Friend won't listen ... but maybe they shouldn't have to?
January 26, 2023 6:46 AM Subscribe
Friend asked me if I would be willing to mend a couple of pairs of jeans. She offered $20 per pair. I said I would be happy to mend them on the condition that I do it for free as a friend, and that she just "pay if forward". I picked up the jeans, mended them, and delivered them back to her with a note that said, "Again, I've mended these at no charge other than to pay it forward, since we are friends." Later, friend left an envelope on my door containing $50 (even though her original terms were $20 per jeans = $40).
I feel like I made my terms clear regarding the jeans and that the fact that she handed over the jeans without negotiating my terms meant that she accepted my terms.
Also, I have extreme acid reflux and absolutely cannot eat chocolate, as it results in a lot of pain and discomfort. I have told friend this more than once in the past. Still, she left a box of chocolates along with the $50. She also gave me chocolates for my birthday, and a mega-sized box of chocolates for Christmas.
Any advice as to how to manage this would be much appreciated. (I suppose one option is to manage it by just accepting the $ and tossing or giving away the chocolates.)
I feel like I made my terms clear regarding the jeans and that the fact that she handed over the jeans without negotiating my terms meant that she accepted my terms.
Also, I have extreme acid reflux and absolutely cannot eat chocolate, as it results in a lot of pain and discomfort. I have told friend this more than once in the past. Still, she left a box of chocolates along with the $50. She also gave me chocolates for my birthday, and a mega-sized box of chocolates for Christmas.
Any advice as to how to manage this would be much appreciated. (I suppose one option is to manage it by just accepting the $ and tossing or giving away the chocolates.)
Some people are weird or awkward about things like this. Like when the party invitation says "no gifts" some people just HAVE to bring a gift.
Give the money to a homeless person or charity. Give the chocolate to someone else. Thank your friend. You don't need to make a thing out of it.
posted by bondcliff at 6:51 AM on January 26, 2023 [78 favorites]
Give the money to a homeless person or charity. Give the chocolate to someone else. Thank your friend. You don't need to make a thing out of it.
posted by bondcliff at 6:51 AM on January 26, 2023 [78 favorites]
Yep, keep the spirit of PIF, and move that stuff along.
And perhaps reframe it this way: they are being clear that they value you and your work. Absent other signs you haven't mentioned, I would say that it's a sign they are encouraging you to value your time, too. (But maybe I'm an optimist...)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 AM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
And perhaps reframe it this way: they are being clear that they value you and your work. Absent other signs you haven't mentioned, I would say that it's a sign they are encouraging you to value your time, too. (But maybe I'm an optimist...)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 AM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
I hate it when people pay me for a favor. It makes me feel like they think of me as hired help even though I'm pretty sure they don't. But it's my hang up and it makes me feel dirty and weird so I've just stopped saying I'll do favors like that anymore.
As for the chocolate, you could say something right when they give it to you. Something like, "oh these look lovely but I still can't eat chocolate because of my reflux." And then just hand them back. I would hope that they'd get the message after a few times but if not, at least you won't have to have one more thing to get rid of or feel bad about throwing out.
posted by dawkins_7 at 6:57 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
As for the chocolate, you could say something right when they give it to you. Something like, "oh these look lovely but I still can't eat chocolate because of my reflux." And then just hand them back. I would hope that they'd get the message after a few times but if not, at least you won't have to have one more thing to get rid of or feel bad about throwing out.
posted by dawkins_7 at 6:57 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yep, I'd move that stuff on to someone who will appreciate it, thank your friend, and make a mental note that this is a friend who's not comfortable accepting favors on a "pay it forward" basis. Since you're not comfortable being compensated for your time for doing favors like this, this probably means this isn't a friendship that should run on favors moving forward.
Next time she tries to give you chocolate in person, though, that is definitely a good time to hand it right back with a "thank you for thinking of me, but I can't eat these - please enjoy them yourself or share them with another friend!" Maybe if you do that enough times she'll finally remember about the damn chocolate, and if not, at least the chocolate will stop being your problem to dispose of.
posted by Stacey at 7:00 AM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Next time she tries to give you chocolate in person, though, that is definitely a good time to hand it right back with a "thank you for thinking of me, but I can't eat these - please enjoy them yourself or share them with another friend!" Maybe if you do that enough times she'll finally remember about the damn chocolate, and if not, at least the chocolate will stop being your problem to dispose of.
posted by Stacey at 7:00 AM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ugh, I'm so sorry. This is me (the friend). I have the worst and hardest time taking generous gifts like this. I'm just SO BAD at it. I forced some Starbucks gift cards on friends who helped me move (I had purchased them beforehand), even though they kept insisting they didn't want anything. I have since regretted doing that, and I try to think about these things. I think part of it has to do with making ABSOLUTELY sure that people don't think I'm taking advantage of them, I guess that feels like one of the worst things a person can do. But I understand now that it can feel insulting - though I can pretty much guarantee the opposite is intended.
So, I'm sure it's very frustrating but they are only trying to do their best like everyone, if that helps you be less irritated about it?
That much said, the repeated chocolate thing is ridiculous. Additional, and maybe blunter, reminders may be needed.
One option might be to take this friend out for a coffee or lunch and have a conversation about this stuff. If not, lots of good suggestions above.
posted by Glinn at 7:06 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, I'm sure it's very frustrating but they are only trying to do their best like everyone, if that helps you be less irritated about it?
That much said, the repeated chocolate thing is ridiculous. Additional, and maybe blunter, reminders may be needed.
One option might be to take this friend out for a coffee or lunch and have a conversation about this stuff. If not, lots of good suggestions above.
posted by Glinn at 7:06 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
I feel like norms and communication around this stuff are so different, and often there's a politeness/bargaining, people don't say what they mean. It could be read as being a game of who is the better friend- "No of course I'll do it for free!" "No of course I'll pay you more than I stated and something extra for being so generous as to even say you'll do it for free". So I guess assume that she's someone who values conventionality/indirectness around situations like this rather than direct communication.
posted by mosswinter at 7:09 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mosswinter at 7:09 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Accept it as a gift rather than payment, and dispose of it however you like.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think I've been this friend minus the chocolate. I have a Thing about people providing craft-like unpaid labour; this comes from having had a small craft-based business in the past where lots of people who were close to me or my family thought that if they "bought the supplies" I would be happy to do the labour (jewelry design using vintage buttons) for free. And that was a thing that wasn't as complex as say, knitting, where people can't believe what a very minimal hourly compensation for labour would be.
Anyways, on behalf of your friend in the future when she calms down, I apologize.
I hope sharing my thoughts helps you think better of your friend even if they are being lame.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyways, on behalf of your friend in the future when she calms down, I apologize.
I hope sharing my thoughts helps you think better of your friend even if they are being lame.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t really know what “pay it forward” means in this case. Like do something nice for someone else some day?? I would be inclined to do something similar to your friend just to show I valued you, and also because I don’t really know what “pay it forward” means and it feels weirdly nebulous.
The chocolate thing is annoying though, and I would just keep reiterating that you can’t eat chocolate.
posted by jeoc at 7:21 AM on January 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
The chocolate thing is annoying though, and I would just keep reiterating that you can’t eat chocolate.
posted by jeoc at 7:21 AM on January 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Invite this friend out for a nice dinner and pay for it fully. Thank them again for the money, but re-insist one time—one more time—that you were doing it as a favor and did not expect or want money for doing it. Then let it go. Chances are something like this will happen again with them, but just let it go. Some people are like this about favors and feeling like they might be taking advantage of someone. This person very much appreciated the repairs you made, that's all.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:25 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by SoberHighland at 7:25 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
My free-for-friends philosophy is that "seriously, no charge, put that away. But if you insist on putting money into my hand I'm not going to physically fight you over it" because hey, fifty bucks is fifty bucks. If that doesn't sit well, immediately make a $50 donation to charity of your choice. And re-gift the chocolates as well, don't throw them out.
Later: "Hey, thanks for those chocolates, but I'm afraid it just reconfirmed my acid reflux etc means chocolates just aren't for me! If you're feeling snack-gifty, I am a big fan of X, Y, or Z though! Sometimes Z-sub-A, it's a runner-up; how do you rank them?"
Basically don't make a Thing about this sort of thing. Everyone has someone in their lives who sometimes doesn't listen; when not-listening results in getting snacks and money, that's about the best-case scenario for not-listening.
posted by Drastic at 7:26 AM on January 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
Later: "Hey, thanks for those chocolates, but I'm afraid it just reconfirmed my acid reflux etc means chocolates just aren't for me! If you're feeling snack-gifty, I am a big fan of X, Y, or Z though! Sometimes Z-sub-A, it's a runner-up; how do you rank them?"
Basically don't make a Thing about this sort of thing. Everyone has someone in their lives who sometimes doesn't listen; when not-listening results in getting snacks and money, that's about the best-case scenario for not-listening.
posted by Drastic at 7:26 AM on January 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
The chocolate thing would irritate me. I've been vegan for almost 20 years, and yet there are still family members and co-workers who serve me non-vegan foods or give them to me as gifts. All I can do is sigh (inwardly) and gently remind them again about my ethical aversion to exploiting animals.
posted by alex1965 at 7:28 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by alex1965 at 7:28 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
25 years ago, we moved into, and were accepted by, a tight-knit rural community. I did my best to pay $$$ to my neighbours for stuff [bales of hay, odd bits of labour]because I reckoned that at some time in the future, at a potentially inconvenient time, one or other of these open-handed neighbours would come for my first-born in payment. Literally this happened once when our neighbour across the river requested-and-required my visiting 20-something boy to come paint a day's worth of fencing. It can be difficult enough to get competent help at all at all, so I'm grateful to get it, but I don't expect, or like, it to be 'free'.
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think in this circumstance, the friend may have felt that she has no similar skills to offer other friends and might have been worried she might not have been able to adequately pay it forward and thus repay you. I would take the money and not stress about it.
posted by corb at 7:52 AM on January 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:52 AM on January 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
I admit I wouldn't know what to do with a "pay it forward" that was set as a formal "terms and conditions" demand and not a sort of ... vibe? Maybe this is just how you're expressing it here but if I were your friend I would think I had accidentally stumbled upon a real sore spot for you by asking in the first place.
Basically, you did this as a solid for a friend but in a way that suggests this is absolutely not actually a no strings, breezy favor: it's a big deal with terms and conditions that she should have negotiated around. That's not how casual friend favors typically work.
But I'm also guessing (maybe off base) that you have already had it up to here with this person because of the chocolate stuff and 1) that is why so many terms and conditions and 2) this is simply one more thing you think is thoughtless about her.
You could talk to her about it I suppose, but most likely the way to manage this is just to distance yourself from this person.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:10 AM on January 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Basically, you did this as a solid for a friend but in a way that suggests this is absolutely not actually a no strings, breezy favor: it's a big deal with terms and conditions that she should have negotiated around. That's not how casual friend favors typically work.
But I'm also guessing (maybe off base) that you have already had it up to here with this person because of the chocolate stuff and 1) that is why so many terms and conditions and 2) this is simply one more thing you think is thoughtless about her.
You could talk to her about it I suppose, but most likely the way to manage this is just to distance yourself from this person.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:10 AM on January 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
In your position I would manage this by keeping the $50 and giving away the chocolates to somebody who likes chocolates. I would choose not to interpret it as my friend having blatantly ignored my stated wishes, even though that's clearly what she's done.
Some people have just grown up in cultures and/or subcultures infested badly enough by users and freeloaders to make the pay-it-forward model of expanded reciprocity unworkable. Within such a culture, formal refusal of payment for favours sought is merely part of the expected politeness dance rather than a genuine request actually to be taken at face value.
By the standards of such a culture, any attempt on your part to return a payment once made would be experienced as a loss of face at least as distressing to your friend as your friend's apparent disregard for your own stated preferences is to you.
From where I sit, that worldview is all kinds of fucked up and I'm glad I didn't grow up in so transactional an environment. But I'm guessing that your friend probably did.
The flip side is that from inside such a transaction-dominated culture, this kind of encounter does not come with the same whiff of a downgrade from friend to contractor that I suspect is actually the root of your upset in this instance.
You fixed her jeans as a favour, and instead of the warm inner glow that comes from adding to the wider world's stock of generosity you've ended up with a grateful friend, $50 that you absolutely can use, and a box of chocolates that you can't. That's not so bad, as outcomes go. Flag it and move on.
posted by flabdablet at 8:12 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Some people have just grown up in cultures and/or subcultures infested badly enough by users and freeloaders to make the pay-it-forward model of expanded reciprocity unworkable. Within such a culture, formal refusal of payment for favours sought is merely part of the expected politeness dance rather than a genuine request actually to be taken at face value.
By the standards of such a culture, any attempt on your part to return a payment once made would be experienced as a loss of face at least as distressing to your friend as your friend's apparent disregard for your own stated preferences is to you.
From where I sit, that worldview is all kinds of fucked up and I'm glad I didn't grow up in so transactional an environment. But I'm guessing that your friend probably did.
The flip side is that from inside such a transaction-dominated culture, this kind of encounter does not come with the same whiff of a downgrade from friend to contractor that I suspect is actually the root of your upset in this instance.
You fixed her jeans as a favour, and instead of the warm inner glow that comes from adding to the wider world's stock of generosity you've ended up with a grateful friend, $50 that you absolutely can use, and a box of chocolates that you can't. That's not so bad, as outcomes go. Flag it and move on.
posted by flabdablet at 8:12 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Your friend is not great at listening; this would be annoying, but I'd move beyond it. You can give it to MeFi or any other organization that will something useful with it. Someone you know would enjoy the chocolates.
posted by theora55 at 8:21 AM on January 26, 2023
posted by theora55 at 8:21 AM on January 26, 2023
I am not a “pay it forward” person. If I asked someone if they could do something for me for a price, and they said they’d do it for free, but I should pay back by doing something for someone else, it would make me deeply uncomfortable- even though I’m also very much a person who would rather do a favor than accept money for it. To me “pay it forward” is a burden that I now owe a random person in the universe and have to deal with karmic judgement about. What if I do something nice for someone and then they pay me? Now where do I stand? Do I have to pay again? I’m joking, but there is some discomfort there. While I wouldn’t disregard someone’s preferences about repayment (and especially not giving them food they couldn’t eat!) I could see how someone who felt uncomfortable with an “obligation” that they couldn’t promise to repay - but who couldn’t let go of the idea that the effort required repayment - might decide to stick to her original plan as a way to handle that discomfort.
As others mentioned, the best move is to be the one paying it forward yourself by donating the money to a cause and the chocolates to whoever in your life would appreciate them. If you want it to stop happening in the future, and your friend is like me, I suspect the best/worst way to keep it from happening again is to make it even more uncomfortable - because I do think her discomfort is the problem here. I’d outright tell her thanks for the money and chocolates, you went right ahead and donated them all just like she intended you to do. Put her on the spot to let her know that anything she gives you will immediately be given away, and she won’t be credited with the intention of helping you anyway.
But honestly, I think next time instead of saying that someone can repay your generosity by paying it forward, I’d just say you’re doing it for free because you like doing it. That way there’s no sense of exchange obligation at all.
posted by Mchelly at 8:23 AM on January 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
As others mentioned, the best move is to be the one paying it forward yourself by donating the money to a cause and the chocolates to whoever in your life would appreciate them. If you want it to stop happening in the future, and your friend is like me, I suspect the best/worst way to keep it from happening again is to make it even more uncomfortable - because I do think her discomfort is the problem here. I’d outright tell her thanks for the money and chocolates, you went right ahead and donated them all just like she intended you to do. Put her on the spot to let her know that anything she gives you will immediately be given away, and she won’t be credited with the intention of helping you anyway.
But honestly, I think next time instead of saying that someone can repay your generosity by paying it forward, I’d just say you’re doing it for free because you like doing it. That way there’s no sense of exchange obligation at all.
posted by Mchelly at 8:23 AM on January 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh also - the best way that I've found to actually get to your desired outcome - people 'paying it forward' - is to kind of breezily announce that I like doing favors for friends for free because I think in the long run it makes the world better to have folks doing favors for each other! And then just kind of keep doing it. People seem to sort of start doing it themselves after a while if they see it modeled, I think, but they don't feel like they're being judged about when they're starting or how much they're doing it.
posted by corb at 8:35 AM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:35 AM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am not a “pay it forward” person. If I asked someone if they could do something for me for a price, and they said they’d do it for free, but I should pay back by doing something for someone else, it would make me deeply uncomfortable
I've been on both ends of "pay it forward" and I've never taken it as an obligation that needs to to be fulfilled immediately or even thought about. It's always been more like "some day you might find yourself in a similar position. Remember this moment and just do a kindness for someone if you get the chance."
And if they never get that chance, or they forget about it, or they don't want to do it, the Earth will continue to turn. It's all good.
posted by bondcliff at 8:44 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've been on both ends of "pay it forward" and I've never taken it as an obligation that needs to to be fulfilled immediately or even thought about. It's always been more like "some day you might find yourself in a similar position. Remember this moment and just do a kindness for someone if you get the chance."
And if they never get that chance, or they forget about it, or they don't want to do it, the Earth will continue to turn. It's all good.
posted by bondcliff at 8:44 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
the chocolate thing is annoying, but honestly? with everyone having some sort of food limitation; in a limitless variety of categories (ethical! allergy! religion! weight loss! dr's orders! &c &c) and sometimes those limits being the result of temporary and changing preferences, like "doing keto" or "trying to cut out dairy" or whatever -- I know I've been guilty of not remembering exactly what everyone has going on. So yeah, for you it's obvious that chocolate is inappropriate. For her, you're one of hundreds of people she knows, and she probably just has trouble keeping it all straight.
(Also, in the culture I grew up in, you bring a box of chocolates for visits and salutations. You just do. Nobody insists you open them; in fact, it's equally, or more, likely that the chocolates get regifted in the next chocolate-gifting occasion.)
I'm bewildered by folks here suggesting you go out of your way to make your friend uncomfortable to change her behavior. Jesus H.! Giving you money for labor you did isn't meant to be an insult. If you must take it as one, at least don't create more offense in the world by insulting her as well.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
(Also, in the culture I grew up in, you bring a box of chocolates for visits and salutations. You just do. Nobody insists you open them; in fact, it's equally, or more, likely that the chocolates get regifted in the next chocolate-gifting occasion.)
I'm bewildered by folks here suggesting you go out of your way to make your friend uncomfortable to change her behavior. Jesus H.! Giving you money for labor you did isn't meant to be an insult. If you must take it as one, at least don't create more offense in the world by insulting her as well.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Over the years, I've learned to be gracious.
Person offers *something* in return for a favor.
"Oh, no need. I'm doing this happily as your friend." or "Oh, you get the next round of beers." or something similar.
Friend insists.
"Ok, well, much appreciated. Unnecessary, but thank you."
Go on about your business.
After one or two refusals, and they keep insisting, you're just going to cause more damage than you're trying to prevent in some way, or save yourself for feeling guilty or some such.
Accept that them giving you this is their way of being, or feeling better, or culturally appropriate, or how they were brought up, or whatever.
You are being gracious by offering for free. They feel like they should compensate you, just *because*. So be gracious and take it and don't lord it over their heads or mention it.
Next time you're both out, pick up the tab. And tell them they can get it next time if they protest.
It's not about the money at the end of the day.
posted by rich at 8:53 AM on January 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Person offers *something* in return for a favor.
"Oh, no need. I'm doing this happily as your friend." or "Oh, you get the next round of beers." or something similar.
Friend insists.
"Ok, well, much appreciated. Unnecessary, but thank you."
Go on about your business.
After one or two refusals, and they keep insisting, you're just going to cause more damage than you're trying to prevent in some way, or save yourself for feeling guilty or some such.
Accept that them giving you this is their way of being, or feeling better, or culturally appropriate, or how they were brought up, or whatever.
You are being gracious by offering for free. They feel like they should compensate you, just *because*. So be gracious and take it and don't lord it over their heads or mention it.
Next time you're both out, pick up the tab. And tell them they can get it next time if they protest.
It's not about the money at the end of the day.
posted by rich at 8:53 AM on January 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think it would be much better and easier to take five minutes & venmo $50 to a charity or struggling friend than to try one more time to insist your friend make a promise to do some unspecified something for some unspecified someone at some unspecified future time if she wants a favor. if you don't want to receive payment, the next best thing is not to keep it. money's easy to get rid of.
if it offends you to take money for this labor from a friend (or from anyone) you certainly don't have to accept any future requests from them, knowing it'll probably go this way. and I don't think you did anything objectionable in trying to make the bargain you did try to make for a non-financial transaction. but it isn't feasible or practical in most cases. it's the kind of thing you can ask of someone who you know also refuses compensation in that way. but most nice people don't want to feel like 'takers' or users of their friends. if they don't have a complementary skill where they can trade favors back and forth with you, they are going to feel great anxiety if forbidden to make any tangible gesture of appreciation, and it is kind to let them.
but yeah, tell her again you can't and don't eat chocolate. that's a bad gesture.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:07 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
if it offends you to take money for this labor from a friend (or from anyone) you certainly don't have to accept any future requests from them, knowing it'll probably go this way. and I don't think you did anything objectionable in trying to make the bargain you did try to make for a non-financial transaction. but it isn't feasible or practical in most cases. it's the kind of thing you can ask of someone who you know also refuses compensation in that way. but most nice people don't want to feel like 'takers' or users of their friends. if they don't have a complementary skill where they can trade favors back and forth with you, they are going to feel great anxiety if forbidden to make any tangible gesture of appreciation, and it is kind to let them.
but yeah, tell her again you can't and don't eat chocolate. that's a bad gesture.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:07 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been on both ends of "pay it forward" and I've never taken it as an obligation that needs to to be fulfilled immediately or even thought about. It's always been more like "some day you might find yourself in a similar position. Remember this moment and just do a kindness for someone if you get the chance."
You’re totally right! And I never feel like the person is telling me I’m obligated or intentionally putting a burden on me. But it still feels that way to me inside, because I am bad at non-transactional receiving (I’m much happier giving). I like corb’s wording so much better.
posted by Mchelly at 9:17 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
You’re totally right! And I never feel like the person is telling me I’m obligated or intentionally putting a burden on me. But it still feels that way to me inside, because I am bad at non-transactional receiving (I’m much happier giving). I like corb’s wording so much better.
posted by Mchelly at 9:17 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a friend of mine advised me when I was in a similar situation - "honey, take the gelt." It's her money, she gets to decide what she wants to do with it - and if she wants to give it to you, even after you told her she didn't have to, so be it.
The chocolate is a separate issue - chalk that up to a brain fart on her part, and if she tries to give you more in person just thank her but remind her that "it looks good, but I can't eat it, thanks though!" For drop-offs like this, bring it into your workplace and leave it next to the coffeemaker and it will get eaten by someone.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:25 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
The chocolate is a separate issue - chalk that up to a brain fart on her part, and if she tries to give you more in person just thank her but remind her that "it looks good, but I can't eat it, thanks though!" For drop-offs like this, bring it into your workplace and leave it next to the coffeemaker and it will get eaten by someone.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:25 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Consider your friend may have low self esteem / anxiety which means they “have to” pay you otherwise they’ll feel bad / unworthy. Don’t take it personally.
In the spirit of Empress’ comment above, I offer the Polish proverb: “if they’re giving it to you, take it. If they try to hit you, run away.”
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:29 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the spirit of Empress’ comment above, I offer the Polish proverb: “if they’re giving it to you, take it. If they try to hit you, run away.”
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:29 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Keep or donate the money, but imo you don't need to tell your friend about it unless they ask (which would be wild, but people are wild!) If you'd said the "pay it forward" thing once, in person, I would interpret that as "hey I'm doing this for good vibes, don't worry about it", but if you also put it in writing I would assume that you in fact believed I'd accrued a massive karmic debt by accepting free pants-hemming and I would also give you money in a blind panic. Sooo. I see where your friend is coming from, since it sounds like you meant "pay it forward" in like, a really specific and binding way.
The chocolate thing is annoying, but as others have said, it's hard to keep track of everybody's food stuff. For a dinner party obviously I'll check in with folks, but for a gift dropped on your doorstep...eh. Bring them to work or give them to a neighbor.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 9:44 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The chocolate thing is annoying, but as others have said, it's hard to keep track of everybody's food stuff. For a dinner party obviously I'll check in with folks, but for a gift dropped on your doorstep...eh. Bring them to work or give them to a neighbor.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 9:44 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
In my social milieu this is just polite (and guess culture?). Polite to insist on not taking payment for a favor, and then polite to insist on payment by giving it in a way that the person can't refuse (eg dropping at their doorstep). Can you frame this as your friend trying to value your skills and labour, and not as disregarding your wishes?
Re the chocolate thing...it can be hard to remember/keep track of different friends' dietary restrictions.
Is there more about this relationship that is bothering you that is causing these examples to feel worse than they might otherwise?
posted by EarnestDeer at 9:45 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Re the chocolate thing...it can be hard to remember/keep track of different friends' dietary restrictions.
Is there more about this relationship that is bothering you that is causing these examples to feel worse than they might otherwise?
posted by EarnestDeer at 9:45 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have given away a lot of stuff via Freecycle and Buy Nothing. The rule of both groups is that everything is free, no money or swaps are ever allowed to change hands.
Despite this, an elderly man who was collecting a printer cartridge tried to give me money because he couldn't believe that free was free.
...some people are bad at accepting things for free.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:47 AM on January 26, 2023
Despite this, an elderly man who was collecting a printer cartridge tried to give me money because he couldn't believe that free was free.
...some people are bad at accepting things for free.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:47 AM on January 26, 2023
The chocolates are a little unthoughtful, but I honestly think you've both made a mistake in terms of boundaries here.
I am one of those people who believes skilled work should be paid, particularly if I am unable to offer a comparable barter - and for jeans tailoring/mending, that would have to be some serious skill-in-trade like building things or fixing cars/appliances. I've heard too many stories from knitting friends who get asked to whip out a sweater or whatever for free by friends and family without even offering to pay for materials much less time, and that's not okay.
Some people are uncomfortable with favors for legitimate reasons of past trauma or abuse. Some are uncomfortable with the exploitative nature of "favor" and other social obligation. Some people try to not live the version of capitalism that looks to always make a "deal" - again, it's exploitation. Trying to force a favor when someone is trying to keep an interaction fair and appropriately compensated is not the automatic virtue you're assuming it is.
Your friend came to you with a request and a boundary. You should have respected their boundary if you were going to accept the request; they should have withdrawn the request if you wouldn't honor the boundary, but you were the one who made the first offensive move, leaving them in an uncomfortable position. The only other option would be to re-negotiate the terms (usually to barter instead of exchange money, but maybe for a lower price if you could make a reasonable argument that the offered amount was too much), but once you've flat refused theirs it doesn't leave them many directions to go in. Now it's a situation where you both feel weird. You seem much more concerned with YOUR boundaries here than theirs, and about the gotcha that they shouldn't have handed you the things if they didn't like the deal. Is this person even a friend, that you like?
posted by Lyn Never at 10:06 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am one of those people who believes skilled work should be paid, particularly if I am unable to offer a comparable barter - and for jeans tailoring/mending, that would have to be some serious skill-in-trade like building things or fixing cars/appliances. I've heard too many stories from knitting friends who get asked to whip out a sweater or whatever for free by friends and family without even offering to pay for materials much less time, and that's not okay.
Some people are uncomfortable with favors for legitimate reasons of past trauma or abuse. Some are uncomfortable with the exploitative nature of "favor" and other social obligation. Some people try to not live the version of capitalism that looks to always make a "deal" - again, it's exploitation. Trying to force a favor when someone is trying to keep an interaction fair and appropriately compensated is not the automatic virtue you're assuming it is.
Your friend came to you with a request and a boundary. You should have respected their boundary if you were going to accept the request; they should have withdrawn the request if you wouldn't honor the boundary, but you were the one who made the first offensive move, leaving them in an uncomfortable position. The only other option would be to re-negotiate the terms (usually to barter instead of exchange money, but maybe for a lower price if you could make a reasonable argument that the offered amount was too much), but once you've flat refused theirs it doesn't leave them many directions to go in. Now it's a situation where you both feel weird. You seem much more concerned with YOUR boundaries here than theirs, and about the gotcha that they shouldn't have handed you the things if they didn't like the deal. Is this person even a friend, that you like?
posted by Lyn Never at 10:06 AM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I spent a long time as "younger friend" that my older friends would occasionally help out via cash, favors, covering dinner, etc, with no expectation of compensation or payback. Now that I'm the older friend, I find that I have two reactions when people offer me money for friendly assistance:
1) "I am a grown-up now, I have a job, you don't have to help me, just let me do the thing for you! It's no trouble! You would do the same for me!"
2) "It's my turn to do stuff for other people, now that I can, so just let me get on with it!"
However... I find that my older friends STILL think I'm young and unemployed, despite me a) being not THAT much younger than they are and b) probably making more money than they do now. So they still either want to be the favor-doers, or insist on paying me for the random stuff I do for them.
So... I just let it go. I've seen so many conversations between other people that go round and round with "no, you can't pay for this" "you must let me pay for this!" to the point where it gets awkward and weird; I've even been the person who has to break that up and say "Okay, great, thanks, you are so generous! Now about this other topic..."
You just have to be aware that at some point you have to cave, preferably some point before it gets uncomfortable. Just let them pay you/feed you/help you whatever and be gracious about it; it makes them feel good, or at least satisfies them in some way, and you can be satisfied that you've at least "paid them back" in that way.
posted by invincible summer at 10:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) "I am a grown-up now, I have a job, you don't have to help me, just let me do the thing for you! It's no trouble! You would do the same for me!"
2) "It's my turn to do stuff for other people, now that I can, so just let me get on with it!"
However... I find that my older friends STILL think I'm young and unemployed, despite me a) being not THAT much younger than they are and b) probably making more money than they do now. So they still either want to be the favor-doers, or insist on paying me for the random stuff I do for them.
So... I just let it go. I've seen so many conversations between other people that go round and round with "no, you can't pay for this" "you must let me pay for this!" to the point where it gets awkward and weird; I've even been the person who has to break that up and say "Okay, great, thanks, you are so generous! Now about this other topic..."
You just have to be aware that at some point you have to cave, preferably some point before it gets uncomfortable. Just let them pay you/feed you/help you whatever and be gracious about it; it makes them feel good, or at least satisfies them in some way, and you can be satisfied that you've at least "paid them back" in that way.
posted by invincible summer at 10:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would do the same as your friend, that is pay you, (minus the chocolate).
My reason why i do that is if i do not pay, i would immediately and never again be comfortable asking you to mend something again. In such situations i have learned to say exactly that: i might want you to do some more mending/sewing (or whatever) but if i am not allowed to pay i feel unable to do so.
Even if this is a good friend. One of my close friends has a restaurant. When she first opened, she would not let me pay, and had to tell her if i am not allowed to pay i feel so akward i cannot come anymore.
posted by 15L06 at 10:28 AM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
My reason why i do that is if i do not pay, i would immediately and never again be comfortable asking you to mend something again. In such situations i have learned to say exactly that: i might want you to do some more mending/sewing (or whatever) but if i am not allowed to pay i feel unable to do so.
Even if this is a good friend. One of my close friends has a restaurant. When she first opened, she would not let me pay, and had to tell her if i am not allowed to pay i feel so akward i cannot come anymore.
posted by 15L06 at 10:28 AM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
one more thing, and I genuinely do not mean this as any kind of attack, just a personal share:
I am a... significantly generous person. I give out a lot of different kinds of help, to all kinds of people. I do this in some cases because I have a specific relationship with the recipients of the help - usually that I care about them personally - and in some cases because it is just the right thing to do. In any case, I don't trumpet it around, because that is very tacky. The only person I discuss that sort of thing with is my husband.
Having no need of being taught generosity, I would infinitely annoyed if anyone - friend, acquaintance, or stranger - turned a commercial interaction into some sort of charity-giving with me as the recipient, and then started lecturing me about how I need to pay it forward.
I would not be annoyed at all if the person wanted to do it for free because their gift is to me personally, made out of affection.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:10 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am a... significantly generous person. I give out a lot of different kinds of help, to all kinds of people. I do this in some cases because I have a specific relationship with the recipients of the help - usually that I care about them personally - and in some cases because it is just the right thing to do. In any case, I don't trumpet it around, because that is very tacky. The only person I discuss that sort of thing with is my husband.
Having no need of being taught generosity, I would infinitely annoyed if anyone - friend, acquaintance, or stranger - turned a commercial interaction into some sort of charity-giving with me as the recipient, and then started lecturing me about how I need to pay it forward.
I would not be annoyed at all if the person wanted to do it for free because their gift is to me personally, made out of affection.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:10 AM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
My reason why i do that is if i do not pay, i would immediately and never again be comfortable asking you to mend something again.
This cuts two ways, though. If somebody asks me to exercise one of my skills for their benefit, and I agree to do it because they're a friend and I want to, and I tell them so and make it perfectly clear that payment is neither required nor expected, then their acceptance of that exercise as the gift that it is solidifies and deepens the friendship I feel for them.
If instead they insist on reducing such gifts to transactions by paying for them, my culturally ingrained response is to feel spurned and underappreciated and far less likely to want to do anything like that again. Having somebody misinterpret "sure, I'd be happy to" as a disguised form of "fuck you, pay me" is an insult both to my generosity and my honesty.
If I want to get paid for my work then I'm perfectly capable of saying so. Insisting on paying me for work that I've explicitly said I'd happily do as a free favour is an implicit denial of that capability, and is therefore demeaning, infantilizing and insulting.
So if somebody feels comfortable asking me for repeated favours because they paid for it last time, that comfort is based on a complete misunderstanding of what motivates me and is therefore totally unjustified.
As I said above, this is essentially a cultural thing. I think there's a divide between gift cultures and transactional cultures that's largely orthogonal to and at least as profound as that between ask cultures and guess cultures. And I think that when friends ask friends for favours, the most gracious, respectful and productive way to do that is in accordance with the cultural norms of the askee, not the asker.
That said, the most gracious way to deal with the aftermath of any cultural mismatch is to treat it as the tiny annoyance it really is in the grand scheme of things. When it comes right down to it a culturally insensitive friend is still a friend, and it's good to have friends.
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
This cuts two ways, though. If somebody asks me to exercise one of my skills for their benefit, and I agree to do it because they're a friend and I want to, and I tell them so and make it perfectly clear that payment is neither required nor expected, then their acceptance of that exercise as the gift that it is solidifies and deepens the friendship I feel for them.
If instead they insist on reducing such gifts to transactions by paying for them, my culturally ingrained response is to feel spurned and underappreciated and far less likely to want to do anything like that again. Having somebody misinterpret "sure, I'd be happy to" as a disguised form of "fuck you, pay me" is an insult both to my generosity and my honesty.
If I want to get paid for my work then I'm perfectly capable of saying so. Insisting on paying me for work that I've explicitly said I'd happily do as a free favour is an implicit denial of that capability, and is therefore demeaning, infantilizing and insulting.
So if somebody feels comfortable asking me for repeated favours because they paid for it last time, that comfort is based on a complete misunderstanding of what motivates me and is therefore totally unjustified.
As I said above, this is essentially a cultural thing. I think there's a divide between gift cultures and transactional cultures that's largely orthogonal to and at least as profound as that between ask cultures and guess cultures. And I think that when friends ask friends for favours, the most gracious, respectful and productive way to do that is in accordance with the cultural norms of the askee, not the asker.
That said, the most gracious way to deal with the aftermath of any cultural mismatch is to treat it as the tiny annoyance it really is in the grand scheme of things. When it comes right down to it a culturally insensitive friend is still a friend, and it's good to have friends.
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
What works for me is directing them to a specific charity or good cause that I support. "Seriously, I want to do this for free, but if you really feel like you need to pay for it, please take that money and donate it to Greater Boston Food Bank. Thanks!" Then they have that specific outlet to channel the money into and don't have to overthink anything, and they usually forward the email receipt to me as part of a thank-you message.
posted by cadge at 2:53 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cadge at 2:53 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would it help to think of the $50 as a thank-you gift, instead of a payment?
posted by bink at 3:34 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 3:34 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
She's a friend that you're willing to do a favour for so I'm going to assume she's basically a good person, repeated chocolate giving aside.
I would therefore give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she really really doesn't want to seem to be taking advantage of you; maybe she felt indebted in a way she couldn't repay; maybe through some other life experience she's found that nothing ever comes for "free". Maybe she upped the amount because she thought that you refused to accept it because it wasn't enough and it was easier for you to say "no charge" rather than haggle.
I kinda know where you're coming from - a friend once offered me money for staying at my place for a few days. I was almost insulted - you're my friend, not a lodger! But I knew that her family regularly did this, even with other family members so it was a upbringing/cultural thing. It wasn't coming from a place of viewing me as a hotelier now, it was an acknowledgement that it costs to house someone. So unless you have other indications to the contrary, I wouldn't assume that your friend has now reduced your friendship to a transactional relationship.
posted by pianissimo at 6:54 PM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would therefore give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she really really doesn't want to seem to be taking advantage of you; maybe she felt indebted in a way she couldn't repay; maybe through some other life experience she's found that nothing ever comes for "free". Maybe she upped the amount because she thought that you refused to accept it because it wasn't enough and it was easier for you to say "no charge" rather than haggle.
I kinda know where you're coming from - a friend once offered me money for staying at my place for a few days. I was almost insulted - you're my friend, not a lodger! But I knew that her family regularly did this, even with other family members so it was a upbringing/cultural thing. It wasn't coming from a place of viewing me as a hotelier now, it was an acknowledgement that it costs to house someone. So unless you have other indications to the contrary, I wouldn't assume that your friend has now reduced your friendship to a transactional relationship.
posted by pianissimo at 6:54 PM on January 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would 100% return both and make it clear that it was not okay for them to disregard what I explicitly told them. But for me, situations like these push my consent buttons and my "someone thinks they know better than me what is better for me" buttons, and I recognize that's not the case for everyone.
posted by virve at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by virve at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
By refusing to accept payment for service in the conventional manner, you have put a mental burden on your friend. How does she resolve this problem, in the mean time carrying around a PIF debt she now owes to the universe, when she would rather pay cash for services rendered?
She has got the right idea: pay cash, plus a little extra for the emotional load she has now put on you - what do you do with the money?
There is a reason money is used to pay for things. It helps us keep track of value, and is easy to carry around unlike the feeling of guilt that your friend fixed your jeans for you and would not accept payment.
Next time, tell your friend to go to a tailor.
posted by Erinaceus europaeus at 11:50 AM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
She has got the right idea: pay cash, plus a little extra for the emotional load she has now put on you - what do you do with the money?
There is a reason money is used to pay for things. It helps us keep track of value, and is easy to carry around unlike the feeling of guilt that your friend fixed your jeans for you and would not accept payment.
Next time, tell your friend to go to a tailor.
posted by Erinaceus europaeus at 11:50 AM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Take the $50. Donate it. Buy something with it. Put it in an envelope with your friend's name on it and save it for a future time when you will treat same friend to dinner or some such.
Open the box of chocolates. Admire the beauty of the box. Look at each chocolate. The swirl. The coconut dusting. The cluster. The different chocolate shades.The way each one is lovingly crafted and indicates thought and design and communication about flavor. Line all the chocolates up in a row. Position them in a circle. Marvel at the thing that is known as Chocolate -- expression worldwide for care, pleasure, kindness, gratitude. Then dump that thing in the garbage.
Etc. as suits your fancy.
You have a good friend.
posted by desert exile at 5:56 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Open the box of chocolates. Admire the beauty of the box. Look at each chocolate. The swirl. The coconut dusting. The cluster. The different chocolate shades.The way each one is lovingly crafted and indicates thought and design and communication about flavor. Line all the chocolates up in a row. Position them in a circle. Marvel at the thing that is known as Chocolate -- expression worldwide for care, pleasure, kindness, gratitude. Then dump that thing in the garbage.
Etc. as suits your fancy.
You have a good friend.
posted by desert exile at 5:56 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
There’s nothing in your question about chocolate. I’m confused.
posted by bendy at 9:26 PM on January 27, 2023
posted by bendy at 9:26 PM on January 27, 2023
I am definitely the type to pay for favours simply because that's how I was raised. Which isn't to say I don't DO favours for people, but if they've done me a solid and there's nothing I can do for them? Cash. My other favours and acts of kindness are entirely separated from this specific favour.
It's like I have a buck for acts of kindness - paying someone's bill if something goes wrong, the general stuff for strangers, finding who needs a thing and getting them that thing or helping them sort it out. Then there are favours for people who I am friendly with. I don't expect favours back, and grew up with a strongly practiced sense of "do for thems who can't" or "you today, me tomorrow", but also alongside that was "if you have the cash to make life easier for someone then do it". To the point I've left a $10 in people's cars. It's partly a drive to compensate them, but also about that specific relationship?
Like...I am already setting up an old laptop for donation. Stocked up the guidance counsellor with free uniform spares. A friend mending my jeans is a friend doing a valuable and important and complex labour for me. If I can't buy them an actual meal, or make them something, cash it is. It's cash as a fungible placeholder for the thing I would have otherwise done to free up time and energy for you to undertake the favour.
I would probably not go that far with someone who left a note like that for me. But I'd feel really uncomfortable with the interaction. It's similar to gifts I think, which I'm also deeply uncomfortable with.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:58 AM on January 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's like I have a buck for acts of kindness - paying someone's bill if something goes wrong, the general stuff for strangers, finding who needs a thing and getting them that thing or helping them sort it out. Then there are favours for people who I am friendly with. I don't expect favours back, and grew up with a strongly practiced sense of "do for thems who can't" or "you today, me tomorrow", but also alongside that was "if you have the cash to make life easier for someone then do it". To the point I've left a $10 in people's cars. It's partly a drive to compensate them, but also about that specific relationship?
Like...I am already setting up an old laptop for donation. Stocked up the guidance counsellor with free uniform spares. A friend mending my jeans is a friend doing a valuable and important and complex labour for me. If I can't buy them an actual meal, or make them something, cash it is. It's cash as a fungible placeholder for the thing I would have otherwise done to free up time and energy for you to undertake the favour.
I would probably not go that far with someone who left a note like that for me. But I'd feel really uncomfortable with the interaction. It's similar to gifts I think, which I'm also deeply uncomfortable with.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:58 AM on January 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
There’s nothing in your question about chocolate.
OP wrote: Also, I have extreme acid reflux and absolutely cannot eat chocolate, as it results in a lot of pain and discomfort. I have told friend this more than once in the past. Still, she left a box of chocolates along with the $50.
posted by 15L06 at 6:35 AM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
OP wrote: Also, I have extreme acid reflux and absolutely cannot eat chocolate, as it results in a lot of pain and discomfort. I have told friend this more than once in the past. Still, she left a box of chocolates along with the $50.
posted by 15L06 at 6:35 AM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
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It sounds like your friend needs to be reminded about the chocolate thing. A friend of mine can’t east it because of the caffeine and I’ll be honest that I forget a lot as it’s such a “default” item, similar to a bottle of wine.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:50 AM on January 26, 2023 [35 favorites]