Boundaries for everyone! Even you, dad
July 11, 2023 9:56 AM Subscribe
I'm a recovering people pleaser and my family is driving me bananas. Do I need to just say "no" to everything?
I am in my mid-thirties and a recovering people pleaser. My mom had Borderline Personality Disorder and passed almost five years ago. I was her "person." As both a child and an adult, my role was to be her caretaker, her confidant, and her problem solver. She lived on her own but was not fully mentally or emotionally functional, and struggled with money her entire adult life. I loved her and miss her very much, but my day-to-day life when she was alive was a major struggle because if my time wasn't being monopolized by her physically, I was worrying about her.
I was in therapy for years as a teen/in college and I went back to it after she passed. I've made huge strides in identifying how growing up with my mom (and of course my own personality as well) made me a massive pushover who felt responsible for everyone around me. I was the quintessential people pleaser – I would drop everything to help someone else, always to the detriment of my own health and happiness.
In the last six months, especially, I've come a really long way in terms of learning how to say no and setting boundaries. This has been especially true with my dad and sister. I didn't realize it until my mom was gone, but despite the fact that they don't have the same mental health issues as her, they also rely on me heavily and regularly ask for/assume that I can help them with things, and despite the boundaries, they keep asking, and sometimes I still say yes. The thing is, I really want to say no to everything, but I feel like that's not okay. I don't know what "normal" is in terms of helping other people. Whenever I say yes to anything now, I feel extremely angry and resentful.
Some examples:
- I just spent three hours picking them up from the airport and dropping them off at their respective homes in the middle of my work day, after I just got home from the airport myself at 11pm last night and was up at 6am for work.
- Before they left for their trip, my sister asked me to pick my dad up and bring him to her house so they could go to the airport together (my dad does not drive due to permanent disabilities from a stroke). My dad texted me a few hours before I was due to get him to ask me if I could take him to get a haircut before taking him to my sister's. I told him no and he was very upset and complained to me about it multiple times that evening.
- My sister's husband messed up with the types of passports he got for their kids for the trip, and my sister called me from the airport asking me to help them with find new flights and adjust their travel plans.
- My sister texts me Google-able questions multiple times a day, like "why is my roaming service on my cell phone?" and "what time does this store open?"
When my sister called from the airport, she said (kind of snarkily) "I know you don't like to help me, but..." because I've been telling her no. But honestly at this point I feel like the only way to not grow to absolutely hateful and resentful of these people and to make myself happy is to go completely cold turkey on helping them with anything, so they learn that they don't have me to run to.
I guess what I'm looking for is the green's blessing that just outright say no to anything that I damn well please, especially (and even if) it's from a family member, and if anyone has similar experiences that they can share!
I am in my mid-thirties and a recovering people pleaser. My mom had Borderline Personality Disorder and passed almost five years ago. I was her "person." As both a child and an adult, my role was to be her caretaker, her confidant, and her problem solver. She lived on her own but was not fully mentally or emotionally functional, and struggled with money her entire adult life. I loved her and miss her very much, but my day-to-day life when she was alive was a major struggle because if my time wasn't being monopolized by her physically, I was worrying about her.
I was in therapy for years as a teen/in college and I went back to it after she passed. I've made huge strides in identifying how growing up with my mom (and of course my own personality as well) made me a massive pushover who felt responsible for everyone around me. I was the quintessential people pleaser – I would drop everything to help someone else, always to the detriment of my own health and happiness.
In the last six months, especially, I've come a really long way in terms of learning how to say no and setting boundaries. This has been especially true with my dad and sister. I didn't realize it until my mom was gone, but despite the fact that they don't have the same mental health issues as her, they also rely on me heavily and regularly ask for/assume that I can help them with things, and despite the boundaries, they keep asking, and sometimes I still say yes. The thing is, I really want to say no to everything, but I feel like that's not okay. I don't know what "normal" is in terms of helping other people. Whenever I say yes to anything now, I feel extremely angry and resentful.
Some examples:
- I just spent three hours picking them up from the airport and dropping them off at their respective homes in the middle of my work day, after I just got home from the airport myself at 11pm last night and was up at 6am for work.
- Before they left for their trip, my sister asked me to pick my dad up and bring him to her house so they could go to the airport together (my dad does not drive due to permanent disabilities from a stroke). My dad texted me a few hours before I was due to get him to ask me if I could take him to get a haircut before taking him to my sister's. I told him no and he was very upset and complained to me about it multiple times that evening.
- My sister's husband messed up with the types of passports he got for their kids for the trip, and my sister called me from the airport asking me to help them with find new flights and adjust their travel plans.
- My sister texts me Google-able questions multiple times a day, like "why is my roaming service on my cell phone?" and "what time does this store open?"
When my sister called from the airport, she said (kind of snarkily) "I know you don't like to help me, but..." because I've been telling her no. But honestly at this point I feel like the only way to not grow to absolutely hateful and resentful of these people and to make myself happy is to go completely cold turkey on helping them with anything, so they learn that they don't have me to run to.
I guess what I'm looking for is the green's blessing that just outright say no to anything that I damn well please, especially (and even if) it's from a family member, and if anyone has similar experiences that they can share!
Best answer: here's your permission.
If you don't want to just cold turkey, or feel like you won't be able to stick with it, I think it would be helpful to you though to have a think beforehand about what you're ok with and what you're not. This will help you respond in the moment without getting flustered. For instance:
- in the middle of workday: only if it is legit emergency (eg close family member is having a stroke)
- on a weekend: one errand under 2 hours to help your dad, if prearranged, per day [or whatever you think is reasonable]
- fixing anything your sister or her husband did: no
etc.
I think your sister and your dad's situations are a little different as your dad is impaired and your sister just sounds like she's used to pushing you around and relying on you. Like you can ascribe your dad's disappointment to him just not really understanding the circumstances of your life, maybe; and he may never quite get it. But your sister's attitude needs a major, swift adjustment.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:05 AM on July 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
If you don't want to just cold turkey, or feel like you won't be able to stick with it, I think it would be helpful to you though to have a think beforehand about what you're ok with and what you're not. This will help you respond in the moment without getting flustered. For instance:
- in the middle of workday: only if it is legit emergency (eg close family member is having a stroke)
- on a weekend: one errand under 2 hours to help your dad, if prearranged, per day [or whatever you think is reasonable]
- fixing anything your sister or her husband did: no
etc.
I think your sister and your dad's situations are a little different as your dad is impaired and your sister just sounds like she's used to pushing you around and relying on you. Like you can ascribe your dad's disappointment to him just not really understanding the circumstances of your life, maybe; and he may never quite get it. But your sister's attitude needs a major, swift adjustment.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:05 AM on July 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
It's ok to say no to your family.
But I would put some thought to your lines so you aren't feeling like the "bad guy" every time you say no, or second guessing yourself.
Does your sister drive? If she does, then you two need to split up dad's appointments and figure out if you'll alternate driving, types of appointments, or if you find a medical transport company and throw money at the problem. Similarly, it's nice to drop family at the airport but it's a nice treat, transit, uber, and towncars all exist anywhere within reasonable distance of an airport.
For random questions from your sister I'd just ignore them. If she expresses frustration just say "sorry, I was busy when you texted and figured you were just making conversation." If it's a genuine thing you're good at and you want to help "I can help you with this on Saturday afternoon, does 2 work?" is fine.
posted by Narrow Harbor at 10:18 AM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
But I would put some thought to your lines so you aren't feeling like the "bad guy" every time you say no, or second guessing yourself.
Does your sister drive? If she does, then you two need to split up dad's appointments and figure out if you'll alternate driving, types of appointments, or if you find a medical transport company and throw money at the problem. Similarly, it's nice to drop family at the airport but it's a nice treat, transit, uber, and towncars all exist anywhere within reasonable distance of an airport.
For random questions from your sister I'd just ignore them. If she expresses frustration just say "sorry, I was busy when you texted and figured you were just making conversation." If it's a genuine thing you're good at and you want to help "I can help you with this on Saturday afternoon, does 2 work?" is fine.
posted by Narrow Harbor at 10:18 AM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
As I see it you have two problems: you feel compelled to help and you feel compelled to manage everyone's feelings when you decline to help. Both are corrosive.
I would start by deciding what you are and are not willing to do. Give dad a ride a few times a week? Sure. Answer sister's inane questions that she can answer herself? Nope. Be as specific as you can here and really delineate for yourself what you are and are not willing to do.
Then, you let everyone know so that they can manage their own expectations. Tell Sister that you are not answering her Google questions anymore nor are you her travel agent. She is on her own from now on.
Tell dad that you can give him two rides per week. He will need to decide ahead of time where he wants to go and it has to fit within YOUR schedule.
Now comes the hard part: withstanding the blowback that will inevitably come. I think the most effective way to do this is to remind yourself in the moment of WHY you set this boundary. It is not to make others lives more difficult, it is to make YOUR life easier. Your needs are valid and should be honored just as much as or even more than those of your sister and your father. To me this seems like the part where you are most likely to give in because you may not inherently believe that your needs are just as valid. THEY ARE, THEY ARE, THEY ARE.
If you have the self-assuredness to remember that your needs are valid, then their complaints should flow off of you like water on a windshield. It is not about you it is about them recognizing that maybe they are asking too much but they cannot bear to take responsibility for that and instead turn it on you.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would start by deciding what you are and are not willing to do. Give dad a ride a few times a week? Sure. Answer sister's inane questions that she can answer herself? Nope. Be as specific as you can here and really delineate for yourself what you are and are not willing to do.
Then, you let everyone know so that they can manage their own expectations. Tell Sister that you are not answering her Google questions anymore nor are you her travel agent. She is on her own from now on.
Tell dad that you can give him two rides per week. He will need to decide ahead of time where he wants to go and it has to fit within YOUR schedule.
Now comes the hard part: withstanding the blowback that will inevitably come. I think the most effective way to do this is to remind yourself in the moment of WHY you set this boundary. It is not to make others lives more difficult, it is to make YOUR life easier. Your needs are valid and should be honored just as much as or even more than those of your sister and your father. To me this seems like the part where you are most likely to give in because you may not inherently believe that your needs are just as valid. THEY ARE, THEY ARE, THEY ARE.
If you have the self-assuredness to remember that your needs are valid, then their complaints should flow off of you like water on a windshield. It is not about you it is about them recognizing that maybe they are asking too much but they cannot bear to take responsibility for that and instead turn it on you.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I told him no and he was very upset and complained to me about it multiple times that evening.
Yessssss! This right here means it's working. You told him no and there was NOTHING he could do about it, except complain. You have all the power here.
You can't - and shouldn't - try and micromanage your family's reactions to your shiny new spine. Instead, see their grumbling as a proof that it's working and try and muster a secret stab of satisfaction each time.
More advice: when they ask you for a favour that's less than 24 hours, tell them sorry, you've already got plans/busy right now.
If it's more tham 24 hours, say you need to "check your calendar" and you'll call them back. This buys you the time to decide what you actually want to say yes to and what you don't. Do this every single time. Make it a habit.
It's not easy to pay attention to your wants and needs when you're not used to it! Like a muscle it needs practice. Literally ask yourself the question "if it were just up to me - if I needn't fear their reaction - what would I choose?" It gets easier.
My sister texts me Google-able questions multiple times a day
"No idea, what does Google say?"
And whatever she says, just say ok.
But listen, you have GOT to become comfortable with them thinking you're a villain now. You're flipping the script on them and they hate it. There's no way to stop being a people pleaser without family disapproving of your new "selfishness". There is nothing you can or should do to convince them that actually, you're a good person and you're doing the right thing. That's just how it goes. They'll get over it or die mad. It also means that you're free to quit trying.
You're free.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2023 [57 favorites]
Yessssss! This right here means it's working. You told him no and there was NOTHING he could do about it, except complain. You have all the power here.
You can't - and shouldn't - try and micromanage your family's reactions to your shiny new spine. Instead, see their grumbling as a proof that it's working and try and muster a secret stab of satisfaction each time.
More advice: when they ask you for a favour that's less than 24 hours, tell them sorry, you've already got plans/busy right now.
If it's more tham 24 hours, say you need to "check your calendar" and you'll call them back. This buys you the time to decide what you actually want to say yes to and what you don't. Do this every single time. Make it a habit.
It's not easy to pay attention to your wants and needs when you're not used to it! Like a muscle it needs practice. Literally ask yourself the question "if it were just up to me - if I needn't fear their reaction - what would I choose?" It gets easier.
My sister texts me Google-able questions multiple times a day
"No idea, what does Google say?"
And whatever she says, just say ok.
But listen, you have GOT to become comfortable with them thinking you're a villain now. You're flipping the script on them and they hate it. There's no way to stop being a people pleaser without family disapproving of your new "selfishness". There is nothing you can or should do to convince them that actually, you're a good person and you're doing the right thing. That's just how it goes. They'll get over it or die mad. It also means that you're free to quit trying.
You're free.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:27 AM on July 11, 2023 [57 favorites]
You might find this book helpful: The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want. (Disclosure: I work for the publisher.)
The author, Natalie Lue, has a ton of practical advice for navigating setting boundaries, including scripts and troubleshooting specific situations. She answers questions like "How do I start being boundaried with family when they expect me to be a certain way?" and "I'm really close with this person. Aren't boundaries and saying no going to ruin that?" I especially like this one:
"I said no to someone I don't normally say no to, and they cussed me out/cut me off/tried to make me feel really shitty about myself. What the hell?
"If someone flips their wig with you because you said no or because you prioritize taking care of your own boundaries and know your responsibilities, this is a sign that your no was overdue. The yes buffet is officially closed."
The author has a blog (Baggage Reclaim) and podcast (The Baggage Reclaim Sessions) as well—I'm not familiar with them, but there may be some helpful material there as well.
posted by timestep at 12:35 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
The author, Natalie Lue, has a ton of practical advice for navigating setting boundaries, including scripts and troubleshooting specific situations. She answers questions like "How do I start being boundaried with family when they expect me to be a certain way?" and "I'm really close with this person. Aren't boundaries and saying no going to ruin that?" I especially like this one:
"I said no to someone I don't normally say no to, and they cussed me out/cut me off/tried to make me feel really shitty about myself. What the hell?
"If someone flips their wig with you because you said no or because you prioritize taking care of your own boundaries and know your responsibilities, this is a sign that your no was overdue. The yes buffet is officially closed."
The author has a blog (Baggage Reclaim) and podcast (The Baggage Reclaim Sessions) as well—I'm not familiar with them, but there may be some helpful material there as well.
posted by timestep at 12:35 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got was do NOT resentfully agree to something. When you resentful agree to something you lose twice: you do something you don’t want to and you take on the emotional pain of that. When you say no, the other person doesn’t get what they want but you SHARE the emotional burden of that.
Another way to think about this: saying “no” isn’t free. The price you must be willing to pay, each time, is feeling the other person’s resentment. (They shouldn’t put that on you but you can’t control that)
posted by CMcG at 12:38 PM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Another way to think about this: saying “no” isn’t free. The price you must be willing to pay, each time, is feeling the other person’s resentment. (They shouldn’t put that on you but you can’t control that)
posted by CMcG at 12:38 PM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
You've asked for some perspective on level-setting, so: for the inane questions from an exasperating but nonetheless loved family member, my rule would be that Ill reply with what I already know, but not do any research. If I know the answer off the top of my head, I'll give it (or say, 'cant talk at the moment but I'll catch you this evening', etc), but I won't do any extra research when it's something she could research on her own. For things like rides, I think of it as a roughly mutual exchange: ill say yes if a) I would feel comfortable asking for a similarly-sized favor, and b) they would happily do me a similarly sized favor. This isn't a scorekeeping kind of exact accounting, but a general sense of the scales being in balance.
posted by Ausamor at 3:13 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ausamor at 3:13 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Harriet Lerner's book, The Dance of Intimacy, is all about this. It's about taking steps to change patterns in relationships (partner, family, workplace, everything) and how when we do this, the other people in the pattern will push back. It's not a self-help book; rather, each chapter presents a different case study of a relationship with a certain dynamic where one person decides to take steps to change things. It is excellent.
posted by lulu68 at 5:45 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by lulu68 at 5:45 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, this is how they draw you back in. Placidly agree as part of saying No Gee, I wish we had time to get you a haircut, but it won't be possible. Yes, wouldn't it be nice if you got a haircut, but I just won't be able to make the time. sympathize and empathize as you say it just won't be possible.
Did someone pick you up from the airport? What are the options? Bad luck but I won't be able to get off work. I recommend using Magic Airport Taxi; here's their number.
Aw Jeez, that's terrible about the passports. The airline should have expertise and be able to help you rebook. You must be so frustrated, but they'll get you on your way.
I know you don't like to help me, but... Hahaha, yeah, I feel that. They are going to get worse before it slowly gets better. You have changed things and people fight hard to maintain family systems. Try hard to let the crap roll off. Be as calm and sweet as possible.
A legit answer to a text is I'll chat with you about that later. A legit answer to a bunch of texts is no reply. In the 70s, I moved away from my family. so much effort spent trying to reel me back in, make me move back. So I had no phone for a year. Email and mobile phones were not a thing. I said it was to save money. It was so peaceful.
You are grieving your mom and adjusting to her enormous absence. This is very hard. Be good to yourself. Expect others to be good to you. i wish you the best.
posted by theora55 at 7:17 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Did someone pick you up from the airport? What are the options? Bad luck but I won't be able to get off work. I recommend using Magic Airport Taxi; here's their number.
Aw Jeez, that's terrible about the passports. The airline should have expertise and be able to help you rebook. You must be so frustrated, but they'll get you on your way.
I know you don't like to help me, but... Hahaha, yeah, I feel that. They are going to get worse before it slowly gets better. You have changed things and people fight hard to maintain family systems. Try hard to let the crap roll off. Be as calm and sweet as possible.
A legit answer to a text is I'll chat with you about that later. A legit answer to a bunch of texts is no reply. In the 70s, I moved away from my family. so much effort spent trying to reel me back in, make me move back. So I had no phone for a year. Email and mobile phones were not a thing. I said it was to save money. It was so peaceful.
You are grieving your mom and adjusting to her enormous absence. This is very hard. Be good to yourself. Expect others to be good to you. i wish you the best.
posted by theora55 at 7:17 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Been in a similar boat and one concrete thing that's helping me develop that boundaries muscle is replying with some flavor of delay request "I don't know - let me get back to you." So much of recovering from the self abandonment I had to do to appease others completely disconnected me from my own feelings and desires. Like, if anyone asked me point blank what I wanted in those situations, I couldn't tell you even if you paid me. All of my focus jumped immediately to guessing about someone else's needs and reactions.
So! I need TIME to go off by myself, even if it's a few minutes to dip into a bathroom stall, and find out what I want or how I feel. Even if No feels too hard, Give Me Time to think is a crucial in between step. Anyone who presses you to decide IMMEDIATELY is unreasonable and unrealistic.
You also have the right to change your mind - sometimes I feel like if I agreed to a thing before realizing my actual limitations then I'm stuck, but you can say you thought more about it and it doesn't work for you.
You absolutely have my permission to set big boundaries - you're not a bad person for doing that, you're not hurting anything, and if you've never been able to set boundaries with your fam before, sometimes you need to go whole hog just to learn yourself that you can do that and you will be safe doing so.
Boundaries are loving things - they are us telling the ppl we love how to treat us well so they can be in our lives.
Finally - one of the hardest things about ppl ignoring my boundaries is that I feel awful and mad about myself and my difficulty holding them. These situations kick up a lot of pain and anger that gets stuffed back inside, and then everything feels bad for longer. Whatever you can do to give yourself some love and grace in those moments makes a big difference.
It's awesome that you're taking care of yourself and listening to yourself!
posted by Geameade at 7:20 PM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
So! I need TIME to go off by myself, even if it's a few minutes to dip into a bathroom stall, and find out what I want or how I feel. Even if No feels too hard, Give Me Time to think is a crucial in between step. Anyone who presses you to decide IMMEDIATELY is unreasonable and unrealistic.
You also have the right to change your mind - sometimes I feel like if I agreed to a thing before realizing my actual limitations then I'm stuck, but you can say you thought more about it and it doesn't work for you.
You absolutely have my permission to set big boundaries - you're not a bad person for doing that, you're not hurting anything, and if you've never been able to set boundaries with your fam before, sometimes you need to go whole hog just to learn yourself that you can do that and you will be safe doing so.
Boundaries are loving things - they are us telling the ppl we love how to treat us well so they can be in our lives.
Finally - one of the hardest things about ppl ignoring my boundaries is that I feel awful and mad about myself and my difficulty holding them. These situations kick up a lot of pain and anger that gets stuffed back inside, and then everything feels bad for longer. Whatever you can do to give yourself some love and grace in those moments makes a big difference.
It's awesome that you're taking care of yourself and listening to yourself!
posted by Geameade at 7:20 PM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
There is no reason you must answer your phone when they can leave voicemails, is there? I rarely answer my phone because I hate being interrupted, but I’m happy to return a call if someone leaves a pleasant or at least not nasty message. If someone leaves a demanding m, whining message, I either send them a succinct unemotional reply to answer a question they had asked or I don’t reply at all. People learn faster that way. A bonus is that I get to not be the bad guy because I control my narrative when I want to. I don’t have to sound irritated because I’m returning calls when I want to and how I want to.
posted by waving at 7:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 7:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
"My sister texts me Google-able questions " - you can start charging her. No zelle, no answer.
posted by Sophont at 8:53 PM on July 11, 2023
posted by Sophont at 8:53 PM on July 11, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:05 AM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]