Friend complaining but not making changes
March 22, 2023 6:06 AM Subscribe
How to handle a close friend who complains a lot of being miserable in a specific situation, and also talks of making changes, but then never does?
An analogous example, but not the exact situation: my friend lives in an apartment complex and constantly is messaging/telling me that she is miserable there due to a poor relationship with landlord and some other issues. She sends messages throughout the day about how much stress this is bringing her. She's lived there for years.
Pretty frequently she'll also say, "I have to get out. I'm going to look for another apartment." Yet, she never does. She has the money, and there are other apartments available. But she never looks. When I ask why, she says that she likes some of her neighbors and likes a garden she has there. But the misery and stress of the other things clearly outweighs these.
So, my question is, how to deal with her frequent venting to me about the situation/frequent statements that she wants to leave, yet never making plans to do so?
I understand it's not easy to make changes and that there are invisible emotional factors here but it stresses me out to hear how miserable she's been for years yet knowing that she absolutely can move but is choosing not to?
(The actual situation is different but analogous. It's not about leaving a relationship)
An analogous example, but not the exact situation: my friend lives in an apartment complex and constantly is messaging/telling me that she is miserable there due to a poor relationship with landlord and some other issues. She sends messages throughout the day about how much stress this is bringing her. She's lived there for years.
Pretty frequently she'll also say, "I have to get out. I'm going to look for another apartment." Yet, she never does. She has the money, and there are other apartments available. But she never looks. When I ask why, she says that she likes some of her neighbors and likes a garden she has there. But the misery and stress of the other things clearly outweighs these.
So, my question is, how to deal with her frequent venting to me about the situation/frequent statements that she wants to leave, yet never making plans to do so?
I understand it's not easy to make changes and that there are invisible emotional factors here but it stresses me out to hear how miserable she's been for years yet knowing that she absolutely can move but is choosing not to?
(The actual situation is different but analogous. It's not about leaving a relationship)
Sometimes friends are the only people that can shake someone out of this rut. I think it's time to stop asking why she hasn't done it - you're just inviting her to live in her excuses - and say "I love you and I know it's complicated, but it's time to stop complaining and start doing. Can I go out with you next weekend to look at apartments? Come on, buddy, let's go get you a better life."
Make it positive, be a cheerleader, keep your criticism to more of a light razzing than a lecture. It might just be that she needs permission to make a decision - we all get stuck like that sometimes. She may be thinking that her concerns are too trivial, her discomfort too unimportant, and that you might think she's making a big fuss over nothing and actually moving would be too dramatic. Reassure her that being dissatisfied with a situation is ample reason to change it.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:14 AM on March 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
Make it positive, be a cheerleader, keep your criticism to more of a light razzing than a lecture. It might just be that she needs permission to make a decision - we all get stuck like that sometimes. She may be thinking that her concerns are too trivial, her discomfort too unimportant, and that you might think she's making a big fuss over nothing and actually moving would be too dramatic. Reassure her that being dissatisfied with a situation is ample reason to change it.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:14 AM on March 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
(I know you said she's not really moving, but similar principle no matter what - cheerlead, offer to just go/be with her as she figures out the logistics and takes the first step. Help her obtain momentum.)
posted by Lyn Never at 6:16 AM on March 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 6:16 AM on March 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
It sounds like one of the "games" people sometimes "play" - "Yes, but". I'd either enforce my own boundaries (telling her I don't want multiple stress-inducing text messages daily) or help her get momentum (taking her to look at some apartments). But I'd definitely call out her "game".
posted by gakiko at 6:30 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gakiko at 6:30 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree that if this is the sort of problem that you can actively help in fixing, saying "starting on X date, let's do Y small initial change thing together," and then following up could be a good starting point.
Otherwise, if it's a good friend, and you have the sort of relationship where you are able to laugh together about your problems, I've had success with derailing the conversation - not every time, but occasionally when it gets to be too often - with, "is this going to be one of those times when we talk about how X is bad and you need to do Y but then you never do Y so you just want me to listen? Or should we skip to how you really should get started on Y" and laugh about it. Sometimes the nudge that Y is the right choice might be what your friend really wants to explore, and sometimes they would rather just have a listening ear about X and they only talk about Y because they feel obligated to acknowledge there's an out waiting out there. Calling the either / or playfully can help frame the conversation they'd rather have, or nudge them toward the one you'd rather have, and let them know that it's getting a bit repetitive with no resolution.
Obviously this won't work if this is a terrible situation that can't be kidded about.
posted by Mchelly at 6:55 AM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Otherwise, if it's a good friend, and you have the sort of relationship where you are able to laugh together about your problems, I've had success with derailing the conversation - not every time, but occasionally when it gets to be too often - with, "is this going to be one of those times when we talk about how X is bad and you need to do Y but then you never do Y so you just want me to listen? Or should we skip to how you really should get started on Y" and laugh about it. Sometimes the nudge that Y is the right choice might be what your friend really wants to explore, and sometimes they would rather just have a listening ear about X and they only talk about Y because they feel obligated to acknowledge there's an out waiting out there. Calling the either / or playfully can help frame the conversation they'd rather have, or nudge them toward the one you'd rather have, and let them know that it's getting a bit repetitive with no resolution.
Obviously this won't work if this is a terrible situation that can't be kidded about.
posted by Mchelly at 6:55 AM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do you feel like you have a relationship outside of this conversation? I ask because I’ve found that sometimes when friendships fizzle out, that there’s a tendency to try to hang onto it and maybe friend has found that this type of communication is really the only thing holding the friendship together. It’s the only thing friend knows to talk about.
posted by Sassyfras at 7:18 AM on March 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Sassyfras at 7:18 AM on March 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think in your shoes I'd just shrug, take the position that this person is getting enough out of that situation to stay in it despite their complaining and I don't need to understand why, and focus on the only part of this that's in my control - how much I want to hear about it. "I'm sorry your landlord sucks, I'd love to help you apartment hunt if you're ever ready to do that, but until you're actually taking steps to move, I just can't talk about this with you as often as we do. Can we take a break from apartment woes and talk about [something less gloomy] today?" Dial up to "can we take apartment woes off the table entirely for a while" or forever, or whatever you need for your own ability to cope.
posted by Stacey at 7:31 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 7:31 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
But the misery and stress of the other things clearly outweighs these.
...It sounds like in fact it doesn’t?
posted by staggernation at 7:38 AM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
...It sounds like in fact it doesn’t?
posted by staggernation at 7:38 AM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
There might be some obstacle to moving that she doesn't want to discuss with you - anything from "moving would require me to confront my hoarding problem" to "I am scared that my landlord will give me a bad reference because of the bad blood between us and my apartment application won't get approved."
I think all of the suggestions above - about offering to help, and setting specific boundaries on how much you're willing to listen to - are good ones, and I don't really have anything to add to that. But do consider that it might not just be a case of endlessly complaining without taking any action to fix the problem.
posted by Jeanne at 8:23 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think all of the suggestions above - about offering to help, and setting specific boundaries on how much you're willing to listen to - are good ones, and I don't really have anything to add to that. But do consider that it might not just be a case of endlessly complaining without taking any action to fix the problem.
posted by Jeanne at 8:23 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not sure if this would be helpful here, but I know what when I'm in situations like your friend's, it helps to remind myself that I have agency and choice, and that by staying, I'm choosing to stay. So might it be helpful to remind her of that? Reframing the situation so she sees her own agency?
posted by swheatie at 8:34 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by swheatie at 8:34 AM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hi! I am totally This Complainer Person! I have issues with my apartment (well, not hugely enough to complain about on a regular basis) and I have huge issues with my job. We'll stick to apartment living as the example though. Here's my logic behind this behavior:
1. Just because you hate a lot of stuff about (whatever) doesn't mean there aren't also some good things/advantages that you get out of it. Like she says she likes her neighbors. In my case, the location I'm in is great and the price is less than I would be paying to move and the rent would go up by a LOT if I go anywhere else because they inevitably raise rent wherever you go, but they raise it less if you return. You may hate more about it than you like (the pipes annoy me, no heat, disposal has always been somewhat iffy), but the advantages (location, location, location!) may be super good. I prioritize major overall benefits (like health insurance) over petty daily stuff like "God, I'm tired of Drano-ing the shower monthly."
2. This is probably a "depends on situation" thing, and possibly carrying the analogy a bit far, but if the main problem is she hates the landlord, is she likely to find better landlords elsewhere? Because I live somewhere where all landlords/apartment management are going to be semi-divey at best. It's a lot of time and effort to uproot, only to end up with a similar situation with someone else elsewhere. I've been displeased at my management off and on throughout the years, but I can count on one finger the number of people in this town who liked their landlord and I can't live there. Making a drastic, dramatic change may not improve that situation.
3. Completely uprooting your entire life and spending a lot to move is really hard! Really hard! Like I shopped around for new apartments a few years ago and frankly, none of it was as good of a deal as my current location, so I've decided it wasn't worth the time and effort and especially the money to uproot myself. Also, shopping around for other apartments (or jobs, frankly) can be extremely depressing to do and make you feel even shittier when you realize that your other options are worse than what you've got. She's got plenty of stick, but no carrot, as it were. She's coming from a place of "this sucks" and not "oh, look, here's a fantastic dream that I can pursue and I am motivated to get!"
She only partially wants to leave. She's not 100% ON BOARD with leaving, and may never be so. She's not going to move heaven and earth to get the heck out of there! She can live with partial dissatisfaction easier than she can totally uprooting.
As a chronic whiner, I get that I am a chronic whiner and it annoys people. I am personally fine with people telling me to shut up and stop the whining! It's legit to say, "Look, if you're not going to do anything about it, I get it, but I'm tired of hearing about this multiple times a day." Or just to say, "I don't have anything new to say on this topic, why don't we talk about tulips?" Or "Sorry to hear that's happening again. Did I tell you about what's on Ted Lasso last night?" Or to ignore her fresh texts on the landlord's latest shenanigans. Because if this is so bad that it will lead you to drop the friendship out of frustration if she doesn't cool her whining, it's fair to say that in order to stay in this relationship, she needs to not constantly keep telling you about this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:14 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
1. Just because you hate a lot of stuff about (whatever) doesn't mean there aren't also some good things/advantages that you get out of it. Like she says she likes her neighbors. In my case, the location I'm in is great and the price is less than I would be paying to move and the rent would go up by a LOT if I go anywhere else because they inevitably raise rent wherever you go, but they raise it less if you return. You may hate more about it than you like (the pipes annoy me, no heat, disposal has always been somewhat iffy), but the advantages (location, location, location!) may be super good. I prioritize major overall benefits (like health insurance) over petty daily stuff like "God, I'm tired of Drano-ing the shower monthly."
2. This is probably a "depends on situation" thing, and possibly carrying the analogy a bit far, but if the main problem is she hates the landlord, is she likely to find better landlords elsewhere? Because I live somewhere where all landlords/apartment management are going to be semi-divey at best. It's a lot of time and effort to uproot, only to end up with a similar situation with someone else elsewhere. I've been displeased at my management off and on throughout the years, but I can count on one finger the number of people in this town who liked their landlord and I can't live there. Making a drastic, dramatic change may not improve that situation.
3. Completely uprooting your entire life and spending a lot to move is really hard! Really hard! Like I shopped around for new apartments a few years ago and frankly, none of it was as good of a deal as my current location, so I've decided it wasn't worth the time and effort and especially the money to uproot myself. Also, shopping around for other apartments (or jobs, frankly) can be extremely depressing to do and make you feel even shittier when you realize that your other options are worse than what you've got. She's got plenty of stick, but no carrot, as it were. She's coming from a place of "this sucks" and not "oh, look, here's a fantastic dream that I can pursue and I am motivated to get!"
She only partially wants to leave. She's not 100% ON BOARD with leaving, and may never be so. She's not going to move heaven and earth to get the heck out of there! She can live with partial dissatisfaction easier than she can totally uprooting.
As a chronic whiner, I get that I am a chronic whiner and it annoys people. I am personally fine with people telling me to shut up and stop the whining! It's legit to say, "Look, if you're not going to do anything about it, I get it, but I'm tired of hearing about this multiple times a day." Or just to say, "I don't have anything new to say on this topic, why don't we talk about tulips?" Or "Sorry to hear that's happening again. Did I tell you about what's on Ted Lasso last night?" Or to ignore her fresh texts on the landlord's latest shenanigans. Because if this is so bad that it will lead you to drop the friendship out of frustration if she doesn't cool her whining, it's fair to say that in order to stay in this relationship, she needs to not constantly keep telling you about this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:14 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
"is this going to be one of those times when we talk about how X is bad and you need to do Y but then you never do Y so you just want me to listen? Or should we skip to how you really should get started on Y" and laugh about it.
But the misery and stress of the other things clearly outweighs these.
...It sounds like in fact it doesn’t?
I came to make suggestions along the lines of these two comments. I've had success in the past by gently calling out/labeling what's going on, and at the same time, telling the person that, while they are clearly able to cope with the problematic elements of the situation better than I would be able to, hearing about it is stressing me out. I've then told them that I'm available if they want to brainstorm and/or implement practical measures, but I can't be their sounding board all the time. If there is some element of the situation that is making it harder for your friend to make changes than you think, this is when it will come out.
In the meantime, start weaning them off the multiple messages a day by responding only intermittently with things like "wow that does sound stressful." They will either get the hint or find somebody else to vent to.
posted by rpfields at 9:24 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
But the misery and stress of the other things clearly outweighs these.
...It sounds like in fact it doesn’t?
I came to make suggestions along the lines of these two comments. I've had success in the past by gently calling out/labeling what's going on, and at the same time, telling the person that, while they are clearly able to cope with the problematic elements of the situation better than I would be able to, hearing about it is stressing me out. I've then told them that I'm available if they want to brainstorm and/or implement practical measures, but I can't be their sounding board all the time. If there is some element of the situation that is making it harder for your friend to make changes than you think, this is when it will come out.
In the meantime, start weaning them off the multiple messages a day by responding only intermittently with things like "wow that does sound stressful." They will either get the hint or find somebody else to vent to.
posted by rpfields at 9:24 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've then told them that I'm available if they want to brainstorm and/or implement practical measures, but I can't be their sounding board all the time.
This is what I do, and sort of focus on two things
1. "I am here to help but just listening to you make the same complaints is not a kind of help I can continue to offer. Let me know if there are other ways to help. Here are a few suggestions..." and then turn this into "loving broken record" where you repeat "I can't really be here for the constant complaining about Topic X" and understand that might be a deal breaker for them and it's okay to have boundaries.
2. Really make it into an "It's not you, it's me" thing since some people are totally fine both being the complainer or the listener in these types of situations but I am not and it's important for me to own that aspect of it myself.
Put another way, some people's dials are set hard to "dissatisfied" and this is how things are. This may be for reasons that can change or it may be for reasons that can not change but in friendships it's okay if someone whose dial is set to "dissatisfied" doesn't quite align with the way you want a friendship to be. For me, my outlook is really "Trying to see a way through" like not even optimism or look-in-the-bright-side but just "There's a way through this" and that can be a bad fit with people whose outlook is "I am stuck here" and in the past few years especially I've been trying to put some boundaries around people who have an "I am stuck here" mindset. With better friends that can just be about gently redirecting conversations and for less-good friends it can just be limiting time I spend with them or just letting the friendship do a slow fade.
posted by jessamyn at 9:47 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is what I do, and sort of focus on two things
1. "I am here to help but just listening to you make the same complaints is not a kind of help I can continue to offer. Let me know if there are other ways to help. Here are a few suggestions..." and then turn this into "loving broken record" where you repeat "I can't really be here for the constant complaining about Topic X" and understand that might be a deal breaker for them and it's okay to have boundaries.
2. Really make it into an "It's not you, it's me" thing since some people are totally fine both being the complainer or the listener in these types of situations but I am not and it's important for me to own that aspect of it myself.
Put another way, some people's dials are set hard to "dissatisfied" and this is how things are. This may be for reasons that can change or it may be for reasons that can not change but in friendships it's okay if someone whose dial is set to "dissatisfied" doesn't quite align with the way you want a friendship to be. For me, my outlook is really "Trying to see a way through" like not even optimism or look-in-the-bright-side but just "There's a way through this" and that can be a bad fit with people whose outlook is "I am stuck here" and in the past few years especially I've been trying to put some boundaries around people who have an "I am stuck here" mindset. With better friends that can just be about gently redirecting conversations and for less-good friends it can just be limiting time I spend with them or just letting the friendship do a slow fade.
posted by jessamyn at 9:47 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
How about mild engagement?
Example: Wow, how many years have you lived there? 5? I guess youre going to be living there at least another 5 years if you dont move.
Wow, how long has the situation been going on? 5 years? I guess you haven't gotten used to it yet? Do you think you will?
Wow, I don't think I could handle another 5 years of this. You've put up with a lot.
It looks like to date you've been listening sympathetically, which has been enough to ease her negative emotions till she feels stressed again, and then you ease her negative emotions and the cycle continues.
If you engage the issue and reflect it back to her, she will not be able to release the negative emotion through just complaining. She may either stop complaining to you or start thinking about changes.
posted by jello at 10:20 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Example: Wow, how many years have you lived there? 5? I guess youre going to be living there at least another 5 years if you dont move.
Wow, how long has the situation been going on? 5 years? I guess you haven't gotten used to it yet? Do you think you will?
Wow, I don't think I could handle another 5 years of this. You've put up with a lot.
It looks like to date you've been listening sympathetically, which has been enough to ease her negative emotions till she feels stressed again, and then you ease her negative emotions and the cycle continues.
If you engage the issue and reflect it back to her, she will not be able to release the negative emotion through just complaining. She may either stop complaining to you or start thinking about changes.
posted by jello at 10:20 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hello! Recovering complainer here. You have my permission to say you just can't hear a bunch about her shitty [apartment] situation! It will probably sting her pretty badly and she may step back from the relationship entirely for awhile while she gets over being embarrassed, so I would counsel patience. And the relationship may not be able to be the same ever again, honestly--once you change a major dynamic it has ripples through all of the relationship.
Back in the day, when I was ruminating obsessively over a seemingly intractable situation, my best friends and my mom all unequivocally told me to shut the fuck up and come back when I had anything interesting to say. I didn't speak to any of them for a long time, frankly. But it did force me to be conscious of what I was communicating, and what a drag I was being, and learn to act better.
In my mind at the time, [shitty situation and feelings] were what my life was about, and I was super upset and occupied by them, and I didn't have other things to share. Also, it didn't occur to me that I might be upsetting people, because I couldn't conceive of anyone actually giving a shit about me enough to be stressed. (Spoiler: I was deeply mentally ill and in crisis! All of the advice they were giving me was just...wildly unhelpful because what i needed was medication and hospitalization.)
I am grateful to those folks for making me less of an irritating, boring asshole -- but also frankly I don't really ever tell them much about my life anymore. Even now that a lot of things in my life are good, actually. I can't help but feel a little bit like if you don't want the bad, you don't get the good either.
So...summary: 1. be mindful that you really may not know what your friend is up against and why she is this way. 2. you may want to be prepared for the closeness level to dial way down.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:32 AM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Back in the day, when I was ruminating obsessively over a seemingly intractable situation, my best friends and my mom all unequivocally told me to shut the fuck up and come back when I had anything interesting to say. I didn't speak to any of them for a long time, frankly. But it did force me to be conscious of what I was communicating, and what a drag I was being, and learn to act better.
In my mind at the time, [shitty situation and feelings] were what my life was about, and I was super upset and occupied by them, and I didn't have other things to share. Also, it didn't occur to me that I might be upsetting people, because I couldn't conceive of anyone actually giving a shit about me enough to be stressed. (Spoiler: I was deeply mentally ill and in crisis! All of the advice they were giving me was just...wildly unhelpful because what i needed was medication and hospitalization.)
I am grateful to those folks for making me less of an irritating, boring asshole -- but also frankly I don't really ever tell them much about my life anymore. Even now that a lot of things in my life are good, actually. I can't help but feel a little bit like if you don't want the bad, you don't get the good either.
So...summary: 1. be mindful that you really may not know what your friend is up against and why she is this way. 2. you may want to be prepared for the closeness level to dial way down.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:32 AM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
! It will probably sting her pretty badly and she may step back from the relationship entirely for awhile while she gets over being embarrassed, so I would counsel patience. And the relationship may not be able to be the same ever again, honestly--once you change a major dynamic it has ripples through all of the relationship.
Back in the day, when I was ruminating obsessively over a seemingly intractable situation, my best friends and my mom all unequivocally told me to shut the fuck up and come back when I had anything interesting to say. I didn't speak to any of them for a long time, frankly.
Oh, this is an excellent point I forgot to address. I will totally shut down on someone for awhile once they shame me/tell me to shut up. But I think that's a good thing! Both because sometimes you just need to be told SHUT UP and some of us just won't listen until a clue anvil is dropped on our heads (and I do feel embarrassed about it, but I deserve to feel that way!), and also because it gets her to shut up on the topic for awhile. It's a win-win, even if it makes me feel bad--but also, I deserve to feel bad if I'm inflicting my whining on someone too much without taking the hint to shut it. Again, I'd rather be scolded to shut up periodically than just get the friend dump because I'm too annoying as a human being and won't take hints.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:52 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Back in the day, when I was ruminating obsessively over a seemingly intractable situation, my best friends and my mom all unequivocally told me to shut the fuck up and come back when I had anything interesting to say. I didn't speak to any of them for a long time, frankly.
Oh, this is an excellent point I forgot to address. I will totally shut down on someone for awhile once they shame me/tell me to shut up. But I think that's a good thing! Both because sometimes you just need to be told SHUT UP and some of us just won't listen until a clue anvil is dropped on our heads (and I do feel embarrassed about it, but I deserve to feel that way!), and also because it gets her to shut up on the topic for awhile. It's a win-win, even if it makes me feel bad--but also, I deserve to feel bad if I'm inflicting my whining on someone too much without taking the hint to shut it. Again, I'd rather be scolded to shut up periodically than just get the friend dump because I'm too annoying as a human being and won't take hints.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:52 AM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I like that "mild engagement" idea.
I have a friend who has a lot of relationships with Terrible Abusive Monsters. She doesn't end the relationships and her efforts to stick up for herself within them always come to nothing because she's a big people pleaser and, again, the people she's trying to please are Terrible Abusive Monsters. (She's not living with an abuser, thank goodness, and nobody's really wrecking her life on the daily or making her unsafe, but there are regular and spectacularly shitty misdeeds that make me involuntarily clench my fists and grind my teeth.)
I had been responding with alarm and emergency plans every time she came out with a new story. Another thing is, she likes to ask what she should do. Like, "Should I say X thing that is basically inviting the person to commit more atrocities...? Or should I gently hint that maybe I deserve more decent treatment or would that be too impertinent do you think?" To which it's nearly impossible not to scream, "Give them an ultimatum! BURN IT ALL DOOOOOWN!!!!"
But I keep finding that giving advice like that is really not effective. Last time I insisted that she needed to draw up a pros vs cons list and dispassionately evaluate, because there has to be some reason you haven't cut ties, right, even though the person is a terrible abusive monster? So what is the reason or reasons, and does it/do they outweigh the many reasons it would be a fantastic idea to cut ties with this unbelievable asshole?
She appeared to me to be asking for this, but in fact it left her flat. It's not what she's looking for. She really really doesn't want advice, she just wants somebody to listen while she describes the atrocities. So, fine, then: she's a good storyteller and I'm down with listening to the atrocities. My new policy is to respond, "[he/she/they]'s/'re a [expletive]!"
I kind of have to be patient with whining friends, though, given that I'm also an offender. My own wailing about my dopey job has been constant for the whole 20+ years I've had it, and nothing any of my friends has ever said has been able to convince me to take any of the childishly simple actions that could improve my situation. Fortunately all of us enjoy complaining and commiserating with each other, so we haven't lost patience with one another.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:49 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have a friend who has a lot of relationships with Terrible Abusive Monsters. She doesn't end the relationships and her efforts to stick up for herself within them always come to nothing because she's a big people pleaser and, again, the people she's trying to please are Terrible Abusive Monsters. (She's not living with an abuser, thank goodness, and nobody's really wrecking her life on the daily or making her unsafe, but there are regular and spectacularly shitty misdeeds that make me involuntarily clench my fists and grind my teeth.)
I had been responding with alarm and emergency plans every time she came out with a new story. Another thing is, she likes to ask what she should do. Like, "Should I say X thing that is basically inviting the person to commit more atrocities...? Or should I gently hint that maybe I deserve more decent treatment or would that be too impertinent do you think?" To which it's nearly impossible not to scream, "Give them an ultimatum! BURN IT ALL DOOOOOWN!!!!"
But I keep finding that giving advice like that is really not effective. Last time I insisted that she needed to draw up a pros vs cons list and dispassionately evaluate, because there has to be some reason you haven't cut ties, right, even though the person is a terrible abusive monster? So what is the reason or reasons, and does it/do they outweigh the many reasons it would be a fantastic idea to cut ties with this unbelievable asshole?
She appeared to me to be asking for this, but in fact it left her flat. It's not what she's looking for. She really really doesn't want advice, she just wants somebody to listen while she describes the atrocities. So, fine, then: she's a good storyteller and I'm down with listening to the atrocities. My new policy is to respond, "[he/she/they]'s/'re a [expletive]!"
I kind of have to be patient with whining friends, though, given that I'm also an offender. My own wailing about my dopey job has been constant for the whole 20+ years I've had it, and nothing any of my friends has ever said has been able to convince me to take any of the childishly simple actions that could improve my situation. Fortunately all of us enjoy complaining and commiserating with each other, so we haven't lost patience with one another.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:49 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
She sends messages throughout the day about how much stress this is bringing her. She's lived there for years.
... she'll also say, "I have to get out. I'm going to look for another apartment." Yet, she never does. ...
So, my question is, how to deal with her frequent venting to me about the situation/frequent statements that she wants to leave, yet never making plans to do so?
You can't fix people unless they are asking for a fix and willing to act. I'd consider her complaints venting, not a request for problem-solving. I used to want to vent to my partner, who wanted to solve problems, which were things I had in progress; I just needed to get it off my chest. You can ask Are you venting or looking for resolutions? It's okay to have boundaries on how much venting is okay.
If she is texting too much, esp. if you are at work/ busy, tell her you can't manage much texting while at work.
I wish somebody had told me Just divorce the jerk long before the therapist made it obvious. So unasked-for advice isn't all bad.
posted by theora55 at 11:53 AM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
... she'll also say, "I have to get out. I'm going to look for another apartment." Yet, she never does. ...
So, my question is, how to deal with her frequent venting to me about the situation/frequent statements that she wants to leave, yet never making plans to do so?
You can't fix people unless they are asking for a fix and willing to act. I'd consider her complaints venting, not a request for problem-solving. I used to want to vent to my partner, who wanted to solve problems, which were things I had in progress; I just needed to get it off my chest. You can ask Are you venting or looking for resolutions? It's okay to have boundaries on how much venting is okay.
If she is texting too much, esp. if you are at work/ busy, tell her you can't manage much texting while at work.
I wish somebody had told me Just divorce the jerk long before the therapist made it obvious. So unasked-for advice isn't all bad.
posted by theora55 at 11:53 AM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I've heard of one counterintuitive strategy that people use in this scenario: When your friend repeats her complaints, present her with all the reasons she's previously given for staying. Then the onus is on her to defend her reasons for leaving.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:58 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:58 AM on March 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Don Pepino, love your post. Reminds me of my friend with a jerky husband she's been with for 30+ years. Ever since she moved out of state she's cut the "here's the shitty thing X did this week" topics, but I used to hear it every week.
So what is the reason or reasons, and does it/do they outweigh the many reasons it would be a fantastic idea to cut ties with this unbelievable asshole?
And the answer is, "But I looooove him," said in a sad, resigned tone. (Also sometimes combined with "he's the breadwinner with health insurance and I'd need to really disappear like his last ex-wife if I did.")
Or should I gently hint that maybe I deserve more decent treatment or would that be too impertinent do you think?"
Eh, wouldn't work anyway, what does it matter.
My new policy is to respond, "[he/she/they]'s/'re a [expletive]!"
That's what I do too! With everyone in general.
My own wailing about my dopey job has been constant for the whole 20+ years I've had it, and nothing any of my friends has ever said has been able to convince me to take any of the childishly simple actions that could improve my situation
Yeah, seconded. Finding another job has not worked out/been easy, career counseling was pointless and really bad, etc. etc. I could list all the crap I've tried, but why bother. At this point I'm on to prayer. It's easier to dole out advice when you are the one not dealing with the situation or having to fix it, and it may not be as easy for you to do as it would be for them. This is why I don't take it personally when I vaguely offer advice and it's not taken. Not my life/business.
At this point I'm trying to keep job complaints to a minimum socially. Last weekend: "How's your job?" Me: "Still awful, nothing's changed there, let's talk about something else."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:24 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
So what is the reason or reasons, and does it/do they outweigh the many reasons it would be a fantastic idea to cut ties with this unbelievable asshole?
And the answer is, "But I looooove him," said in a sad, resigned tone. (Also sometimes combined with "he's the breadwinner with health insurance and I'd need to really disappear like his last ex-wife if I did.")
Or should I gently hint that maybe I deserve more decent treatment or would that be too impertinent do you think?"
Eh, wouldn't work anyway, what does it matter.
My new policy is to respond, "[he/she/they]'s/'re a [expletive]!"
That's what I do too! With everyone in general.
My own wailing about my dopey job has been constant for the whole 20+ years I've had it, and nothing any of my friends has ever said has been able to convince me to take any of the childishly simple actions that could improve my situation
Yeah, seconded. Finding another job has not worked out/been easy, career counseling was pointless and really bad, etc. etc. I could list all the crap I've tried, but why bother. At this point I'm on to prayer. It's easier to dole out advice when you are the one not dealing with the situation or having to fix it, and it may not be as easy for you to do as it would be for them. This is why I don't take it personally when I vaguely offer advice and it's not taken. Not my life/business.
At this point I'm trying to keep job complaints to a minimum socially. Last weekend: "How's your job?" Me: "Still awful, nothing's changed there, let's talk about something else."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:24 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well...
If this were a friend who just brings this stuff up when you hang out, I'd say eh, maybe your friend just likes to complain. Or maybe her situation is very stressful but the path to solving it would actually be worse. (Analogous situation: I grumble to my friends about my kids' untidiness. The mess offends and bothers me a great deal. I have asked the kids to be more considerate and they do not seem able or willing to change. I am not going to kick my children out of the house, or beat them. So I live with it, though it sucks for me. My friends know I am just expressing frustration, not asking them to remove my children.) The strategy here is to just express sympathy, doesn't need to be more than "that's stressful! i'm sorry" and then change the subject, having let your friend let off some steam.
BUT. Your situation is a bit different here, because you say she's texting multiple times a day. That's... not normal, or considerate, adult friend behavior.
But also, it's just texts, you know? You don't need to answer them. I think if you stopped, she'd stop using you as the sounding board for whatever this is. Respond to texts on every subject but this one.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:59 PM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
If this were a friend who just brings this stuff up when you hang out, I'd say eh, maybe your friend just likes to complain. Or maybe her situation is very stressful but the path to solving it would actually be worse. (Analogous situation: I grumble to my friends about my kids' untidiness. The mess offends and bothers me a great deal. I have asked the kids to be more considerate and they do not seem able or willing to change. I am not going to kick my children out of the house, or beat them. So I live with it, though it sucks for me. My friends know I am just expressing frustration, not asking them to remove my children.) The strategy here is to just express sympathy, doesn't need to be more than "that's stressful! i'm sorry" and then change the subject, having let your friend let off some steam.
BUT. Your situation is a bit different here, because you say she's texting multiple times a day. That's... not normal, or considerate, adult friend behavior.
But also, it's just texts, you know? You don't need to answer them. I think if you stopped, she'd stop using you as the sounding board for whatever this is. Respond to texts on every subject but this one.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:59 PM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not to threadsit, and I know you created an analogy on purpose so you wouldn’t have to address the specifics of your friend’s situation, but when you say that she messages you about this many times a day, it makes me think it’s something big and entrenched. Like hating her job, or a non life-threatening health issue, or (even though you say it isn’t this) her relationship.
And if it is one of those, then the fact that solutions exist - and even that she acknowledges that she should pursue those solutions (send out resumes, schedule the surgery, dump the person) - doesn’t guarantee that pursuing those solutions will make her life better. For the really big life issues that bother you all day every day, it’s not just hard to overcome sunk costs, there’s also the fear (and it’s not unjustified) that you can make the big change and end up in even worse shape. And uprooting yourself twice when the first time was so difficult? That’s just impossible to contemplate.
So if her situation is something really big in her life, maybe it will help you to reframe it. It’s not that she has a problem she keeps complaining about, but if she would just do X…. Instead it’s, wow, she has a problem because doing X is frankly terrifying. Why else would she rather stick with the hell she knows than even try to change it? Changing the conversation to “what’s the worst thing that could happen / do you think this might still be an issue / do you think you’d miss having it to complain about if you did X?” might be the something she needs a friend for, and doesn’t even realize it.
posted by Mchelly at 1:43 PM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
And if it is one of those, then the fact that solutions exist - and even that she acknowledges that she should pursue those solutions (send out resumes, schedule the surgery, dump the person) - doesn’t guarantee that pursuing those solutions will make her life better. For the really big life issues that bother you all day every day, it’s not just hard to overcome sunk costs, there’s also the fear (and it’s not unjustified) that you can make the big change and end up in even worse shape. And uprooting yourself twice when the first time was so difficult? That’s just impossible to contemplate.
So if her situation is something really big in her life, maybe it will help you to reframe it. It’s not that she has a problem she keeps complaining about, but if she would just do X…. Instead it’s, wow, she has a problem because doing X is frankly terrifying. Why else would she rather stick with the hell she knows than even try to change it? Changing the conversation to “what’s the worst thing that could happen / do you think this might still be an issue / do you think you’d miss having it to complain about if you did X?” might be the something she needs a friend for, and doesn’t even realize it.
posted by Mchelly at 1:43 PM on March 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: These situations can be confusing because it's possible your friend just wants to vent and isn't looking for an actual answer or solution from you. That said, you have a few choices on how to deal. First, you can simply listen when she vents and not try to solve the issue...just act as a shoulder to cry on so to speak. Second, as others have suggested, you can tell her it's time to take action and say...I'd be more then happy to go look for a new apartment with you...Is there a good time for us to go do that? Third, you can tell her that you don't wanna hear any more about how unhappy she is at her apartment...unless she's ready to take action by moving. At the end of the day it's up to you. Tread lightly though because if you push in one direction too hard it could cause a rift in the friendship.
posted by ljs30 at 3:52 PM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ljs30 at 3:52 PM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Using the apartment analogy: I lived in a shitty apartment (holes in the ceiling, rodents, meth-cooking neighbors) that was a constant source of stress. I’m sure I complained about it regularly.
When I finally had the funds and the wherewithal to leave (the wherewithal came much later,) the period of time between giving notice, finding and applying to new places, arranging for movers and scraping together $ for all the associated expenses, etc. was actually MORE stressful than my daily stresses of living in the holes rodents n meth place. It was just an almost unbearable level of risk and uncertainty and change and expense at once.
Plus, though it was a remote possibility, it was possible I could wind up with NO place to live at all, because the market was tight. Your friend may be thinking, what’s the worst that could happen if I stay? I’ll be in my same shitty apartment. What’s the worst that could happen if I leave? I could be homeless!
What I’m saying is, change is scary because you could wind up in an even worse spot. Your friend needs to get to the tipping point where the risks of staying are worse than the risks of leaving. You wouldn’t be amiss to frame your feedback like that.
In employment situations, I think many of us can look back at jobs we should have just quit on the spot because they were killing us slowly day by day, indignity by indignity. And in hindsight we could say, of course I’d be able to find something else. However, when you’re entrenched in misery it can be impossible to see alternatives clearly. It can also be a bit of a Stockholm syndrome where you develop a misplaced loyalty to your misery.
posted by kapers at 6:19 PM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I finally had the funds and the wherewithal to leave (the wherewithal came much later,) the period of time between giving notice, finding and applying to new places, arranging for movers and scraping together $ for all the associated expenses, etc. was actually MORE stressful than my daily stresses of living in the holes rodents n meth place. It was just an almost unbearable level of risk and uncertainty and change and expense at once.
Plus, though it was a remote possibility, it was possible I could wind up with NO place to live at all, because the market was tight. Your friend may be thinking, what’s the worst that could happen if I stay? I’ll be in my same shitty apartment. What’s the worst that could happen if I leave? I could be homeless!
What I’m saying is, change is scary because you could wind up in an even worse spot. Your friend needs to get to the tipping point where the risks of staying are worse than the risks of leaving. You wouldn’t be amiss to frame your feedback like that.
In employment situations, I think many of us can look back at jobs we should have just quit on the spot because they were killing us slowly day by day, indignity by indignity. And in hindsight we could say, of course I’d be able to find something else. However, when you’re entrenched in misery it can be impossible to see alternatives clearly. It can also be a bit of a Stockholm syndrome where you develop a misplaced loyalty to your misery.
posted by kapers at 6:19 PM on March 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the helpful perspectives! I understand reasons for difficulty jn making a change; OTOH she is the one saying, many times, that she needs to get out and has decided to look for new apartments. Then, doesn't (as in, doesnt even look) and continues to vent. She mostly talks about how miserable and stressful things are and only gives a few reasons to stay when I ask.
I think the roller coaster is just too much and I don't have it in me to "cheerlead" any more , so I guess I was more asking for strategies for dealing with this while also maintaining the friendship (which many of you provided!) (we are.close, and are in contact often about many different things, not just this.
posted by bearette at 7:51 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the roller coaster is just too much and I don't have it in me to "cheerlead" any more , so I guess I was more asking for strategies for dealing with this while also maintaining the friendship (which many of you provided!) (we are.close, and are in contact often about many different things, not just this.
posted by bearette at 7:51 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
You could say that you've heard all of these complaints many times and nothing seems to help. Instead of more of the same, you could tell your friend it's time to put another dollar in the swear new apartment jar every time she brings it up.
posted by Lookinguppy at 9:54 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lookinguppy at 9:54 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sagc at 6:09 AM on March 22, 2023