Plant woes - sudden death!
May 28, 2023 8:48 AM Subscribe
I just planted black eyed susans, frost aster and sand coreopsis in a sunny bed beside my house. Thirty hours later, the black eyed susans have withered to the ground, one frost aster is wilting and the other has brown spots on the leaves. What is going on?
I have planted black eyed susans elsewhere in my yard, where they are doing well. I watered all the plants a bit when I put them in but did not soak the soil since all like normal/dry conditions.
My house is in an industrial area and has had some remediation for arsenic. Last year I planted native shade plants in a shady bed at the back of the house and they all died immediately, but I assumed that I had done something wrong since my coneflowers and black eyed susans in a different bed were fine and since raspberry cane had grown there before.
So what did I do? Could the soil be bad? Was watering them at all a mistake? I only put in two of each as a test, so if I screwed it up I can start over. If they are poisoned, would moving them today help? If I overwatered, will they recover? (I really didn't water much!!!!)
The sand coreopsis, planted in the same conditions but a few feet further down from the others, look normal so far.
Bonus question: I put in a couple more coneflowers in the coneflower bed and this morning I found that something had bitten off two big coneflower leaves and dropped them right next to the plant. What would do this? Why? Can I prevent it? The leaves were not eaten, they were just seemingly snipped off.
I have planted black eyed susans elsewhere in my yard, where they are doing well. I watered all the plants a bit when I put them in but did not soak the soil since all like normal/dry conditions.
My house is in an industrial area and has had some remediation for arsenic. Last year I planted native shade plants in a shady bed at the back of the house and they all died immediately, but I assumed that I had done something wrong since my coneflowers and black eyed susans in a different bed were fine and since raspberry cane had grown there before.
So what did I do? Could the soil be bad? Was watering them at all a mistake? I only put in two of each as a test, so if I screwed it up I can start over. If they are poisoned, would moving them today help? If I overwatered, will they recover? (I really didn't water much!!!!)
The sand coreopsis, planted in the same conditions but a few feet further down from the others, look normal so far.
Bonus question: I put in a couple more coneflowers in the coneflower bed and this morning I found that something had bitten off two big coneflower leaves and dropped them right next to the plant. What would do this? Why? Can I prevent it? The leaves were not eaten, they were just seemingly snipped off.
It could just be plain old sun exposure on plants not accustomed to it. The other ones you planted earlier that are doing better - do they get less sun? And/or did you plant them when the temperature was cooler and the angle of the sun was lower?
As for the “snipping” - I’ve observed birds like starlings doing this, in what seems like experimentation to see what the plant is. Sometimes they bring herbs to their nests to act as pest control, so my guess is they’re checking for whatever aromatics will do that. One year a starling really went to town on my herb garden…
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
As for the “snipping” - I’ve observed birds like starlings doing this, in what seems like experimentation to see what the plant is. Sometimes they bring herbs to their nests to act as pest control, so my guess is they’re checking for whatever aromatics will do that. One year a starling really went to town on my herb garden…
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also - are you sure you haven’t UNDERwatered? Overwatering is much more of a concern in containers than in the ground. I know just as many if not more people who kill plants by underwatering out of fear of overwatering, than people who kill them by overwatering.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:29 AM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:29 AM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Has anything else grown in that bed before (on purpose or not)?
Generally if something withers that fast, it came into contact with something already there, and that something was either flat out bad, highly acidic or base, or has root-attacking pests. Overwatering is an over-time problem, you can't "overwater" something once unless you are dropping it into a bucket.
Gardening is an ongoing experiment, and I'd say try moving one somewhere else and see what happens in both places over the next few days.
As for the coneflower leaves, occam's razor says they fell off unless you are saying there are obvious chew marks. If so, it's probably not a human, and they did it because...it just seemed like a good idea to them at the time. Don't worry so much about blame (self or otherwise) or something doing this to you out of malice.
There is a chance, if this is not a protected space, that the local roaming animal population is watering that spot for you. Cats, in particular, can take exception to the scent of some plants as it (to them) smells like marked territory, so they mark over it. Hell, dogs will do that to sometimes - I had one dog who would do a handstand in a sort of compulsive disassociated state to pee on tomato plants, pressure-treated wood, and especially smelly rubber or vinyl. Small new plants are not a fan of this treatment, I have learned from multiple incidents before I caught her doing it. You'd think you'd smell it if that was the case, but sunlight is a pretty good neutralizer (but not so fast that damage isn't done).
posted by Lyn Never at 9:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Generally if something withers that fast, it came into contact with something already there, and that something was either flat out bad, highly acidic or base, or has root-attacking pests. Overwatering is an over-time problem, you can't "overwater" something once unless you are dropping it into a bucket.
Gardening is an ongoing experiment, and I'd say try moving one somewhere else and see what happens in both places over the next few days.
As for the coneflower leaves, occam's razor says they fell off unless you are saying there are obvious chew marks. If so, it's probably not a human, and they did it because...it just seemed like a good idea to them at the time. Don't worry so much about blame (self or otherwise) or something doing this to you out of malice.
There is a chance, if this is not a protected space, that the local roaming animal population is watering that spot for you. Cats, in particular, can take exception to the scent of some plants as it (to them) smells like marked territory, so they mark over it. Hell, dogs will do that to sometimes - I had one dog who would do a handstand in a sort of compulsive disassociated state to pee on tomato plants, pressure-treated wood, and especially smelly rubber or vinyl. Small new plants are not a fan of this treatment, I have learned from multiple incidents before I caught her doing it. You'd think you'd smell it if that was the case, but sunlight is a pretty good neutralizer (but not so fast that damage isn't done).
posted by Lyn Never at 9:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This sounds like dehydration and shock due to sudden increase in sun exposure to me.
Even plants that generally like dryer conditions need to be watered well when first transplanted. Their root systems haven't developed yet, meaning less ability to take up water, and the medium that they're started in usually dries out much more quickly than ground soil. You don't want them to be constantly soggy, because that will eventually lead to issues like root rot, but they do need regular watering until established.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:02 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Even plants that generally like dryer conditions need to be watered well when first transplanted. Their root systems haven't developed yet, meaning less ability to take up water, and the medium that they're started in usually dries out much more quickly than ground soil. You don't want them to be constantly soggy, because that will eventually lead to issues like root rot, but they do need regular watering until established.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:02 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
This sounds like not watering them in enough. Besides giving the plant water, you are helping the soil settle in around the roots by watering after transplanting. It’s fine to give them a good soak even if they typically like dry conditions. Transplanting is also a big stress for a plant and ensuring it they have all the water they need afterwards helps them send out new roots to find their own water later.
I would not generally expect pathogens to kill transplants that fast.
posted by momus_window at 10:04 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would not generally expect pathogens to kill transplants that fast.
posted by momus_window at 10:04 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
How much heat is the wall they’re planted next to reradiating?
posted by jamjam at 10:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 10:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
They need water! Make sure you’ve tamped the soil next to their roots and give them a good soaking (not a sprinkle, a soaking). If the soil is sandier and exposed to more sun those plants need a lot of water to establish properly; after that they’ll be more drought tolerant.
posted by lydhre at 10:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 10:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
In general, planting this late in the spring season is going to be hard to get new plants to take. And that is only getting worse with climate change. Ideally you want to get plants into the ground in the fall, or in early spring (all this depends upon your zone). I put in some new extremely drought-tolerant plants about two weeks ago and I am thinking if 3/4 of them make it, that will be a win, because of the late planting.
So what you can try to do with the plants you have is to make sure before planting to rough up the roots a bit if they have filled up the pot, plant with a shallow hole around each plant that will collect the water, then right after planting give it a good amount of water to really saturate the ground. Based on what you have described, I might try putting up some kind of shade for the first few days so they experience less transplant shock.
In the first year of establishment, all new plants, even drought tolerant, need regular watering. (I also tend to err on a little more frequent waterings than what the plant care states, for a more robust growth, than a plant that is just hanging on).
posted by nanook at 11:04 AM on May 28, 2023
So what you can try to do with the plants you have is to make sure before planting to rough up the roots a bit if they have filled up the pot, plant with a shallow hole around each plant that will collect the water, then right after planting give it a good amount of water to really saturate the ground. Based on what you have described, I might try putting up some kind of shade for the first few days so they experience less transplant shock.
In the first year of establishment, all new plants, even drought tolerant, need regular watering. (I also tend to err on a little more frequent waterings than what the plant care states, for a more robust growth, than a plant that is just hanging on).
posted by nanook at 11:04 AM on May 28, 2023
Where did you get the plants? If they came straight from a greenhouse to outside, they got too much sun/wind/exposure in addition to transplant shock. Harden off your greenhouse plants by taking them for successively longer field trips to outside for a week or two before transplanting so they get used to it before they live outside full time.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:31 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:31 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I did indeed water them; one of the really droopy ones has bounced back, the other is trying but may be too withered (I'm sorry plant!!!). The two that were looking a little sad are now back to normal and the sand coreopsis continues to thrive. Clearly it is hardy enough to withstand every fool thing I can do and is now top contender for sunny areas. I watered twice yesterday and once this morning so that the soil is visibly slightly damp. We're supposed to have multiple rainy days this week, so hopefully that will help.
1. I did firmly press the soil down when I planted. Several of these were really rootbound and I felt like I could not unbind them much without tearing the roots.
2. They were outdoors at the garden shop and getting at least some sun due to the way the shop is laid out, but I'll be more aware of the transition in the future.
3. Last year I planted the coneflowers and black eyed susans in June, so I assumed that I could still plant in late May this year. I might try to sneak in another few sand coreopsis early this week.
In other news, whatever was biting my orange coneflower came back about an hour later and dug it up. The root ball was on the ground and the leaves were not eaten but had all been bitten off. I saw a particularly smug-looking rabbit hopping around the front a little later. The other coneflowers are untouched, but a friend who gardens recommended a homebrewed garlic cayenne spray in case it was rabbits.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. I did firmly press the soil down when I planted. Several of these were really rootbound and I felt like I could not unbind them much without tearing the roots.
2. They were outdoors at the garden shop and getting at least some sun due to the way the shop is laid out, but I'll be more aware of the transition in the future.
3. Last year I planted the coneflowers and black eyed susans in June, so I assumed that I could still plant in late May this year. I might try to sneak in another few sand coreopsis early this week.
In other news, whatever was biting my orange coneflower came back about an hour later and dug it up. The root ball was on the ground and the leaves were not eaten but had all been bitten off. I saw a particularly smug-looking rabbit hopping around the front a little later. The other coneflowers are untouched, but a friend who gardens recommended a homebrewed garlic cayenne spray in case it was rabbits.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I did this a few years ago when we moved into our new place and i was obsessing about uranium/radium/whatever (we live in a high radon area), and while I don’t think any of those particular questions were answered, I was super excited to put soil in baggies, mail them off and get a report:
UMN Soil Testing
I think we just did the basic test where they tested for ph and common soil element levels (nitrogen, potassium, potash?) but I bet there are more specific tests they would be happy to do for extra extra fees.
(I am in SE Minnesota and all the new stuff Ive put in this weekend has needed some extra water.)
posted by pepper bird at 3:27 PM on May 29, 2023
UMN Soil Testing
I think we just did the basic test where they tested for ph and common soil element levels (nitrogen, potassium, potash?) but I bet there are more specific tests they would be happy to do for extra extra fees.
(I am in SE Minnesota and all the new stuff Ive put in this weekend has needed some extra water.)
posted by pepper bird at 3:27 PM on May 29, 2023
Re rabbits: have you tried blood meal? It supposedly* scares them away, but this may be one person’s lore.
* according to my mom, who is still my fearless gardening go-to but often gets results that mystify me when I attempt similar.
posted by pepper bird at 3:30 PM on May 29, 2023
* according to my mom, who is still my fearless gardening go-to but often gets results that mystify me when I attempt similar.
posted by pepper bird at 3:30 PM on May 29, 2023
I did firmly press the soil down when I planted. Several of these were really rootbound and I felt like I could not unbind them much without tearing the roots.
It's okay to tear the roots! In fact, the more rootbound they are, the better is it to use your hand or a tool to pull the roots apart to encourage them to grow beyond the root ball. Even when I plant little annuals in small containers, I always move the roots and yes, some will tear. You also want to soften up the soil around where you are planting and mix in some potting soil, or else your plant might stay in that one tiny little spot and not grow roots into the soil. Best practice is to disturb the roots to encourage them to start growing in new directions as they get established in new soil. You don't have to be precious with the roots.
Also, it's totally fine to be planting right now, but you should definitely plan on giving everything you plant a good soak after getting it in the ground. For fresh plantings this time of year, you'll want to water regularly, especially when it's hot. Even very hardy very local natives can use regular water (if it's not raining) when freshly planted to get established. If it isn't raining, or raining much, I water my small containers at least every other day during the summer, and new stuff in the ground at least weekly.
And, everything in your garden can use some water if there's a big heat wave and they're under a lot of heat stress (so, I watered my decades-old, huge walnut during last summer's heat wave scorcher).
posted by bluedaisy at 10:24 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's okay to tear the roots! In fact, the more rootbound they are, the better is it to use your hand or a tool to pull the roots apart to encourage them to grow beyond the root ball. Even when I plant little annuals in small containers, I always move the roots and yes, some will tear. You also want to soften up the soil around where you are planting and mix in some potting soil, or else your plant might stay in that one tiny little spot and not grow roots into the soil. Best practice is to disturb the roots to encourage them to start growing in new directions as they get established in new soil. You don't have to be precious with the roots.
Also, it's totally fine to be planting right now, but you should definitely plan on giving everything you plant a good soak after getting it in the ground. For fresh plantings this time of year, you'll want to water regularly, especially when it's hot. Even very hardy very local natives can use regular water (if it's not raining) when freshly planted to get established. If it isn't raining, or raining much, I water my small containers at least every other day during the summer, and new stuff in the ground at least weekly.
And, everything in your garden can use some water if there's a big heat wave and they're under a lot of heat stress (so, I watered my decades-old, huge walnut during last summer's heat wave scorcher).
posted by bluedaisy at 10:24 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: If anyone is interested, I return to say that all six plants are huge and the black eyed susans are flowering to beat the band. I've been watering them probably once a week lately since we've had a bit of rain. I'm planning to plant more of all three next year.
Coneflowers are a bit hit and miss - three of them are tall and blossoming, one is kind of weird but going to flower and one does not look like flowering this year. Two were eaten, probably by filthy rabbits.
Exciting!
posted by Frowner at 5:50 PM on July 11, 2023
Coneflowers are a bit hit and miss - three of them are tall and blossoming, one is kind of weird but going to flower and one does not look like flowering this year. Two were eaten, probably by filthy rabbits.
Exciting!
posted by Frowner at 5:50 PM on July 11, 2023
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I would start with a basic soil testing kit from Home Depot or wherever.
Of course, yes, there could be something toxic in the soil - maybe your extension service has more information about how to handle this.
You could also try extracting some plants, RINSING the roots, then replanting somewhere else and watering a LOT at first. I'd expect this process to make the plants wilt a bit; it might be a couple of days before they revive if they revive at all.
Also, if the plants are used to less light, shade them at first and let them gradually acclimate to the light of the new location.
posted by amtho at 9:13 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]