Dealing with a defensive ASD boyfriend

October 13, 2023 7:15 PM

I made this post recently about negotiating relationship status with the man I'm dating who has ASD and you gave great advice. Today we had a conflict and I felt like he was really defensive right away (not the first time)--those conversations make me feel crazy, and I know they're no fun for him too. Those of you familiar with ASD dating (from either end), can you help me retool these conversations?

I've been having a horrible week. Like, big problems with health and PTSD, and all sorts of out-of-nowhere drama. We'd agreed I'd just let him know directly if something's up and I need support, and I did. Then texted again, and again. (His ringer is always off.)

Yesterday I wrote "things here are really bad and I need your support." Nothing. This morning I wrote "You said that you just wanted me to tell you flat out if I need something, and I've been doing that. I don't know what else I can do.

He finally called and, unsurprisingly, had misunderstood my messages. He thought "things are really bad and I need your support" meant "looking forward to seeing you tomorrow." I point out that he could have asked and he said he could have but kinda brushed that off.

I was still unhappy with him and still going through all the crap here, and he started in on why didn't I say "Come over when you can" in my text, etc. I tried moving to a place of "Let's focus o what we both want" and we established that "call me when you get this" will be the next phrase used. I wished he'd apologized and then asked me about my bad week, but instead everything got confused and I felt crazy right away.

We have been able to troubleshoot a lot of the problems we've had, but this one is still thorny because it involves working with defensiveness which makes it really hard to work through. I'm not saying I handle these things perfectly, but that defensiveness comes up every time we have a conflict like that.

I would love any tips on dismantling that kind of thing and focus on the problem. I feel kind of stuck that he asks me to be direct and then I am direct and get shut down. I have a feeling this has come up before for many people. Thank you if you have any ideas to contribute.

posted by mermaidcafe to Human Relations (24 answers total)

Response by poster: Thanks. I can understand all of that. We agreed for me to be more specific going forward.

His tone can be defensive—what bothered me is that it seemed like the actual issue, my having a lot of bad stuff on me— was second to him finding things I did wrong. That’s the part that hurts. It makes me feel less open to talk about things, like what had been going on.

It’s really hard sometimes to step out of my own crisis and find the right way to express things
to him. I often worry that the situation will turn back around to be about one small aspect of my communication. Like I’m not allowed to make a mistake even if things are at their worst. I know I’m the one feeling that. He hasn’t said it , but I feel that way so often and haven’t been able to tell him.
posted by mermaidcafe at 8:22 PM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

Adding a bit to sm1tten's response in that "things are really bad and I need your support" is quite vague as "support" can mean so many things to different people - phone call, hug, food, talking things out, going on a walk, space and time, distance, .... What specific "support" did you need in that moment? I would communicate that next time. In the NVC communication framework requests need to be clear, specific, and use positive action language whenever possible.

If possible, check out some NVC communication workshops together for fun and personal growth to help establish some basic skills and framework for each other. I think it could really help both people.
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 8:55 PM on October 13, 2023

I have no official diagnosis, but I have been accused of being callous, unfeeling and not understanding. I have learned two things that I think apply to every situation and have found if I incorporate these two things, I am much better off than if I waited for explicit instructions or specific requests.

One, unless there is a specific day and time mentioned, time is always, NOW. Two, requests do not always come in the form of a question. Often, they are disguised as someone expressing their feelings. "I am upset because of work" is not a simple statement of fact. It requires a follow-up of some sort. "How can I help?" or even "That sounds terrible. I am sorry." (And, "Well that sucks" is not a great response for most people I learned the hard way.)
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:00 PM on October 13, 2023 [10 favorites]

You sent up a distress signal and he ignored it. It’s ok to move on.
posted by cakelite at 12:05 AM on October 14, 2023 [25 favorites]

I agree that you shouldn't have to word things perfectly or be ignored. For me, one half of the solution is for you to be more specific in your request. The other half is for you to teach him how to read your natural style better. For example, if you say "I need support" and he isn't sure what support means, HE SHOULD ASK. He needs to realize that sometimes he doesn't actually know what you mean and not assume. Together, you can help him figure out what situations are most likely to be unclear for him. When it happens, it is then his job to ask just as much as it is your job to try to be clear. If each person tries to help the other one out, you are more likely to find a way to meet and the middle and feel good about it.

If you try that and still doesn't work, or if the process of having to spelling things out in the relationship is too much, then you need to decide if you want to deal with this pattern for the rest of your life. It may be that this otherwise nice guy can't give you love and support in the way that works for you. In that case, you are both better off moving on and finding partners that are happy with you the way you are (and for him to have someone who is happy with him the way he is)
posted by metahawk at 12:37 AM on October 14, 2023 [8 favorites]

Could you borrow a page from the world of productivity/work and use the SMART goal framework when you are asking for something? The elements are:

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Relevant
Time-bound

This could take your request out of the emotional/ overwhelm/ frustration space for you and gives you the tools to build something that your partner can easily understand (without telepathy or mindreading etc etc).

Here are some examples of SMART goals (as well as some vague and ill-defined goals: 1, 2, 3.
posted by lulu68 at 1:02 AM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

People can be on the spectrum and also be self-absorbed jerks (I certainly can be). You DO NOT need to just give things a pass if they upset you. Regardless of the intentions or the neurology involved or blahblahblah, if you don’t like the way this relationship feels or looks, or how much energy and thought you have to give to things just to get the emotional support you need, then you can just leave. I’m on the spectrum myself btw. No one should feel like they have to walk on eggshells for the rest of their life, or plan out every word and verbalize (or even know!) every supportive need in advance.

The most helpful things my partner ever did were things I couldn’t have come up with in a million years. It’s okay to not want to be the director (or even communication director) of your own support needs. You’re allowed to not like this or want your whole future to look like this.
posted by asimplemouse at 1:47 AM on October 14, 2023 [38 favorites]

One thing that struck me in your question is that you mention his ringer always being off. I get the impression that you were trying desperately to reach him, but he was not available to you.

I've had a somewhat similar situation and surprisingly, it led to a relationship improvement. I think the key was that we were able to avoid talking about what the other did and talk instead about what we needed. From there, we could go to expressing how important it is to each of us to give the other what they need.

More generally, I think that various types of neurodiversity can make it harder to avoid pitfalls in a conversation, such as getting defensive. If you can manage to steer the conversation in such a way that it naturally flows towards finding a solution together, I think you'll both get more out of it. (That does put an additional burden on you, sadly.)

For the 'not being allowed to make mistakes' part (which is related to that burden), that is both true and untrue. It is true in the sense that compared to you, he is less able to compensate when you phrase things in a less constructive way, either because you're frustrated or because you were focused on something else. It's also untrue, because it would be unreasonable to expect you to never get frustrated and concentrate on every conversation like it's a chess match. I suspect that he doesn't expect this either! (Even if he did, you can choose not to expect it of yourself.)

One more thing: I get that it's painful when he tells you what you could have done differently to get a better outcome. I would wager that he's not doing this to blame you, even though it's natural (for neurotypical people) to interpret it that way. If he recognizes that you are much better equipped to prevent this thing from happening, making these suggestions might actually be a (overly) rational approach…
posted by demi-octopus at 2:05 AM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

I totally get why this left you feeling unsupported. I agree with the above point about his ringer being off - a specific request could be ‘don’t turn your ringer off for calls from me.’ You do need to ask for things in a way he can understand, but doing the extra work of having to figure out specifically how to phrase things when you’re having a crisis and in need of immediate support is a lot to navigate. If the conversation got so derailed by his confusion about your request, leaving the request unfulfilled, then your needs (support) aren’t being met and neither are his (specificity).

Is it possible to talk very specifically with him about what kinds of support you need in different general situations, and then categorise them into pre-agreed shorthand to make it easier on both of you, e.g. ‘If I text you Code Red it means I need immediate support in the form of your physical presence, hugs, listening and being in my corner’, ‘Code yellow means I’m having a tough time and would appreciate Xyz but don’t need you to come over right away.’ If a system like this would make sense to him, maybe doing some of the work of being very specific and actionable could be done ahead of time in this way, so that you’re not having to communicate perfectly when you’re completely overwhelmed.
posted by chives at 3:27 AM on October 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

Also: your question mentions that you have PTSD, which I think is an important consideration here. Coming up with highly structured and clear requests just isn’t going to be possible for you in a situation where you’re triggered, or in freeze mode, it’s going to be much more difficult to set aside your stress when it’s compounded by PTSD in order to come up
with the exact right phrasing in your request for support. It would be good if you have other people in addition to your partner who you can turn to for support as well. I think this is a case of both of you needing adjustments and accommodations to be able to communicate effectively and it’s important to make sure he understands that he isn’t the only one in the relationship whose brain works differently to ‘the perfectly normal neurotypical brain.’ It’s up to both of you to find ways to work around these challenges, not just on you to be absolutely perfect in all of your communication in every situation.
posted by chives at 3:43 AM on October 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

My husband does not have ASD, but as a long-married person I want to put in that that kind of mutual understanding can also develop over time (and after multiple arguments about this topic).

25 years ago, I was incredulous that I had to break it to him that sometimes, when people complain, they don't want solutions (shocking revelation!), they want understanding and validation.

Yesterday, I had a terrible day. When I came home, I ground out a brief explanation. He nodded and watched me angrily stir my soup. "Can we watch something and have a can of beer so I can at least have a nice evening?" I blurted out. Husband leaps into action!
Right as he was turning on the tv, I realised he'd been wanting to watch the football game. "That's okay, there's always a second half", he said cheerfully. I had a great evening.

And then I realised that somehow, this is how we operate now. Somehow our patterns changed to this. I ask for what I want, secure in the knowledge that he'll be happy to supply it. He knows I'll tell him and don't expect him to guess whether I want advice, a hug, distraction or whatever (he'll ask if it's unclear).

I'm not saying that this is how everyone should operate. I'm saying that a closer understanding between you and a mutual approach can and will develop, if both people are willing and in good faith.
posted by Omnomnom at 4:06 AM on October 14, 2023 [23 favorites]

Code words can do a lot of heavy lifting when you're lacking strength. Just agree that "code orange" means that, for example, your BF should shut the fuck up with the analysis and switch to sympathy/compassion, and "code red" means stop what you are doing and come here right now because i need your silent support and companionship. Or whatever simple instructions that will help you get out what you need and inform him of how to fulfill the needs.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:09 AM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

To address the defensiveness, people with this flavor of communication dysregulation have spent a lot of time being told they're Doing It Wrong, and I can pretty much promise you he's experiencing internal panic about being the local champion fuckup again when he wants to do the right thing (both to avoid the scolding and probably because he likes you).

These conversations - and pretty much all relationships require these conversations - are always shit while the topic is still hot. You really have to work this stuff out in calm, teamwork-oriented problem-solving sessions when there is no immediate threat or tension. "Let's work out a system!" is a good topic for couples (and parents and kids, and coworkers, etc) to turn to on a regular basis. Let's work out a system for housework, let's work out a system for talking about hard and fraught things, let's work out a system for evacuating the house in the case of a fire, let's work out a system for getting each other through individual hard times and let's talk about how we can communicate that information.

But just keep in mind that the time for working out the system is NOT when the smoke alarm is going off. You have to make the plan, and even practice the plan, so you've got the plan in your pocket already when the moment for it arrives.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:09 AM on October 14, 2023 [20 favorites]

Potentially some ask vs. guess going on here.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:14 AM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

I am autistic and, like many women, have put in a lot of work to learn how to be supportive in relationships. Your partner, like many men, has not. It's up to you whether you want to tolerate that. I will note that while claiming you did not communicate clearly, he made an enormous leap by assuming your explicit request for support meant "I'll see you tomorrow." You communicated fairly directly, and instead of following up for clarification if he needed it, he chose to interpret it in a not-super-logical way which meant he had to do nothing.
posted by metasarah at 8:09 AM on October 14, 2023 [48 favorites]

He read “things here are really bad and I need your support,” then put the phone down and went about his business. It would be hard for me to get that image out of my head.
posted by dianeF at 8:15 AM on October 14, 2023 [35 favorites]

I understand that some people have difficulties reading context clues, but as far as context clues go, I think ""getting a text that "things are bad" + lots of missed calls/repeated failed attempts to reach me = urgent need to talk" is one that even the most ungifted in that department can learn to watch out for. So I think there should be hope if he's willing.

Whether he's willing or not, however, only time can tell. Of course his defensiveness is not exactly an encouraging sign in that regard, but it's no guarantee of a doomed cause either. Most people get defensive when they are confronted with their fuck-ups, no matter how diplomatically you phrase it. Even, and maybe even especially, when deep down they kinda agree that they fucked up. But that's a deeply unpleasant realization, and it often takes a while to process. Sometimes you just need to give them that time.

So I think you handled this exactly right, because it's really all that you can do. Don't dwell too much on the missed opportunity, focus on what you need in the future. Accept that these conversations are hard, but important, and that there's no way to make them any easier. Accept that the situation can't be fixed on the spot, and that you both have to sit in your discomfort for a while. And then you have to wait and see.

I know some people who would never admit a mistake, but might quietly try not to repeat it. Of course being accountable would be even better, but ultimately, "not repeating it" (or at least making some effort not to repeat it/repeat it less frequently) to me, would be the more important part.

In the moment, it might give you some immediate relief to hear an apology, or a promise. But in the end, these things are just words, and you have no guarantee that they'll be translated into actions. So you're back to square one anway, wait and see.

I wouldn't see a defensive reaction and the other partner's refusal to explicitely validate my point as an automatic sign that the conversation was unproductive. I would wait and see. I would, however, not wait forever.
posted by sohalt at 8:53 AM on October 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

It sounds like you are looking for a relationship with someone who will text you back on a regular basis (which is really a pretty basic expectation in the year 2023). It sounds like that's not something he is interested in, for whatever reason (unless I'm misreading your question, if he did reply to your texts but you weren't getting the response you wanted, then it might help to add those details here). That seems like a pretty fundamental incompatibility.
posted by ssg at 11:23 AM on October 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

You sent up a distress signal and he ignored it. It’s ok to move on.

I just want to address this comment. Based on what you said he did not ignore you. He thought you meant you would see him tomorrow, and he didn't need to do anything now.

As someone on the spectrum that would have been my initial assumption as well, except now I've been married for a long time I've learnt through many painful arguments that that assumption is not correct. Now my relationship is much more similar to what Omnomnm described, after a lot of effort and work from both me and my wife.

Being told that he is ignoring you when he absolutely did not do that is exactly the sort of painful, hurtful shit that autistic people spend their lives being told just because we take things literally, struggle to read nuance or hints, and tend to be very "ask" oriented on the ask vs guess spectrum.

cakelite is right that it's ok to move on, but move on (if you want to) because you and he are too different for you to work together. There's lot's of great advice here and he definitely needs to work on things from his side if you do stay together, but regardless I implore you not to tell him you feel he's ignored you. That would be wilfully hurtful and just reinforce to him that no matter what his intentions, he's going to get it wrong so he may as well not bother.
posted by underclocked at 11:52 AM on October 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

> I point out that he could have asked and he said he could have but kinda brushed that off.

This right here tells you that he does not care about your feelings and needs. He doesn't want to be better. He doesn't want to stop hurting you. He doesn't care how you experience his actions and reactions. He just needs you to shut up and stop bothering him, so he will say anything, no matter how unreasonable, to get you off his back without him having to change anything about the way he does things.

This means telling you to constantly do something different than what you did, and making his lack of caring into always your fault. If anything was his fault he would have to take responsibility and do something different. He can't have that. It's always your fault

You can dress it up as him having ASD or him being a man or him not knowing any better or [insert palatable reason]. But the bottomline is that he doesn't give a shit about you, period. He has no interest in caring for you or about you.
posted by MiraK at 12:02 PM on October 14, 2023 [10 favorites]

My partner (40s M) and I are both on the spectrum, with wildly different ways of understanding the world, which can include our understandings / models of each other.

Often when we get misaligned on something, we end up explicitly building if-then behavior rules to adjust our models of each other: if X happens, then do Y. It isn't perfect, but it has helped. Sometimes we have to dismantle old rules to establish new ones, but we are both onboard to do it and experiment.
posted by chiefthe at 12:18 PM on October 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

I implore you not to tell him you feel he's ignored you.

If that's how OP feels, that's how OP feels. If he cares about her and their relationship, he will want to be told (in as nonaccusatory a way as possible) how his actions make her feel so that they can figure out together how he can avoid hurting her. (Obviously this comes with the expectation that she will work with him towards reciprocity with respect to his feelings, as well.) If a person is incapable of understanding more subtle and nuanced NT forms of communication, then they will have to be told things in a direct and straightforward fashion. Someone who doesn't get "things here are really bad and I need your support" (and doesn't even think "Hm, sounds not so great, maybe I'd better ask what this means!") needs very explicit discussion indeed.

You cannot be in a healthy adult relationship with someone who hurts your feelings and can't deal with hearing about it--even for the purposes of reconciliation and avoiding doing it again--because that might hurt them. You just can't. And someone who cannot, at least in the medium term, hear that they have hurt their partner and how they can try to avoid doing it in the future, will never be in an adult, equal relationship, because everybody hurts their partner (as well as other loved ones) from time to time and has to learn how to do better. They may not be a bad person at all, but you can't ethically be in a relationship if your reaction to being told you hurt your partner is "well I can't do anything right, so I give up."
posted by praemunire at 1:22 PM on October 14, 2023 [36 favorites]

Either of you could have handled this differently to a better result. But given that you started by saying "things are bad", that signals that you may be out of mental energy to come up with solutions, so I think it's on him to take a more proactive next step. Here are 3 ways this could have played out:

A. You could have explained more concretely what action you wanted from him.
Things are really bad and I need your support. Can you please come over tonight and help me talk through my anxiety?

or

B. He could have asked what action you wanted from him. This isn't an ideal solution because it throws the ball back at you, but it's better than no response!
YOU - Things are really bad and I need your support.
HIM - How can I help?

or

C. He could have helped you by offering options. If you tend to get overwhelmed or tongue tied this kind of specific prompting can be really helpful, sometimes moreso than an open-ended question like "how can I help".
YOU - Things are really bad and I need your support.
HIM - Would it help you to talk, or cuddle, work on the problem, or eat? I can help with (some options that work for his schedule and energy level) a phone call when I get off work at 10pm, or I can proofread your paper when I get home from work, or I can come over to cuddle at 10:30 tonight, or I could send you Chipotle right now. Would any of those help?

Again, given that you're the one in a crisis, I would expect him to step up and do C. It's ok if he didn't know this - ONCE. But if he cares about you, he should want to learn how to support you. In that case, talk him through this and tell him it's what you want next time.

Maybe when you're less tapped out, you could also make a written list of ways he could help you, and that way he knows what kinds of things to ask about or offer unasked. For example, here are some things that would help me personally feel supported:

Bring me a healthy snack (carrots, apple slices with peanut butter, cheese string)
Bring me a large glass of room temperature water
Make me a tea if it's before 3pm
Initiate a cuddle that lasts at least 10 minutes and doesn't have sexual energy in it
Put toothpaste on my toothbrush and leave it on the bathroom counter for me
Tidy up the room I'm in so it's not messy in the direction I'm looking. When I try to help you, tell me not to get up.
Sit beside me in a calming way (no urgent energy) and ask me what task is looming that you can help with
Clean the kitchen and bathroom so my mind feels clearer
Turn off overhead lights and turn on lamps so the room feels more cozy and pleasant
Make your body language small, slow, calming, and on my level - don't stand over me or stare at me
Don't offer me choices, don't ask permission, just quietly jump in and help
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:30 AM on October 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

I wished he'd apologized

I struggle with apologies. It helps me to have general rules for interactions, and this book on apologies has been helpful: Why Won't You Apologize? by Harriet Lerner. The audiobook is helpful to hear the tone of voice.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 2:19 PM on October 17, 2023