Just Got Fired & I am on a w4- Should I sign the w9 they've presented?

March 26, 2023 4:25 PM

Job had me sign a W4 and an I-9. They asked me if I was willing to basically help them commit fraud by signing a W9 as if I was an independent contractor. I said I'd be willing to for the first 2 weeks. They forgot to have me sign the W9, but they never withheld taxes from my checks even past the 2 weeks I agreed to. Now they've fired me and have asked me to sign the W9 so that they can send me my last check. Should I just tell them to keep it and not sign it? Confused.

Back Story: I answered an ad for a job in New York that doesn't mention compensation. I saved a copy of the ad on my computer. It Just says "To be discussed" under the compensation portion.

At the interview, The Boss agrees to hire me for 20 lousy bucks an hour. (Verbal agreement as I have nothing in writing saying that this is what I get paid.) I accept it because I was desperate to leave other job that was killing me due to the commute and hours. So I was willing to accept anything for the time being. But then he asks: "Are you willing to start off as a W9?" So basically asking me to pay my own taxes as an independent contractor making my shit pay even shittier, despite him hiring me as an office assistant doing whatever his daughter (the manager) tells me to do. I mean- yes I would get a full pay check with no taxes withheld, but I know I'm paying my bosses taxes at the end of the year which probably makes what I'm actually getting paid something like 5 bucks an hour I think... I dunno.

Normally, I'd say No! But again I was desperate- and also I was still working at my former job and needed to give them 2 weeks notice to leave them so I figured, for two weeks while I transition away from the other job and work part time, it's ok. So I told him "Sure, I'm willing to do it for the first couple of weeks, but I'll have to be switched to a W2 after that". This was all verbal.

Even though this was discussed beforehand, I was STILL given a W4 and I9 to fill out. They apparently forgot to give me the W9. (There is tons of communication breakdown in this company). I still received my checks and no taxes were withheld. I figured the W4 stuff I signed was for after my 2 weeks.

3-4 weeks later I was still receiving checks with nothing withheld. There was trouble communicating with management about this, but I figured it would be fixed shortly.

Over the weekend I decided to log into my work account to work on the spreadsheets, because quite frankly- they are a mess. I was given them to work with when they were already started by others, who didn't know how to work the program well. It's also really hard to get anything done at the office, because I'm constantly being interrupted. So I figured, I'd work on that over the weekend and everyone would have nicely formatted and organized worksheets to work off of.

I took a coffee break. When I came back from it today, I realized I've been logged out of the system and my password no longer lets me in. Ok, obviously my access was suddenly revoked and I figure maybe they're doing some maintenance on the system. I'm annoyed that I didn't get to finish cleaning up the spreadsheets for tomorrow morning. Then about an hour later I get an email from the boss stating that they have decided to fire me and to please sign the attached W9 form so that we can send you your last paycheck.

To fire me so suddenly on a SUNDAY in the middle of my working on the spreadsheets is very strange. The only reason I can think of is that he probably didn't like me logging in over the weekend. I told my friend and she said "Your boss thinks like a criminal. So he probably assumes you're trying to do something dirty with the spreadsheets because you're working on them over the weekend. " (If her thoughts are true, it would be hilarious, because the company is such a mess their leads basically give them no money anyway). I was just tired of coming into work and having to deal with a mess because I never had alone time in the office to be able to improve the spreadsheets that are being used by everyone. Was hoping to show everyone tomorrow how much more streamlined the sheets were going to be once I was done, but OH WELL.

Do I sign the W9 or not? I was ok with pretending to be a w9 employee for the first couple of weeks, because I could only come in part time while I transitioned from my old job anyway. But not for more than that and it's been like a month already. Taxes were never withheld from my checks.

I'm thinking of just writing back- "Since I was never actually an independent contractor, but an employee, I'd rather you just use my last paycheck to pay for my employee payroll instead. Thank you and be well."
Can't afford to hire a tax pro right now. so not sure if I'm better off just not signing this and having them use my final paycheck to pay the taxes on their end since nothing was ever withheld from my checks. Any help at all from someone who knows would be appreciated!

posted by fantasticness to Work & Money (13 answers total)

IANYL, but I would not sign a damn thing. I would also not ask them to "use your last paycheck" for anything. They screwed up here, so once you have your last paycheck, I'd report them for misclassifying you and not paying their half of your FICA (probably more issues with the state, too). If they give you a 1099, you'll owe 15 percent of that money for FICA. If you get a W-2, it will show you paid nothing in SS or medicare and so you will still owe that, but only 7.5 percent. Put that money into savings now.
posted by soelo at 4:44 PM on March 26, 2023 [9 favorites]

I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and not licensed in your state. Any time you are presented with a document and asked to sign but a voice in the back of your head says, "this feels like fraud," it's worth listening to that voice, pausing, and getting competent legal advice from an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.

You definitely do not want to make any misrepresentations on an IRS or other government form. You also want to be totally upfront with the unemployment system in your state if you have to apply for unemployment.

While there is a tax issue here, this sounds mostly like a wage theft issue. I recommend contacting your local Legal Aid (particularly if your income is now zero because you've just been terminated). Even if they can't represent you, they may be able to get you legal advice. Failing that, contact local law schools. They may have legal clinics that can get you some advice. Law school clinics are great.

If that fails, your state's bar association may be able to refer you to an employment lawyer who can advise you for an affordable fee.
posted by Handstand Devil at 4:49 PM on March 26, 2023 [13 favorites]

Response by poster: Is it worth it to get all legal over such a paltry paycheck though. It was only 20 an hour. And verbally I did agree to being on a W9 for the first 2 weeks even though I was an employee and hired as an office assistant to the boss's daughter.

The problem is that they obviously want to claim I agreed to being on a W9 the whole month I was there which is not true. My last paycheck would only be for 3 days anyway (even though I worked more hours, but that's another story). So I don't care that much if I don't get my last check. I care more about the hassle of paying taxes that I shouldn't be paying.
posted by fantasticness at 4:59 PM on March 26, 2023

OK, looking at your questions history -- your employer sounds ... possibly sketchy. The possibility is above average. I would get some kind of legal advice ASAP. It might be best to walk away, or it might be best to get some kind of record or document in place to protect yourself in case you're implicated in their sketchiness, or who knows.
posted by amtho at 5:32 PM on March 26, 2023

Is it worth it to get all legal over such a paltry paycheck though

Well, one reason to "get legal" is to protect your ass in the event this all takes a further turn for the worse; a lawyer will help advise you on a course of action that does not result in legal exposure yourself, or minimizes any risk you've already incurred.
posted by aramaic at 6:51 PM on March 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

Why would you sign the W-9? They're almost certainly not allowed to employ you on a W-9, and from your viewpoint all indications are that they changed their mind and decided to employ you in the conventional and legal fashion when you signed the W-4 and I-9 so you assumed the matter was closed. Now is not the time to reopen it.

It depends on whether getting that last paycheck promptly is the difference between life and death, but if you can hold out without it for a while, I would not sign. There seems no dispute here that you're owed it, they're just asking you to sign away the rights to the rest of what you're owed.

I might tell them I'm not signing or I might not, but I would definitely not give them any clues about your opinions and leave them to figure out what to do next, just to see what they respond with - seems like they might want to dig themselves deeper into a hole. And I would do all of that in writing so that I could use it as evidence.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 6:56 PM on March 26, 2023

verbally you said: "if you give me a w9 i'll sign it but only for the first two weeks", well those weeks passed and you weren't given the w9 to sign, you have no obligation to do so and they are not allowed to withhold your last paycheck because *they* didn't do the paperwork right. It's probably not worth it to sue if they won't give you your last paycheck, but you could at least demand you be paid and report them for wage theft.
posted by dis_integration at 7:38 PM on March 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

Signing the W9 makes it more likely you’ll end up paying 15 percent instead of 7.5 percent. 3 days at $20 and hour full time is $480 and that could end up covering some of this headache. I wouldn’t be concerned with getting yourself in trouble over this as the employer is the one with the power here and anyone enforcing this kind of law is going to know that. Sketchy employers rely on people not reporting this out of fear they’ll get themselves in trouble or feeling like it isn’t worth it. If you have the time and power to fight this then you’re preventing them from being able to do this to another person.
posted by soelo at 8:03 PM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Why on earth would you sign? Simply continuously state to the boss that you are not wiling to sign this and you await your pay check. No need to debate or argue, it's not like you're getting a reference out of this?

Sorry this is happening.
posted by latkes at 8:46 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]

I wouldn't waste any time filling out a W-9. If they don't have it now then their opportunity to get it is over. If you are going to respond to this at all (which I wouldn't), the response would be that, as far as you understood, you were an employee not an independent contractor and you never signed anything to the contrary.

On the flip side, I would definitely spend time applying for unemployment right now, because at least you can get those dollars, which are likely to be a lot more than $480. Also this is very likely to bring the employer a few calls from the state department of labor, which is going to make them very nervous indeed and that alone would be worth it - and also make it more likely that they will stop (illegally) trying to enroll you as an independent contractor post-facto, and that your final check will be forthcoming.

To them, it is far better to send you a few hundred bucks than get in sidewise with the dept of labor.

FYI anyone who has worked at all in the past 18 months can apply for unemployment in NY. That doesn't guarantee that you will receive unemployment, but they encourage you to apply and let them make the determination rather than assuming you don't qualify.

- If you sign the W9 form, then the company will argue that you were an independent contractor and thus, not eligible for unemployment. That doesn't mean you will receive NO unemployment but rather that the month or however long you worked for that company as an "independent contractor" will (most likely) not count towards your unemployment calculation. So that alone is a good enough reason not to sign and return the W9.

- You need to have worked at least two quarters out of the past four or five to receive unemployment. However, that can be for a variety of different employers - it doesn't all have to be with your most recent employer.

- Most states don't require any specific time spent with one employer before they qualify for unemployment (not 100% sure about the NY law on this, but point is don't assume you don't qualify for unemployment because you only worked for this employer for a few weeks.. Even in places where there is a minimum time, it is usually 30 days, which it sounds like you have met.

Regardless of that, the fact that you were previously working (ie, before this new employer came along) and and not now working, almost certainly will qualify you for unemployment now.

- The employer might try to argue that you were fired for cause, which can disqualify you for unemployment. However, this is an uphill battle for employers. Just tell honestly what happened in your unemployment application, be sure to emphasize that were making your best effort to do the work you had been assigned and had not broken any rule or guideline the employer had ever communicated to you, and let the state unemployment office make the determination based on that. Don't assume you are not eligible - let them make the determination, and if anything, fight for your right to unemployment income when you're let go for such an idiotic non-reason. Let your ex-employer try to make their argument, and probably lose it.

Apply for unemployment here. Should be the first thing you do Monday morning.
posted by flug at 10:24 PM on March 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

I wouldn't sign it (especially not now that you have been terminated, that window of opportunity for them is basically closed), I wouldn't write back at all, and I absolutely wouldn't tell them to withhold my final paycheck with a directive to cover the taxes that they don't seem even remotely organized enough execute on. If they can't even get the basic paperwork completed in a timely fashion for a brand new worker, I wouldn't expect them to get this part correct either, so at this point I'd reconcile myself to having to handle the tax piece on my own rather than have further dealings with them.

In your situation, I'd set the full 15% aside just in case so you're prepared for the worst later, and file for unemployment ASAP. I'm kinda guessing you may not even get full resolution on this until tax time next year when you'll see whether you get a 1099 or a W-2 from them. Some guidance on being misclassified here and here.
posted by anderjen at 8:52 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]

I would let the IRS sort it out: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:33 PM on March 27, 2023

Following up on anderjen, there is a decent possibility you won't receive any paperwork from them, come next January - neither a 1099 nor a W-2.

I would be careful to save whatever records you have of their paychecks to you now - whether it is paystubs or just a record of the deposit. That will make it easier to reconstruct what you need for your taxes in case they don't supply the 1099/W-2.

Mrs. Flug prepares taxes for people and always has to do this for a few clients every year. Your former employer sounds just flakey enough to fall into that category.
posted by flug at 4:16 PM on March 28, 2023