Should I ask him out? Complication level-coworker
February 4, 2023 2:06 AM Subscribe
I know the general advice is to never date your co-workers, but I really like one of mine and am having some intense carpe diem/what’s the worst that could happen feelings. Help me figure out if asking him out is worth it. Snowflakes below.
-“Sam” and I are semi-regular collaborators at our workplace, but are not in the same department and do not have the same manager. Our titles and the structure of our employer are such that there is basically no scenario where we would ever be under the same boss, or end up with one of us reporting to the other. He works entirely on-site, I am mostly remote but come into the office periodically.
-We are close in age and both unambiguously single.
-We’ve been meeting up after work for drinks periodically since last summer, which is something he first initiated. It doesn’t feel especially flirty, we mostly end up talking about work, but the conversation is easy and fun and idk, I’m bad at reading vibes. He has been back to my house briefly after some of these meetups and gets along famously with my cat.
-Neither of us is making immediate plans to leave our employer anytime soon. I suspect I’d leave before he did, but even still, we’re probably looking at months or years before we’re no longer co-workers.
-I get why the advice not to date your co-workers exists. On one hand, I get that it might make my life awkward if it turns out he’s not interested, or if we did date and things blew up. On the other hand, I feel no deep loyalty to my employer, fascism and climate change are coming for us all, and someone I know just died suddenly this week. My mood is overwhelmingly one of, I only have this one short wild and precious life, shoot your shot.
Am I underestimating the worst that could happen? Are there other complications I’m not thinking through? Please talk me down from doing something impulsive and regrettable or offer your words of encouragement, I am open to either.
-“Sam” and I are semi-regular collaborators at our workplace, but are not in the same department and do not have the same manager. Our titles and the structure of our employer are such that there is basically no scenario where we would ever be under the same boss, or end up with one of us reporting to the other. He works entirely on-site, I am mostly remote but come into the office periodically.
-We are close in age and both unambiguously single.
-We’ve been meeting up after work for drinks periodically since last summer, which is something he first initiated. It doesn’t feel especially flirty, we mostly end up talking about work, but the conversation is easy and fun and idk, I’m bad at reading vibes. He has been back to my house briefly after some of these meetups and gets along famously with my cat.
-Neither of us is making immediate plans to leave our employer anytime soon. I suspect I’d leave before he did, but even still, we’re probably looking at months or years before we’re no longer co-workers.
-I get why the advice not to date your co-workers exists. On one hand, I get that it might make my life awkward if it turns out he’s not interested, or if we did date and things blew up. On the other hand, I feel no deep loyalty to my employer, fascism and climate change are coming for us all, and someone I know just died suddenly this week. My mood is overwhelmingly one of, I only have this one short wild and precious life, shoot your shot.
Am I underestimating the worst that could happen? Are there other complications I’m not thinking through? Please talk me down from doing something impulsive and regrettable or offer your words of encouragement, I am open to either.
really, truly, just do it.
posted by ominous_paws at 3:09 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 3:09 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
You never want to wonder, “what if?”
Don’t be afraid to live your life.
posted by keep it tight at 3:25 AM on February 4
Don’t be afraid to live your life.
posted by keep it tight at 3:25 AM on February 4
In general, I think the line about not dating at work is a bit overblown. Yeah, in some ideal world, we wouldn't mix our paychecks with our attractions, but I know multiple happy couples who started as coworkers.
Think of it this way, are you willing to let [random company] be the reason you didn't get to fall in love with someone?
Take the chance. As you say, you've only got one life to live.
posted by desert outpost at 3:28 AM on February 4 [9 favorites]
Think of it this way, are you willing to let [random company] be the reason you didn't get to fall in love with someone?
Take the chance. As you say, you've only got one life to live.
posted by desert outpost at 3:28 AM on February 4 [9 favorites]
At my current company, I can think of at least 3 very long-term couples who met on the job and continued working there for years. Especially if, as you say, you feel no deep loyalty to your employer and could hypothetically move on if anything REALLY blew up, I'd say give it a shot.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:00 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 4:00 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
are not in the same department and do not have the same manager. Our titles and the structure of our employer are such that there is basically no scenario where we would ever be under the same boss, or end up with one of us reporting to the other.
Go for it!
posted by evilmomlady at 4:02 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
Go for it!
posted by evilmomlady at 4:02 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
Have you seen him in non-work group situations and witnessed how he treats others? If not, I would first invite him to a couple group outings (and hope he invites you back to a group outing with his friends), just to see his dynamic with others.
I have been shocked a few times after hanging out 1:1 with someone over months or even years (and thinking they are perfectly nice) but one day, I see them with others, and they are quite different in a negative way! They were chameleons.
I've had friends who dated coworkers and later broke up and kept having to see their ex at work. In the majority of cases, it was fine. But in the worst cases, their exes argued with them at work, got angry when it seemed like my friend was dating again, used work as an excuse to semi-stalk them, etc.
Many people are mature enough that breaking up would be awkward but fine. But there are some people where you would absolutely block them on every channel if they were your ex, and it can be annoying if you cannot block them because you have to work with them.
Seeing this guy Sam in a few group situations and ideally meeting his friends would be a way to figure out if he is in the "mature adult who would be a normal ex" category. If he is, go for it!
posted by vienna at 4:23 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
I have been shocked a few times after hanging out 1:1 with someone over months or even years (and thinking they are perfectly nice) but one day, I see them with others, and they are quite different in a negative way! They were chameleons.
I've had friends who dated coworkers and later broke up and kept having to see their ex at work. In the majority of cases, it was fine. But in the worst cases, their exes argued with them at work, got angry when it seemed like my friend was dating again, used work as an excuse to semi-stalk them, etc.
Many people are mature enough that breaking up would be awkward but fine. But there are some people where you would absolutely block them on every channel if they were your ex, and it can be annoying if you cannot block them because you have to work with them.
Seeing this guy Sam in a few group situations and ideally meeting his friends would be a way to figure out if he is in the "mature adult who would be a normal ex" category. If he is, go for it!
posted by vienna at 4:23 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
A really important + helpful factor here is that you’re mostly remote. Some of the worst parts of dating at work, if things happen to end poorly, is the awkwardness of seeing each at work everyyyy dayyyy. So go for it, I say!
(source: I’ve done this, it ended poorly, but it didn’t impact my work and wasn’t weird because we were both remote employees)
posted by estlin at 4:24 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
(source: I’ve done this, it ended poorly, but it didn’t impact my work and wasn’t weird because we were both remote employees)
posted by estlin at 4:24 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
We’ve been meeting up after work for drinks periodically since last summer, which is something he first initiated. It doesn’t feel especially flirty, we mostly end up talking about work, but the conversation is easy and fun and idk, I’m bad at reading vibes. He has been back to my house briefly after some of these meetups and gets along famously with my cat.
Seems like he already sort of asked you out?
posted by staggernation at 4:53 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
Seems like he already sort of asked you out?
posted by staggernation at 4:53 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
The “don’t date co-workers” line is a company policy, not an individual one. It’s to protect the company. They don’t want to lose productivity.
For the individuals, there are good reasons not to, but there are good reasons not to date just about anyone. And there are counterexamples to nearly all of those rules. I met my wife on OKCupid. It’s up to you - usually some sort of cost-benefit analysis of whether the attraction outweighs any potential awkwardness. If it does, go for it.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:57 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
For the individuals, there are good reasons not to, but there are good reasons not to date just about anyone. And there are counterexamples to nearly all of those rules. I met my wife on OKCupid. It’s up to you - usually some sort of cost-benefit analysis of whether the attraction outweighs any potential awkwardness. If it does, go for it.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:57 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I would prob ask him out. "Rules" against it are likely the main reason he hasn't been flirtier, and I bet lots of us would say you were both flirting a lot at these hangouts if we saw you. I bet he's touched your hand/arm/shoulder over a laugh or vice versa right? If so, definitely go for it. And update us too if you don't mind :)
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:16 AM on February 4
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:16 AM on February 4
Do it! Not dating coworkers is a good default policy but it sounds like you've carefully thought through the big potential issues.
posted by needs more cowbell at 5:29 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 5:29 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
I feel like that rule exists just to warn people of the potential downside – and it's done it's job, in that you've already accounted for it. So, I'd say, go for it!
posted by nightcoast at 5:30 AM on February 4
posted by nightcoast at 5:30 AM on February 4
You are already dating your coworker. Congrats!
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:31 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:31 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
Yeah buy him some flowers or something, you've been dating for months. "Let's make it official!"
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:02 AM on February 4
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:02 AM on February 4
I think of the "don't date coworkers" rule as being more about "don't date your immediate coworkers" (because of awkwardness) and even more so, "don't date anyone with whom you currently or potentially share a supervisory relationship" (because of ethics). But someone within the same organization but in separate units seems totally ok as a personal thing (regardless of what company policy might say). Two people in my office started dating a year or two ago, and while they are in the same office and overlap slightly on work assignments sometimes, they report to different immediate supervisors and there is zero chance either of them would end up supervising the other. It's been comfortable and nice to see, and I'm not aware of anyone who has said anything even slightly disapproving.
It sounds like you are ready to say out loud, "Sam I really like getting drinks with you. Would you like to get dinner sometime as a date?"
This!
posted by Dip Flash at 6:20 AM on February 4
It sounds like you are ready to say out loud, "Sam I really like getting drinks with you. Would you like to get dinner sometime as a date?"
This!
posted by Dip Flash at 6:20 AM on February 4
Or you could say "what do you think about that kinda rule where you don't date coworkers?" which is kind of a big fukken hint but also deniable if things go sideways.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:29 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:29 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
Have a think about what would happen if you were together and then broke up. Would it affect your life at work? Would it be awkward?
posted by philsi at 6:38 AM on February 4
posted by philsi at 6:38 AM on February 4
I was not expecting to be the dissenting opinion, but as a someone who has dated coworkers and who has also made close platonic friends out of coworkers (and my parents were coworkers), I think if there was a chance of something romantic happening, it would’ve happened by now. The fact that you’ve been out for drinks alone this much, mostly talk about work, and don’t get a flirty vibe is how I would describe my early interactions with the coworkers who were always just friends. I would’ve been horrified if any of them asked me out after 8 months of that. If you need to confirm flirtiness levels, you need to be doing something besides talking about work, and the suggestion above about hanging out with groups of friends is a good one because it takes your relationship firmly out of the realm of commiserating coworkers and into people who are real life friends. Also maybe your friends can assess if you two have any non-friend chemistry.
posted by loulou718 at 7:01 AM on February 4 [18 favorites]
posted by loulou718 at 7:01 AM on February 4 [18 favorites]
What's the best that could happen?
For me, it's finding a life partner, has been since we first worked together 28 years ago. Work is truly one of the best places to meet people. There are risks that it won't work out - I had that happen numerous times before we found each other, but it was worth it.
posted by happy_cat at 7:04 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
For me, it's finding a life partner, has been since we first worked together 28 years ago. Work is truly one of the best places to meet people. There are risks that it won't work out - I had that happen numerous times before we found each other, but it was worth it.
posted by happy_cat at 7:04 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I think if there was a chance of something romantic happening, it would’ve happened by now. The fact that you’ve been out for drinks alone this much, mostly talk about work, and don’t get a flirty vibe is how I would describe my early interactions with the coworkers who were always just friends.
Eh, this sorta depends on Sam and the OP - some people don't flirt well or lack the confidence to interpret what is happening as flirting. I was friends with my current partner for a bit before I directly asked him out, and while we certainly really 'clicked' before, I'm not sure if we were ever flirty, at least not in the traditional sense.
To the OP - as others have pointed out, the main downside is ethics (if there is a power imbalance), which doesn't apply here, and then second, the fact that in most workplaces, it makes going 'no-contact' afterward if things go south next to impossible. But given you work mostly remote, and given that you seem to have a good feel as to whether Sam is likely to be a toxic person, this is also not much of an issue.
Of course, you could also lose a friend. But, you could also lose a friend if Sam or you got a new job. So yeah, go for it! If it helps, what got me to take a risk of asking my partner out was that I knew he was a kind person who at a minimum, valued our friendship. So I realized that even if he was going to reject me, he'd do it kindly. I also gave him a clear out "Hey, if I've misread things, I'm happy to just stay friends." I'd probably reassure Sam that if he says no, you're a mature adult who won't let that interfere in your work collaborations.
posted by coffeecat at 8:26 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Eh, this sorta depends on Sam and the OP - some people don't flirt well or lack the confidence to interpret what is happening as flirting. I was friends with my current partner for a bit before I directly asked him out, and while we certainly really 'clicked' before, I'm not sure if we were ever flirty, at least not in the traditional sense.
To the OP - as others have pointed out, the main downside is ethics (if there is a power imbalance), which doesn't apply here, and then second, the fact that in most workplaces, it makes going 'no-contact' afterward if things go south next to impossible. But given you work mostly remote, and given that you seem to have a good feel as to whether Sam is likely to be a toxic person, this is also not much of an issue.
Of course, you could also lose a friend. But, you could also lose a friend if Sam or you got a new job. So yeah, go for it! If it helps, what got me to take a risk of asking my partner out was that I knew he was a kind person who at a minimum, valued our friendship. So I realized that even if he was going to reject me, he'd do it kindly. I also gave him a clear out "Hey, if I've misread things, I'm happy to just stay friends." I'd probably reassure Sam that if he says no, you're a mature adult who won't let that interfere in your work collaborations.
posted by coffeecat at 8:26 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
the great thing about the general social code of not dating your co-workers is, if the person you ask out doesn't want to go out with you, he has the perfect regretful excuse that requires no evasive lies or inventing imaginary girlfriends or brutal honesties. he can just say Oh wow that's so flattering but since we work together I really can't.
so if a disinclination to court rejection plays any part in your reluctance to ask him out, consider that this is the best possible setup for a painless No you are ever going to get. anyway he might say yes. ask him out.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:53 AM on February 4
so if a disinclination to court rejection plays any part in your reluctance to ask him out, consider that this is the best possible setup for a painless No you are ever going to get. anyway he might say yes. ask him out.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:53 AM on February 4
You are already dating your coworker. Congrats!
Yeah buy him some flowers or something, you've been dating for months. "Let's make it official!"
Noooooo! You are not dating your coworker! Seriously, going out for drinks with a single person of the gender you are attracted to does not mean you are dating. I am a woman in a male dominated field, and one of the things that makes it difficult is that some people have this attitude. Male coworkers can be weird about hanging out with me, even though they hang out with guy coworkers one on one.
And some of them aren’t. I’ve gotten drinks with plenty of guys I work with alone, and we were absolutely never dating and I would have been HORRIFIED if they thought we were, or if they randomly bought me flowers?!!!? Trust me, you would know if you were already dating.
He may be flirty though! Or he may be interested. No harm in asking.
posted by sillysally at 9:10 AM on February 4 [42 favorites]
Yeah buy him some flowers or something, you've been dating for months. "Let's make it official!"
Noooooo! You are not dating your coworker! Seriously, going out for drinks with a single person of the gender you are attracted to does not mean you are dating. I am a woman in a male dominated field, and one of the things that makes it difficult is that some people have this attitude. Male coworkers can be weird about hanging out with me, even though they hang out with guy coworkers one on one.
And some of them aren’t. I’ve gotten drinks with plenty of guys I work with alone, and we were absolutely never dating and I would have been HORRIFIED if they thought we were, or if they randomly bought me flowers?!!!? Trust me, you would know if you were already dating.
He may be flirty though! Or he may be interested. No harm in asking.
posted by sillysally at 9:10 AM on February 4 [42 favorites]
You two have spent time together outside the work environment and he has not taken any steps toward moving the relationship into a more romantic connection. As a woman who has long been very comfortable taking the lead, I want to warn you that if he wants a romantic relationship but isn't doing anything to make that happen but is waiting for you to do so, then in my experience that is a pattern that will persist throughout any relationship you kindle. I stepped back from asking men out or initiating romantic gestures when I realized that I wasn't interested in being the person who always initiated sex and came up with plans for dates and ended up paying for the much greater part of our entertainment because, after all, it was always my idea.
posted by janey47 at 9:20 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by janey47 at 9:20 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Speaking as someone who has done everything from befriend to straight up marry a male coworker, this sounds like he sees you as a buddy to get drinks with after work.
I tend to think you should only ask out a coworker if the flirting has reached unbearable levels of intensity. On the other hand, maybe it’s worth it to you to give it a shot. Does he seem like he could be shy? Are you picking up ANY flirty signals?
posted by cakelite at 9:27 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I tend to think you should only ask out a coworker if the flirting has reached unbearable levels of intensity. On the other hand, maybe it’s worth it to you to give it a shot. Does he seem like he could be shy? Are you picking up ANY flirty signals?
posted by cakelite at 9:27 AM on February 4 [3 favorites]
You are very definitely already dating your coworker *but for* the two of you just saying it out loud. (The guy has been to your house, knows your cat. This is not what coworkers can say nor is it what coworkers who frequent after work happy hours to talk shop can say.)
There are massive implications in the workplace for a man to say it out loud first and massive pressures not to do so. He has been to your house and knows your cat. He is happy about that and so are you. That has nothing to do with working or hanging out after work.
Tell him that. Go forth!
posted by desert exile at 9:32 AM on February 4
There are massive implications in the workplace for a man to say it out loud first and massive pressures not to do so. He has been to your house and knows your cat. He is happy about that and so are you. That has nothing to do with working or hanging out after work.
Tell him that. Go forth!
posted by desert exile at 9:32 AM on February 4
I so so so disagree that casually hanging out with someone, especially a co worker means you are dating.
Consent and communication HAS to be the number one in dating. To presume otherwise is frankly, horrifying.
So far, he has consented to hanging out as a friend. Nothing indicates he thinks you are dating at this point with the information we have. There is no way to know if he wants to date without speaking to him.
To presume you are already dating - well that’s the stuff that could get you sent to HR and have someone feel very hurt and afraid and taken advantage of.
If you want to date him, ask him specifically on a date. But “the worst that could happen” is that he wanted a friend and then loses one. There are of course work involvements. I agree you should hang out, as friends, in other situations to see if there is a change in behavior that would make you reconsider wanting to date.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:42 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
Consent and communication HAS to be the number one in dating. To presume otherwise is frankly, horrifying.
So far, he has consented to hanging out as a friend. Nothing indicates he thinks you are dating at this point with the information we have. There is no way to know if he wants to date without speaking to him.
To presume you are already dating - well that’s the stuff that could get you sent to HR and have someone feel very hurt and afraid and taken advantage of.
If you want to date him, ask him specifically on a date. But “the worst that could happen” is that he wanted a friend and then loses one. There are of course work involvements. I agree you should hang out, as friends, in other situations to see if there is a change in behavior that would make you reconsider wanting to date.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:42 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
I’m so confused by the answers that say you’re already dating. Please disregard them. That’s…insanely incorrect.
The only criteria for a date is if both parties have agreed it’s a date. Neither of you have agreed to date.
I do agree with the advice that you can date coworkers unproblematically in some cases, and this could be one of them. You can certainly bring it up and see what he says!
You just have to be prepared for the kinds of issues that can arise when you have to work with someone you dated, slept with, fought with, possibly broke up with, possibly got jilted by, etc etc.
Workplace issues aside, in this case I do think the bigger issue is you have to be prepared for rejection and how uncomfortable it will be for both of you if he shoots you down. I know some guys are super shy or strict or whatever but if I’ve been drinking with a guy for months and he’s never tried to kiss me, or at least said something unambiguous about being into me, my conclusion is he’s not gonna be my boyfriend.
posted by kapers at 10:22 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
The only criteria for a date is if both parties have agreed it’s a date. Neither of you have agreed to date.
I do agree with the advice that you can date coworkers unproblematically in some cases, and this could be one of them. You can certainly bring it up and see what he says!
You just have to be prepared for the kinds of issues that can arise when you have to work with someone you dated, slept with, fought with, possibly broke up with, possibly got jilted by, etc etc.
Workplace issues aside, in this case I do think the bigger issue is you have to be prepared for rejection and how uncomfortable it will be for both of you if he shoots you down. I know some guys are super shy or strict or whatever but if I’ve been drinking with a guy for months and he’s never tried to kiss me, or at least said something unambiguous about being into me, my conclusion is he’s not gonna be my boyfriend.
posted by kapers at 10:22 AM on February 4 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately I gotta agree with kapers and loulou718 in that I would probably place my bet on "not interested." God knows I shot my shot with someone who was flirtier with me than this and he was apparently not even a tiny bit interested and never was or would be, and this guy sounds very neutral at best.
So while it sounds pretty not-very-consequency if you shoot your shot, because then at least you know for sure, think about how you're going to handle the awkwardness of openly expressing interest and then him saying no, and if you can take that. It may very well end the friendship as it is now if he gets uncomfortable/feels like he's leading you on (and frankly, yes, I kept Having Ideas even after being shot down because he didn't seem indifferent) by still hanging out with you. Or if you're going to keep having feelings if you do keep hanging out with him. Or if you feel so awful after trying that you don't want to any more.
I'm not gonna say no, don't say it, because it might be worth it to you to know you tried. But think out the consequences before you shoot. I know I shot mine RIGHT before doing a show with him for months and then had to deal with him on another show after he was much more brutal about his lack of feelings, and that sucked on high. You're going to still have to collaborate with this guy for months/years after he says no (presuming he says no), can you handle that? If you can, then shoot away and I wish you good luck. I would also say to pick a time where you can get some breathing space from him for awhile if it doesn't go well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
So while it sounds pretty not-very-consequency if you shoot your shot, because then at least you know for sure, think about how you're going to handle the awkwardness of openly expressing interest and then him saying no, and if you can take that. It may very well end the friendship as it is now if he gets uncomfortable/feels like he's leading you on (and frankly, yes, I kept Having Ideas even after being shot down because he didn't seem indifferent) by still hanging out with you. Or if you're going to keep having feelings if you do keep hanging out with him. Or if you feel so awful after trying that you don't want to any more.
I'm not gonna say no, don't say it, because it might be worth it to you to know you tried. But think out the consequences before you shoot. I know I shot mine RIGHT before doing a show with him for months and then had to deal with him on another show after he was much more brutal about his lack of feelings, and that sucked on high. You're going to still have to collaborate with this guy for months/years after he says no (presuming he says no), can you handle that? If you can, then shoot away and I wish you good luck. I would also say to pick a time where you can get some breathing space from him for awhile if it doesn't go well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I add my total disagreement to the idea that you are actually already dating your coworker.
I'll further say that anecdotally I have dated coworkers in the past and personally wouldn't do it again, and that you are underestimating the worst things that can happen. I really do not want to get into the details here and I'm aware that other people have different experiences with this, but having done this twice I just can't enthusiastically recommend it at all.
posted by sm1tten at 10:33 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
I'll further say that anecdotally I have dated coworkers in the past and personally wouldn't do it again, and that you are underestimating the worst things that can happen. I really do not want to get into the details here and I'm aware that other people have different experiences with this, but having done this twice I just can't enthusiastically recommend it at all.
posted by sm1tten at 10:33 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
you don't say you're a woman but everyone is assuming it and while the advice to keep your feelings to yourself may be the best advice, please do disregard all of it that does assume you're a woman. that's only if you are one that you must disregard it, you understand.
this idea that men like above all to be the movers and shakers and starters and generals of everything and especially of love and sex, and so while we pay genteel lip service to the idea that women can ask men out, we all know that if they were really interested they'd take the reins and be the mighty engines of it all -- it isn't based on nothing, but it is repulsive. making the conscious decision to be passive and wait to be asked, in the face of knowing perfectly well what you want and knowing that you COULD be the one to ask for it, politely and respectfully and ready to take a no, like a gentleman, that actively perpetuates it and recreates it. men deserve to live in a world where they, too, might be politely but unexpectedly propositioned at any socially appropriate time and have to scramble for a nice but firm response. I mean "deserve" in both the generous and the ungenerous sense. it makes for a better world even if he turns out not to be interested. for real.
so if you decide not to go for it out of prudence, fine and good. but for god's sake don't back down because "a man" who was interested would have already etc. etc. etc.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:55 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
this idea that men like above all to be the movers and shakers and starters and generals of everything and especially of love and sex, and so while we pay genteel lip service to the idea that women can ask men out, we all know that if they were really interested they'd take the reins and be the mighty engines of it all -- it isn't based on nothing, but it is repulsive. making the conscious decision to be passive and wait to be asked, in the face of knowing perfectly well what you want and knowing that you COULD be the one to ask for it, politely and respectfully and ready to take a no, like a gentleman, that actively perpetuates it and recreates it. men deserve to live in a world where they, too, might be politely but unexpectedly propositioned at any socially appropriate time and have to scramble for a nice but firm response. I mean "deserve" in both the generous and the ungenerous sense. it makes for a better world even if he turns out not to be interested. for real.
so if you decide not to go for it out of prudence, fine and good. but for god's sake don't back down because "a man" who was interested would have already etc. etc. etc.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:55 AM on February 4 [10 favorites]
Yeah, while I do think you should ask him out, I definitely don't think you're dating just because he's met your cat! I have had a number of platonic male friendships that involved 1-on-1 drinks or hangouts, and who met my pets - that's why I think you ought to be direct if you go this route - explicitly see if he'd be interested in dating. I would find it a major turn off if someone assumed that because I was friendly with them, that meant I was secretly pining for them.
posted by coffeecat at 11:08 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 11:08 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
My advice would be the same in any gender arrangement: a) you have to ask because you can’t assume; b) in this case as long as you’re cognizant of workplace complications, the workplace thing isn’t insurmountable; and c) prepare for the very real possibility you’ll be rejected, because this person hasn’t made a move or sent you any of the signals people typically send you when they want you.
posted by kapers at 11:25 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by kapers at 11:25 AM on February 4 [1 favorite]
So here’s the thing. I like being friends with people, of same sex and opposite sex. I have been single in the past, and my standards are fairly high for romantic partners. As a single person, I have asked people for drinks or even dinner, cos I like their company … as friends. Sometimes, to my utmost horror, they assume it’s a date??!! It’s very hard to walk back down from that awkwardness and I don’t ever hang out with them alone again.
In other words: we don’t know whether he is interested in you or not. If you do genuinely really like him as a romantic partner, then you can try. But you may fail, and you might lose a drinking after-work buddy. Or it may succeed. No one here knows. The lack of flirtiness may indicate something (maybe).
I would suggest a move of more plausible deniability. How about you up the stakes a little, be a little more friendly, hand on arm, that kind of thing? Invite him to events -“hey, we were speaking about museums and they have a late night special event?” You don’t need to say it’s a date. If he says he’s too busy — you have your answer (probably!). If he agrees, check out the vibe. Invite him to more things. If he declines, then scale your invites back down to hanging out after work. Unlike what askmefi likes to think, not everything needs a clear label. Sometimes you can just explore what your friendship is, and what it’s not.
posted by moiraine at 11:57 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
In other words: we don’t know whether he is interested in you or not. If you do genuinely really like him as a romantic partner, then you can try. But you may fail, and you might lose a drinking after-work buddy. Or it may succeed. No one here knows. The lack of flirtiness may indicate something (maybe).
I would suggest a move of more plausible deniability. How about you up the stakes a little, be a little more friendly, hand on arm, that kind of thing? Invite him to events -“hey, we were speaking about museums and they have a late night special event?” You don’t need to say it’s a date. If he says he’s too busy — you have your answer (probably!). If he agrees, check out the vibe. Invite him to more things. If he declines, then scale your invites back down to hanging out after work. Unlike what askmefi likes to think, not everything needs a clear label. Sometimes you can just explore what your friendship is, and what it’s not.
posted by moiraine at 11:57 AM on February 4 [4 favorites]
As a single person, I have asked people for drinks or even dinner, cos I like their company … as friends. Sometimes, to my utmost horror, they assume it’s a date??!!
This is also how dates begin among single people. Like, exactly. I’m not sure why you would be utmostly horrified at this assumption and would suggest that you also not invite them into your home to get to know your cat without also assuming they might assume you might like them perhaps romantically maybe or are at least willing to consider a basic conversation about it.
Seriously, I think that the OP has enough to go on here to assume some romantic interest without being worried that expressing her own is violating some written in stone commandment about dating co-workers or horrifying the object of her potential affection.
Co-workers aren’t in your home with your cats unless they are also friends. Friends can talk about whether they’d like to date or not (or agree they already are) without horror.
Go for it!
posted by desert exile at 12:11 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
This is also how dates begin among single people. Like, exactly. I’m not sure why you would be utmostly horrified at this assumption and would suggest that you also not invite them into your home to get to know your cat without also assuming they might assume you might like them perhaps romantically maybe or are at least willing to consider a basic conversation about it.
Seriously, I think that the OP has enough to go on here to assume some romantic interest without being worried that expressing her own is violating some written in stone commandment about dating co-workers or horrifying the object of her potential affection.
Co-workers aren’t in your home with your cats unless they are also friends. Friends can talk about whether they’d like to date or not (or agree they already are) without horror.
Go for it!
posted by desert exile at 12:11 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
If Sam doesn't hang out with other people after work the way he hangs out with you, and if Sam has made it quite clear that he is definitely single, and yet hasn't moaned at you about how terrible the dating scene is lately and/or how bad his dates are, and you feel that Sam is a good friend who would otherwise tell you those things in a comiserating way, and you are also not talking about your failed dating experiments and have made it very clear to Sam that you are also definitely single, then I think what you have there is a pile of kindling that is waiting for a match of someone who would take the risk of saying "Would you to go on to /favourite hangout/ together as an actual date?" or any of a thousand other "i want to if you want to" passes.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:29 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:29 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
Neither of us is making immediate plans to leave our employer anytime soon.
The biggest risk here is that things could go badly enough that one or both of you would end up having to leave. If things ended up going very badly, you might not be able to be semi-regular collaborators. If it goes really badly, just seeing the person in Slack/Teams/whatever on a regular basis might be unpleasant. Few people go into a relationship thinking that the other person might turn out to be a complete asshole, but my personal track record tends me be remaining friends with half of my exes but never wanting to see the other half ever again.
That said, I dated a coworker and it was fine. We made sure we didn't violate any corporate policies and other than a little extra gossip at work at first, the fact that we worked at the same company had little impact other than the fact we could talk about our work days in more detail than we might ordinarily have (both because of privacy and understanding the context). We ended things on a friendly note after a short relationship so there was no drama or fallout.
You sound like you've thought things through so I'd take your shot, just be aware that there is at least a small risk.
posted by Candleman at 12:47 PM on February 4
The biggest risk here is that things could go badly enough that one or both of you would end up having to leave. If things ended up going very badly, you might not be able to be semi-regular collaborators. If it goes really badly, just seeing the person in Slack/Teams/whatever on a regular basis might be unpleasant. Few people go into a relationship thinking that the other person might turn out to be a complete asshole, but my personal track record tends me be remaining friends with half of my exes but never wanting to see the other half ever again.
That said, I dated a coworker and it was fine. We made sure we didn't violate any corporate policies and other than a little extra gossip at work at first, the fact that we worked at the same company had little impact other than the fact we could talk about our work days in more detail than we might ordinarily have (both because of privacy and understanding the context). We ended things on a friendly note after a short relationship so there was no drama or fallout.
You sound like you've thought things through so I'd take your shot, just be aware that there is at least a small risk.
posted by Candleman at 12:47 PM on February 4
You are very definitely already dating your coworker *but for* the two of you just saying it out loud. (The guy has been to your house, knows your cat. This is not what coworkers can say nor is it what coworkers who frequent after work happy hours to talk shop can say.)
So while it is possible that both of them are feeling like they are right on the edge of dating (and I hope this is the case!), I need to disagree that hanging out and meeting someone's pet means you are dating. I have had many, many platonic hangouts with coworkers, and sometimes that has involved meeting their pets at their houses. It wasn't flirty and it didn't mean anything more than that we were friendly with one another and there was enough trust to welcome me into their house. (In fact, I think it was precisely because there was zero flirty vibe that they were welcoming.)
Like I said previously, I think the asker should find a way to explicitly or implicitly ask him out. There's advantages to unambiguously asking someone on a date, but there's also a lot of comfort in slowly edging up the intimacy and use small increments to establish mutual interest. Both are fine, as long as you are ready to accept that there might be a refusal. And a refusal isn't the only awkward outcome; you could end up having a "hit it and quit it" hookup that leaves you still single and now with a potentially difficult coworker situation, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:51 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
So while it is possible that both of them are feeling like they are right on the edge of dating (and I hope this is the case!), I need to disagree that hanging out and meeting someone's pet means you are dating. I have had many, many platonic hangouts with coworkers, and sometimes that has involved meeting their pets at their houses. It wasn't flirty and it didn't mean anything more than that we were friendly with one another and there was enough trust to welcome me into their house. (In fact, I think it was precisely because there was zero flirty vibe that they were welcoming.)
Like I said previously, I think the asker should find a way to explicitly or implicitly ask him out. There's advantages to unambiguously asking someone on a date, but there's also a lot of comfort in slowly edging up the intimacy and use small increments to establish mutual interest. Both are fine, as long as you are ready to accept that there might be a refusal. And a refusal isn't the only awkward outcome; you could end up having a "hit it and quit it" hookup that leaves you still single and now with a potentially difficult coworker situation, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:51 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
Friends can talk about whether they’d like to date or not (or agree they already are) without horror.
This is where Askmefi splits into two camps. One camp, of which I am in, does not view every friend as a potential lover. A heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman can be friends and hang out and see pets and be completely platonic. Just as the woman wouldn’t ask her female friends whether they should be lovers merely because they hang out and see each other’s pets, neither does she do that for her snake friend either.
Her male friend MAY be interested in something more, but it MAY be rude or detrimental to the friendship, especially if he hasn’t considered her that way before.
So gradually upping the stakes with a option of a graceful exit or decline is the way to go here.
posted by moiraine at 1:38 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
This is where Askmefi splits into two camps. One camp, of which I am in, does not view every friend as a potential lover. A heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman can be friends and hang out and see pets and be completely platonic. Just as the woman wouldn’t ask her female friends whether they should be lovers merely because they hang out and see each other’s pets, neither does she do that for her snake friend either.
Her male friend MAY be interested in something more, but it MAY be rude or detrimental to the friendship, especially if he hasn’t considered her that way before.
So gradually upping the stakes with a option of a graceful exit or decline is the way to go here.
posted by moiraine at 1:38 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
A heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman can be friends and hang out and see pets and be completely platonic
I mean yes they can, obviously. But in the vast majority of cases, spending time alone with the opposite sex you are eligible to date means that there is a romantic valence. The default is that it is dating. The default can be dispelled by additional context (like you only see each other at work, or you are married, or you tried dating before, or hou are roommates). But the default is romantic interest.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:54 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I mean yes they can, obviously. But in the vast majority of cases, spending time alone with the opposite sex you are eligible to date means that there is a romantic valence. The default is that it is dating. The default can be dispelled by additional context (like you only see each other at work, or you are married, or you tried dating before, or hou are roommates). But the default is romantic interest.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:54 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
But in the vast majority of cases, spending time alone with the opposite sex you are eligible to date means that there is a romantic valence.
I recognize that many people feel this way, but this is completely, 100% foreign to my life experience. It's basically the same thinking that underlies Pence's never dine alone with a woman rule.
Specific to the question here, this is why the asker needs to find a way to get clarity, whether by asking directly or by edging towards intimacy. The guy in question may be feeling this way and may be defaulting to romance, or he might just be a guy who is comfortable hanging out platonically with a coworker regardless of gender/sexuality. There is no universal, shared "default" about this.
It's also worth repeating the point made above that the asker does not specify their gender/sexuality, and the question can be answered without making that assumption.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:23 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
I recognize that many people feel this way, but this is completely, 100% foreign to my life experience. It's basically the same thinking that underlies Pence's never dine alone with a woman rule.
Specific to the question here, this is why the asker needs to find a way to get clarity, whether by asking directly or by edging towards intimacy. The guy in question may be feeling this way and may be defaulting to romance, or he might just be a guy who is comfortable hanging out platonically with a coworker regardless of gender/sexuality. There is no universal, shared "default" about this.
It's also worth repeating the point made above that the asker does not specify their gender/sexuality, and the question can be answered without making that assumption.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:23 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
I have a circle of friends (hello lady campfire club!) where only one of us isn't happily partnered with someone they met at work. Where the heck else do you get to know people these days? go for it.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:45 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:45 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Things I learned from my asking-him-out experience:
don't back down because "a man" who was interested would have already etc. etc. etc.
Well, mine would say things like, "I could never get up the nerve to ask a woman out" and "I like women but I can never ask them out" and things like that, which to me seemed like hinting that I'd have to take the lead. In retrospect...I dunno. But perhaps if he has secret interest, he does need to be showing more obvious interest? Hell, mine wasn't interested at all apparently and yet he gave off more "I like you" vibe than this guy gives me from reading, unless I'm missing something. Does this guy ever treat you differently/warmly from everyone else? Touch you when he doesn't need to? Ever seem a bit flirty in any way? I hate to say "watch those videos on whether or not he likes you on YouTube" because I did that and was wrong (and also verified with others over the years who said it sounded like he did) but...well, there's behaviors people do if they likey-like you on some level over just plain coworkers.
Oh, and my therapist suggested not using the word date when I asked him out so as to not freak him out (I note he freaked when he thought it might be a date anyway). Per the book on asking a guy out I read, um...spell out it's a date so he can reject you right off.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:18 PM on February 4
don't back down because "a man" who was interested would have already etc. etc. etc.
Well, mine would say things like, "I could never get up the nerve to ask a woman out" and "I like women but I can never ask them out" and things like that, which to me seemed like hinting that I'd have to take the lead. In retrospect...I dunno. But perhaps if he has secret interest, he does need to be showing more obvious interest? Hell, mine wasn't interested at all apparently and yet he gave off more "I like you" vibe than this guy gives me from reading, unless I'm missing something. Does this guy ever treat you differently/warmly from everyone else? Touch you when he doesn't need to? Ever seem a bit flirty in any way? I hate to say "watch those videos on whether or not he likes you on YouTube" because I did that and was wrong (and also verified with others over the years who said it sounded like he did) but...well, there's behaviors people do if they likey-like you on some level over just plain coworkers.
Oh, and my therapist suggested not using the word date when I asked him out so as to not freak him out (I note he freaked when he thought it might be a date anyway). Per the book on asking a guy out I read, um...spell out it's a date so he can reject you right off.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:18 PM on February 4
I agree that it’s OK to ask him out and that he’s probably not interested in dating you.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:58 PM on February 4
posted by smorgasbord at 3:58 PM on February 4
Are you prepared to find a new job immediately if things go south? That's the ultimate question.
I dated a coworker and while the relationship was good it negatively affected my work environment in ways I didn't foresee. I had already been planning to leave so it wasn't a big deal in the long run but it would have absolutely impacted my ability to remain there long term.
Also, what is your employer's policy on employee relationships? One of my former employers specified that if there were any issues they reserved the right to fire whichever employee was deemed less valuable to the company.
posted by fox problems at 4:32 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I dated a coworker and while the relationship was good it negatively affected my work environment in ways I didn't foresee. I had already been planning to leave so it wasn't a big deal in the long run but it would have absolutely impacted my ability to remain there long term.
Also, what is your employer's policy on employee relationships? One of my former employers specified that if there were any issues they reserved the right to fire whichever employee was deemed less valuable to the company.
posted by fox problems at 4:32 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I have been thinking of your question and all the answers. There are so many possibilities! I'm going to reiterate many of the things that have already been mentioned; I bring them up again in terms of how they relate to my own life in case more anecdotes help.
I agree with the people who have said that we shouldn't assume two single people are automatically interested or dating. I have had colleagues or friends whom I like a lot over to meet my cat or gone out to bars together. I'm bisexual so the mindset of everyone being an option and/or interested is not only untrue but also kind of scary!! I agree that he would likely have made some sort of move but it depends on other factors. For me as a bold woman, I would either try to make a move (asking directly) if I liked someone; if I sensed someone liked me and I didn't like them back, I would distance myself politely. So at least he's enjoying your company enough on some level/s that you're not scaring him off?! I mean, he could be gay but not out and his big secret is waiting to tell you just as your big secret is that you like him. Oh my, life can be complicated! But that actually might be easier to tell with, you know?!
In any case, I will say this: a lot of men -- or frankly people of all genders -- are lonely. These days as a bold woman (for a lack of better phrasing!) I sometimes will go out with or befriend men who like me enough to hang out with but not to really date. They are rarely egomanics but rather shy and afraid to tell me they're not actually interested because they are lonely and don't want to lose my company. I agree with the suggestion of getting a second opinion from a friend. To me the biggest "hmmm" is that he's never invited you to hang out with him and his friends nor have you. This tells me he either sees you as "just" a work friend (and that he's trying to keep his private life secret and separate) or that he has no local friends! Neither is bad but it's not a very positive sign for relationship potential. If you invite him to a small group outing and he says no thanks without suggesting alternate plans, then he's probably not interested romantically. Someone shy-but-interested but jump on the opportunity to get to know you better, either as a friend or a date; someone kind but who isn't interested and/or prefers firm boundaries at work would likely decline. After you've hung out that way a few times, I think you'll be able to gauge things better.
Also, as others have said, if the fear of missing out is greater than the fear of rejection and awkwardness, then go for it. I dated a teacher colleague once and it was OK; it was more awkward for them after than it was for me, and oddly my teenage students picked up on the vibe even though I didn't talk about it or act differently. (Eeek, right? Fortunately you're dealing with adults but they notice things too.) I have dated roommates too and it wasn't awkward for me after but it was for them! These days I have very firm boundaries although I would reconsider if I felt there was a genuine connection and ready to do as others have said, find a new job if necessary; my job is just too important to me these days. Also FWIW I have never regretted not asking someone out after time passed.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:02 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I agree with the people who have said that we shouldn't assume two single people are automatically interested or dating. I have had colleagues or friends whom I like a lot over to meet my cat or gone out to bars together. I'm bisexual so the mindset of everyone being an option and/or interested is not only untrue but also kind of scary!! I agree that he would likely have made some sort of move but it depends on other factors. For me as a bold woman, I would either try to make a move (asking directly) if I liked someone; if I sensed someone liked me and I didn't like them back, I would distance myself politely. So at least he's enjoying your company enough on some level/s that you're not scaring him off?! I mean, he could be gay but not out and his big secret is waiting to tell you just as your big secret is that you like him. Oh my, life can be complicated! But that actually might be easier to tell with, you know?!
In any case, I will say this: a lot of men -- or frankly people of all genders -- are lonely. These days as a bold woman (for a lack of better phrasing!) I sometimes will go out with or befriend men who like me enough to hang out with but not to really date. They are rarely egomanics but rather shy and afraid to tell me they're not actually interested because they are lonely and don't want to lose my company. I agree with the suggestion of getting a second opinion from a friend. To me the biggest "hmmm" is that he's never invited you to hang out with him and his friends nor have you. This tells me he either sees you as "just" a work friend (and that he's trying to keep his private life secret and separate) or that he has no local friends! Neither is bad but it's not a very positive sign for relationship potential. If you invite him to a small group outing and he says no thanks without suggesting alternate plans, then he's probably not interested romantically. Someone shy-but-interested but jump on the opportunity to get to know you better, either as a friend or a date; someone kind but who isn't interested and/or prefers firm boundaries at work would likely decline. After you've hung out that way a few times, I think you'll be able to gauge things better.
Also, as others have said, if the fear of missing out is greater than the fear of rejection and awkwardness, then go for it. I dated a teacher colleague once and it was OK; it was more awkward for them after than it was for me, and oddly my teenage students picked up on the vibe even though I didn't talk about it or act differently. (Eeek, right? Fortunately you're dealing with adults but they notice things too.) I have dated roommates too and it wasn't awkward for me after but it was for them! These days I have very firm boundaries although I would reconsider if I felt there was a genuine connection and ready to do as others have said, find a new job if necessary; my job is just too important to me these days. Also FWIW I have never regretted not asking someone out after time passed.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:02 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
just ask him. "Hey, do you want to go on a date with me on Saturday?"
he'll say yes or no. Either way is fine!
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:22 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
he'll say yes or no. Either way is fine!
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:22 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
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It sounds like you are ready to say out loud, "Sam I really like getting drinks with you. Would you like to get dinner sometime as a date?"
posted by mmascolino at 3:05 AM on February 4 [15 favorites]