexual harassment. As your distress is a workplace injury, either the public workplace health authority or your employer should pay. Mention this to HR when you report the harassment.
posted by shock muppet at 9:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by shock muppet at 9:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's definitely partially my fault for not setting boundaries.
What? That's... simply not true. The things he said were wildly inappropriate. You did not cause this.
Your question sounds like you are still trying to accommodate this guy. Ideally you'd like him to leave you alone? Why "ideally"? You have the right to be left completely alone by him unless he has a clear work reason, and even then your manager should have your back and not expect you to interact with him at work.
I'd report the exact things he said to your manager and HR. If he is not stopped he will escalate. Plus, he is a liability. HR needs to know or sooner or later he might do it to someone else, possibly someone who has a less supportive manager or less social capital, or is less assertive.
If he is in any way capable of being reformed, you will be doing him a kindness by putting a firm stop to his behavior (by letting your company handle this). Hints won't help. A harsh conversation with HR might.
Also, please document what happened and when, factually and without interpretations/commentary, and email it to yourself (private email to private email) so you have a dated record. If there were any other people present, write it down as well.
Best of luck.
posted by M. at 10:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
What? That's... simply not true. The things he said were wildly inappropriate. You did not cause this.
Your question sounds like you are still trying to accommodate this guy. Ideally you'd like him to leave you alone? Why "ideally"? You have the right to be left completely alone by him unless he has a clear work reason, and even then your manager should have your back and not expect you to interact with him at work.
I'd report the exact things he said to your manager and HR. If he is not stopped he will escalate. Plus, he is a liability. HR needs to know or sooner or later he might do it to someone else, possibly someone who has a less supportive manager or less social capital, or is less assertive.
If he is in any way capable of being reformed, you will be doing him a kindness by putting a firm stop to his behavior (by letting your company handle this). Hints won't help. A harsh conversation with HR might.
Also, please document what happened and when, factually and without interpretations/commentary, and email it to yourself (private email to private email) so you have a dated record. If there were any other people present, write it down as well.
Best of luck.
posted by M. at 10:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
He or anyone may characterise this as "overreacting", or ask why you couldn't speak to him directly before taking that step
Sexual harassment training has changed in the last several years. They used to ask you to directly ask the person to stop before escalating to HR, but now they just want you to take it to HR.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:50 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Sexual harassment training has changed in the last several years. They used to ask you to directly ask the person to stop before escalating to HR, but now they just want you to take it to HR.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:50 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I want to emphasize that you already took these steps:
- reported it to your manager (whose reaction to hearing you were being harassed was to…wait for his annual performance review to bring it up)
-physically removed yourself from your shared space (again, an under-reaction on your manager’s part not to immediately escalate and investigate why their employee felt too uncomfortable to sit in their assigned seat)
-asked him directly to stop (and he stopped making those jokes but didn’t see fit to stop bothering you—so he’s relying on a technicality which is not okay. It’s like the harasser equivalent of the sibling “I’m not touching you”game)
You gotta go to HR now. Ask them what they are going to do about it because you have done all you felt safe doing, given his inappropriate reaction last time you tried to resolve this yourself.
As a manager I’m appalled—most workplaces, especially ones with HR departments, are not ambiguous on the manager’s role here at all. The manager has to escalate claims like this for investigation, whether the affected employee wants that or not.
posted by kapers at 11:09 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
- reported it to your manager (whose reaction to hearing you were being harassed was to…wait for his annual performance review to bring it up)
-physically removed yourself from your shared space (again, an under-reaction on your manager’s part not to immediately escalate and investigate why their employee felt too uncomfortable to sit in their assigned seat)
-asked him directly to stop (and he stopped making those jokes but didn’t see fit to stop bothering you—so he’s relying on a technicality which is not okay. It’s like the harasser equivalent of the sibling “I’m not touching you”game)
You gotta go to HR now. Ask them what they are going to do about it because you have done all you felt safe doing, given his inappropriate reaction last time you tried to resolve this yourself.
As a manager I’m appalled—most workplaces, especially ones with HR departments, are not ambiguous on the manager’s role here at all. The manager has to escalate claims like this for investigation, whether the affected employee wants that or not.
posted by kapers at 11:09 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
“Sexual harassment training has changed in the last several years. They used to ask you to directly ask the person to stop before escalating to HR, but now they just want you to take it to HR.”
Seconding Blue Jello Elf. The advice to resolve it on your own applies more to things like “Mary’s headphones leak noise.” Or more ambiguous situations like “Lee asked to grab lunch and I told him maybe some other time and he asked again.” They will still ask you what you’ve done on your own as part of their investigation—which is already plenty.
Remember to talk about the behavior and its impact on you, and don’t make excuses for his motivations or how you might be responsible.
posted by kapers at 11:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Seconding Blue Jello Elf. The advice to resolve it on your own applies more to things like “Mary’s headphones leak noise.” Or more ambiguous situations like “Lee asked to grab lunch and I told him maybe some other time and he asked again.” They will still ask you what you’ve done on your own as part of their investigation—which is already plenty.
Remember to talk about the behavior and its impact on you, and don’t make excuses for his motivations or how you might be responsible.
posted by kapers at 11:34 AM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can see you're being really hard on yourself, so I want to first say: You are not a bad person for wanting your co-worker to leave you alone, and it is reasonable for you to ask your manager to address your co-worker’s behavior.
From what I have read, you have done a good job of asserting your boundaries and your co-worker appears to be intentionally ignoring them. At this stage, it becomes a matter for your employer to address with your co-worker.
I think sending your manager a follow-up email detailing everything you have shared with us about your co-worker’s behavior towards you is a solid plan. His behavior is excessive, boundary-crossing, and not normal workplace behavior. This man runs into your office every time you sneeze, for crying out loud.
By including all of this information in an email, you are creating a paper-trail, which is beneficial for several reasons:
1. While you may be on the fence about whether your coworker is more "creepy" or "clueless", having prior documentation of his behavior ready to go if he leans more "creepy" will work in your favor if you need to escalate this matter to HR. If, after being appraised of your co-worker’s specific behavior, your manager does not fully shut this man’s behavior down, then you already have everything in written form to forward to HR.
The specifics you listed above are great examples for documentation purposes: "he made a joke about me "sucking" my waterbottle and I contacted my manager and told her that I was uncomfortable and needed to move desks. That same day, before I moved, he said "your suffering brings me pleasure" (when I was expressing frustration with a task) and "have a wet night""
These types of comments are forms of sexual harassment, which in an American workplace would be a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. AKA, the type of behavior savvy employers would want to address promptly, lest they be hit with a lawsuit later down the line.
2. You are establishing that this is part of a pattern of behavior. What sticks out to me is that even though your co-worker apologized after making the first joke, he continued to make similar jokes, which suggests he was aware his behavior was inappropriate but made the choice to continue with it anyway.
You wrote: "Both times he immediately apologized and said he shouldn't have said that, and I agreed. Later, I told him to not make those kind of jokes around me and he did stop"
This is good example of boundary-setting on your part. You expressed initial discomfort with your co-worker’s jokes, and then you followed up with him to directly request he stop making them around you.
3. Your co-worker is interfering with your ability to do your job properly, and regardless of whether there was sexual harassment involved, the description you have given us of his behavior makes it sound like he is interrupting you constantly, and asking for a lot of assistance. If your co-worker is struggling that much with his work where he is regularly coming to you for training (which I am assuming from your letter is not part of your regular work duties, although I could be wrong), then that is something he needs to address with a manager, not you.
You wrote, “He started studying for a certification that I and other coworkers are studying for, even though its not related to his job. I suspect this is because he overheard us planning to study together outside of work. But I'm the only person he's asked to study with. I told him no, but that other (male) coworkers might be interested. He also asks me to train him on tasks that are only tangentially related to his job, which I keep putting off.”
This is a good example of boundary-setting on your part, where you declined to study with your co-worker, and suggested he might speak to other co-workers if he was looking for study partners.
4. I have some concerns about what you wrote here: "He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out." and here: “He often lurks behind me on breaks.”
Potential red flag here – of course I as an outside observer have no way to know how long your co-worker was sitting in his car, or what the circumstances there were, and it could be a coincidence. Same with breaks – I do not know if there is only a small break room that you and your co-workers all congregate in, or if your co-worker is following you when you take breaks elsewhere, for instance. I also don’t know the size of your workplace or if you were alone in the building at the time that you saw your co-worker outside sitting in his car. However, given the level of excessive attention you have been getting from your co-worker overall, this is something to keep an eye on.
--
For what it’s worth, you have done nothing to feel guilty for here. Your co-worker’s attempts to guilt-trip you are a reflection of his immaturity, not anything you did wrong. At this point, you have made a good faith effort to deal with the matter on your own, and now it is time for your employer to deal with your co-worker directly.
I hope you will share an update with us, if you are willing. Hopefully management deals with your co-worker swiftly and that this situation has a good outcome.
For further reading on this topic, I recommend checking out the website Ask a Manager, where Alison Green runs an advice column specifically answering these types of workplace questions (I actually think this would be a great question to submit to her, if you wanted to). I googled Ask a Manager + coworker boundaries and found a few examples.
In the first linked letter, Green wrote, "And you didn’t fuck up the boundary. You treated him like a normal person who would follow normal social conventions, until he revealed that he wasn’t, and by that point he had already slipped by the boundary."
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 1:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
From what I have read, you have done a good job of asserting your boundaries and your co-worker appears to be intentionally ignoring them. At this stage, it becomes a matter for your employer to address with your co-worker.
I think sending your manager a follow-up email detailing everything you have shared with us about your co-worker’s behavior towards you is a solid plan. His behavior is excessive, boundary-crossing, and not normal workplace behavior. This man runs into your office every time you sneeze, for crying out loud.
By including all of this information in an email, you are creating a paper-trail, which is beneficial for several reasons:
1. While you may be on the fence about whether your coworker is more "creepy" or "clueless", having prior documentation of his behavior ready to go if he leans more "creepy" will work in your favor if you need to escalate this matter to HR. If, after being appraised of your co-worker’s specific behavior, your manager does not fully shut this man’s behavior down, then you already have everything in written form to forward to HR.
The specifics you listed above are great examples for documentation purposes: "he made a joke about me "sucking" my waterbottle and I contacted my manager and told her that I was uncomfortable and needed to move desks. That same day, before I moved, he said "your suffering brings me pleasure" (when I was expressing frustration with a task) and "have a wet night""
These types of comments are forms of sexual harassment, which in an American workplace would be a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. AKA, the type of behavior savvy employers would want to address promptly, lest they be hit with a lawsuit later down the line.
2. You are establishing that this is part of a pattern of behavior. What sticks out to me is that even though your co-worker apologized after making the first joke, he continued to make similar jokes, which suggests he was aware his behavior was inappropriate but made the choice to continue with it anyway.
You wrote: "Both times he immediately apologized and said he shouldn't have said that, and I agreed. Later, I told him to not make those kind of jokes around me and he did stop"
This is good example of boundary-setting on your part. You expressed initial discomfort with your co-worker’s jokes, and then you followed up with him to directly request he stop making them around you.
3. Your co-worker is interfering with your ability to do your job properly, and regardless of whether there was sexual harassment involved, the description you have given us of his behavior makes it sound like he is interrupting you constantly, and asking for a lot of assistance. If your co-worker is struggling that much with his work where he is regularly coming to you for training (which I am assuming from your letter is not part of your regular work duties, although I could be wrong), then that is something he needs to address with a manager, not you.
You wrote, “He started studying for a certification that I and other coworkers are studying for, even though its not related to his job. I suspect this is because he overheard us planning to study together outside of work. But I'm the only person he's asked to study with. I told him no, but that other (male) coworkers might be interested. He also asks me to train him on tasks that are only tangentially related to his job, which I keep putting off.”
This is a good example of boundary-setting on your part, where you declined to study with your co-worker, and suggested he might speak to other co-workers if he was looking for study partners.
4. I have some concerns about what you wrote here: "He also sat in his car after work seemingly watching the building and drove off when I looked out the window while closing up and saw his car. At this point I was really creeped out." and here: “He often lurks behind me on breaks.”
Potential red flag here – of course I as an outside observer have no way to know how long your co-worker was sitting in his car, or what the circumstances there were, and it could be a coincidence. Same with breaks – I do not know if there is only a small break room that you and your co-workers all congregate in, or if your co-worker is following you when you take breaks elsewhere, for instance. I also don’t know the size of your workplace or if you were alone in the building at the time that you saw your co-worker outside sitting in his car. However, given the level of excessive attention you have been getting from your co-worker overall, this is something to keep an eye on.
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For what it’s worth, you have done nothing to feel guilty for here. Your co-worker’s attempts to guilt-trip you are a reflection of his immaturity, not anything you did wrong. At this point, you have made a good faith effort to deal with the matter on your own, and now it is time for your employer to deal with your co-worker directly.
I hope you will share an update with us, if you are willing. Hopefully management deals with your co-worker swiftly and that this situation has a good outcome.
For further reading on this topic, I recommend checking out the website Ask a Manager, where Alison Green runs an advice column specifically answering these types of workplace questions (I actually think this would be a great question to submit to her, if you wanted to). I googled Ask a Manager + coworker boundaries and found a few examples.
In the first linked letter, Green wrote, "And you didn’t fuck up the boundary. You treated him like a normal person who would follow normal social conventions, until he revealed that he wasn’t, and by that point he had already slipped by the boundary."
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 1:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Keep in mind that the problem is not your failing to set boundaries, it's that this guy is failing to respect them. He has behaved inappropriately to all the boundary setting you have done so far, so it is reasonable to conclude that he would have behaved inappropriately if you had set boundaries earlier or differently.
The problem is not your boundary setting.
Document everything.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:15 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem is not your boundary setting.
Document everything.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:15 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking as someone who has had a few delusional crushes in my lifetime, here's what I see happening here: this guy likes you so much that the thought of those feelings not being returned is completely intolerable to him, and as a result he is mentally defending himself against any evidence that things are not okay between you. He's not picking up on hints because his emotions are making him believe what he wants to believe, like a conspiracy theorist who can't give up thinking the world is flat because doing so would mean admitting he is just kinda dumb.
I doubt he wants to hurt you. My guess is if he saw this thread he would be mortified and crushed. But just know that every tiny morsel of attention you give him is probably feeding the conspiracy theory. What to you seems like a casual hello is, to him, proof that he still has a shot.
It's not your fault that you've become the nucleus of some kind of weird friendship/romantic fantasy in this guy's head. But whatever else you do, you must stop engaging with him or implying that you might be open to training with him, etc., for your sake and his. He needs to realize that there is no hope.
posted by AAAA at 2:57 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I doubt he wants to hurt you. My guess is if he saw this thread he would be mortified and crushed. But just know that every tiny morsel of attention you give him is probably feeding the conspiracy theory. What to you seems like a casual hello is, to him, proof that he still has a shot.
It's not your fault that you've become the nucleus of some kind of weird friendship/romantic fantasy in this guy's head. But whatever else you do, you must stop engaging with him or implying that you might be open to training with him, etc., for your sake and his. He needs to realize that there is no hope.
posted by AAAA at 2:57 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
“He needs to realize that there is no hope.”
No. Nope. He needs to stop harassing this woman whether he has “hope” of a romantic relationship or not. She has to be able to engage with coworkers without worrying she’s feeding a delusion. And a delusion is no excuse for making sexual jokes at work.
posted by kapers at 3:24 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
No. Nope. He needs to stop harassing this woman whether he has “hope” of a romantic relationship or not. She has to be able to engage with coworkers without worrying she’s feeding a delusion. And a delusion is no excuse for making sexual jokes at work.
posted by kapers at 3:24 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
Of course that's what he needs to do. But the only way he will be able to do that is with some kind of external push. It would probably be easy to get him fired or dressed down by HR, and maybe that's exactly what OP should do. Only they would know how threatening this behaviour really is. But ignoring him might also work.
posted by AAAA at 3:45 PM on November 20, 2023
posted by AAAA at 3:45 PM on November 20, 2023
You are being so generous to him, and so not generous to yourself. You've described him as clingy, and you're worried about his career and feelings. Honestly, fuck that guy. He's behaving so inappropriately, and he knows it. He's not worried about your career or your feelings.
What happens to him professionally is a consequence of his behavior, not your behavior. He has created this situation. You have been dealing with the consequences, and it sucks.
I agree with folks who say it's time to start documenting this in neutral language (which is to say, describing his behavior, so not, "He seemed hurt," but "He cried," as one example). It's also time to start reframing this for yourself and your workplace as harassment, because it is.
It's time to behave towards him in a way that might make you feel like a stone cold bitch. In fact, please try to channel a stone cold bitch when you have any interactions with him. Do not be friendly. Do not smile. Say things like, "Do not stand behind me while I am in the break room," and "I am going to work and won't be talking any further" when he stops to talk to you. No chit chat.
Your friendship with the receptionist is irrelevant. You do not need to explain yourself or your friendships to this man or anyone at work. This man is testing and pushing your boundaries constantly.
Document. Go to HR. Immediately.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:12 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
What happens to him professionally is a consequence of his behavior, not your behavior. He has created this situation. You have been dealing with the consequences, and it sucks.
I agree with folks who say it's time to start documenting this in neutral language (which is to say, describing his behavior, so not, "He seemed hurt," but "He cried," as one example). It's also time to start reframing this for yourself and your workplace as harassment, because it is.
It's time to behave towards him in a way that might make you feel like a stone cold bitch. In fact, please try to channel a stone cold bitch when you have any interactions with him. Do not be friendly. Do not smile. Say things like, "Do not stand behind me while I am in the break room," and "I am going to work and won't be talking any further" when he stops to talk to you. No chit chat.
Your friendship with the receptionist is irrelevant. You do not need to explain yourself or your friendships to this man or anyone at work. This man is testing and pushing your boundaries constantly.
Document. Go to HR. Immediately.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:12 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, I think the "testing and pushing boundaries" piece is very important here. This is a common method harassers and abusers use to find likely targets who will not shut them down or report them. The way this guy started with crude jokes and then immediately apologized -- that's a pretty classic boundary test, and he escalated from there, as they do.
Now, smart harassers and abusers change targets when a target shuts them down the way you have. This nimrod? Is not smart. He's forced you to assert boundaries not just once, but repeatedly. Instead of stopping, he changes tactics and starts the test-and-push cycle again.
Please reject the "he's a harmless socially-awkward cinnamon roll" framing here. He is NOT harmless, he DOES know what he's doing, and he's the furthest thing in the universe from a cinnamon roll.
Document his behavior and report it, as many have already suggested.
posted by humbug at 5:22 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Now, smart harassers and abusers change targets when a target shuts them down the way you have. This nimrod? Is not smart. He's forced you to assert boundaries not just once, but repeatedly. Instead of stopping, he changes tactics and starts the test-and-push cycle again.
Please reject the "he's a harmless socially-awkward cinnamon roll" framing here. He is NOT harmless, he DOES know what he's doing, and he's the furthest thing in the universe from a cinnamon roll.
Document his behavior and report it, as many have already suggested.
posted by humbug at 5:22 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
This guy wouldn't be acting like this to male coworkers and we all know it. This is sexual harassment and stalking. I do agree with AAAA that this guy is taking literally any contact with you as hope for love and you need to have as little contact with him as you can get away with workwise, at the very least.
And yeah, HR/management needs to do something, as you shouldn't have to throw a screaming shit fit in his face yelling at him to go away and leave you alone even though well, he probably deserves it at this point. Also, to have it on record if he physically attacks you like some others were in this thread :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yeah, HR/management needs to do something, as you shouldn't have to throw a screaming shit fit in his face yelling at him to go away and leave you alone even though well, he probably deserves it at this point. Also, to have it on record if he physically attacks you like some others were in this thread :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you so much to everyone who replied- you've given me a lot to think about. I know where I stand now and how inappropriate his behavior has been. I was cold today and he left me alone all day and apologized for interrupting me after I told him I was busy. I'm still not ready to go to HR (in part because there is no real HR- just the boss's wife who has no qualifications). I'm one of the only woman in a male dominated field, word travels fast around the office, and I honestly don't have the energy to make it a "thing" right now (more than it already is). I have been keeping time stamped documentation in a personal email. If anything else happens though, it will be in an email to my manager before it's out of his mouth.
posted by fern at 6:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fern at 6:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him...
You really, really need to stop! Don't give him any encouragement. He's acting like a stalker, and you can't get rid of a stalker by being nice.
Pretty sure he's manipulating you with his "I'm hurt" and "poor lonely me" crap.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:15 PM on November 20, 2023
You really, really need to stop! Don't give him any encouragement. He's acting like a stalker, and you can't get rid of a stalker by being nice.
Pretty sure he's manipulating you with his "I'm hurt" and "poor lonely me" crap.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:15 PM on November 20, 2023
Isn't he already being spoken to about this? So hopefully that works. If not, yes, your documentation should help when you definitely go to HR, however weak "HR" is.
You got this. I'm sorry this happened to you. There's no excuse for that bullshit in an office and in 2023 everyone should know that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:42 PM on November 20, 2023
You got this. I'm sorry this happened to you. There's no excuse for that bullshit in an office and in 2023 everyone should know that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:42 PM on November 20, 2023
I go into his office to say hi sometimes even though I am uncomfortable being around him...
To put this in a different light, which may help you ignore your 'make nice' instincts: when you do this, you are acting out the expectation imposed by our gendered society, that women should always perform the emotional labor of smoothing things over. Of - course- you feel compelled to prevent him from feeling bad, you're a woman in .... earth, you've been trained to do that since birth. And that puts every woman into an impossible situation, where you're damned if you do cold-shoulder him, and damned if you don't.
Work on being consistently cool to him. In addition to all of the above advice.
posted by Dashy at 5:26 AM on November 21, 2023
I'm still not ready to go to HR (in part because there is no real HR- just the boss's wife who has no qualifications). I'm one of the only woman in a male dominated field, word travels fast around the office,
Oh boy, have I been there. The way to do this when the owner is HR is to frame it as financial risk to the company. I warned a previous CEO that the situation she'd been tolerating was textbook sexual harassment according to all the trainings she and others had required of me as an employee. And that, from those trainings, it was my understanding the company's ownership structure might be sued out of existence if they had prior knowledge of it. I literally just repeated words from the trainings. I avoided adding any feelings about it. I made sure to write as if she couldn't possibly know what's going on, or she would have already stepped in to mitigate the risk to the company. The situation was handled shortly afterward.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:04 AM on November 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh boy, have I been there. The way to do this when the owner is HR is to frame it as financial risk to the company. I warned a previous CEO that the situation she'd been tolerating was textbook sexual harassment according to all the trainings she and others had required of me as an employee. And that, from those trainings, it was my understanding the company's ownership structure might be sued out of existence if they had prior knowledge of it. I literally just repeated words from the trainings. I avoided adding any feelings about it. I made sure to write as if she couldn't possibly know what's going on, or she would have already stepped in to mitigate the risk to the company. The situation was handled shortly afterward.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:04 AM on November 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My God, go to HR.
posted by underclocked at 2:13 AM on November 20, 2023 [42 favorites]