Does where you receive your PhD matter more than your master's?

October 17, 2023 2:41 PM

Hi all, I am a Canadian graduate student studying online at The University of Edinburgh, one of the world's best universities and quite respected. Would the prestige, ranking, and department matter more where one's PhD was completed? I am hoping to pursue a PhD at McGill, if I can get in, but also uWaterloo, uVictoria, and McMaster, which are slightly lower ranked than McGill.

Would it look bad to pursue a PhD at a lower-ranked university? Or does it not really matter when it comes to academia? I know I'll have a good name from uEdinburgh, but not sure if that is enough, or if most academics care about where you get the PhD more?

posted by RearWindow to Education (23 answers total)

I think you'll get better answers if you add some detail. What are planning to do having completed your PhD? What is your field?
posted by HoraceH at 2:52 PM on October 17, 2023

Response by poster: @HoraceH I'm Hoping to make it into academia if I can. Fallback would be policy/government/non-profit work, but really want to land it in academia if I can in Canada. Political Science and International Development.
posted by RearWindow at 2:53 PM on October 17, 2023

Where you get your PhD will matter much more than your master's, but even more than that, it'll matter who your advisor is and what sort of connections they have. If you plan to go into academia, a PhD is really more an apprenticeship for a very specialized career and what matters is how good your advisor is at setting you up in that field. If you're in a field where a PhD is useful for industry, that's less true, but the importance of prestige will vary much more by field then.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 2:55 PM on October 17, 2023 [33 favorites]

On top of what matildatakesovertheworld said, if you're looking for an academic career than rankings are also way less important than the reputation of the individual department within the field. Have a look at a sampling of departments you might hope to work in. Where did those faculty members get their degrees?
posted by col_pogo at 3:02 PM on October 17, 2023 [12 favorites]

Academics get hired based on the quality of their research record and ongoing research program, their teaching ability, and their "service" contributions to the discipline, usually weighted in that order. The prestige of one's PhD institution (let alone one's Master's institution) is never enough to "land it" in academia.
posted by heatherlogan at 4:58 PM on October 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

Academia also tends to be cutthroat. You should keep this in mind as you consider your situation as dispassionately as you can and figure out what your chances are of getting where you need to be.
posted by doomsey at 5:03 PM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: @heatherlogan While that may be true, I noticed that almost all of the McGill Political Science Professors studied at Ivy League universities, Oxbridge, top UK universities, and top Canadian universities like U of T, UBC, and McGill. I imagine where one obtains their PhD is somewhat important.
posted by RearWindow at 5:24 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

no, it has much more to do with what they did during their PhDs (and after). heatherlogan is correct—rankings mean nothing*, finding the right advising fit for you so you can be best prepared for the job market is everything

*in Ontario, performance-based metrics (including global rankings and bibliometric indicators) account for the majority of provincial funding. Keep in mind that admissions into PhD programs are heavily constrained by available funding.
posted by avocet at 5:38 PM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

I was recently told by a tenured professor of classics at a top 50 university that there are only 5 schools where a classics PhD comes with the prospect of becoming a professor in the field. They're exceptions of course, but if he has any students who are serious about wanting to teach, he makes it clear they need to go to one of those five schools.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:52 PM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

From a US-based family member who won a very prestigious scholarship to do postgrad study in the UK: UK credentials may actively hinder your ability to get into North American schools.
posted by scruss at 6:35 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: @scruss I think if they are very prestigious and top UK universities, it would not matter. I know McGill and uEdinburgh have a connection with student exchanges, and uEdinburgh is one of the most prestigious and respected in the world, so I think it should not be an impediment to applying to McGill, hopefully.
posted by RearWindow at 6:47 PM on October 17, 2023

Best answer: Does "making it in academia" mean you would like to teach and research as a professor? This matters because "making it in academia" depends on many factors.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 7:13 PM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

The most important thing for you to focus on at this point is developing the kernel of a PhD research proposal for your applications, as that is far more important than the ranking of your university when it comes to PhD admissions.
posted by avocet at 7:14 PM on October 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

Echoing what others have said--ranking of the university is essentially irrelevant when it comes to PhD programs. It's all dependant on your subject, and often on your particular subfield. Yes, good universities often have a wide array of good departments, but just about every subject will have some top tier departments at universities that would surprise you. Conversely, there are some generally very good universities where Department X is only okay.

My particular subfield had a fairly large presence in Canada and many people did US PhDs and got Canadian postdocs or vice versa. That means a large percentage of the applicant pool didn't do a master's, so you can't care where they did it. Now, ymmv if your subject is focused on Canada to the point that virtually everyone doing a PhD does so in Canada, but in that case you need to be extremely realistic about how many faculty positions exist.
posted by hoyland at 7:26 PM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

Enough with the equivocating. Where you get your PhD will be the first thing academic hiring boards see, and departments gain prestige by having people from highly reputable universities. Most people looking at a department from outside aren't going to care what the faculty did for a Masters or what their PhD work was; they're going to count up the number Ivy League degrees on faculty and make judgements on that.

There's plenty more that you'll have to do to stand out from all those other Ivy League candidates and get hired, but a PhD from a top flight university is a highly valuable piece of paper by itself.

(I come from a highly academic family and have seen this stuff play out ad nauseum)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:21 PM on October 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

Just a brief note to say that I was entangled in academia for far too long, myself; had other long-standing interactions with academics (family, previous relationships), and I am - for my sins, apparently - married to an academic at what I think most would consider a top university (not Harvard, but not too far down from that).

I don't agree with with several above have said. I do think it's very important where you do your PhD, and how prestigious it is - both the prestige of the individual department, as well as the prestige of the university in general. I completely agree with Tell Me No Lies. While how much it matters I believe is somewhat field-specific (my impression is that it might matter less in, say, medicine, and more in, say, the humanities), my distinct sense is that it matters at least somewhat in every field, and a whole lot in a lot of fields. At least in my husband's field, I know for a fact that are only a few schools that his faculty will realistically consider hiring from (like, literally 6 or 7, globally), without very unusual circumstances. They like to tout their hires from Ivies and Oxbridge, etc.: being able to publicly brag about the shininess of their hires is essentially the point of doing the hiring, in spite of lofty words about furthering human knowledge. And at least in my former academic field, even Edinburgh would put you at a disadvantage in terms of applying for academic jobs (not to say Edinburgh isn't an excellent school, but simply that it's not Yale or Cambridge or whatever, although YMMV somewhat). Academic pedigree and prestige are very much the coin of the realm, and academia is one of the snobbiest and most superficial atmospheres that I have ever encountered. This isn't to say that you don't also need a cracking PhD thesis idea, a supportive and powerful PhD advisor/committee, publications in top journals during your PhD, getting buzz about your ideas at important conferences, research grants, or any of the other things alluded to above. However there's no denying that going to a very prestigious school helps you enormously: it's the first thing that people see, and your CV may well be thrown in the garbage out on that alone. In fact, academia is so competitive that you typically have to have all of the above: there are typically at least a couple hundred applicants per job, if not more, at least half of whom are perfect on paper. My own advice would be emphatically not to do a PhD unless you get funded somewhere very prestigious. (Actually, my own advice is not to do a PhD at all - I think for the vast majority it is a mistake, and immorally supports what is effectively a glorified MLM scam - but you can read previous comments of mine if you're interested in dissuasion). I don't know all that much about Canadian academia or PoliSci, so I'm agnostic about the relative ranking of McGill versus the other universities you mention, and whether it makes sense to consider those specific others. And while it is somewhat field-specific, I'm pretty sure Polisci isn't an exception here. (I TAed with a couple of Polisci PhD students at the end of their degree, and so heard quite a bit about how that particular sausage gets made.)

Anyway, I say this not to discourage you but to make you think about whether this is what you really want. If so, it's worth doing right, because it's a massive investment of your time and your energy. Feel free to message me if I can advise further: I have experience with both US and UK academia.
posted by ClaireBear at 8:54 PM on October 17, 2023 [16 favorites]

Yes. Where you study your PhD matters more than where you do your masters. In your discipline there are probably a small number of universities where you can get a PhD and an academic job in the humanities. It should not be very difficult to work out which ones they are - look at early career academics and see where they did their PhDs. These are the prestigious departments in your discipline. You will need to go to one of those universities to have the best chance of landing a job.

You will find it very, very difficult to get an academic job regardless of where you do a PhD. You will find find it almost impossible if you go to a different and less prestigious school.

If your fall back career is something in industry where a PhD is a net positive, you will find this much easier if you pick a PhD topic that easily translates into something people actively recruit for and you go to a university that is generally perceived as prestigious in the country in which you want to work.

I do not think you should do a PhD.
posted by plonkee at 2:08 AM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

One of the points of being at uEdinburgh is to learn the discipline and make the connections that will lead you to your next step. It’s probably best to lean into that right now and get those answers from those inside your discipline.

That said, I don’t think where you do your Masters is as important as your PhD. if you’re planning to stay in Canada for International Development U of T and UBC both make more sense, rankings-wise on both the THE and QS scales. But again, your best answers will come from experts in your field.

Incidentally, it is not just snobbery - I mean, it is, but largely it’s about research prestige and research dollars, at least that’s my baby understanding. But again these are questions you should be talking to insiders about, because academia is about insider knowledge.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:55 AM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

Clarifying my earlier answer: the professors whose bios you're lurking got the job because of what they did during their PhDs and after that distinguished themselves within a very competitive field. If you don't have that track record of research and teaching, which may include a book deal in hand (as many of my soc sci PhD pals had before hitting the job market), the ranking will not matter.
posted by avocet at 5:08 AM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

NTT scientist here. I believe that in most fields pedigree — of department and people, not just institution, although they will be related — is necessary but not sufficient. My PhD advisor was hot stuff and only some of her progeny went on to the tenure track, but those that did landed good spots. YMMV.
posted by eirias at 5:51 AM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Most academics do not care at all where you got your Master's, and care more about what you've done than where you got your Ph.D. In a specific echelon of academia, pedigree matters a lot for hiring, but if you're open to less prestigious tracks within the profession, a fancy pedigree can actually get in the way, leading to the perception that you're "too fancy" for certain jobs. All of this is to say that it's far more nuanced than rankings (especially rankings of entire universities, rather than departments within a field) can express, and you should think carefully about why each department might or might not be a good fit for you, rather than assuming that it's a numbers game.

Lots of good advice here, but please especially take avocet's to heart.
posted by dizziest at 7:50 AM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

I agree with the advice here - your masters won't matter much if at all when applying to academic jobs post-PhD. And you can do everything right (top PhD program, famous advisor, good publications, ample networking, strong thesis) and still not get an academic job, so plan accordingly. And yes, it's less about university rankings than department/program rankings, and making sure your future references are big names in the field.
posted by coffeecat at 1:33 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm a political science professor, but in the US. I've been on I-don't-want-to-think-about-how-many search committees and have reviewed thousands of applicants. It is conceivable some of this may differ in the Canadian market, but in the US:

Where you did your MA doesn't matter. At all. Nobody cares, don't bring it up except as a line on your vita. If you got a good research question from there, great! We care about the research question. If you learned a good skill there, great! Use the skill. But nobody gives the slightest damn that you got that skill or question from Edinburgh.

For most schools you'd sent a job application to, only the phd matters, full stop, don't bring up anything else. In all seriousness, you'd sound like a giant weirdo if you mentioned it in a cover letter. The exceptions will be selective liberal arts colleges like (at the upper end) Haverford, who care about your phd school and your undergrad school because they want to hire people who really get their model.

In the US market, where you get your phd is tremendously important for several reasons, with that caveat that as long as your application is in front of a search committee, *departments* are respected or not, not universities. The university comes in, maybe, later on insofar as it can (apparently) sometimes be easier to sell a dean or provost on an applicant from an ivy league school than one from Rochester or Ohio State, and this might get used earlier in the decision process to break a tie.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:24 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]