The Pullman is loafing
June 1, 2023 6:15 PM Subscribe
I need help with my Pullman loaf.
I have tried 2 different recipes in the last 2 days (King Arthur smaller pain de mie and Masterclass pain de mie) and the loaf either doesn't rise at all or rises really anemically. I had to trash the dough from yesterday because it ended up too dry and tough.
I let this dough today rise in a closed oven- no heat- for twice the amount of time to make sure it would come up-- and it is still meh.
My yeast is active-- I did test it. Foams like a dream.
Any suggestions or reliable recipes you have tried? I would like to avoid shokupan, although I get that they are related.
I have the 9x4x4 Pullman pan.
I thought about trying Jacque Pepin's easy bread recipe, but this will be try number 3 in as many days and I am not sure that dough would fit in this pan.
Thank you in advance.
I have tried 2 different recipes in the last 2 days (King Arthur smaller pain de mie and Masterclass pain de mie) and the loaf either doesn't rise at all or rises really anemically. I had to trash the dough from yesterday because it ended up too dry and tough.
I let this dough today rise in a closed oven- no heat- for twice the amount of time to make sure it would come up-- and it is still meh.
My yeast is active-- I did test it. Foams like a dream.
Any suggestions or reliable recipes you have tried? I would like to avoid shokupan, although I get that they are related.
I have the 9x4x4 Pullman pan.
I thought about trying Jacque Pepin's easy bread recipe, but this will be try number 3 in as many days and I am not sure that dough would fit in this pan.
Thank you in advance.
Hmmm...there are several things I'd try if I were dealing with this.
1. Are you using a thermometer to temp your liquids? If they're too hot, they could be killing some of the yeast, which would slow down rise time. If they're too cold, the yeast will work more slowly, which would also slow down rise time. If your other ingredients are unusually hot or cold (for instance, if you store your flour in the freezer), that might also cause some changes to rise time.
2. Are you using a scale to weigh ingredients? Weighing helps with everything, but certain ingredients are especially important -- for instance, too much salt can inhibit yeast activity, and sugar can strongly affect the speed at which yeast does its thing.
3. What's the ambient temp in your kitchen? This can dramatically affect rise time. There may be no way to fix it; you might just have to wait it out.
If none of these things fixes the problem, you might consider purposely lengthening the rise by putting the bread in the fridge (or even on the counter) for 8-12 hours. A longer fermentation generally leads to better flavor, so long as it eventually gets to the level of rise you're looking for.
posted by ourobouros at 7:21 PM on June 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
1. Are you using a thermometer to temp your liquids? If they're too hot, they could be killing some of the yeast, which would slow down rise time. If they're too cold, the yeast will work more slowly, which would also slow down rise time. If your other ingredients are unusually hot or cold (for instance, if you store your flour in the freezer), that might also cause some changes to rise time.
2. Are you using a scale to weigh ingredients? Weighing helps with everything, but certain ingredients are especially important -- for instance, too much salt can inhibit yeast activity, and sugar can strongly affect the speed at which yeast does its thing.
3. What's the ambient temp in your kitchen? This can dramatically affect rise time. There may be no way to fix it; you might just have to wait it out.
If none of these things fixes the problem, you might consider purposely lengthening the rise by putting the bread in the fridge (or even on the counter) for 8-12 hours. A longer fermentation generally leads to better flavor, so long as it eventually gets to the level of rise you're looking for.
posted by ourobouros at 7:21 PM on June 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
When you say "closed oven" did you have the oven light on? I can get my oven up to 90-100 degrees with the light on, which helps in a cold kitchen.
The friend who taught me how to bake bread that didn't resemble a brick said that the most common mistake he's encountered is adding too much flour. He said he pretty much never adds all the flour called for in a recipe - holds half a cup or so back and only adds in from that what he needs to make sure the dough is workable.
If you don't have a thermometer, your water should definitely feel warm to the touch, but you should be able to keep your finger in it for several seconds without discomfort. That should put it somewhere around 100 degrees.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:35 PM on June 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The friend who taught me how to bake bread that didn't resemble a brick said that the most common mistake he's encountered is adding too much flour. He said he pretty much never adds all the flour called for in a recipe - holds half a cup or so back and only adds in from that what he needs to make sure the dough is workable.
If you don't have a thermometer, your water should definitely feel warm to the touch, but you should be able to keep your finger in it for several seconds without discomfort. That should put it somewhere around 100 degrees.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:35 PM on June 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The question is whether it's rising slowly or not at all. If it's not at all then the yeast is dead for some reason, and that doesn't sound likely if you're mixing the yeast with liquid as part of the recipe and it's foaming nicely, so we'll go with slow.
It could simply be time. Maybe your kitchen is a bit colder than the recipe assumes. One trick with 'in the oven' is to turn on the light, which generates a tiny bit of warmth that will encourage the yeast. Otherwise, things that will speed up the rise include more yeast, some/more sugar, less salt and less fat, but all of these will change the taste and/or texture of your bread. 'More yeast' is the one that has least effect, in my experience, and I like yeasty bread anyway.
Personally, like ourobouros, I would go with more time: try and make sure you have a couple of handy hour long jobs to do. Iron those shirts! Do something crafty! Go for a walk! Have that video call with the friend you always talk to for ages! Seriously, I have to have another job to hand; if I get impatient I cook the bread too soon, and staring at it does not make it rise faster. And depending on the time of year the rise time in the recipe can be off by a factor of two or more. The fridge will lengthen the rise to overnight or longer, but a room temp rise for as long as it takes is also just fine - do whatever is most convenient. It's hard to overprove bread - possible, but you won't easily manage it, and if you do then the answer is knock it back, knead and prove again.
Sad loaves make breadcrumbs, and breadcrumbs are an ingredient you can use in other recipes. Meatloaf is one example of a recipe that incorporates a reasonable quantity of breadcrumbs rather than having a token amount on the outside - you will find veggie recipes too, that's just what comes to mind. Dry it out in a low oven in slices, and then destroy it in the blender. I've done this with breadmaker bread where I forgot the yeast and made a brick, and the meatloaf doesn't care.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 7:50 PM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
It could simply be time. Maybe your kitchen is a bit colder than the recipe assumes. One trick with 'in the oven' is to turn on the light, which generates a tiny bit of warmth that will encourage the yeast. Otherwise, things that will speed up the rise include more yeast, some/more sugar, less salt and less fat, but all of these will change the taste and/or texture of your bread. 'More yeast' is the one that has least effect, in my experience, and I like yeasty bread anyway.
Personally, like ourobouros, I would go with more time: try and make sure you have a couple of handy hour long jobs to do. Iron those shirts! Do something crafty! Go for a walk! Have that video call with the friend you always talk to for ages! Seriously, I have to have another job to hand; if I get impatient I cook the bread too soon, and staring at it does not make it rise faster. And depending on the time of year the rise time in the recipe can be off by a factor of two or more. The fridge will lengthen the rise to overnight or longer, but a room temp rise for as long as it takes is also just fine - do whatever is most convenient. It's hard to overprove bread - possible, but you won't easily manage it, and if you do then the answer is knock it back, knead and prove again.
Sad loaves make breadcrumbs, and breadcrumbs are an ingredient you can use in other recipes. Meatloaf is one example of a recipe that incorporates a reasonable quantity of breadcrumbs rather than having a token amount on the outside - you will find veggie recipes too, that's just what comes to mind. Dry it out in a low oven in slices, and then destroy it in the blender. I've done this with breadmaker bread where I forgot the yeast and made a brick, and the meatloaf doesn't care.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 7:50 PM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tasting History with Max Miller makes a Pullman loaf in his The Original PB&J from 1901 episode.
posted by tinker at 8:44 PM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tinker at 8:44 PM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing I like to do for slightly lazy yeast is leave it at the "water with yeast and sugar/honey" stage for longer, up to half an hour to really get the fermentation going before the flour smothers it. I usually use a damp teatowel instead of covering with plastic, and my secret for a decent rise is putting the dough in the bathroom next to the heated towel rail - is there anything in your house that creates a warm spot like that?
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:38 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:38 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
A cheap oven thermometer might help you figure out if your oven is too cold - I don't think mine, even in hottest summer in Los Angeles, was ever 80 degrees when it hasn't been used in a day. I actually prefer to use the microwave, after cooking something or just a big mug of water (which you can leave in there if there's room), as it is so insulated it stays warm in there quite a while. Air fryer is similar, if your pan fits - just run a couple of minutes to take the chill off the inside, open and let sit a couple of minutes, then shut your bowl in there.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:11 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 7:11 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well first of all, there is nothing wrong with the recipes.
Then, it is relevant to ask what you expect. A home-baked bread is never going to be like a store-bought sandwich loaf. It is going to be dryer and harder. But let's assume you know this. And anyway the amount of yeast in those recipes should guarantee a good rise.
I think the most likely problem is that you are either kneading it too little or too much. Kneading aids gluten development. You don't have to knead bread -- the famous no-knead bread kneads itself over night in the fridge. But with a relatively short raising time, you have to do some work. On the other hand, you can kill your dough by overworking it, and this is easy to do in a stand mixer. A dough that is overworked cannot be saved. I don't know the science of this, sorry.
For a Pullmann loaf, you want a dough that is very soft to touch. I like to hand work them, because it is satisfying, and also because then nothing can go wrong. The ingredients need to be completely mixed together, with no lumps of butter or flour, but nothing beyond that. Crumbling the dry elements with the butter before adding the liquids (with the bloomed yeast) works well. I think that even as a not-experienced baker, you will be able to feel a good dough.
I don't think your kitchen temperature is very important, unless you are in Alaska and the temperature is below 18C (My other home is in a cold place and it is an issue that the kitchen is often at 14C). If you have a very cold kitchen, the solution is simply longer raising. Or bringing your dough into a warm room, as I do for birthday buns. But I usually raise doughs in the fridge over night, demonstrating that yeast does its work in all above zero conditions.
In general and regardless of recipes, I always start my doughs by combining the liquid, the yeast and some of the flour several hours before I make the dough. This gives the yeast some time to interact with the flour and develop. I have no idea wether this is necessary or even where I learnt it, so take it as you need.
posted by mumimor at 8:14 AM on June 2, 2023
Then, it is relevant to ask what you expect. A home-baked bread is never going to be like a store-bought sandwich loaf. It is going to be dryer and harder. But let's assume you know this. And anyway the amount of yeast in those recipes should guarantee a good rise.
I think the most likely problem is that you are either kneading it too little or too much. Kneading aids gluten development. You don't have to knead bread -- the famous no-knead bread kneads itself over night in the fridge. But with a relatively short raising time, you have to do some work. On the other hand, you can kill your dough by overworking it, and this is easy to do in a stand mixer. A dough that is overworked cannot be saved. I don't know the science of this, sorry.
For a Pullmann loaf, you want a dough that is very soft to touch. I like to hand work them, because it is satisfying, and also because then nothing can go wrong. The ingredients need to be completely mixed together, with no lumps of butter or flour, but nothing beyond that. Crumbling the dry elements with the butter before adding the liquids (with the bloomed yeast) works well. I think that even as a not-experienced baker, you will be able to feel a good dough.
I don't think your kitchen temperature is very important, unless you are in Alaska and the temperature is below 18C (My other home is in a cold place and it is an issue that the kitchen is often at 14C). If you have a very cold kitchen, the solution is simply longer raising. Or bringing your dough into a warm room, as I do for birthday buns. But I usually raise doughs in the fridge over night, demonstrating that yeast does its work in all above zero conditions.
In general and regardless of recipes, I always start my doughs by combining the liquid, the yeast and some of the flour several hours before I make the dough. This gives the yeast some time to interact with the flour and develop. I have no idea wether this is necessary or even where I learnt it, so take it as you need.
posted by mumimor at 8:14 AM on June 2, 2023
Whenever my bread hasn't risen, it has been caused by one of three things:
1. Dead (or moribund) yeast. Sounds like this isn't your problem.
2. Salt. I keep salt and yeast as far away from each other until the last possible instant. Salt really does kill yeast.
3. Cinnamon. It retards yeast growth.
posted by yellowcandy at 3:27 PM on June 2, 2023
1. Dead (or moribund) yeast. Sounds like this isn't your problem.
2. Salt. I keep salt and yeast as far away from each other until the last possible instant. Salt really does kill yeast.
3. Cinnamon. It retards yeast growth.
posted by yellowcandy at 3:27 PM on June 2, 2023
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posted by cozenedindigo at 7:00 PM on June 1, 2023 [5 favorites]