when friends give you that itchy tshirt tag feeling..
December 12, 2022 7:29 PM Subscribe
My old friend and I see the world differently. Over the years, I’ve become more frustrated (and also more afraid I’m being overly judgmental of him.) How do you balance making space for change and growth in old friendships with just realizing you hold different values?
I’m in my early 30s, and I feel like I’m in the later phases of a longer term social realignment with some old friends, as is part of life! But I’m honestly not sure how to balance “we change but commitment to old friends matter” with “this is a problem” when it comes to my one friend C. I’ll compare him to my other friend Q from a similar time period.
My close college friend Q and I gchat every day, plan multiple visits each year, and are emotionally quite close even though my life and his look different. We are quite different in many ways - our identities, our hobbies, even our sense of humor doesn’t always align. But we care about each other and learn from each other and so we’ve taken good care of our friendship over the years (decades!) to focus on our common interests (music, cities, shared history) and as a result, this friendship hasn’t faded away and is a treasured part of my life.
With C, I feel much stormier and weirder about the differences. Our friendship is linked thru Q, and so the three of us see each other regularly and have gone on trips together, etc. I saw C a ton last year for wedding stuff (and I hate to say it but I was very aware that I spent nearly 2K participating in this stuff, money that’s hard for me, attending wedding events for a much much much wealthier friend. He never noticed or acknowledged it, which I get bc these were his moments to shine. But the feeling “um was it actually a good thing for ME to participate in all of this?” has stuck with me, however uncomfy/ugly, and led me to continue wondering “is this friendship working?”)
Stuff I find mismatching with C: he really dislikes anything he considers not normal/weird and strongly believes in ingroup belonging, whereas I love and celebrate weirdness and empathize with people on the outside broadly (this comes across as frequent comments like “people who put extended family first are weird” or whatever, and flat out lack of interest in things about my life that aren’t immediately recognizable to him); he identifies as a Strong Optimist which for him basically means bright siding scary possibilities in the world, eg “trans rights will work out bc this election went well, see, no worries!”, whereas I think engaging compassionately with people as they struggle and hurt is the route to a hard-earned hopefulness if any is to be found - like intellectualizing isn’t helpful if you’re sitting out the fight entirely (this is particularly frustrating to me, as a trans queer person. optimism in this vein strikes me as distinctly unkind and it’s weird to see someone my age go Monied Detached Democrat); I just don’t really hear him expressing empathy or care for others that often outside of a very specific group of friends. I know I’m giving a very one sided view of this, but hopefully it reveals some honest judgments on my part. This friend was kind to me during some rougher periods in my past and we’ve shared a very long playful kind of intellectual siblings relationship - talking ideas and art together. I think he’s a sweet person and quite capable of kindness, but very closed off and living his life in a way that feels, yeah, misaligned.
I talk about C with Q sometimes. Q gets it. He astutely sees the insecurities in C’s behaviors and is able to hold them compassionately (like oh yeah C is overcompensating for societal anxieties by needing to reassure himself by reassuring you.) I guess I find it disturbing that I can’t be as generous as Q about this, but also recognize, well, some people are not empathetic and some people can gradually start to identify with and protecting their own little bubble, that’s part of life.
Any guidance on how to make sense of this stormy friendship? Should I be more vocal about my frustrations in the moment? Have you reassessed long term friendships when these value misalignments show up? I should say we’ve gradually migrated to a much less frequent friend communication mode, so there’s not anything that I need to necessarily *do* immediately in the relationship. I just feel bad about it.
Thank you!!
I’m in my early 30s, and I feel like I’m in the later phases of a longer term social realignment with some old friends, as is part of life! But I’m honestly not sure how to balance “we change but commitment to old friends matter” with “this is a problem” when it comes to my one friend C. I’ll compare him to my other friend Q from a similar time period.
My close college friend Q and I gchat every day, plan multiple visits each year, and are emotionally quite close even though my life and his look different. We are quite different in many ways - our identities, our hobbies, even our sense of humor doesn’t always align. But we care about each other and learn from each other and so we’ve taken good care of our friendship over the years (decades!) to focus on our common interests (music, cities, shared history) and as a result, this friendship hasn’t faded away and is a treasured part of my life.
With C, I feel much stormier and weirder about the differences. Our friendship is linked thru Q, and so the three of us see each other regularly and have gone on trips together, etc. I saw C a ton last year for wedding stuff (and I hate to say it but I was very aware that I spent nearly 2K participating in this stuff, money that’s hard for me, attending wedding events for a much much much wealthier friend. He never noticed or acknowledged it, which I get bc these were his moments to shine. But the feeling “um was it actually a good thing for ME to participate in all of this?” has stuck with me, however uncomfy/ugly, and led me to continue wondering “is this friendship working?”)
Stuff I find mismatching with C: he really dislikes anything he considers not normal/weird and strongly believes in ingroup belonging, whereas I love and celebrate weirdness and empathize with people on the outside broadly (this comes across as frequent comments like “people who put extended family first are weird” or whatever, and flat out lack of interest in things about my life that aren’t immediately recognizable to him); he identifies as a Strong Optimist which for him basically means bright siding scary possibilities in the world, eg “trans rights will work out bc this election went well, see, no worries!”, whereas I think engaging compassionately with people as they struggle and hurt is the route to a hard-earned hopefulness if any is to be found - like intellectualizing isn’t helpful if you’re sitting out the fight entirely (this is particularly frustrating to me, as a trans queer person. optimism in this vein strikes me as distinctly unkind and it’s weird to see someone my age go Monied Detached Democrat); I just don’t really hear him expressing empathy or care for others that often outside of a very specific group of friends. I know I’m giving a very one sided view of this, but hopefully it reveals some honest judgments on my part. This friend was kind to me during some rougher periods in my past and we’ve shared a very long playful kind of intellectual siblings relationship - talking ideas and art together. I think he’s a sweet person and quite capable of kindness, but very closed off and living his life in a way that feels, yeah, misaligned.
I talk about C with Q sometimes. Q gets it. He astutely sees the insecurities in C’s behaviors and is able to hold them compassionately (like oh yeah C is overcompensating for societal anxieties by needing to reassure himself by reassuring you.) I guess I find it disturbing that I can’t be as generous as Q about this, but also recognize, well, some people are not empathetic and some people can gradually start to identify with and protecting their own little bubble, that’s part of life.
Any guidance on how to make sense of this stormy friendship? Should I be more vocal about my frustrations in the moment? Have you reassessed long term friendships when these value misalignments show up? I should say we’ve gradually migrated to a much less frequent friend communication mode, so there’s not anything that I need to necessarily *do* immediately in the relationship. I just feel bad about it.
Thank you!!
Best answer: Have you reassessed long term friendships when these value misalignments show up?
Yes. Friend of many many years. They too live in a bubble where the social things I care about (climate change, increasing fascism, feminism) have no interest for them. They are keen on sales strategies, optimising page views, writing their next ebook.
I don't see or talk to this friend much. BUT over our many years of friendship they have proven themselves when it counts as a caring considerate person in the ways that they can. Thus I have chosen to accept the ways that they can be a good friend to me and me to them, and have chosen not to judge them.
Simply put, I chose love. Can you do that?
posted by Thella at 7:53 PM on December 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yes. Friend of many many years. They too live in a bubble where the social things I care about (climate change, increasing fascism, feminism) have no interest for them. They are keen on sales strategies, optimising page views, writing their next ebook.
I don't see or talk to this friend much. BUT over our many years of friendship they have proven themselves when it counts as a caring considerate person in the ways that they can. Thus I have chosen to accept the ways that they can be a good friend to me and me to them, and have chosen not to judge them.
Simply put, I chose love. Can you do that?
posted by Thella at 7:53 PM on December 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
So you are trans and this "friend" is telling you not to worry about trans right because this election will mean everything sorts out just fine? Listen, from an internet stranger: you have my permission not to maintain this friendship anymore, or at least not to spend any effort that you aren't very excited about.
If you want to spend the effort, you could say something to C like, "Listen, this is my life on the line here. I could use a bit of empathy rather than false reassurance."
But also, what does not maintaining a relationship look like for you? Could you pull back and still be okay if all three of you met up?
posted by bluedaisy at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
If you want to spend the effort, you could say something to C like, "Listen, this is my life on the line here. I could use a bit of empathy rather than false reassurance."
But also, what does not maintaining a relationship look like for you? Could you pull back and still be okay if all three of you met up?
posted by bluedaisy at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'll be watching these replies, because I'm going through something similar with a (formerly) close friend at the moment.
Her worldview and mine, while they used to be more similar, have gradually become very different. I don't think her worldview is wrong, necessarily, if it makes her happy, but I find it frustrating and rigid. It makes it hard to have interesting conversations with her, because I know from the start that we're going to disagree on some fundamental issues and the conversation won't ever get past that.
Our individual disagreements in the moment aren't ever big enough to bring up, and she's not the kind of person who responds well to big-picture friendship talk, so I haven't really addressed it with her despite the fact that it's becoming increasingly irritating for me. For now my approach has just been to slowly pedal back the friendship and the frequency we talk, which has been working okay so far.
posted by mekily at 7:56 PM on December 12, 2022
Her worldview and mine, while they used to be more similar, have gradually become very different. I don't think her worldview is wrong, necessarily, if it makes her happy, but I find it frustrating and rigid. It makes it hard to have interesting conversations with her, because I know from the start that we're going to disagree on some fundamental issues and the conversation won't ever get past that.
Our individual disagreements in the moment aren't ever big enough to bring up, and she's not the kind of person who responds well to big-picture friendship talk, so I haven't really addressed it with her despite the fact that it's becoming increasingly irritating for me. For now my approach has just been to slowly pedal back the friendship and the frequency we talk, which has been working okay so far.
posted by mekily at 7:56 PM on December 12, 2022
Life is better filled with weirdos who love you where you are and for who you are. This level of toxic positivity in a scary time would make me dip so fast. You deserve more from a friend. You can downgrade to acquaintance and never do something that puts you out if your way for C. Don’t put more into something than you are getting out. Not like in a transactional sense? But in a “there are so many people who are awesome and amazing that you don’t currently have space for in your life” sense. Make some space.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:38 PM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 9:38 PM on December 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
First: yes this is a very common thing! People change over time, and the things that didn't bother you as a younger person strike you differently as you age. It happens.
So you have several options:
1. Be vulnerable. Spend some one on one time with C and tell him how you feel, and how some things have troubled you, about his view of the world. See if he's willing to talk through it with you instead of cut you off/refuse to engage/get angry. It could happen, and as another poster said, it would take you from Increasingly Fake Relationship to Real and Tested Relationship.
2. Take the passive way. Say nothing, act like it doesn't bother you unless it gets really bad, avoid him or use Q as a buffer when he's present.
3. Slow deliberate fade: you don't want to deal with him but you don't want to tell him off. Just keep cutting down on times you're together until they are at the minimum and keep all conversations light and shallow.
4. Nuclear: cut off C, with or without an explanation of why you just can't be his friend anymore. You don't sound like you're there yet/he's done enough to anger you. Downside is that this will definitely put Q in the middle.
None of these are inherently better than others. Not all old friends are worth the heart to heart. But some are. Not all ex-friends deserve to be told off. But some do. Only you can know where this relationship falls for you.
I guess the only other advice is that be proud of yourself for caring and taking your relationships seriously. Too many people just shrug and go passive/slow fade without really thinking through what their friendships mean to them, because friendships are not valued well in our society. But they're important, and losing one is worth grieving for, when that happens.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
So you have several options:
1. Be vulnerable. Spend some one on one time with C and tell him how you feel, and how some things have troubled you, about his view of the world. See if he's willing to talk through it with you instead of cut you off/refuse to engage/get angry. It could happen, and as another poster said, it would take you from Increasingly Fake Relationship to Real and Tested Relationship.
2. Take the passive way. Say nothing, act like it doesn't bother you unless it gets really bad, avoid him or use Q as a buffer when he's present.
3. Slow deliberate fade: you don't want to deal with him but you don't want to tell him off. Just keep cutting down on times you're together until they are at the minimum and keep all conversations light and shallow.
4. Nuclear: cut off C, with or without an explanation of why you just can't be his friend anymore. You don't sound like you're there yet/he's done enough to anger you. Downside is that this will definitely put Q in the middle.
None of these are inherently better than others. Not all old friends are worth the heart to heart. But some are. Not all ex-friends deserve to be told off. But some do. Only you can know where this relationship falls for you.
I guess the only other advice is that be proud of yourself for caring and taking your relationships seriously. Too many people just shrug and go passive/slow fade without really thinking through what their friendships mean to them, because friendships are not valued well in our society. But they're important, and losing one is worth grieving for, when that happens.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 PM on December 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it's reasonable to push back against C and explicitly tell him what you think / need from him at the moment. That being said, based on the information you've put here, it doesn't seem super likely that your push back would result in the needed changes. C does not seem to be able to walk in someone else's shoes and see things from a different perspective.
Consider that friendships in adulthood often ebb and flow. So even if you decide to do a slow fade with this friendship now, it doesn't mean that you have written off this person forever.
posted by oceano at 1:31 AM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Consider that friendships in adulthood often ebb and flow. So even if you decide to do a slow fade with this friendship now, it doesn't mean that you have written off this person forever.
posted by oceano at 1:31 AM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
It very much depends on what role you want C to play in your life. There is no reason why they can't be more an acquaintance than a close friend. If they show up for you when you need them later great, you can re-evaluate if you want to try to get 'closer' again. If not, acquaintance means you can still be comfortable spending time together, especially when it is both Q and C, without expecting C to meet needs for closer connection that it doesn't sound they can meet atm.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:40 AM on December 13, 2022
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:40 AM on December 13, 2022
It seems like you've identified an apparent divergence in values. There is a task ahead of you, and a decision before the task; this is an iterative process that will continue forever.
Task: acknsowledge this apparent divergence to this friend, so you can see if there's a deeper exploration of the situation that would be helpful to understand how to keep your friendship alive (i.e. maybe the appearance of this apparent divergence is a response to the differences in your life trajectories, and the other person is responding to uncertainty or specific life events in a way that suits them best at, perhaps, the expense of relationships).
Decision: are you interested enough in this person to keep the friendship alive, to do the work of the task above?
Not to treat this like an older/wiser diorama, but I had to let go of a very good friend for the first time in my life when i was about your age. My life and her life diverged, and after a few years I didn't think we could keep the pilot light lit. I went from being a party boy to a dad, very quickly. I resented her freedom, initially, and she resented my self-imposed restraint. It didn't take long for each of us to adapt to this new set of feelings and continue growing and changing in line with them. So, one day, when a conflict arose, I let the conflict sit there. I didn't take any steps to respond to it. I/we just stopped contacting one another.
I wass very sad about this for a long time. It's a decade or so later, thoguh, and I see this transition in a broader context. I've also experienced frienships returning that I thought had lost their pilot light. Maybe this one will, too, one day. And so it seems that I'm always asking myself, am I up to the task? And it's ok to decide either way.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:38 AM on December 13, 2022
Task: acknsowledge this apparent divergence to this friend, so you can see if there's a deeper exploration of the situation that would be helpful to understand how to keep your friendship alive (i.e. maybe the appearance of this apparent divergence is a response to the differences in your life trajectories, and the other person is responding to uncertainty or specific life events in a way that suits them best at, perhaps, the expense of relationships).
Decision: are you interested enough in this person to keep the friendship alive, to do the work of the task above?
Not to treat this like an older/wiser diorama, but I had to let go of a very good friend for the first time in my life when i was about your age. My life and her life diverged, and after a few years I didn't think we could keep the pilot light lit. I went from being a party boy to a dad, very quickly. I resented her freedom, initially, and she resented my self-imposed restraint. It didn't take long for each of us to adapt to this new set of feelings and continue growing and changing in line with them. So, one day, when a conflict arose, I let the conflict sit there. I didn't take any steps to respond to it. I/we just stopped contacting one another.
I wass very sad about this for a long time. It's a decade or so later, thoguh, and I see this transition in a broader context. I've also experienced frienships returning that I thought had lost their pilot light. Maybe this one will, too, one day. And so it seems that I'm always asking myself, am I up to the task? And it's ok to decide either way.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:38 AM on December 13, 2022
Best answer: What strikes me most about your question is that you label this friendship as "stormy" but it sounds like the storm refers entirely to bottled up feelings you have - about the cost of attending C's wedding, about things he says that bother you. Do you generally struggle to voice your needs in friendships, or is there something about C that makes you feel like you can't voice your needs with him?
People are free to end friendships for all sorts of reasons (and do all the time), but in all of the examples you've given I find myself wondering, "Ok, what happens if you push back?" For the wedding, why did you need to spend almost 2k??? Did C have a destination wedding or something? Did you ever bring up to him the fact he was expecting his friends to help fund a fancy wedding that not all of them could afford? For the claim “trans rights will work out bc this election went well, see, no worries!” what happens if you say "Hey C, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well, but actually statements like that - which are the optimistic to the point of being delusional - are really not comforting to me. Do you not know about everything happening at the state level?"
The statement “people who put extended family first are weird” seems a bit different - I'd interpret that to really mean "I don't understand people who put extended family first because I don't put extended family first." I might push back on that by pointing out some of the advantages of having a strong social safety net, especially in a country that lets a lot of people slip through the cracks. I might then get him to consider how his wealth may prevent him from needing to rely on extended family and vice versa.
In short, it sounds like C is fairly self-absorbed. In my experience, some self-absorbed people can be coaxed to care/learn about things outside their bubble if someone in their bubble encourages them to do so (i.e. you). Personally, I find people like this to be manageable in small doses, as long as they are open to being pushed to consider other perspectives. It sounds like you've already done a slow fade with C in terms of 1-on-1 interaction, but next time you're together on a trip with him and Q, challenge him when he says close minded things - this can be done with kindness.
posted by coffeecat at 7:36 AM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
People are free to end friendships for all sorts of reasons (and do all the time), but in all of the examples you've given I find myself wondering, "Ok, what happens if you push back?" For the wedding, why did you need to spend almost 2k??? Did C have a destination wedding or something? Did you ever bring up to him the fact he was expecting his friends to help fund a fancy wedding that not all of them could afford? For the claim “trans rights will work out bc this election went well, see, no worries!” what happens if you say "Hey C, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well, but actually statements like that - which are the optimistic to the point of being delusional - are really not comforting to me. Do you not know about everything happening at the state level?"
The statement “people who put extended family first are weird” seems a bit different - I'd interpret that to really mean "I don't understand people who put extended family first because I don't put extended family first." I might push back on that by pointing out some of the advantages of having a strong social safety net, especially in a country that lets a lot of people slip through the cracks. I might then get him to consider how his wealth may prevent him from needing to rely on extended family and vice versa.
In short, it sounds like C is fairly self-absorbed. In my experience, some self-absorbed people can be coaxed to care/learn about things outside their bubble if someone in their bubble encourages them to do so (i.e. you). Personally, I find people like this to be manageable in small doses, as long as they are open to being pushed to consider other perspectives. It sounds like you've already done a slow fade with C in terms of 1-on-1 interaction, but next time you're together on a trip with him and Q, challenge him when he says close minded things - this can be done with kindness.
posted by coffeecat at 7:36 AM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think any of us can tell you if the effort you might need to make is worth the return on (potentially improved) friendship here, but it IS okay and appropriate to ask that question periodically with anybody in your life.
I have seen the sort of gentle cracking of this shell by responding - organically, when it comes up - with a call to bring more compassion to his consideration. Encouragement, though: less "how dare" and more "but what if". And maybe sometimes a "but how is that hurting you?" challenge to blanket statements like "people who put extended family first are weird" (though I can maybe see where that's coming from given how many people do self-harm by prioritizing extended family over their own needs, or give the voices of family abusers more weight than friends and other people in one's life by choice). You can also deploy the "how so?" just to get him to say more words, for example maybe he agrees with my parenthetical above but is failing to think about other healthier large family networks.
But you're not obligated to do this work, and you can just choose to fade.
Whichever route you go, I don't think it's ever productive to try to challenge someone on something like the wedding festivities. You made your own choices there, even if you felt obligated; there's nothing he can do about it now. When planning a wedding, at some point you have to just let go and let people decide to attend or not and figure it out for themselves.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:33 AM on December 13, 2022
I have seen the sort of gentle cracking of this shell by responding - organically, when it comes up - with a call to bring more compassion to his consideration. Encouragement, though: less "how dare" and more "but what if". And maybe sometimes a "but how is that hurting you?" challenge to blanket statements like "people who put extended family first are weird" (though I can maybe see where that's coming from given how many people do self-harm by prioritizing extended family over their own needs, or give the voices of family abusers more weight than friends and other people in one's life by choice). You can also deploy the "how so?" just to get him to say more words, for example maybe he agrees with my parenthetical above but is failing to think about other healthier large family networks.
But you're not obligated to do this work, and you can just choose to fade.
Whichever route you go, I don't think it's ever productive to try to challenge someone on something like the wedding festivities. You made your own choices there, even if you felt obligated; there's nothing he can do about it now. When planning a wedding, at some point you have to just let go and let people decide to attend or not and figure it out for themselves.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:33 AM on December 13, 2022
Best answer: The funny thing is, even though I agree with most people here that C sounds a bit icky, that impression was only a side note for me in your post whose thundering major melody is (imo) your difficulty with being honest with yourself and with others about how you really feel about a given thing.
C is being perfectly candid about who they are and what they think in everything they do and say. Call it "the privilege of the asshole": I'm not saying C is a good guy. I'm saying: C is not playing games with you. You, on the other hand, ARE playing games with C. You are trying to please them, avoid confrontation, be nice, etc. and in doing all of this, you have sidestepped a pretty important thing: integrity. This doesn't make you a bad person! Again, you are not the bad guy here. What I mean is, you're making a very common mistake made by people with low self esteem, which is, you erase yourself and your own needs but then you resent other people for "making" you erase yourself and your own needs.
> I spent nearly 2K participating in [C's wedding], money that’s hard for me, attending wedding events for a much much much wealthier friend. He never noticed or acknowledged it ... [and it] led me to [wonder] “is this friendship working?”
See what I mean?
>Stuff I find mismatching with C:
Have you ever told C that you have this long laundry list of mismatches with him? I know that you've made it clear you disagree with him when each of these topics come up for discussion. But does he have any idea that you've been analyzing your disagreements on a meta level, on a moral level, on a friendship-match level, etc.? I'm guessing no. Instead you've been talking about all these things - the fact that you have amassed a laundry list, the fact that you are judging C's moral values, the fact that you're casting C as a certain type of person based on all this, the fact that you've got all these stored up resentments against C - with Q, behind C's back.
Do you see what I mean by "sidestepping integrity"? Friends don't treat friends like this.
> I guess I find it disturbing that I can’t be as generous as Q about this, but also recognize, well, some people are not empathetic and some people can gradually start to identify with and protecting their own little bubble, that’s part of life.
If you REALLY want to be compassionate with C - and I don't mean this in a judgmental way at all, I mean it genuinely, as a choice that you may or may not choose to make with no moral judgments attached on either choice - if you really want to become compassionate and generous towards C, you have to start with:
Step 1: being honest with yourself: admit to yourself that you are HELLA PISSED OFF WITH C. Admit, also, that you have been dealing with your anger in a super passive-aggressive way: by denying and internalizing all that anger and resentment, beating yourself up about it, financially punishing yourself for it, and then venting feelings by talking about C behind C's back with your mutual friend. (Like, you could have chosen to work out your feelings with someone who doesn't know C, yes? But you chose to talk to Q.)
Step 2: Then you need to be honest with C. Tell C how much you resent him and how angry you are with him for saying those things in spite of being your friend, in spite of professing to care about you. Tell C how much he hurt you. Resist the urge to soften your message. Resist the urge to rush in to rescue C from his own bad feelings. Resist the urge to fawn over C to make sure he doesn't get angry with you. Perhaps it's best if you write an email, but only if you can manage to keep it very short and to the point. Overexplaining is often a defensive technique designed to help you manage other people's feelings for them.
Step 3: Let the chips fall where they may. It may be that C gets angry with you and writes a very rude response back. You will survive. It's not the end of the world. It may be that you and C are no longer friends, at C's request. You will survive this too, and it's better to honestly end your friendship than to continue it under false pretenses as you are doing now. It may be that C writes a reply that argues back, and maybe you decide to continue the dialogue. Maybe that leads to one of the above two outcomes... or maybe it leads to you both genuinely hashing things out. WHATEVER HAPPENS, HAPPENS. You need to stop trying to control the outcome. Just focus on being honest and true to yourself and speak the truth to this person whom you are calling a friend. Friends are owed the truth.
Step 4: Like magic, you will find that you have compassion for C. I guaran-fucking-tee it. How do I know? Because you don't come across as a compulsively grudge-bearing person. You're not storing up grudges because you love being a dramatic victim - you're storing up grudges because you think it would end the world if you were honest. Therefore it stands to reason that once you ARE honest, your ability to be compassionate becomes unblocked. Even if the absolute worst ends up happening... like, if C sends you the rudest possible response where he is mean and bigoted and truly ugly towards you, and so in response you continue to be honest with him and end up having to say, "That was ugly and bigoted and I can no longer be your friend" and then you block him? Even if this worst case scenario is what ends up happening, you'll find that because you've spoken your truth to C, because you held nothing back, because you have nothing on your chest anymore, that frees you up to think, "Wow C is being such a bigot, so very rude! Look at all that anger he has inside him. What a pity that he turned out that way. I wish he had had the ability to make better choices. SMH." In other words, you'll be able to think of his behavior and his words solely in terms of *him*, not in relation to how unfair he was *to you*. When you've gotten the truth off your chest, YOU will feel resolved on the inside, and you won't have this roiled up feeling of having been hard done by. (All of which, if you notice, is in stark contrast to being all, "How could he say that to me!!! How dare he be so hurtful! And I've worked so hard to be nice to him, I've sacrificed so much for him... and I *know* he's done nice things for me too, but gah, that was really rude right? Right, Q???")
tl;dr: Honesty is what will help you have a compassionate response towards C. Having gotten the truth off your chest is what will help you make room for C's point of view inside your own heart. You cannot make room for compassion towards C when you haven't made room for yourself!
(BTW, even if you decide not to try for compassion with C, please do at least be honest with yourself and allow yourself to acknowledge the huge anger you feel towards C. YOU deserve compassion from yourself, and compassion for yourself also begins with honesty.)
posted by MiraK at 10:50 AM on December 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
C is being perfectly candid about who they are and what they think in everything they do and say. Call it "the privilege of the asshole": I'm not saying C is a good guy. I'm saying: C is not playing games with you. You, on the other hand, ARE playing games with C. You are trying to please them, avoid confrontation, be nice, etc. and in doing all of this, you have sidestepped a pretty important thing: integrity. This doesn't make you a bad person! Again, you are not the bad guy here. What I mean is, you're making a very common mistake made by people with low self esteem, which is, you erase yourself and your own needs but then you resent other people for "making" you erase yourself and your own needs.
> I spent nearly 2K participating in [C's wedding], money that’s hard for me, attending wedding events for a much much much wealthier friend. He never noticed or acknowledged it ... [and it] led me to [wonder] “is this friendship working?”
See what I mean?
>Stuff I find mismatching with C:
Have you ever told C that you have this long laundry list of mismatches with him? I know that you've made it clear you disagree with him when each of these topics come up for discussion. But does he have any idea that you've been analyzing your disagreements on a meta level, on a moral level, on a friendship-match level, etc.? I'm guessing no. Instead you've been talking about all these things - the fact that you have amassed a laundry list, the fact that you are judging C's moral values, the fact that you're casting C as a certain type of person based on all this, the fact that you've got all these stored up resentments against C - with Q, behind C's back.
Do you see what I mean by "sidestepping integrity"? Friends don't treat friends like this.
> I guess I find it disturbing that I can’t be as generous as Q about this, but also recognize, well, some people are not empathetic and some people can gradually start to identify with and protecting their own little bubble, that’s part of life.
If you REALLY want to be compassionate with C - and I don't mean this in a judgmental way at all, I mean it genuinely, as a choice that you may or may not choose to make with no moral judgments attached on either choice - if you really want to become compassionate and generous towards C, you have to start with:
Step 1: being honest with yourself: admit to yourself that you are HELLA PISSED OFF WITH C. Admit, also, that you have been dealing with your anger in a super passive-aggressive way: by denying and internalizing all that anger and resentment, beating yourself up about it, financially punishing yourself for it, and then venting feelings by talking about C behind C's back with your mutual friend. (Like, you could have chosen to work out your feelings with someone who doesn't know C, yes? But you chose to talk to Q.)
Step 2: Then you need to be honest with C. Tell C how much you resent him and how angry you are with him for saying those things in spite of being your friend, in spite of professing to care about you. Tell C how much he hurt you. Resist the urge to soften your message. Resist the urge to rush in to rescue C from his own bad feelings. Resist the urge to fawn over C to make sure he doesn't get angry with you. Perhaps it's best if you write an email, but only if you can manage to keep it very short and to the point. Overexplaining is often a defensive technique designed to help you manage other people's feelings for them.
Step 3: Let the chips fall where they may. It may be that C gets angry with you and writes a very rude response back. You will survive. It's not the end of the world. It may be that you and C are no longer friends, at C's request. You will survive this too, and it's better to honestly end your friendship than to continue it under false pretenses as you are doing now. It may be that C writes a reply that argues back, and maybe you decide to continue the dialogue. Maybe that leads to one of the above two outcomes... or maybe it leads to you both genuinely hashing things out. WHATEVER HAPPENS, HAPPENS. You need to stop trying to control the outcome. Just focus on being honest and true to yourself and speak the truth to this person whom you are calling a friend. Friends are owed the truth.
Step 4: Like magic, you will find that you have compassion for C. I guaran-fucking-tee it. How do I know? Because you don't come across as a compulsively grudge-bearing person. You're not storing up grudges because you love being a dramatic victim - you're storing up grudges because you think it would end the world if you were honest. Therefore it stands to reason that once you ARE honest, your ability to be compassionate becomes unblocked. Even if the absolute worst ends up happening... like, if C sends you the rudest possible response where he is mean and bigoted and truly ugly towards you, and so in response you continue to be honest with him and end up having to say, "That was ugly and bigoted and I can no longer be your friend" and then you block him? Even if this worst case scenario is what ends up happening, you'll find that because you've spoken your truth to C, because you held nothing back, because you have nothing on your chest anymore, that frees you up to think, "Wow C is being such a bigot, so very rude! Look at all that anger he has inside him. What a pity that he turned out that way. I wish he had had the ability to make better choices. SMH." In other words, you'll be able to think of his behavior and his words solely in terms of *him*, not in relation to how unfair he was *to you*. When you've gotten the truth off your chest, YOU will feel resolved on the inside, and you won't have this roiled up feeling of having been hard done by. (All of which, if you notice, is in stark contrast to being all, "How could he say that to me!!! How dare he be so hurtful! And I've worked so hard to be nice to him, I've sacrificed so much for him... and I *know* he's done nice things for me too, but gah, that was really rude right? Right, Q???")
tl;dr: Honesty is what will help you have a compassionate response towards C. Having gotten the truth off your chest is what will help you make room for C's point of view inside your own heart. You cannot make room for compassion towards C when you haven't made room for yourself!
(BTW, even if you decide not to try for compassion with C, please do at least be honest with yourself and allow yourself to acknowledge the huge anger you feel towards C. YOU deserve compassion from yourself, and compassion for yourself also begins with honesty.)
posted by MiraK at 10:50 AM on December 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
(Quick clarification. When I say "friends are owed the truth" I mean "friends are owed the truth about your strong feelings/grudges/resentments/anger pertaining to the friendship". Just in case it's not clear from the context!)
posted by MiraK at 11:02 AM on December 13, 2022
posted by MiraK at 11:02 AM on December 13, 2022
Response by poster: thank you thank you everyone. you helped me see this dynamic from a new perspective (SEVERAL new perspectives). one of my favorite parts of Ask MeFi is getting to experience so many people make sense of a situation with care and imagination.
@MiraK, others noted this too, but you are exactly right - this is primarily a problem with me not being real and showing up in this friendship. I've actually focused on bringing up negative/potentially tricky feelings in several friendships over the years, and I am MUCH more capable of saying the difficult things, and even taking friendships to fights and tricky spots. stuffing-self-down is a pattern I've been unlearning. when it comes to C, I've let this friendship coast a bit and letting my passive aggressive avoiding-own-emotions side rule. (god also i want to say, you noting I came to Q about this and not someone else was a "WHOA" moment, oofta.)
I decided to write an email! i sent said email! I basically said hey, there are a few things that have lingered with me about the last time we hung out, here's how they're hard for me. I value you and want to be real with you. talk about it when we hang out next? and I really like what others said that, by being real, you give the person the opportunity to respond as they will, and don't try to protect yourselves/them from going through that. (unfortunately that old pattern is exactly "if I contort myself just right, I can be a version of myself that doesn't cause harm to others" - I don't say that self-pityingly, just factually. this is a good example where that MO sucks and is also not fair to my friend, who very much MAY be able to rise to the occasion!)
to the others that interpreted my friend may also just have a harmful worldview that may be worth avoiding, I think that's all on point ish, with the caveat that I truly think this friend will be concerned and mortified by the reactions, and may simply just be missing the information/context that I'm having these types of reactions (I think outside of my own unskillful passive aggression, this is a broader issue for him and comes in part from unexamined/in denial possible neurodivergence - and so I think it's extra important, if I'm going to be kind to my friend, that I communicate this information as directly and honestly as possible). anyways, this is all to say, I think there's plenty of reasons to think other possibilities/nuances exist than "asshole is asshole."
i could say more, but, yeah. thank you for encouraging me to just Say The Thing and also to recognize that sometimes friendship prioritizes and relevance change over time. not always a clear instruction manual for this kind of thing!!! <3
posted by Sock Meets Body at 11:15 AM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
@MiraK, others noted this too, but you are exactly right - this is primarily a problem with me not being real and showing up in this friendship. I've actually focused on bringing up negative/potentially tricky feelings in several friendships over the years, and I am MUCH more capable of saying the difficult things, and even taking friendships to fights and tricky spots. stuffing-self-down is a pattern I've been unlearning. when it comes to C, I've let this friendship coast a bit and letting my passive aggressive avoiding-own-emotions side rule. (god also i want to say, you noting I came to Q about this and not someone else was a "WHOA" moment, oofta.)
I decided to write an email! i sent said email! I basically said hey, there are a few things that have lingered with me about the last time we hung out, here's how they're hard for me. I value you and want to be real with you. talk about it when we hang out next? and I really like what others said that, by being real, you give the person the opportunity to respond as they will, and don't try to protect yourselves/them from going through that. (unfortunately that old pattern is exactly "if I contort myself just right, I can be a version of myself that doesn't cause harm to others" - I don't say that self-pityingly, just factually. this is a good example where that MO sucks and is also not fair to my friend, who very much MAY be able to rise to the occasion!)
to the others that interpreted my friend may also just have a harmful worldview that may be worth avoiding, I think that's all on point ish, with the caveat that I truly think this friend will be concerned and mortified by the reactions, and may simply just be missing the information/context that I'm having these types of reactions (I think outside of my own unskillful passive aggression, this is a broader issue for him and comes in part from unexamined/in denial possible neurodivergence - and so I think it's extra important, if I'm going to be kind to my friend, that I communicate this information as directly and honestly as possible). anyways, this is all to say, I think there's plenty of reasons to think other possibilities/nuances exist than "asshole is asshole."
i could say more, but, yeah. thank you for encouraging me to just Say The Thing and also to recognize that sometimes friendship prioritizes and relevance change over time. not always a clear instruction manual for this kind of thing!!! <3
posted by Sock Meets Body at 11:15 AM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: This is such a great update, Sock Meets Body. I want to say that I am sometimes the friend who is totally clueless, and I would really appreciate my people-pleasing friends letting me know when I have totally missed what seem to them like totally obvious clues about my behavior that is hurting them. Good luck!
posted by bluedaisy at 12:30 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by bluedaisy at 12:30 PM on December 13, 2022
I talk about C with Q sometimes.
please don't do this. you really have to stop it.
I understand that since these are mutual friends, you may have to be transparent with Q about the fact that you are deciding to be not so close with C or it'll be awkward. so ok, you may have to tell him that you don't like C much anymore and here is why. once. but you did not have to, you don't have to, you will not have to regularly gossip about him and talk him down behind his back to see if you can get Q to ditch him too.
I am pro-gossip, as a rule. it's fun and it's harmless, except in situations like this one. loyalty does not require you to stay friends with C just because you used to like him. but loyalty does require you not to take someone who actually does like C and poke poke poke away at it until they like him a little bit less.
if for no other reason, don't do this because it will make Q feel shit about himself sooner or later. he is sympathetic enough to see your side of things, and he is going to have a delayed reaction when he realizes that he was going along with saying nasty things about his friend just to be sympathetic to his other friend. it's ok to be a little mean in private about a mutual friend when he is solidly and sincerely the object of your mutual affection. maybe. sometimes. gossip about his "insecurities" and whatnot. but if you feel yourself firmly on your way out of the friendship, it is not ok for you to be mean like that anymore.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
please don't do this. you really have to stop it.
I understand that since these are mutual friends, you may have to be transparent with Q about the fact that you are deciding to be not so close with C or it'll be awkward. so ok, you may have to tell him that you don't like C much anymore and here is why. once. but you did not have to, you don't have to, you will not have to regularly gossip about him and talk him down behind his back to see if you can get Q to ditch him too.
I am pro-gossip, as a rule. it's fun and it's harmless, except in situations like this one. loyalty does not require you to stay friends with C just because you used to like him. but loyalty does require you not to take someone who actually does like C and poke poke poke away at it until they like him a little bit less.
if for no other reason, don't do this because it will make Q feel shit about himself sooner or later. he is sympathetic enough to see your side of things, and he is going to have a delayed reaction when he realizes that he was going along with saying nasty things about his friend just to be sympathetic to his other friend. it's ok to be a little mean in private about a mutual friend when he is solidly and sincerely the object of your mutual affection. maybe. sometimes. gossip about his "insecurities" and whatnot. but if you feel yourself firmly on your way out of the friendship, it is not ok for you to be mean like that anymore.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I really look forward to your next follow up! I hope thing’s go well now that you have sent the email. I love for you that you took that step!
posted by Bottlecap at 10:15 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by Bottlecap at 10:15 PM on December 13, 2022
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But you get to decide if you want to pursue that, or not. You'd be the one putting yourself out there, and I get a vibe from your question that you're unsure if it's emotionally safe to do that with C. It's ok to decide that it's not, and that you'll just coast along as things are now, or that you want to pull back even more than you have. You can be compassionate but boundaried. You don't have to be the same level of intimate with everyone, and you get to decide who's trusted enough to see various parts of you.
If it were me, I'd trust my instincts rather than trying to think of what I "should" do. It doesn't sound like this is a universal problem, where you're consistently freezing people out regardless of their actions, so maybe just make some space to think about what feels safe, unsafe, inviting, pushing-away, open, or closed about your relationship with C.
posted by lapis at 7:52 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]