"Onion & Bread Soup" - Recipe Failure Advice
February 5, 2023 6:19 PM Subscribe
I cooked a new-to-me soup recipe today and it turned out quite poorly. I have some questions about it which I am hoping you all might have answers to / input on.
(Much) more inside:
The recipe was written down by Don Curto, the former owner and chef of a restaurant my family and I have eaten at and enjoyed many times. He's not just some Internet recipe-writer who has never cooked their own recipes and doesn't know what they're doing, so I'm kind of wondering what went wrong and what (if anything) I should do differently if I try the recipe again.
The recipe, in full, is:
* 8 red onions from the supermarket
* 6 cups "Good & Gather" brand organic no-salt-added chicken broth from Target
* 6 cups Pinot Grigio wine
* 1 stick of cinnamon from a McCormick brand bottle of "stick cinnamon"
I did not fully (or even extensively) caramelize the onions, since the recipe did not seem to say to do that. I did taste the onions before adding the wine and chicken broth, and they tasted very good at that point.
When the soup was finished, I tasted it before sprinkling the Parmesan (I was using proper imported Reggiano) cheese over it, and it tasted quite bad. Only one step up from "inedible". The primary flavors were of cinnamon and overwhelming sweetness, with also a perhaps too-strong wine flavor.
At this point, I put a small amount of the soup in a bowl and kept adding salt to it, tasting it periodically, until I got to the point where it was definitely too salty. The added salt helped up to a point, but didn't help very much.
I then poured another bowl of the soup, added a moderate amount of salt (to taste), then sprinkled the Parmesan over it. To my surprise, the Parmesan did make the soup a LOT better; it took it from "almost inedible" to "still not good, but at least some of the flavors in it were good."
Even with the added salt and Parmesan, the soup tasted so strongly of cinnamon that I couldn't help but think of cinnamon flavored applesauce every time I took a bite. It also still tasted very (overly) sweet. Some of the things I was wondering about at this point are:
* This recipe was written down quite a while ago, maybe in the 1980s. Was the kind of cinnamon available in American supermarkets / foodservice outlets very different (milder/less flavorful) back then perhaps?
* The recipe called for "very dry" white wine. I thought Pinot Grigio was a reasonably dry wine, but maybe it's not dry enough? Should I have used an Assyrtiko or a Muscadet or something like that? Would that have made much difference in the sweetness of the soup?
* It occurred to me that I could try making this again, but leave out the tablespoon of sugar and the cinnamon stick completely. But the recipe writer was a very good cook, and I assume he had those ingredients in there for a reason (which I do not understand).
I will be very curious to hear any thoughts or advice any of you may have about this. Thanks in advance!
The recipe was written down by Don Curto, the former owner and chef of a restaurant my family and I have eaten at and enjoyed many times. He's not just some Internet recipe-writer who has never cooked their own recipes and doesn't know what they're doing, so I'm kind of wondering what went wrong and what (if anything) I should do differently if I try the recipe again.
The recipe, in full, is:
Start with a big pile of thinly sliced red onions (about eight large), using a large ovenproof casserole or sauce pan, cook the onions slowly, stirring frequently until they are soft and reduced in volume. Sprinkle with one tablespoon of sugar and mix well. Add six cups of a rich chicken broth and the same amount of a very dry white wine. Add a cinnamon stick, bring to a boil. Place in a 350 degree F oven, covered, for one hour. Remove the cover, add six thick slices of Italian bread torn into pieces. Cook uncovered for thirty minutes in the oven. Remove from oven, take out the cinnamon stick, and whisk the bread until it is amalgamated with the broth and wine. Serve with Parmesan cheese.I cooked this recipe exactly as written, except that I added four tablespoons of vegetable oil and one teaspoon of salt to the onions in the early stages of the cooking. Details on the ingredients I used are:
* 8 red onions from the supermarket
* 6 cups "Good & Gather" brand organic no-salt-added chicken broth from Target
* 6 cups Pinot Grigio wine
* 1 stick of cinnamon from a McCormick brand bottle of "stick cinnamon"
I did not fully (or even extensively) caramelize the onions, since the recipe did not seem to say to do that. I did taste the onions before adding the wine and chicken broth, and they tasted very good at that point.
When the soup was finished, I tasted it before sprinkling the Parmesan (I was using proper imported Reggiano) cheese over it, and it tasted quite bad. Only one step up from "inedible". The primary flavors were of cinnamon and overwhelming sweetness, with also a perhaps too-strong wine flavor.
At this point, I put a small amount of the soup in a bowl and kept adding salt to it, tasting it periodically, until I got to the point where it was definitely too salty. The added salt helped up to a point, but didn't help very much.
I then poured another bowl of the soup, added a moderate amount of salt (to taste), then sprinkled the Parmesan over it. To my surprise, the Parmesan did make the soup a LOT better; it took it from "almost inedible" to "still not good, but at least some of the flavors in it were good."
Even with the added salt and Parmesan, the soup tasted so strongly of cinnamon that I couldn't help but think of cinnamon flavored applesauce every time I took a bite. It also still tasted very (overly) sweet. Some of the things I was wondering about at this point are:
* This recipe was written down quite a while ago, maybe in the 1980s. Was the kind of cinnamon available in American supermarkets / foodservice outlets very different (milder/less flavorful) back then perhaps?
* The recipe called for "very dry" white wine. I thought Pinot Grigio was a reasonably dry wine, but maybe it's not dry enough? Should I have used an Assyrtiko or a Muscadet or something like that? Would that have made much difference in the sweetness of the soup?
* It occurred to me that I could try making this again, but leave out the tablespoon of sugar and the cinnamon stick completely. But the recipe writer was a very good cook, and I assume he had those ingredients in there for a reason (which I do not understand).
I will be very curious to hear any thoughts or advice any of you may have about this. Thanks in advance!
Sorry, six cups of wine? Not a food professional but I don’t think that’s typical for any recipe I’ve ever seen that calls for wine (usually more like half a cup or less, a cup would be a lot). Is it possible that part was garbled in transcription?
posted by staggernation at 6:39 PM on February 5, 2023 [45 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 6:39 PM on February 5, 2023 [45 favorites]
(Trying to confirm for my own peace of mind that my answer above wasn’t totally off base, I just found a recipe literally called White Wine Soup that calls for 1 1/4 cups, and an onion soup recipe with 1 1/2 cups and the disclaimer “I know this seems like a lot of white wine and you can cut back on the amount of wine if you want.” So, maybe 6 cups is in fact what Don intended and maybe it could be delicious, but... it’s a lot!)
posted by staggernation at 6:52 PM on February 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 6:52 PM on February 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Pinot Grigio is not necessarily a dry white wine… in fact, it can be very much on the sweet side. Did you taste the wine before you used it? I’d use something along the lines a Sauvignon Blanc. That said, it seems like a hell of a lot of wine for a recipe. I know sometimes red wine is used in classic French Onion soup, but it would be around a cup at maybe a 1:6 ratio with broth or stock. I use a good splash Sherry in French Onion Soup and that’s enough. I can only imagine how intense the flavor one cinnamon stick can add to a recipe is… this just seems so off.
If I were making the recipe, I’d go with 1 cup of the white wine, sub the rest of the wine for more stock, no sugar (or maybe a mere pinch), and no cinnamon stick.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
If I were making the recipe, I’d go with 1 cup of the white wine, sub the rest of the wine for more stock, no sugar (or maybe a mere pinch), and no cinnamon stick.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you don’t have time to make stock from scratch, another alternative is to simmer some fresh herbs (bay leaves, thyme, rosemary...), vegetables (carrots, celery...), and aromatics (onion, garlic...) in your store-bought stock for 30 minutes or ideally longer, reducing it somewhat in the process, and then strain it before using.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:02 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by mbrubeck at 7:02 PM on February 5, 2023
". The primary flavors were of cinnamon and overwhelming sweetness with also a perhaps too-strong wine flavor.
My guess is that extra amylase was added to the bread dough in order to make producing the loaf more time efficient, and that the extra amylase converted way too much of the starch of the bread into sugar during the half an hour in the oven uncovered. I wouldn’t put it past 'food technologists' to have used a heat-resistant amylase, either.
Try some Italian bread from a traditional baker you know for sure does not add amylase, and I bet your soup will be much better.
posted by jamjam at 7:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
My guess is that extra amylase was added to the bread dough in order to make producing the loaf more time efficient, and that the extra amylase converted way too much of the starch of the bread into sugar during the half an hour in the oven uncovered. I wouldn’t put it past 'food technologists' to have used a heat-resistant amylase, either.
Try some Italian bread from a traditional baker you know for sure does not add amylase, and I bet your soup will be much better.
posted by jamjam at 7:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dude this recipe sounds so fucked up. 2 BOTTLES OF WINE and a half loaf of bread is a "soup" recipe I'd expect to see as a punchline on Reductress.
posted by phunniemee at 7:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [31 favorites]
Recipes were a lot sweeter in the 80s. Like, there are graphs. I hadn't even gotten to the wine part yet (which, I don't know wine, but I would assume you would want the least sweet rotten grape juice possible as others are saying) and I was already reacting with "add sugar to cooked onions?!" and attempting to suspend my disbelief but then you said sweetness was, in fact, a problem.
In short, recipes were a lot sweeter in the 80s. Adjust accordingly.
posted by aniola at 7:25 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
In short, recipes were a lot sweeter in the 80s. Adjust accordingly.
posted by aniola at 7:25 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
6 cups of white wine sounds insane. Like that's $20 worth of wine into a soup. Could it be a typo? What was the source of this recipe (online, book, old magazine)?
posted by emd3737 at 7:34 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 7:34 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Check out this very, very similar recipe with very different wine-to-stock ratios.
The amount of wine still sounds like “too much” to me, but maybe try this instead?
posted by slateyness at 8:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The amount of wine still sounds like “too much” to me, but maybe try this instead?
posted by slateyness at 8:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I agree, this sounds like way too much wine (and way too much sweet wine), too much sugar, and too much cinnamon. An hour at 350 isn't going to cook it down much, even if it was uncovered, either. And, for an onion soup, I'd want to bring the onions to carmelization, otherwise you won't get the right flavors.
This seems like a recipe where you would want to try and figure out what recipe this was borrowing from, and then try to go to the source. As presented, this sounds unappetizing, and apparently that was the result.
Your idea to leave out the sugar and cinnamon entirely seems like a good start. You can always add in a touch later in the cooking if you think it is lacking those flavors.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:08 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
This seems like a recipe where you would want to try and figure out what recipe this was borrowing from, and then try to go to the source. As presented, this sounds unappetizing, and apparently that was the result.
Your idea to leave out the sugar and cinnamon entirely seems like a good start. You can always add in a touch later in the cooking if you think it is lacking those flavors.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:08 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Red onions are also not really ideal for most cooked applications, they're better raw. Try regular yellow onions instead.
posted by derrinyet at 8:59 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 8:59 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
that broth has a lot of sugar in it. "Rich chicken broth" means a broth made from cooking a chicken; it would not assume a bunch of added sugar at this step, like you got from the Target stuff. and you lost a significant dimension of flavor from not caramelizing the onions.
also, salt needs to be added throughout cooking to do its seasoning magic, not just at the end. it just doesn't work the same when it's added after the main cooking.
that said, it does sound like this recipe is both imprecise and just plain weird... cooking a cinnamon stick for an hour is what you do when you want to scent the house, powerfully, for christmas.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:00 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
also, salt needs to be added throughout cooking to do its seasoning magic, not just at the end. it just doesn't work the same when it's added after the main cooking.
that said, it does sound like this recipe is both imprecise and just plain weird... cooking a cinnamon stick for an hour is what you do when you want to scent the house, powerfully, for christmas.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:00 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m in the camp of “this recipe is . . . Odd.” That is a weird amount of white wine. Red onions are a weird onion to reduce. A whole cinnamon stick is a simultaneously weird and boring spice for this.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:15 PM on February 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 9:15 PM on February 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
Others have already hit the main points, but another thing that jumped out at me was:
posted by kickingtheground at 9:24 PM on February 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
I did not fully (or even extensively) caramelize the onions, since the recipe did not seem to say to do that.Adding a bit of sugar to onions, as they're being cooked, is a trick some people use to speed/aid caramelization of the onions. I suspect that the recipe does want you to caramelize the onions, and that's why the sugar is there.
posted by kickingtheground at 9:24 PM on February 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
Best answer: I can find a few recipes for this as a variant called florentine onion and bread soup , and they seem to have almost the same ingredients, including the whole cinnamon stick, if just a slightly less amount of wine and more broth/water and have similar cooking processes (more stovetop less oven). You are right, you don’t caramelize the onions, just cook em, and in fact might be considering using sweeter ones (vidalias are recommended!). I think this just isn’t to your taste… and judging by the reviews on those recipes, it seems that it’s relatively polarizing: you like it or not.
posted by holyrood at 9:30 PM on February 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by holyrood at 9:30 PM on February 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Most things sold as cinnamon these days are really cassia, which has a stronger flavor (and to which I, alas, am allergic). You can order Ceylon cinnamon online; it has a much softer and more subtle flavor.
I second those who suggest omitting the sugar, salting to taste throughout the cooking process, and carmelizing those onions.
The broth really matters. Either make your own chicken broth or get a good-tasting broth.
posted by katmai at 9:46 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I second those who suggest omitting the sugar, salting to taste throughout the cooking process, and carmelizing those onions.
The broth really matters. Either make your own chicken broth or get a good-tasting broth.
posted by katmai at 9:46 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I, too, was struck by the amount of wine, so much so that I wondered if the handwriting might be unclear and the recipe actually says “and then some amount” of wine instead of “and the same amount”?
Would it be possible to share a photo of the recipe? There might be other quirks of handwriting or notation that could be relevant.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:49 PM on February 5, 2023
Would it be possible to share a photo of the recipe? There might be other quirks of handwriting or notation that could be relevant.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:49 PM on February 5, 2023
Best answer: This recipe was written down quite a while ago, maybe in the 1980s.
As has been noted, tastes have shifted since the 1980s (and even my high end cookbooks from the 90s are feeling off).. Just as you can imagine these recipes bombing in the 80s, what seemed great in the 80s is dated now. Can you imagine telling the average early 1980s person that they've be able to buy raw fish and vinegared rice wrapped in seaweed at gas stations as a routine thing?
I grew up largely in the 80s and I'll be damned before I serve what was considered good food in my youth like the ghastly canned tuna casseroles with pseudo Asian crisped noodles on top to anyone in this century. Let us not speak of the broccoli that were steamed to death and then another 30 minutes just for good measure.
Was the kind of cinnamon available in American supermarkets / foodservice outlets very different (milder/less flavorful) back then perhaps?
Even to this date, what is called and sold as cinnamon varies.
It sounds like you're describing Carabaccia. Rather that trying to fix an old but fondly remembered recipe, I'd start with a more modern recipe and vary it towards the older recipe as desired.
P.S. If you're not aware, the recipe as described would have a high enough alcohol content that I would have to warn any guests before serving it to them. The fact that it's mostly cooked with a lid means that evaporated alcohol is going to drip back down. This isn't a big deal for most people but I'd warn people with devout religious beliefs on alcohol or health issues before serving it to them.
The ratio of wine to broth is definitely high but not entirely out of bounds for some recipes. But again, that's why I'd go with a more modern recipe.
P.P.S. Red onions are not what I'd use for an onion soup and perhaps breeding differences over time combined with the sugar is part of the problem here. I use purple onions almost exclusively for when I want a raw shock from them. For onion soup I'd start with Vidalia, followed by sweet/yellow/white varieties. Each of them has their own nuances and caramelization factors but if I wanted caramelization specifically, Red onions are among the last varieties I'd reach for.
posted by Candleman at 10:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
As has been noted, tastes have shifted since the 1980s (and even my high end cookbooks from the 90s are feeling off).. Just as you can imagine these recipes bombing in the 80s, what seemed great in the 80s is dated now. Can you imagine telling the average early 1980s person that they've be able to buy raw fish and vinegared rice wrapped in seaweed at gas stations as a routine thing?
I grew up largely in the 80s and I'll be damned before I serve what was considered good food in my youth like the ghastly canned tuna casseroles with pseudo Asian crisped noodles on top to anyone in this century. Let us not speak of the broccoli that were steamed to death and then another 30 minutes just for good measure.
Was the kind of cinnamon available in American supermarkets / foodservice outlets very different (milder/less flavorful) back then perhaps?
Even to this date, what is called and sold as cinnamon varies.
It sounds like you're describing Carabaccia. Rather that trying to fix an old but fondly remembered recipe, I'd start with a more modern recipe and vary it towards the older recipe as desired.
P.S. If you're not aware, the recipe as described would have a high enough alcohol content that I would have to warn any guests before serving it to them. The fact that it's mostly cooked with a lid means that evaporated alcohol is going to drip back down. This isn't a big deal for most people but I'd warn people with devout religious beliefs on alcohol or health issues before serving it to them.
The ratio of wine to broth is definitely high but not entirely out of bounds for some recipes. But again, that's why I'd go with a more modern recipe.
P.P.S. Red onions are not what I'd use for an onion soup and perhaps breeding differences over time combined with the sugar is part of the problem here. I use purple onions almost exclusively for when I want a raw shock from them. For onion soup I'd start with Vidalia, followed by sweet/yellow/white varieties. Each of them has their own nuances and caramelization factors but if I wanted caramelization specifically, Red onions are among the last varieties I'd reach for.
posted by Candleman at 10:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree with Candleman and went to find the recipes for carabaccia I have.
this is from "Food alla Florentine" by Naomi Barry and Beppe Bellini from 1972:
6 medium onions
6 ounces blanched almonds
6 cups beef consommé
Bread (in Tuscany, bread is unsalted)
Butter
Pepper
Grated Parmesan cheese or sugar and cinnamon
Peel and chop the onions finely and the almonds
Drop into the consommé
Cover the pot and simmer over low heat for about 1 hour, by which time the onions should be reduced to rather a mush. Pass the onions and almonds through a vegetable mill with the liquid to form a smooth thick soup.
Serve in a handsome tureen and top the soup with slices of bread which have been lightly fried on both sides in butter. Sprinkle with a little freshly grated black pepper and a hearty dose of grated Parmesan.
If you want to add a touch of the classical tradition, omit the bread, pepper and cheese, and substitute a sprinkling of sugar and cinnamon.
Serves six.
This is an adaption of a historical recipe which uses cinnamon and sugar in the soup, but where the cinnamon stick is only in the pot for a little while. Here, the onions are cooked in olive oil and water. So no wine at all in either recipe.
With a friend who was a cookbook author and recipe developer, we tried a mash-up between the above recipe and the historical one, where we did use a good amount of olive oil and a tiny bit of cinnamon in the soup, and offered Parmigiano Reggiano at the table. It was interesting and fine, but he never published the recipe, so not that fine. This was in the eighties and yes, we weren't afraid of a bit of sugar. Cooked onions are sweet.
In 1993, Lorenza de Medici published "The Villa Table", with a recipe very similar to what my friend and I concocted. She used chicken broth, a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a teaspoon of grated nutmeg. No wine. I'm not putting her recipe in here, because she claims you can soften the onions in ten minutes, and that is just not true, so I don't trust the recipe which I haven't tried.
I was really confused about the wine. Yesterday, I made fegato alla veneziana, and looked online for a recipe until I gave up and took out my well worn Elizabeth David. Because all the online recipes had too little onions and some wine in them. But then I thought maybe it comes from the French version of onion soup. This has the wine and the sugar, but not the cinnamon.
posted by mumimor at 12:10 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
this is from "Food alla Florentine" by Naomi Barry and Beppe Bellini from 1972:
6 medium onions
6 ounces blanched almonds
6 cups beef consommé
Bread (in Tuscany, bread is unsalted)
Butter
Pepper
Grated Parmesan cheese or sugar and cinnamon
Peel and chop the onions finely and the almonds
Drop into the consommé
Cover the pot and simmer over low heat for about 1 hour, by which time the onions should be reduced to rather a mush. Pass the onions and almonds through a vegetable mill with the liquid to form a smooth thick soup.
Serve in a handsome tureen and top the soup with slices of bread which have been lightly fried on both sides in butter. Sprinkle with a little freshly grated black pepper and a hearty dose of grated Parmesan.
If you want to add a touch of the classical tradition, omit the bread, pepper and cheese, and substitute a sprinkling of sugar and cinnamon.
Serves six.
This is an adaption of a historical recipe which uses cinnamon and sugar in the soup, but where the cinnamon stick is only in the pot for a little while. Here, the onions are cooked in olive oil and water. So no wine at all in either recipe.
With a friend who was a cookbook author and recipe developer, we tried a mash-up between the above recipe and the historical one, where we did use a good amount of olive oil and a tiny bit of cinnamon in the soup, and offered Parmigiano Reggiano at the table. It was interesting and fine, but he never published the recipe, so not that fine. This was in the eighties and yes, we weren't afraid of a bit of sugar. Cooked onions are sweet.
In 1993, Lorenza de Medici published "The Villa Table", with a recipe very similar to what my friend and I concocted. She used chicken broth, a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a teaspoon of grated nutmeg. No wine. I'm not putting her recipe in here, because she claims you can soften the onions in ten minutes, and that is just not true, so I don't trust the recipe which I haven't tried.
I was really confused about the wine. Yesterday, I made fegato alla veneziana, and looked online for a recipe until I gave up and took out my well worn Elizabeth David. Because all the online recipes had too little onions and some wine in them. But then I thought maybe it comes from the French version of onion soup. This has the wine and the sugar, but not the cinnamon.
posted by mumimor at 12:10 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Amylase is not a "bad" additive and is deactivated by baking so there is zero amylase in baked bread. The bread did not make your soup sweet.
posted by O9scar at 1:04 AM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by O9scar at 1:04 AM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: How old school was this guy? How about "6 cups" doesn't mean what you think it means, but instead means "6 winecups"? Wikipedia says:
As a supplemental unit of apothecary measure, the wineglass (also known as wineglassful, pl. wineglassesful, or cyathus vinarius in pharmaceutical Latin) was defined as 1⁄8 of a pint, (2 fluid ounces by US measure, or 21⁄2 fluid ounces by imperial measure).[14]
So that would get you 12oz=1.5c wine, which is in line with what others suggested above, and half of the "lot of wine but trust us"3cup recipe linked above.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:08 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a supplemental unit of apothecary measure, the wineglass (also known as wineglassful, pl. wineglassesful, or cyathus vinarius in pharmaceutical Latin) was defined as 1⁄8 of a pint, (2 fluid ounces by US measure, or 21⁄2 fluid ounces by imperial measure).[14]
So that would get you 12oz=1.5c wine, which is in line with what others suggested above, and half of the "lot of wine but trust us"3cup recipe linked above.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:08 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for all your input so far! Responses below:
I am familiar with "better than bullion" (what I would call "chicken base"), but had never cooked with any kind of chicken broth (other than what I might make by mixing chicken base with water) before. The next time I try this, I will either add some chicken base (and maybe other herbs/aromatics per other comments here) to the store-bought broth, or make the broth from scratch.
https://i.imgur.com/iFaJRWJ.jpg?1
Perhaps it was written incorrectly or, as SaltySalticid (and some people I talked to offline) suggest, maybe a "cup" here doesn't mean 8 fluid ounces. The author of the recipe was born in the 1920s and probably wrote it down in the 1980s; I am told that in those days, a "cup" often meant "one of the kind of cup you would use to measure this particular substance" instead of a specific/standard volume.
https://www.amazon.com/Stirring-Up-Don-Curto/dp/0972491309
A picture of the page it was on is here:
https://i.imgur.com/iFaJRWJ.jpg?1
I didn't read the text incorrectly, but a lot of people are calling into question the meaning of the word "cup" as it pertains to measuring the wine. I strongly suspect that was a big part of the problem.
That's very interesting - I bet it was part of the problem! I think for my next attempt, I will just use ground cinnamon and add a very small amount at the end. But if the dish starts to approach "good", I'll find some Ceylon cinnamon sticks and try one of those.
Thanks again to everyone for your input! I think the next time I try this, I will use the much-reduced 12 fl oz of wine, a small amount of ground cinnamon at the end, and an improved chicken broth, and see what that's like. I have a feeling it might be really good.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:46 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Store bought no salt added broth tastes about one step away from water to me. If you want to make a good tasting soup, you have to make a good stock for the base.
[And several other comments on the broth]
I am familiar with "better than bullion" (what I would call "chicken base"), but had never cooked with any kind of chicken broth (other than what I might make by mixing chicken base with water) before. The next time I try this, I will either add some chicken base (and maybe other herbs/aromatics per other comments here) to the store-bought broth, or make the broth from scratch.
Sorry, six cups of wine? Not a food professional but I don’t think that’s typical for any recipe I’ve ever seen that calls for wine (usually more like half a cup or less, a cup would be a lot). Is it possible that part was garbled in transcription?Yeah, that does seem like a _lot_. And it tasted like too much in the finished soup. Here is the printed page where I got the recipe from:
https://i.imgur.com/iFaJRWJ.jpg?1
Perhaps it was written incorrectly or, as SaltySalticid (and some people I talked to offline) suggest, maybe a "cup" here doesn't mean 8 fluid ounces. The author of the recipe was born in the 1920s and probably wrote it down in the 1980s; I am told that in those days, a "cup" often meant "one of the kind of cup you would use to measure this particular substance" instead of a specific/standard volume.
Pinot Grigio is not necessarily a dry white wine… in fact, it can be very much on the sweet side. Did you taste the wine before you used it?Yup, I used a pinot grigio that I normally drink and consider dry. (I dislike the taste of sweet wines quite strongly.) But maybe I should seek out an even dryer (drier?) variety next time. Although, people have strongly called into question the quantity of wine used in other comments - a much smaller amount of pinot grigio might work just fine in this recipe.
2 BOTTLES OF WINE and a half loaf of bread is a "soup" recipe I'd expect to see as a punchline on ReductressThe bread actually worked really well in this soup - it disintegrated when whisked as the recipe suggested it would, and gave the broth a pleasant texture/thickness.
6 cups of white wine sounds insane. Like that's $20 worth of wine into a soup. Could it be a typo? What was the source of this recipe (online, book, old magazine)?It was from this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Stirring-Up-Don-Curto/dp/0972491309
A picture of the page it was on is here:
https://i.imgur.com/iFaJRWJ.jpg?1
I didn't read the text incorrectly, but a lot of people are calling into question the meaning of the word "cup" as it pertains to measuring the wine. I strongly suspect that was a big part of the problem.
You can always add in a touch [of cinnamon] later in the cooking if you think it is lacking those flavors.Agreed - the next time I try this, I will omit the cinnamon stick entirely and add pinches of ground cinnamon at the end if I think it needs some.
Adding a bit of sugar to onions, as they're being cooked, is a trick some people use to speed/aid caramelization of the onions. I suspect that the recipe does want you to caramelize the onions, and that's why the sugar is there.Oddly, the recipe calls for the sugar to be added _after_ the onions are finished cooking. So, I don't know on that part. But I still do wonder if the onions should have been caramelized to a greater extent than what I did. Something to potentially try on a future attempt.
I think this just isn’t to your taste… and judging by the reviews on those recipes, it seems that it’s relatively polarizing: you like it or not.That could definitely be the case! Although I am intrigued by the wine and cinnamon questions others have raised, and will experiment further with the recipe.
Most things sold as cinnamon these days are really cassia, which has a stronger flavor (and to which I, alas, am allergic). You can order Ceylon cinnamon online; it has a much softer and more subtle flavor.
[and other comments about the cinnamon]
That's very interesting - I bet it was part of the problem! I think for my next attempt, I will just use ground cinnamon and add a very small amount at the end. But if the dish starts to approach "good", I'll find some Ceylon cinnamon sticks and try one of those.
How old school was this guy? How about "6 cups" doesn't mean what you think it means, but instead means "6 winecups"?My goodness, I think you might be onto something here! The guy was quite old school - born in 1923 in a very remote part of Michigan's upper peninsula. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that he meant 2 fl oz (instead of 8) when he was referring to "cups" of wine. As you point out, this would bring the ratio much more in line with other similar recipes found online.
Thanks again to everyone for your input! I think the next time I try this, I will use the much-reduced 12 fl oz of wine, a small amount of ground cinnamon at the end, and an improved chicken broth, and see what that's like. I have a feeling it might be really good.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:46 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Oops, forgot one:
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:47 AM on February 6, 2023
that broth has a lot of sugar in it. "Rich chicken broth" means a broth made from cooking a chicken; it would not assume a bunch of added sugar at this step, like you got from the Target stuff.The broth I used says it contains 0g total carbohydrate, 0g total sugars, and 0g added sugars per 8 fl oz serving.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:47 AM on February 6, 2023
Do you have a convenient really good farmers market with a chicken purveyor? A local chicken purveyor sells their homemade refrigerated chicken stock by the quart. I've never bought it, but it seems to sell briskly. I think this has to be superior to any boxed or reconstituted-from-concentrate stock.
posted by citygirl at 6:06 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by citygirl at 6:06 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster:
posted by Juffo-Wup at 4:02 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do you have a convenient really good farmers market with a chicken purveyor? A local chicken purveyor sells their homemade refrigerated chicken stock by the quart.Whoa, that sounds great! I am not sure, but I'm definitely going to find out. Thanks!
posted by Juffo-Wup at 4:02 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you dont want to do that, at least buy the chicken Better Than Bullion and use that to jazz up your store broth. I would also add ground cinnamon a bit at a time to your broth and see what feels right for your taste. Remember than cinnamon will bloom with heat, so let it simmer a bit before you add more each time. I would also add parmesan rinds directly to the broth to flavor it. Basically, don't add the broth to the onions until you are happy with how it tastes on its own.
I also don't think of pinot grigio as a dry wine at all. I would lean towards a chardonnay or sav blanc next time.
This sounds like a pretty interesting soup, I may try to make some myself!
posted by ananci at 6:39 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]