How should I approach a close relative's aversion to taking the bus?
December 7, 2022 6:57 AM Subscribe
I'm trying to figure how how to interpret, and fairly handle, what strikes me as an unreasonable refusal to take the bus. How should I think through what's going on here and what would be an appropriate way to engage it?
My twenty year old sister-in-law doesn't know how to drive. She lives with her mom (my new mother-in-law) about ten minutes across town from where I live with my partner, whom I recently married. Picture a medium-size touristy New England college town.
My new sister has a service industry job and ordinarily depends on her mom to drive her around: to and from work, to weekly physical therapy appointments (for chronic pain), and anywhere else she needs to go. The mom doesn't work (on disability) and is generally happy to do this. However, currently her mom is recovering from an elective surgery and can't (or at least definitely shouldn't) be driving for a few weeks.
I am an academic and work from home while my partner works in healthcare. While we are eager to try to help, including with the driving, our jobs mean that we simply cannot leave work to chaffeur my sister around two or three times a day, every day.
We did some brainstorming and were excited to find out that there is a good bus connection between where they live and where my sister works (there's a stop right in front of their house, and in front of her work, less than 30 minutes door to door). Sweet! However, when we proposed the idea of having her take the bus to work it triggered quite an outburst (tears, weeping, recriminations, etc.) and she categorically refused to take it. Variations of this scene unfolded each time we brought it up, and personally I've found it kind of bewildering and distressing.
While it struck us as a fair and even elegant compromise, given the constraints on our availability, to ask her to take the bus to work (with us picking her up after and bringing her home) she has remained adamant that she won't do it. This whole thing has become an escalating and emotionally damaging experience for everyone involved.
Is this kind of refusal something we should simply learn to accept? Or is asking somebody to take the bus sometimes fair to expect from a family member with whom we are trying to problem-solve?
Now, she's invoked a host of reasons for not wanting to take it, which seem to boil down to:
- it involves too much moving around and she has chronic pain (her service job involves moving around all day, so I'm not sure I get this one, and the drive isn't even much shorter in terms of total travel time)
- it feels unsafe (I find this one hard to swallow having lived in actual big cities with actually questionable public safety, but I suppose this one is very much in the eye of the beholder)
- it's cold
- it's unfair of us to ask her
- it makes her generally anxious and uncomfortable (I suspect this is the actual main reason)
So, if we can't drive her everywhere she needs to go, and she refuses to take the bus, what are the alternatives?
Scenario A: She stops going to work when she isn't driven by somebody, she loses her job, and stops contributing to rent. While this would seem to be her problem, it would really become our problem. My partner and I already pay a bunch of their rent and I guess the expectation would be that we would just end up having to pay the part the sister stops contributing.
Scenario B: She bullies her mom into driving her. As I said, my mother-in-law was just operated on and hasn't been cleared to drive -- this seems like an unacceptable option, but I just learned today that she not only has agreed to drive my sister around anyway, she may have already done so surreptitiously.
Scenario C: I capitulate and just agree to leave work multiple times a day to drive her around (which I probably could get away with but really shouldn't since I'm pre-tenure and need to make it rain this year at work).
Scenario C: Some unholy triangulated combination of elements from the different scenarios above.
I'm torn. Part of this strikes me as a harm reduction question. Partly it seems like a much-needed chance for somebody to learn something new and discomforting yet basic and necessary to growing up. Part of this seems like negotiating some kind of settlement that is fair and reasonable for all involved when there are multiple competing interests in tension.
My own view is that the bus is awesome, she should learn to use it, and it's ridiculous that she expects either (a) her professor brother to drop everything to drive her around every day (b) her driving-impaired mother, who is in pain, or on medication, to do something potentially extremely dangerous so my sister can avoid the bus.
Yet perhaps I am failing to find sufficient empathy or compassion that is needed to accommodate people who feel strongly that the bus is too much for them. Perhaps some people here can speak from that perspective? Or maybe from the other angle: what are some constructive ways of inviting people who hate public transit to learn to use when needed? What am I failing to appreciate here, or what's in need of some reframing? What can or should I be attending to as I consider how to handle this? As I said, I'm torn.
My twenty year old sister-in-law doesn't know how to drive. She lives with her mom (my new mother-in-law) about ten minutes across town from where I live with my partner, whom I recently married. Picture a medium-size touristy New England college town.
My new sister has a service industry job and ordinarily depends on her mom to drive her around: to and from work, to weekly physical therapy appointments (for chronic pain), and anywhere else she needs to go. The mom doesn't work (on disability) and is generally happy to do this. However, currently her mom is recovering from an elective surgery and can't (or at least definitely shouldn't) be driving for a few weeks.
I am an academic and work from home while my partner works in healthcare. While we are eager to try to help, including with the driving, our jobs mean that we simply cannot leave work to chaffeur my sister around two or three times a day, every day.
We did some brainstorming and were excited to find out that there is a good bus connection between where they live and where my sister works (there's a stop right in front of their house, and in front of her work, less than 30 minutes door to door). Sweet! However, when we proposed the idea of having her take the bus to work it triggered quite an outburst (tears, weeping, recriminations, etc.) and she categorically refused to take it. Variations of this scene unfolded each time we brought it up, and personally I've found it kind of bewildering and distressing.
While it struck us as a fair and even elegant compromise, given the constraints on our availability, to ask her to take the bus to work (with us picking her up after and bringing her home) she has remained adamant that she won't do it. This whole thing has become an escalating and emotionally damaging experience for everyone involved.
Is this kind of refusal something we should simply learn to accept? Or is asking somebody to take the bus sometimes fair to expect from a family member with whom we are trying to problem-solve?
Now, she's invoked a host of reasons for not wanting to take it, which seem to boil down to:
- it involves too much moving around and she has chronic pain (her service job involves moving around all day, so I'm not sure I get this one, and the drive isn't even much shorter in terms of total travel time)
- it feels unsafe (I find this one hard to swallow having lived in actual big cities with actually questionable public safety, but I suppose this one is very much in the eye of the beholder)
- it's cold
- it's unfair of us to ask her
- it makes her generally anxious and uncomfortable (I suspect this is the actual main reason)
So, if we can't drive her everywhere she needs to go, and she refuses to take the bus, what are the alternatives?
Scenario A: She stops going to work when she isn't driven by somebody, she loses her job, and stops contributing to rent. While this would seem to be her problem, it would really become our problem. My partner and I already pay a bunch of their rent and I guess the expectation would be that we would just end up having to pay the part the sister stops contributing.
Scenario B: She bullies her mom into driving her. As I said, my mother-in-law was just operated on and hasn't been cleared to drive -- this seems like an unacceptable option, but I just learned today that she not only has agreed to drive my sister around anyway, she may have already done so surreptitiously.
Scenario C: I capitulate and just agree to leave work multiple times a day to drive her around (which I probably could get away with but really shouldn't since I'm pre-tenure and need to make it rain this year at work).
Scenario C: Some unholy triangulated combination of elements from the different scenarios above.
I'm torn. Part of this strikes me as a harm reduction question. Partly it seems like a much-needed chance for somebody to learn something new and discomforting yet basic and necessary to growing up. Part of this seems like negotiating some kind of settlement that is fair and reasonable for all involved when there are multiple competing interests in tension.
My own view is that the bus is awesome, she should learn to use it, and it's ridiculous that she expects either (a) her professor brother to drop everything to drive her around every day (b) her driving-impaired mother, who is in pain, or on medication, to do something potentially extremely dangerous so my sister can avoid the bus.
Yet perhaps I am failing to find sufficient empathy or compassion that is needed to accommodate people who feel strongly that the bus is too much for them. Perhaps some people here can speak from that perspective? Or maybe from the other angle: what are some constructive ways of inviting people who hate public transit to learn to use when needed? What am I failing to appreciate here, or what's in need of some reframing? What can or should I be attending to as I consider how to handle this? As I said, I'm torn.
Can she take an Uber/Lyft sometimes?
In the long term, can she learn to drive?
(Idk about the bus stuff, I love the bus too much to contribute helpfully I think)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
In the long term, can she learn to drive?
(Idk about the bus stuff, I love the bus too much to contribute helpfully I think)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
what are some constructive ways of inviting people who hate public transit to learn to use when needed?
I suspect that you or someone else that she trusts will need to go on some sample bus rides with her. In addition to that working at identifying some of her concerns and working through the thought processes of handling e.g. Q: How do I know when the bus comes? A: Schedules and real time tracking Apps. Q: What if the bus is early/late? A: Build habits to plan and be early and allow for reasonable extra time. Q: What happens in emergency? A: Taxi? Uber? mother drives? having an understanding about work?
In addition to that, you can sell her on the fact that on the bus she can get some time just for herself...her choice of music, reading, web, games etc. as opposed to having to accommodate her driver.
posted by mmascolino at 7:08 AM on December 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
I suspect that you or someone else that she trusts will need to go on some sample bus rides with her. In addition to that working at identifying some of her concerns and working through the thought processes of handling e.g. Q: How do I know when the bus comes? A: Schedules and real time tracking Apps. Q: What if the bus is early/late? A: Build habits to plan and be early and allow for reasonable extra time. Q: What happens in emergency? A: Taxi? Uber? mother drives? having an understanding about work?
In addition to that, you can sell her on the fact that on the bus she can get some time just for herself...her choice of music, reading, web, games etc. as opposed to having to accommodate her driver.
posted by mmascolino at 7:08 AM on December 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Seconding to go with her a few times. I used to have similar anxieties about city buses in my college town, and it took riding the bus with friends for a while to realize it wasn't just a janky, unpredictable horrowshow ride fully of junkies and criminals, as I had been led to believe in my non-urban middle class upbringing.
posted by ananci at 7:11 AM on December 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by ananci at 7:11 AM on December 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
Short term: take one or two bus rides with her.
Long term: driving lessons and therapy for anxiety. If she's in therapy now, a different therapist. (I get not wanting to take the bus because it's "trashy" compared to a car, but if you can't drive yourself and won't take public transport, your life is about to become much, much more economically limited than the bus riders you look down on. Mom won't be there forever.)
posted by kingdead at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Long term: driving lessons and therapy for anxiety. If she's in therapy now, a different therapist. (I get not wanting to take the bus because it's "trashy" compared to a car, but if you can't drive yourself and won't take public transport, your life is about to become much, much more economically limited than the bus riders you look down on. Mom won't be there forever.)
posted by kingdead at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
In my experience it is quite common for people in car-centric places to be very opposed to public transit generally and buses in particular. I have even been scolded for taking the bus as people think it’s dirty or unsafe (it’s not at all).
I do totally understand not wanting to wait for the bus alone in the dark if you are already anxious about safety.
Maybe you could try a “let’s just give it a shot” approach. It seems like mom will be able to drive to some extent in a month or two so the bus doesn’t have to be a permanent thing right now. Framing it as something like, “we will take the bus with you for a couple of days then just try it out for a week” may help her get over any bias against trying the bus.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I do totally understand not wanting to wait for the bus alone in the dark if you are already anxious about safety.
Maybe you could try a “let’s just give it a shot” approach. It seems like mom will be able to drive to some extent in a month or two so the bus doesn’t have to be a permanent thing right now. Framing it as something like, “we will take the bus with you for a couple of days then just try it out for a week” may help her get over any bias against trying the bus.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
it involves too much moving around and she has chronic pain (her service job involves moving around all day, so I'm not sure I get this one, and the drive isn't even much shorter in terms of total travel time)
For what it's worth, the "pain" part of the explanation may not be bullshit. A lot of disabled people end up with a job and a daily routine that are just barely within their capacity for pain, exhaustion, etc — or, honestly, that go a bit beyond that capacity. In that situation, additional tasks can really be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
That doesn't mean you need to capitulate immediately or anything like that. Your job, your routine, and your energy levels matter too. But I do think you should believe her and look for a solution that takes her pain into account.
For example, could she take fewer hours at work for a while, and contribute less to rent without going down to nothing? Are there responsibilities at home that she could nope out of while she's taking on the extra walking and standing? Could she take an Uber on bad pain days, maybe with some financial help from the family? If there's a walk to/from the bus stop, could family or coworkers pick her up and drop her off at either end? Would a cane or a folding chair help make the walk and wait less painful?
You shouldn't need to find a solution on your own, but you can at least help her brainstorm around this stuff, and maybe offer help or accommodations that she doesn't realize are on the table. Hearing you say "it's okay if you take fewer hours and pay less rent for a while" (or whatever) might open up a possibility that she genuinely didn't think she was allowed to ask for.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:22 AM on December 7, 2022 [48 favorites]
For what it's worth, the "pain" part of the explanation may not be bullshit. A lot of disabled people end up with a job and a daily routine that are just barely within their capacity for pain, exhaustion, etc — or, honestly, that go a bit beyond that capacity. In that situation, additional tasks can really be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
That doesn't mean you need to capitulate immediately or anything like that. Your job, your routine, and your energy levels matter too. But I do think you should believe her and look for a solution that takes her pain into account.
For example, could she take fewer hours at work for a while, and contribute less to rent without going down to nothing? Are there responsibilities at home that she could nope out of while she's taking on the extra walking and standing? Could she take an Uber on bad pain days, maybe with some financial help from the family? If there's a walk to/from the bus stop, could family or coworkers pick her up and drop her off at either end? Would a cane or a folding chair help make the walk and wait less painful?
You shouldn't need to find a solution on your own, but you can at least help her brainstorm around this stuff, and maybe offer help or accommodations that she doesn't realize are on the table. Hearing you say "it's okay if you take fewer hours and pay less rent for a while" (or whatever) might open up a possibility that she genuinely didn't think she was allowed to ask for.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:22 AM on December 7, 2022 [48 favorites]
I'm a fan of public transit - anytime I have to do something in the city I will get out of my car onto the public transit system ASAP. But the first few times ARE scary, so I agree with above suggestions to take rides with her at first.
And before you say "PFFT - scary?" There are so many unknowns at first that seem obvious to frequent riders:
> how do you pay? coins? exact change? fare card? token?
> will the bus stop at every stop no matter what or do you have to pull a cord to tell the driver to stop?
> what if the bus doesn't come?
> what if you miss your stop?
With her chronic pain, SIL might have just enough energy to make it through a work day and a shorter car commute. Even if the bus adds only 20 minutes total, that's still 20 more minutes of being "on."
There is a stigma to using public transit if you're a suburb dweller. I work with people who are aghast I take the subway from time to time because they THINK it's filled with nogoodniks but really it's filled with people going to work.
Good luck!
posted by kimberussell at 7:23 AM on December 7, 2022 [37 favorites]
And before you say "PFFT - scary?" There are so many unknowns at first that seem obvious to frequent riders:
> how do you pay? coins? exact change? fare card? token?
> will the bus stop at every stop no matter what or do you have to pull a cord to tell the driver to stop?
> what if the bus doesn't come?
> what if you miss your stop?
With her chronic pain, SIL might have just enough energy to make it through a work day and a shorter car commute. Even if the bus adds only 20 minutes total, that's still 20 more minutes of being "on."
There is a stigma to using public transit if you're a suburb dweller. I work with people who are aghast I take the subway from time to time because they THINK it's filled with nogoodniks but really it's filled with people going to work.
Good luck!
posted by kimberussell at 7:23 AM on December 7, 2022 [37 favorites]
I agree on taking a couple of rides with her. I'm also wary of public transit because I don't know how it works (how do you pay? do you need cash? a transit card?) and because my balance is bad. I'm afraid that when the bus pulls away I'll lose my balance and fall before I reach my seat. If those fears were allayed, I would be glad to ride.
posted by manageyourexpectations at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by manageyourexpectations at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Riding with her a few times and/or encouraging her to find a friend to ride with her would be good. It also might be worth asking directly if she has had a prior bad experience on the bus or specific concerns about safety. While I like using public transportation, I have witnessed and experienced some awful situations and threatening individuals that could easily put someone off from using it again.
Also, I wouldn't dismiss the chronic pain concern. One of my friends gave up public transport after 30+ years due to significant weight gain and chronic pain. People were not kind, she was jostled, could rarely get a seat etc.
posted by fies at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also, I wouldn't dismiss the chronic pain concern. One of my friends gave up public transport after 30+ years due to significant weight gain and chronic pain. People were not kind, she was jostled, could rarely get a seat etc.
posted by fies at 7:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
For what it's worth, the "pain" part of the explanation may not be bullshit. A lot of disabled people end up with a job and a daily routine that are just barely within their capacity for pain, exhaustion, etc — or, honestly, that go a bit beyond that capacity. In that situation, additional tasks can really be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Seconding this - also, she may have concerns about whether she actually would be able to get a seat on the bus, especially if it's crowded. I sometimes had trouble getting a seat when I had a visible injury to my leg - it's probably even trickier for someone with an "invisible disability" like your sister (and yes, chronic pain is a disability) because people can sometimes just be shits ("fuck no, I'm not giving up my seat, it doesn't look like there's anything wrong with you").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 AM on December 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
Seconding this - also, she may have concerns about whether she actually would be able to get a seat on the bus, especially if it's crowded. I sometimes had trouble getting a seat when I had a visible injury to my leg - it's probably even trickier for someone with an "invisible disability" like your sister (and yes, chronic pain is a disability) because people can sometimes just be shits ("fuck no, I'm not giving up my seat, it doesn't look like there's anything wrong with you").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 AM on December 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
Be very clear about what you can offer in terms of practical support and monetary support. They can assess the consequences.
Offer to help her learn how to ride the bus.
Have a conversation with the mother to help her see this as an opportunity to help her daughter become more independent. After all she won't be around for ever and her health may not allow her to drive long before then. This would be a great point to challenge the dynamic and a great win for both of them.
Then you let the chips fall as they will. She may surprise you when she realises her immature outbursts are not effective. For example, she may step up to the plate and start to adult, she may find some friends/colleagues/acquaintances who are willing to give her a lift or perhaps she has a push bike she can start to ride (the only time when push bikes are a real problem is snow and black ice, which may or may not be relevant where you are and in the short-term). She may find the funds to pay for a rideshare. Or her mother may elect to do the wrong thing and drive her without being cleared thereby invalidating her insurance and what not but as I said...adults dealing with the consequences of their actions.
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Offer to help her learn how to ride the bus.
Have a conversation with the mother to help her see this as an opportunity to help her daughter become more independent. After all she won't be around for ever and her health may not allow her to drive long before then. This would be a great point to challenge the dynamic and a great win for both of them.
Then you let the chips fall as they will. She may surprise you when she realises her immature outbursts are not effective. For example, she may step up to the plate and start to adult, she may find some friends/colleagues/acquaintances who are willing to give her a lift or perhaps she has a push bike she can start to ride (the only time when push bikes are a real problem is snow and black ice, which may or may not be relevant where you are and in the short-term). She may find the funds to pay for a rideshare. Or her mother may elect to do the wrong thing and drive her without being cleared thereby invalidating her insurance and what not but as I said...adults dealing with the consequences of their actions.
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'd tell my partner it's their relationship(s) to navigate, and I can help out on like Tuesday morning, Thursday afternoon, or Saturday, and if it's Saturday I'll take the time to go with her on the bus. And that going forward I can't be a private Uber except for actual emergencies.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 7:38 AM on December 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by everythings_interrelated at 7:38 AM on December 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
Absolutely go with her, or arrange for someone else (SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THE BUS SYSTEM) to go with her, ideally when it's *not* time-sensitive, ideally several times. If you personally have not taken the bus much and don't know all the procedures and etiquette, you are the wrong person to do this. The idea is to give her a chance to a) test how much it is *actually* physically taxing b) give her a chance to see whether or not she finds it scary (you say you're her brother; respectfully, you are absolutely the wrong person to gauge how unsafe a woman is going to feel in this setting) c) give her a chance to learn the rules and procedures so she can feel confident about it. c) is likely to work out; a) and b) might not! In which case, the bus is not a solution to her problem and you need to drop it and look for others.
I am not especially anxious and I have taken public transit in cities all over, but I tend to avoid buses, for the simple reason that if I don't know the process, it's vastly more stressful to figure it out while a bus full of people is glaring at me and the driver becomes impatient. I'd rather walk further and take, say, the subway, where I'm likely to be able to stand back, watch some people use the turnstile, make sure I have the right card, etc, and getting on and off is a matter of going through an open door. Buses are harder!
Plus, I also have a chronic pain condition and worked stand-up jobs all year, and I did nothing else physical. I came home and climbed immediately into either the bathtub or bed with my pain management stuff. Adding anything else on top of that, especially on worse days, would have absolutely been unbearable. Do not fucking judge whether someone is in too much pain to do something or not. You don't have the data and you sure as shit don't have the right.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:45 AM on December 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
I am not especially anxious and I have taken public transit in cities all over, but I tend to avoid buses, for the simple reason that if I don't know the process, it's vastly more stressful to figure it out while a bus full of people is glaring at me and the driver becomes impatient. I'd rather walk further and take, say, the subway, where I'm likely to be able to stand back, watch some people use the turnstile, make sure I have the right card, etc, and getting on and off is a matter of going through an open door. Buses are harder!
Plus, I also have a chronic pain condition and worked stand-up jobs all year, and I did nothing else physical. I came home and climbed immediately into either the bathtub or bed with my pain management stuff. Adding anything else on top of that, especially on worse days, would have absolutely been unbearable. Do not fucking judge whether someone is in too much pain to do something or not. You don't have the data and you sure as shit don't have the right.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:45 AM on December 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
Is there any kind of disability transit available? In my area, there is an on-demand door-to-door service available for people with disabilities (they must get preapproved) in addition to the standard bus system. It costs a bit more but it is a good alternative to those who live several blocks from a bus route and can't walk that far without issues.
posted by soelo at 7:45 AM on December 7, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by soelo at 7:45 AM on December 7, 2022 [34 favorites]
I really don't think you should dismiss the claim of disability-related pain out of hand. As others have noted above, that may very much be a real factor in play here, and it's a bad idea on several levels to assume it's not. That doesn't mean you have to do what she's asking, but you can work on a solution without disbelieving her about her own disability.
You've got some good ideas here. I think in your partner's shoes I'd try some combination of offering to take a few bus rides with her, splitting the costs of a taxi, and looking for someone else in your extended friends/family network who might be able to provide even a few rides on particularly cold days or whatever. I'd also consider time of day - depending on where you are, sometimes morning bus rides are fully cold and dark and awful, and afternoon ones perfectly pleasant, so is there a possibility of flipping things so that you take her to work and she gets herself home?
In your shoes, though, yeah, I'd disentangle myself from this to an extent. Here are the days/times you can offer rides, here's any other help you're willing to offer (cab/rideshare fare, a weekend trip to check out the route, etc.), you hope she'll find a solution that works for her, and then you let her figure it out or at most let your partner work with their family to figure it out.
Separately from any of this, once you're all through this particular situation, it would be a kindness to help figure out what sort of paratransit is available in your area for people with disabilities and whether either of your family members qualifies. My understanding is that tends to take a while to get hooked up with so it's probably not a solution for this immediate issue.
posted by Stacey at 7:48 AM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
You've got some good ideas here. I think in your partner's shoes I'd try some combination of offering to take a few bus rides with her, splitting the costs of a taxi, and looking for someone else in your extended friends/family network who might be able to provide even a few rides on particularly cold days or whatever. I'd also consider time of day - depending on where you are, sometimes morning bus rides are fully cold and dark and awful, and afternoon ones perfectly pleasant, so is there a possibility of flipping things so that you take her to work and she gets herself home?
In your shoes, though, yeah, I'd disentangle myself from this to an extent. Here are the days/times you can offer rides, here's any other help you're willing to offer (cab/rideshare fare, a weekend trip to check out the route, etc.), you hope she'll find a solution that works for her, and then you let her figure it out or at most let your partner work with their family to figure it out.
Separately from any of this, once you're all through this particular situation, it would be a kindness to help figure out what sort of paratransit is available in your area for people with disabilities and whether either of your family members qualifies. My understanding is that tends to take a while to get hooked up with so it's probably not a solution for this immediate issue.
posted by Stacey at 7:48 AM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
she may have concerns about whether she actually would be able to get a seat on the bus
I was going to suggest that OP look up whether there are dedicated seats for the elderly and disabled on this system (most likely, yes), which will at least increase her likelihood of being able to sit down. It might be reassuring to know.
But...this woman is 20 years old. I'm not hearing that she has cognitive limitations. It's kind to be reassuring to her, but I don't think it's doing her any favors to baby her through this whole process. How is a twenty-year-old (within the limits of her physical capacity, of course) incapable of taking responsibility for getting to work? How does a twenty-year-old not feel (again, within the limits) responsibility for contributing to the household she's living in? Some boundaries are in order here, or you are going to be supporting this young woman for the rest of her life, regardless of whether she can hold a job. Accompanying her on the bus once to make sure there are no physical barriers to her using it seems reasonable, but you can't do everything for her or she will never learn how to learn.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [53 favorites]
I was going to suggest that OP look up whether there are dedicated seats for the elderly and disabled on this system (most likely, yes), which will at least increase her likelihood of being able to sit down. It might be reassuring to know.
But...this woman is 20 years old. I'm not hearing that she has cognitive limitations. It's kind to be reassuring to her, but I don't think it's doing her any favors to baby her through this whole process. How is a twenty-year-old (within the limits of her physical capacity, of course) incapable of taking responsibility for getting to work? How does a twenty-year-old not feel (again, within the limits) responsibility for contributing to the household she's living in? Some boundaries are in order here, or you are going to be supporting this young woman for the rest of her life, regardless of whether she can hold a job. Accompanying her on the bus once to make sure there are no physical barriers to her using it seems reasonable, but you can't do everything for her or she will never learn how to learn.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [53 favorites]
Your feelings on this are totally reasonable and relatable. But if you can try listening with an open mind, and demonstrably take her concerns seriously, this may facilitate better conversation.
If her position on riding the bus becomes negotiable, maybe sweetening the deal by offering to ride with her once or twice to a destination she wants to go to, and then paying for that destination (dinner, museum, shopping at Forever21, whatever it is), or straight up offering her a cash bonus to learn the bus with you, may help.
I don't know anything about chronic pain. Maybe she would be open, after good conversation, to taking the bus to work and you could drive her home after work.
The enabling part of this is unfortunate but I get that you are already subsidizing mom and don't feel you can draw a boundary around that. There's the short-term transportation challenge and there's a bigger, long-term need to work with mom on drawing her own boundaries, if that's possible.
I also wonder, what if a year from now, mom develops an issue that should prevent her from driving permanently, what's the daughter's plan then? What if it's in 10 years? Does she plan to move out at any point and if so, won't she want to have driving or public transportation-taking skills then? Does she want to have to fight with people to drive her forever, or might she want some slice of independence?
posted by happy_cat at 7:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
If her position on riding the bus becomes negotiable, maybe sweetening the deal by offering to ride with her once or twice to a destination she wants to go to, and then paying for that destination (dinner, museum, shopping at Forever21, whatever it is), or straight up offering her a cash bonus to learn the bus with you, may help.
I don't know anything about chronic pain. Maybe she would be open, after good conversation, to taking the bus to work and you could drive her home after work.
The enabling part of this is unfortunate but I get that you are already subsidizing mom and don't feel you can draw a boundary around that. There's the short-term transportation challenge and there's a bigger, long-term need to work with mom on drawing her own boundaries, if that's possible.
I also wonder, what if a year from now, mom develops an issue that should prevent her from driving permanently, what's the daughter's plan then? What if it's in 10 years? Does she plan to move out at any point and if so, won't she want to have driving or public transportation-taking skills then? Does she want to have to fight with people to drive her forever, or might she want some slice of independence?
posted by happy_cat at 7:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
it would be a kindness to help figure out what sort of paratransit is available in your area for people with disabilities and whether either of your family members qualifies
This might be useful for certain situations, but a person relying on paratransit to get to work is going to lose their job. They are notoriously unreliable in every community I've ever known. It's a shande, frankly.
posted by praemunire at 7:54 AM on December 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
This might be useful for certain situations, but a person relying on paratransit to get to work is going to lose their job. They are notoriously unreliable in every community I've ever known. It's a shande, frankly.
posted by praemunire at 7:54 AM on December 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
My very smart, adaptable, and independent teen blanched when I first suggested a city bus. "It's super easy!" I said, "no big deal at all!". Then I started trying to describe how you should wait at a stop in such a way that the driver of YOUR bus will know you intend to board and the drivers of WRONG busses will know that you do not intend to board, and what to say if a wrong bus does stop, as well as how to deposit money and/or use a fare card, and when I got to telling him there would be a pressure sensitive tape or possibly A STRING that needed to be pushed/pulled in advance of his stop (but not too far in advance)....I realized that riding the bus is actually complicated in a lot of tiny ways if you've never done it before, and I just rode with him the first time. After that one ride, it was totally fine. But I had to admit, he wasn't wrong to feel a little daunted about doing it for the first time without anyone to guide him.
posted by Ausamor at 7:55 AM on December 7, 2022 [63 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 7:55 AM on December 7, 2022 [63 favorites]
I agree with your long-term goals. Being able to navigate public transit systems is a critical life skill, especially for people who might need to get away from people (like most people!)
I wouldn't dismiss her complaints. Taking the bus after a long day of work is simply not fun for most people, and I say that as a hardcore transit user. But that's not a reason to not do things. Being anxious about things is not a reason to avoid them forever.
I suggest:
- finding time to do the route with her a few times
- if you can, for the first week, pick her up (or pick her up a few times) after work so that she's only taking the bus to work
- create a back up plan with her, so like, what if the bus doesn't come? That's the one day you spend $$ for Uber
posted by warriorqueen at 7:57 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't dismiss her complaints. Taking the bus after a long day of work is simply not fun for most people, and I say that as a hardcore transit user. But that's not a reason to not do things. Being anxious about things is not a reason to avoid them forever.
I suggest:
- finding time to do the route with her a few times
- if you can, for the first week, pick her up (or pick her up a few times) after work so that she's only taking the bus to work
- create a back up plan with her, so like, what if the bus doesn't come? That's the one day you spend $$ for Uber
posted by warriorqueen at 7:57 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yet perhaps I am failing to find sufficient empathy or compassion that is needed to accommodate people who feel strongly that the bus is too much for them. Perhaps some people here can speak from that perspective?
I don't know your gender identity or presentation, but as a woman who has been groped, threatened, forced to watch someone masturbate, and trapped by mentally ill/high people, all on separate occasions on and around public transit, I can completely relate to a woman's hesitancy to take it, and if someone belittled my feelings about public transit as an "aversion" instead of a legitimate fear, I would feel this person was not a trustworthy source on how much risk taking transit carries for women.
I still regularly take public transit (in SF Bay Area), and have my whole adult life in cities across the U.S., and the experiences above are a tiny minority of the trips I've taken. But quite traumatic things can happen in and around transit (rainy day girl described the reasons well), ESPECIALLY to women, and post-pandemic it's gotten worse. Not to mention the less-threatening-but-still-stressful getting chatted up/hit on that happens too. I would keep this in mind before saying things like "It's FINE!" or "There's nothing to be scared of!" because sometimes bad shit happens on transit.
posted by rogerroger at 7:59 AM on December 7, 2022 [32 favorites]
I don't know your gender identity or presentation, but as a woman who has been groped, threatened, forced to watch someone masturbate, and trapped by mentally ill/high people, all on separate occasions on and around public transit, I can completely relate to a woman's hesitancy to take it, and if someone belittled my feelings about public transit as an "aversion" instead of a legitimate fear, I would feel this person was not a trustworthy source on how much risk taking transit carries for women.
I still regularly take public transit (in SF Bay Area), and have my whole adult life in cities across the U.S., and the experiences above are a tiny minority of the trips I've taken. But quite traumatic things can happen in and around transit (rainy day girl described the reasons well), ESPECIALLY to women, and post-pandemic it's gotten worse. Not to mention the less-threatening-but-still-stressful getting chatted up/hit on that happens too. I would keep this in mind before saying things like "It's FINE!" or "There's nothing to be scared of!" because sometimes bad shit happens on transit.
posted by rogerroger at 7:59 AM on December 7, 2022 [32 favorites]
I think it could be that she doesn’t know how to take the bus, what that entails and she’s very anxious about it. It may be easier for her to give the excuses she did rather than admit she’s scared and she doesn’t know how to do something or that she’s not in a space where she thinks she can figure it out. I agree with other commenters that some dry runs are a good starting point where she is with other people she knows to help her navigate and show her the ropes.
Also, maybe to ease her into this transition, for the time being you (or someone) drives her one way but she will need to ride the bus back, until she’s fairly confident with bus riding - which she’ll probably catch on to within a few rides.
*as and anxious person myself who struggles greatly with new situations and how to do things so that attention isn’t drawn to myself in public spaces, I feel for her. The best thing for me in those situations is being able to have dry runs where the first few times I only have to observe to learn the ins and outs before having to actually do the thing on my own.
posted by Sassyfras at 8:04 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, maybe to ease her into this transition, for the time being you (or someone) drives her one way but she will need to ride the bus back, until she’s fairly confident with bus riding - which she’ll probably catch on to within a few rides.
*as and anxious person myself who struggles greatly with new situations and how to do things so that attention isn’t drawn to myself in public spaces, I feel for her. The best thing for me in those situations is being able to have dry runs where the first few times I only have to observe to learn the ins and outs before having to actually do the thing on my own.
posted by Sassyfras at 8:04 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
My main fear as a sheltered 20-year-old woman riding the city bus alone was being approached/harassed by strange men. These fears were not unfounded, because it happened more often than I wanted! And I was physically sound and could at least easily get up and move to a different seat or closer to the driver if I had to. But there was still a fair amount of wearing headphones, trying to ignore men talking to me, plastering on a neutral smile, and making my excuses so I could get away without angering whichever strange dude was trying to get my number. It was, frankly, exhausting. The first few times it happened were extra terrifying because I just didn't have much familiarity with the surrounding streets and avenues and I couldn't easily hop off the bus and navigate my way to a safer place. (this was pre-smartphones). The daytime "commuter" routes were easier than the nightlife routes, but it still happened. Something to consider from your SIL's perspective.
posted by castlebravo at 8:06 AM on December 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by castlebravo at 8:06 AM on December 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
rogerroger's point was very much one I wanted to make as well. What sounds like irrational anxiety might in fact have plenty of citations to justify it in her lived experience.
posted by teremala at 8:06 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by teremala at 8:06 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Have her BROTHER take the bus with her a few times. This is not your circus, not your monkeys.
posted by nkknkk at 8:09 AM on December 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by nkknkk at 8:09 AM on December 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
I would keep this in mind before saying things like "It's FINE!" or "There's nothing to be scared of!" because sometimes bad shit happens on transit.
As a woman with the usual panoply of unpleasant transit experiences (and also anxiety), I would agree one definitely shouldn't say this. (I also think one should not dismiss out of hand concerns about the extra physical burden of chronic pain.) But at the same time, life itself, and especially going into public, is risky. One has to learn how to manage risks, as well as one's anxiety about risks, if one is to function at all. Long-term avoidance is a terrible strategy for risk or anxiety management, and facilitating long-term avoidance is doing no favors.
My parents put me on a bus in a major and genuinely crime-ridden city for 2.5 hours each school day for two years when I was twelve. OK, it was a different time, we wouldn't do that now, to be honest I'm not happy they did that then. But a twenty-year-old who can't even google how to do basic life tasks is on the wrong path. It's a lot easier to learn the little informal norms now than it was when I was a kid. I don't think it's ever easy to learn how to deal with creeps, etc., so as to minimize the chances of harm, but, even stipulating that it's not fair, you kind of have to. And someone who doesn't even support herself is someone who needs to learn to get over any suburban snobbery (if any) that is getting in the way of her earning a living.
posted by praemunire at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2022 [24 favorites]
As a woman with the usual panoply of unpleasant transit experiences (and also anxiety), I would agree one definitely shouldn't say this. (I also think one should not dismiss out of hand concerns about the extra physical burden of chronic pain.) But at the same time, life itself, and especially going into public, is risky. One has to learn how to manage risks, as well as one's anxiety about risks, if one is to function at all. Long-term avoidance is a terrible strategy for risk or anxiety management, and facilitating long-term avoidance is doing no favors.
My parents put me on a bus in a major and genuinely crime-ridden city for 2.5 hours each school day for two years when I was twelve. OK, it was a different time, we wouldn't do that now, to be honest I'm not happy they did that then. But a twenty-year-old who can't even google how to do basic life tasks is on the wrong path. It's a lot easier to learn the little informal norms now than it was when I was a kid. I don't think it's ever easy to learn how to deal with creeps, etc., so as to minimize the chances of harm, but, even stipulating that it's not fair, you kind of have to. And someone who doesn't even support herself is someone who needs to learn to get over any suburban snobbery (if any) that is getting in the way of her earning a living.
posted by praemunire at 8:21 AM on December 7, 2022 [24 favorites]
At risk of sounding quite dispassionate about your SIL's immediate situation, it would be better for your family unit if she lost her job and you got tenure. You have apparently agreed to have two adult dependents and increasing your income will make their lack of rent contributions hurt your budget a lot less in the future.
There's already a lot of good bus advice above, but I just wanted to advocate for setting firm deadlines on your availability when you're at work. She couldn't walk off her job and stay employed, and it's not selfish for the same to apply to you.
posted by rawralphadawg at 8:24 AM on December 7, 2022 [44 favorites]
There's already a lot of good bus advice above, but I just wanted to advocate for setting firm deadlines on your availability when you're at work. She couldn't walk off her job and stay employed, and it's not selfish for the same to apply to you.
posted by rawralphadawg at 8:24 AM on December 7, 2022 [44 favorites]
You don’t have to give more than you can, but if you want to participate in problem-solving here, you need to take her at her word about her pain.
I love public transit, but I’m able-bodied. If the bus is late, I can wait without physical discomfort, even if it’s cold out. I don’t feel especially vulnerable in the dark. I can easily maneuver through un-shoveled snow, or other obstacles at bus stops and on sidewalks in car-centric areas. It’s not a problem for me to stand for a 15-30 minute ride if there isn’t a seat—it won’t make my back ache, isn’t physically taxing, and I don’t have any joint pain or muscle weakness in my hands or ankles that would prevent balancing while the bus moves or gripping a pole. There’s very little risk that I’ll injure myself by losing balance. People don’t offer me a seat, but that’s ok because I don’t need it. If there’s a handicap seat available, I can let someone else have it and not worry about getting harassed for using it but not “looking disabled.”
That’s not to say it’s impossible for a disabled person to ride the bus, or that you owe your SIL something here, but there are significant, valid reasons a person with chronic pain might want to avoid the bus. Take them seriously if you plan to continue trying to find a solution here.
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
I love public transit, but I’m able-bodied. If the bus is late, I can wait without physical discomfort, even if it’s cold out. I don’t feel especially vulnerable in the dark. I can easily maneuver through un-shoveled snow, or other obstacles at bus stops and on sidewalks in car-centric areas. It’s not a problem for me to stand for a 15-30 minute ride if there isn’t a seat—it won’t make my back ache, isn’t physically taxing, and I don’t have any joint pain or muscle weakness in my hands or ankles that would prevent balancing while the bus moves or gripping a pole. There’s very little risk that I’ll injure myself by losing balance. People don’t offer me a seat, but that’s ok because I don’t need it. If there’s a handicap seat available, I can let someone else have it and not worry about getting harassed for using it but not “looking disabled.”
That’s not to say it’s impossible for a disabled person to ride the bus, or that you owe your SIL something here, but there are significant, valid reasons a person with chronic pain might want to avoid the bus. Take them seriously if you plan to continue trying to find a solution here.
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:25 AM on December 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
As an older woman who has an invisible disability and who has been harassed in public, I can absolutely relate to all of the fears raised about taking public transit.
That said, I agree with the MeFites who say that someone's riding the route with your sister-in-law a couple of times may help allay her concerns about the local bus system.
Also, if SIL has a smartphone, she may find that each stop in your town-region is numbered and that riders receive a heads up about the timing of the next bus at said stop.
That's the way it works in the small-city bus New England system that I ride, and it keeps me from having to stand outside in the cold for a bus that won't be coming for another 10 minutes. (YMMV, of course.)
posted by virago at 8:37 AM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
That said, I agree with the MeFites who say that someone's riding the route with your sister-in-law a couple of times may help allay her concerns about the local bus system.
Also, if SIL has a smartphone, she may find that each stop in your town-region is numbered and that riders receive a heads up about the timing of the next bus at said stop.
That's the way it works in the small-city bus New England system that I ride, and it keeps me from having to stand outside in the cold for a bus that won't be coming for another 10 minutes. (YMMV, of course.)
posted by virago at 8:37 AM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
To paraphrase Ulysses Everett McGill, you're in a tight spot. Considering that you & partner are already subsidizing MIL/SIL's rent, there is very little upside here for you.
You can't just cross your arms, insist that SIL take the bus and decline to make yourself available to chauffeur SIL around. There are two possible outcomes in that event, and neither one seems good. Outcome #1 is that SIL refuses to take the bus and misses work. At best SIL's income will be reduced during that time period, and at worst SIL will lose her job. In either case it sounds like you and partner would be on the hook financially. Outcome #2 is that MIL chauffeurs SIL around during her recovery period. Also not optimal. On the other hand, MIL is a grown woman who is capable of making her own decisions and Outcome #2 at least takes the onus off of you. A potential solution, if you can afford it, could be to agree to pay for SIL's transportation (only) to/from her workplace.
A major consideration -- perhaps THE major consideration -- that has not been sufficiently explained is your partner's position on all of this. What does your partner want to happen? What does your partner want you to do? Is it a built-in part of your partner's family dynamic that everyone bends over backwards to accommodate SIL's transportation needs? If you were to decline to chauffeur SIL around, would that create friction in your relationship with your partner? I'm also unsure why the entire burden of replacing MIL as SIL's chauffeur falls to you. Would it not be possible for your partner to arrange to handle some of the driving responsibilities? It might be difficult and annoying for your partner to do this, but I doubt it would be impossible.
posted by slkinsey at 8:43 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
You can't just cross your arms, insist that SIL take the bus and decline to make yourself available to chauffeur SIL around. There are two possible outcomes in that event, and neither one seems good. Outcome #1 is that SIL refuses to take the bus and misses work. At best SIL's income will be reduced during that time period, and at worst SIL will lose her job. In either case it sounds like you and partner would be on the hook financially. Outcome #2 is that MIL chauffeurs SIL around during her recovery period. Also not optimal. On the other hand, MIL is a grown woman who is capable of making her own decisions and Outcome #2 at least takes the onus off of you. A potential solution, if you can afford it, could be to agree to pay for SIL's transportation (only) to/from her workplace.
A major consideration -- perhaps THE major consideration -- that has not been sufficiently explained is your partner's position on all of this. What does your partner want to happen? What does your partner want you to do? Is it a built-in part of your partner's family dynamic that everyone bends over backwards to accommodate SIL's transportation needs? If you were to decline to chauffeur SIL around, would that create friction in your relationship with your partner? I'm also unsure why the entire burden of replacing MIL as SIL's chauffeur falls to you. Would it not be possible for your partner to arrange to handle some of the driving responsibilities? It might be difficult and annoying for your partner to do this, but I doubt it would be impossible.
posted by slkinsey at 8:43 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is an anxiety response; she is afraid, and probably not all her reasons are irrational. So you can feel owed some different response and it could be practical for her to give a different response but the path to getting what you want should involve acknowledging her concerns as legitimate and focusing on addressing them while also making the thing you want to happen happen.
You aren't obligated to have any empathy for this and you could leave her to figure it out without you, but if you want to do something that isn't giving in and driving her around, helping her through this would be a useful option. It just is useful to remember this is mostly not about you and is largely about her own disrupted routine and fear of the unknown.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:49 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
You aren't obligated to have any empathy for this and you could leave her to figure it out without you, but if you want to do something that isn't giving in and driving her around, helping her through this would be a useful option. It just is useful to remember this is mostly not about you and is largely about her own disrupted routine and fear of the unknown.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:49 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
However you approach this, you need to take your emotions about the bus being awesome and good for everyone and put them aside. They're not helping you or your sister-in-law.
posted by wintersweet at 9:09 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 9:09 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
You're missing scenario E: you generously offer to give her rides when you can, and the 20-year-old adult can figure out her own transport for the times when you can't. If she loses her job, that also becomes her problem to solve. Whether or not she takes the bus is irrelevant: you're not doing her any favors by participating in this family dynamic where her problems become everyone else's. I suggest, instead, that you ask her questions that imply that she has the agency in this situation (because she does!): "we are not available to drive you on thursday. How do you think you can get to work?"
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:13 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:13 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
How come Uber/Lyft has only been mentioned once in this thread so far? You may have to pay for her rides/order them if she's really unable to manage that, but getting someone else to do the damn driving may be worth it in this case if it's a situation that will go on for only a few weeks.
I took the bus for years, but if she's throwing THIS LEVEL of shit fit at the idea of doing it, it's probably not worth the drama/crying/time to fight with her into making her do it, even if you hold her hand, take the bus with her, etc. This seems like some kind of dramatic trauma reaction rather than just "I'm not sure how to figure out the bus system."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:19 AM on December 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I took the bus for years, but if she's throwing THIS LEVEL of shit fit at the idea of doing it, it's probably not worth the drama/crying/time to fight with her into making her do it, even if you hold her hand, take the bus with her, etc. This seems like some kind of dramatic trauma reaction rather than just "I'm not sure how to figure out the bus system."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:19 AM on December 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think riding the bus with her is a good idea.
Also, someone with a good rapport with her should ask what specific chronic pain issues she worries about - is standing for an extended period painful? Is it fatigue? Does she need to make movements to get on and off the bus that are painful? Does she have Reynaud's like problems with cold? There may be supports that your family can help her source which would make the bus process more comfortable.
For me, I have an invisible disability which makes standing unsupported for extended periods painful. I can do some moving/lifting/active stuff as long as I can lean or sit down between bursts of activity, but standing straight up for twenty minutes would be very painful. If I needed to take the bus regularly (I can bike and I work from home) I would either need to establish that I could sit or lean at both bus stops or I would need forearm crutches. Because I am young-ish and because it's an invisible disability, I get glares on the bus sometimes when I need to sit. Because I'm An Old, I just ignore them - but it might have been different if I were twenty.
I guess my feeling is that employed twenty-year-olds don't usually burst into hysterical tears just because they really don't enjoy the idea of taking the bus. Unless she is completely spoiled in every other area of life and this is her typical response to disagreeable situations, it seems worthwhile to assume that she has a point with her concerns.
That said, this seems like a great time to address the "what happens in the future" question - she is precariously employed and her mother is not getting any younger - unless you both want to and plan to be capable of financially and logistically supporting her (or would feel comfortable if she ended up homeless, etc), you already know that there has to be a plan for her future.
I really sympathize here, because in a lot of family situations, the choice really is between picking up an unfair burden and accepting that your family member becomes homeless because they cannot maintain a job and self-care. People say that you should just coolly step back and let others be responsible, but there are a lot of situations where they can't and won't.
posted by Frowner at 9:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
Also, someone with a good rapport with her should ask what specific chronic pain issues she worries about - is standing for an extended period painful? Is it fatigue? Does she need to make movements to get on and off the bus that are painful? Does she have Reynaud's like problems with cold? There may be supports that your family can help her source which would make the bus process more comfortable.
For me, I have an invisible disability which makes standing unsupported for extended periods painful. I can do some moving/lifting/active stuff as long as I can lean or sit down between bursts of activity, but standing straight up for twenty minutes would be very painful. If I needed to take the bus regularly (I can bike and I work from home) I would either need to establish that I could sit or lean at both bus stops or I would need forearm crutches. Because I am young-ish and because it's an invisible disability, I get glares on the bus sometimes when I need to sit. Because I'm An Old, I just ignore them - but it might have been different if I were twenty.
I guess my feeling is that employed twenty-year-olds don't usually burst into hysterical tears just because they really don't enjoy the idea of taking the bus. Unless she is completely spoiled in every other area of life and this is her typical response to disagreeable situations, it seems worthwhile to assume that she has a point with her concerns.
That said, this seems like a great time to address the "what happens in the future" question - she is precariously employed and her mother is not getting any younger - unless you both want to and plan to be capable of financially and logistically supporting her (or would feel comfortable if she ended up homeless, etc), you already know that there has to be a plan for her future.
I really sympathize here, because in a lot of family situations, the choice really is between picking up an unfair burden and accepting that your family member becomes homeless because they cannot maintain a job and self-care. People say that you should just coolly step back and let others be responsible, but there are a lot of situations where they can't and won't.
posted by Frowner at 9:20 AM on December 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
public transportation is a tricky proposition for disabled folks; it's understandable to be anxious about it. I've had bus drivers be abusive to me when I've asserted my need for assistance.
And I'm in a wheelchair, with the advantage of a very physical disability unlike the case with the OP, so when I vent about it luckily nobody is telling me to get the fuck over it and stop being a baby
posted by angrycat at 9:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
And I'm in a wheelchair, with the advantage of a very physical disability unlike the case with the OP, so when I vent about it luckily nobody is telling me to get the fuck over it and stop being a baby
posted by angrycat at 9:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've increasingly seen people with non-apparent disabilities wearing pins on public transit to communicate their needs, a few examples from Etsy: 1, 2
posted by veery at 9:32 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by veery at 9:32 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
A few comments:
-My dad drove a taxi in Baltimore (so, major city- perhaps not comparable here) and a good third of his business was people with disabilities, since the city has a program for people who qualify to get door to door taxi service for the cost of a bus ticket. So it is worth looking into.
-This should be your partner's problem mainly, not your problem. You can/should of course support your partner in dealing with this, but I did wonder the whole time reading your question where your partner was in all of this, given that this is their sister and mother.
-If the value of your free time is more than the cost of an Uber, I would just offer to at least split the cost with your sister-in-law.
-I wouldn't focus on short-term solutions, but more on long-term ones. This current problem sounds like it will only last a few weeks - so whether that means spending more time or money on Uber, I'd just consider these next few weeks a loss. Sure, you can offer to take the bus with her, but there is a good chance given her reaction to the suggestion of the bus that she will reject that too. Breaking down in tears is a pretty extreme reaction to the mere idea of a 30min bus ride.
Long term: figuring out a better career path for her, teaching her how to drive, seeing what disability programs she qualifies for, therapy for anxiety, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 9:34 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
-My dad drove a taxi in Baltimore (so, major city- perhaps not comparable here) and a good third of his business was people with disabilities, since the city has a program for people who qualify to get door to door taxi service for the cost of a bus ticket. So it is worth looking into.
-This should be your partner's problem mainly, not your problem. You can/should of course support your partner in dealing with this, but I did wonder the whole time reading your question where your partner was in all of this, given that this is their sister and mother.
-If the value of your free time is more than the cost of an Uber, I would just offer to at least split the cost with your sister-in-law.
-I wouldn't focus on short-term solutions, but more on long-term ones. This current problem sounds like it will only last a few weeks - so whether that means spending more time or money on Uber, I'd just consider these next few weeks a loss. Sure, you can offer to take the bus with her, but there is a good chance given her reaction to the suggestion of the bus that she will reject that too. Breaking down in tears is a pretty extreme reaction to the mere idea of a 30min bus ride.
Long term: figuring out a better career path for her, teaching her how to drive, seeing what disability programs she qualifies for, therapy for anxiety, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 9:34 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Her mother being unable to drive sounds like a reason for her job to give her some time off, unpaid if she doesn't get PTO. This is a short term solution, of course, but that could at least solve the problem of her losing the job forever.
posted by soelo at 9:39 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by soelo at 9:39 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ya know, we have two adults here, and we do not have a therapy license or a court order to nonconsensually force the daughter into unmonitored exposure therapy for what could possibly be a phobia or a trauma trigger. We don’t have an MD or a court order to force the mother into following medical advice. Disability is rampant and support for disability is horrifically scant. Maybe she got assaulted on a bus, maybe she is masking a neurodivergent status or a pain and fatigue disability and has NO spoons for the bus. I would be grateful to hear from the OP as to how the consent of the mom and daughter factor in here. Funding them doesn’t equal your authority. There are so many accessible solutions if mom doesn’t want to drive or doesn’t have capacity to consent to drive—crowdfunding an Uber-lift funding pot, network mutual aid call for lifts… talk with them! I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, your intent is very clearly supportive, but I’m a very tired disabled person who is big on agency and autonomy. Counterintuitively, supporting someone’s access needs may help maintain independence (keeping a job). If you think there’s some sort of codependency thing with mom and daughter and you don’t like it, your options are to invite them to family therapy or to set your own boundaries. If you’re avoidant or scared of consequences to mom and daughter if you can’t fund the rent etc, therapy can help you gain resilience there. And I think it’s awesome that you’re advocating for your own boundaries! I hope you can find a great solution and make it rain at work, too!
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 9:46 AM on December 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 9:46 AM on December 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Do you or your partner take the bus on a regular basis? Because while there is a lot to be said for public transit, it is decidedly not "awesome" for a lot of people, particularly those who are marginalized by gender, disability, or class. Especially in a town where "taking the bus" is not the main form of transportation for middle-class people.
I mean, I am an able-bodied professional in a mid-sized American city, and people look at me like I have two heads when they find out that I take the bus. (Like, you can see the cognitive dissonance wash over them; it's only a thin veneer of politeness that keeps them from blurting out "but only THOSE PEOPLE take the bus!")
I still do it because I like that I can build a brisk walk into my workday, and I hate driving in rush hour, but let me be clear that the bus is not "awesome;" I have to plan around the infrequent headways in my city, and contend with cold, rain, and humidity, and cross one busy street near my house where people regularly go 15 mph over the limit (particularly problematic at this time of year, when it's dark by the time I leave the office -- I've almost been hit in the crosswalk multiple times). It's just the least bad way of getting to work, at least for my circumstances at present. If I had chronic pain or another disability, or had experienced trauma on public transit, or were younger and more diffident about asking for a seat,* my experience would be worse to the point where yeah I might not want to take the bus at all.
The flipside is that sometimes people can internalize all kinds of ideas of why public transit being dangerous or too much effort, to the point where it feels impossible to even consider taking the bus. I wonder if that's where your sister-in-law is at.
Agree with all those suggesting you take the bus with your sister-in-law, at least once, and ideally not just a "let's go to your workplace together and I'll show you how to use the farebox" thing which feels infantilizing. Can you use the bus to get to a restaurant for dinner, or another social event? Show her the logistics of the bus, in a non-threatening way. There may also be some aspects of her pain condition that feel to her like they would be too much for the public transit, but actually there is a simpler solution she's not aware of. (Example: hand pain can make it hard to swipe a card or insert change/dollar bills into the farebox, but many systems now have "tap to pay" which is faster and easier for everyone.
* Yesterday there was a dude just standing in front of an empty seat. I asked if he could move so I could sit down, and he was surprised but complied. If I were younger, I probably would have stood the whole way and resented him for it, but now I have gray hair and DGAF. I will also take the last slice of cake these days.
posted by basalganglia at 9:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
I mean, I am an able-bodied professional in a mid-sized American city, and people look at me like I have two heads when they find out that I take the bus. (Like, you can see the cognitive dissonance wash over them; it's only a thin veneer of politeness that keeps them from blurting out "but only THOSE PEOPLE take the bus!")
I still do it because I like that I can build a brisk walk into my workday, and I hate driving in rush hour, but let me be clear that the bus is not "awesome;" I have to plan around the infrequent headways in my city, and contend with cold, rain, and humidity, and cross one busy street near my house where people regularly go 15 mph over the limit (particularly problematic at this time of year, when it's dark by the time I leave the office -- I've almost been hit in the crosswalk multiple times). It's just the least bad way of getting to work, at least for my circumstances at present. If I had chronic pain or another disability, or had experienced trauma on public transit, or were younger and more diffident about asking for a seat,* my experience would be worse to the point where yeah I might not want to take the bus at all.
The flipside is that sometimes people can internalize all kinds of ideas of why public transit being dangerous or too much effort, to the point where it feels impossible to even consider taking the bus. I wonder if that's where your sister-in-law is at.
Agree with all those suggesting you take the bus with your sister-in-law, at least once, and ideally not just a "let's go to your workplace together and I'll show you how to use the farebox" thing which feels infantilizing. Can you use the bus to get to a restaurant for dinner, or another social event? Show her the logistics of the bus, in a non-threatening way. There may also be some aspects of her pain condition that feel to her like they would be too much for the public transit, but actually there is a simpler solution she's not aware of. (Example: hand pain can make it hard to swipe a card or insert change/dollar bills into the farebox, but many systems now have "tap to pay" which is faster and easier for everyone.
* Yesterday there was a dude just standing in front of an empty seat. I asked if he could move so I could sit down, and he was surprised but complied. If I were younger, I probably would have stood the whole way and resented him for it, but now I have gray hair and DGAF. I will also take the last slice of cake these days.
posted by basalganglia at 9:52 AM on December 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
Oh, and in terms of your pre-tenure worries....I am also an academic, and especially since 2020, a lot of pre-tenure people have had to balance workload with non-academic demands on their time. Is there any tenured faculty member in your department who you can trust? If so, I'd let them in on what's going on, and ask if they can honestly evaluate whether you're ahead or behind of where you need to be for tenure. If you're ahead, unless you're at somewhere super intense like Harvard, you probably can afford to devote some time in the next few weeks to this problem, but draw a firm boundary that this is one-time only concession, and that you expect the sister-in-law to work on a long-term solution so this doesn't happen again. It's good to draw firm boundaries around academia's tendency to consume all of our time too.
posted by coffeecat at 9:59 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 9:59 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Her mother is not onboard with the idea that she shouldn't be driving currently. So, the two most likely outcomes are that you or your partner drive her, or her mother drives her. The bus is a great idea but she won't do it. Maybe at most you could offer once to go with her on the bus. But if not, I would leave it. There's probably a slightly higher chance she would take an uber/taxi and you could offer to pay for those. If that elicits the same reaction as the bus, then offer to help as much as you reasonably can and then treat them as autonomous adults capable of making their own decisions for the rest of it. You cannot save people from themselves.
posted by plonkee at 10:02 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 10:02 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd be careful with the suggestion that she take time off her job. Sure, she may be entitled to time off/PTO, but I myself would be super nervous with any curtailing of my job duties that relate to my disability, even briefly. Because I don't trust employers when it comes to disabled employees.
posted by angrycat at 10:21 AM on December 7, 2022
posted by angrycat at 10:21 AM on December 7, 2022
My take on this is that she is an adult and she can figure out how to get herself to work. Don't make this your problem, especially since this is your spouse's sister, not yours.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:21 AM on December 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 10:21 AM on December 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
She is an adult and she will therefore simply have to do things that are painful, unpleasant, frightening, and excessively time-consuming, in spite of not wanting to. like take the bus if she needs to go somewhere.
however it's a bit much for you to take on this bus-boosting attitude when you have a car. If you think the bus is so "awesome" why aren't you always in it?
the truth is that the bus is for the environmentally conscious, on the one hand, and for the poor and powerless, on the other. the reason she must take the bus, while you may drive your own automobile, is because you have options and abilities and money that she doesn't. these are the facts; the facts are these. you can say no to her - she'll be all right, just miserable. but don't pretend.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:22 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
however it's a bit much for you to take on this bus-boosting attitude when you have a car. If you think the bus is so "awesome" why aren't you always in it?
the truth is that the bus is for the environmentally conscious, on the one hand, and for the poor and powerless, on the other. the reason she must take the bus, while you may drive your own automobile, is because you have options and abilities and money that she doesn't. these are the facts; the facts are these. you can say no to her - she'll be all right, just miserable. but don't pretend.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:22 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
People have already mentioned gender and disability as reasons that she might feel uncomfortable about using the bus, but I also wanted to throw in that perceptions of who takes transit in non-major US cities is incredibly racialized. If your sister is white, there is a very good chance that she has been steeping in a lot of ideas, consciously or unconsciously, about the particular threat that men of color pose. Her concerns about pain and disability are absolutely legit, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t simultaneously be covering for a certain amount of racism and classism. It’s complicated.
If this is the case, you ABSOLUTELY MUST resist the temptation to directly call out any suspicions of racism. Doing so will send her into a spiral of white fragility/defensiveness and immediately kill your credibility. You can believe it, you can complain to like-minded friends who don’t know your sister, but you cannot state it directly.
What you can do, elaborating on some of the suggestions above, is to specifically seek out a white woman who regularly takes transit to be her guide. (If you involve yourself at all in this situation, that is. Choosing to disengage is also an option).
Source; I am a white cis lady and regular bus rider. Being a calm, competent model of bus use is how I got an openly racist white female classmate to ride with me to a required school thing. I truly believe that I have a moral imperative as a white woman to ride buses when it is at all feasible, in order to model that people “like me” are regular public transit users.
posted by ActionPopulated at 10:26 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
If this is the case, you ABSOLUTELY MUST resist the temptation to directly call out any suspicions of racism. Doing so will send her into a spiral of white fragility/defensiveness and immediately kill your credibility. You can believe it, you can complain to like-minded friends who don’t know your sister, but you cannot state it directly.
What you can do, elaborating on some of the suggestions above, is to specifically seek out a white woman who regularly takes transit to be her guide. (If you involve yourself at all in this situation, that is. Choosing to disengage is also an option).
Source; I am a white cis lady and regular bus rider. Being a calm, competent model of bus use is how I got an openly racist white female classmate to ride with me to a required school thing. I truly believe that I have a moral imperative as a white woman to ride buses when it is at all feasible, in order to model that people “like me” are regular public transit users.
posted by ActionPopulated at 10:26 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm dismayed at the commentsers viewing this young woman as spoiled or immature.
This sounds like anxiety to me, and totally rational for all the many reasons mentioned already not least of which simply nor knowing how the system works or what the experience will be like.
The thing about overcoming anxiety is that while you have to push past your comfort zone a bit, if you go too far into discomfort the anxiety is reinforced.
If she suffers from chronic pain, her margin of error will be very narrow, and even things like uncertainty about how long the trip will be, if she's risking being late for work etc, can tip her over into the red zone.
Having someone accompany her the first few times is a great idea.
Finding other ways for her to reduce her stress the rest of the time will help even more.
She's having meltdowns because she (rightly) feels that she's losing autonomy and being forced out of her safe routine. Nothing exacerbates anxiety as much as losing control.
These are not the willful tantrums of a spoiled child, they are the result of an overwhelmed adult.
Anything you can do to show her that you consider her to be an adult with the right to control her own situation, will help.
posted by Zumbador at 10:27 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
This sounds like anxiety to me, and totally rational for all the many reasons mentioned already not least of which simply nor knowing how the system works or what the experience will be like.
The thing about overcoming anxiety is that while you have to push past your comfort zone a bit, if you go too far into discomfort the anxiety is reinforced.
If she suffers from chronic pain, her margin of error will be very narrow, and even things like uncertainty about how long the trip will be, if she's risking being late for work etc, can tip her over into the red zone.
Having someone accompany her the first few times is a great idea.
Finding other ways for her to reduce her stress the rest of the time will help even more.
She's having meltdowns because she (rightly) feels that she's losing autonomy and being forced out of her safe routine. Nothing exacerbates anxiety as much as losing control.
These are not the willful tantrums of a spoiled child, they are the result of an overwhelmed adult.
Anything you can do to show her that you consider her to be an adult with the right to control her own situation, will help.
posted by Zumbador at 10:27 AM on December 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Wanted to chime in with all the others about the limitations of people living with chronic pain.
This may seem ridiculous to you, but her daily routine is likely built around minimizing pain and maximizing productivity. People who don't have it, don't get it - when you have chronic pain, it is in the forefront of your mind all day, every day. Every act, no matter how small it might seem to you, is piled onto another one and another one, and eventually you know it's going to topple over on top of you.
Just for reference, imagine you have three knives sticking out of various parts of you at all times, and somebody casually says to you, "Hey, I have an idea - you're handling those three knives so well, how about we jam in another one?"
I've experienced bus rides and train rides in so much excruciating pain I was crying at the end of them, and too stiff to move for hours after. Please, please don't minimize this or treat it as something she should "just be able to handle." If she's in regular PT for chronic pain, you don't know her life, and you shouldn't judge the choices she makes to manage her condition.
posted by invincible summer at 10:27 AM on December 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
This may seem ridiculous to you, but her daily routine is likely built around minimizing pain and maximizing productivity. People who don't have it, don't get it - when you have chronic pain, it is in the forefront of your mind all day, every day. Every act, no matter how small it might seem to you, is piled onto another one and another one, and eventually you know it's going to topple over on top of you.
Just for reference, imagine you have three knives sticking out of various parts of you at all times, and somebody casually says to you, "Hey, I have an idea - you're handling those three knives so well, how about we jam in another one?"
I've experienced bus rides and train rides in so much excruciating pain I was crying at the end of them, and too stiff to move for hours after. Please, please don't minimize this or treat it as something she should "just be able to handle." If she's in regular PT for chronic pain, you don't know her life, and you shouldn't judge the choices she makes to manage her condition.
posted by invincible summer at 10:27 AM on December 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
I am chiming back in to agree with those that noted the bus is not particularly awesome. I've taken the subway and/or bus daily for over twenty years. That is my choice, not borne out of necessity, and it can still be frustrating for all of the reasons described by others- delays, weather, crowding, other passengers and yes, threats to safety.
Many people deal with those issues, but it is important to understand that many people will not want to deal with them if they have other options.
You can encourage or support a practice run, but it sounds like your relative will probably need to figure out other options.
posted by fies at 10:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Many people deal with those issues, but it is important to understand that many people will not want to deal with them if they have other options.
You can encourage or support a practice run, but it sounds like your relative will probably need to figure out other options.
posted by fies at 10:29 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
People here on Metafilter, and certain segments of the larger population, defend public transportation reflexively, but the truth is that the user experience of riding a public bus is actually pretty lousy, especially in a smallish town that maybe doesn't invest all that much in their system. Outside of big cities, people who can afford cars drive, so the people who ride the bus tend to be lower-SES and/or teenaged, which is not a particularly welcoming environment for a sheltered woman with chronic pain. Not to mention the experience of *waiting for* the bus. It's about to be winter in New England, and if you haven't experienced winter in a medium-sized New England city, it's not the kind of thing where you'd want to stand outside waiting for a bus in. Even if there's a bus stop in front of her house, buses are often late, so if she goes out to the stop when the bus is scheduled to arrive, she could be standing there for twenty minutes before it actually does. Or if she starts taking the lateness into account, she could wait fifteen minutes before going out, in which case she's in danger of missing a bus that runs on time. And the bus stop at her work is probably not right in front of her work; it's probably in front of her work's parking lot, which during winter is going to be icy and/or slushy a lot of the time. It's a lot to ask.
Most people only take the bus when they have no other alternative. I was in that position once, and it sucked. I used to play a game I called "beat the bus". I would start walking along the bus route when the bus was scheduled to be at the stop I got on, and see how long it took for the bus to catch up to me. My record was seven miles, which is like a two-hour walk. My point is that there are a lot of places in the United States where buses simply aren't reliable.
An easier solution would be to teach her to drive her mom's car. It doesn't sound like she needs her own car at this point. Whatever your take on that dynamic, her mom seems willing to drive her when she can. It's just there are times when her mom can't drive. So why can't she take her mom's car? Driving is a pretty useful skill for an adult to have, so even if her mom goes back to driving her around after recovering from surgery, teaching her to drive would still be worthwhile. And teaching someone to drive doesn't take much more effort than teaching them how to ride a bus.
Alternatively, does she not have co-workers who could give her a ride?
posted by kevinbelt at 10:56 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Most people only take the bus when they have no other alternative. I was in that position once, and it sucked. I used to play a game I called "beat the bus". I would start walking along the bus route when the bus was scheduled to be at the stop I got on, and see how long it took for the bus to catch up to me. My record was seven miles, which is like a two-hour walk. My point is that there are a lot of places in the United States where buses simply aren't reliable.
An easier solution would be to teach her to drive her mom's car. It doesn't sound like she needs her own car at this point. Whatever your take on that dynamic, her mom seems willing to drive her when she can. It's just there are times when her mom can't drive. So why can't she take her mom's car? Driving is a pretty useful skill for an adult to have, so even if her mom goes back to driving her around after recovering from surgery, teaching her to drive would still be worthwhile. And teaching someone to drive doesn't take much more effort than teaching them how to ride a bus.
Alternatively, does she not have co-workers who could give her a ride?
posted by kevinbelt at 10:56 AM on December 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
For everyone who keeps suggesting Uber/Lyft/taxi, please realize that since the pandemic, it has been A LOT HARDER to get a taxi or rideshare to show up in a timely manner in many places; what the conditions are, and how much it's going to cost in the OP's local area are going to be local knowledge. (In my non-New England more urban area, a Lyft that would cover the distance I'd expect a local bus to cover in half an hour in New England would probably run $20-$30 on average these days; for reference, my New England transit experience is primarily with the MBTA in metro Boston, and the PVTA in the Pioneer Valley.)
I freely admit that I am absolutely a transit booster, but I need to point out that many, many transit agencies have been having a lot of staffing trouble right now to be able to provide service anywhere *close* to what they promise. At least 50% of the time I take BART these days, there's been a notice about one of the upcoming trains having been cancelled, because staffing issues. It is possible that the bus may not be as reliable as necessary no matter what the schedule says, especially given the likelihood that a service job with its heavy focus on coverage is going to penalize harshly for even superficial lateness. But the current reliability level of their local bus is info the SIL, brother, or OP will need to figure out elsewhere unless the OP is willing to share more specific location info and other MeFites in that area can chime in with current experiences.
However, I would like to also emphasize to the OP that they are 100% ABSOLUTELY ALLOWED TO HAVE BOUNDARIES and it is not inherently rude or cruel or unfair or unsupportive or anti-family or discriminatory against health issues to do so; please throw Scenario C for yourself right out the window and focus on your tenure track. Plenty of other advice above re dealing with the anxiety possibly being the root of the problem - but you do not have to be the primary channel for this, even if it might only be for "a few weeks" (at the busiest time of year for so many people).
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:56 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I freely admit that I am absolutely a transit booster, but I need to point out that many, many transit agencies have been having a lot of staffing trouble right now to be able to provide service anywhere *close* to what they promise. At least 50% of the time I take BART these days, there's been a notice about one of the upcoming trains having been cancelled, because staffing issues. It is possible that the bus may not be as reliable as necessary no matter what the schedule says, especially given the likelihood that a service job with its heavy focus on coverage is going to penalize harshly for even superficial lateness. But the current reliability level of their local bus is info the SIL, brother, or OP will need to figure out elsewhere unless the OP is willing to share more specific location info and other MeFites in that area can chime in with current experiences.
However, I would like to also emphasize to the OP that they are 100% ABSOLUTELY ALLOWED TO HAVE BOUNDARIES and it is not inherently rude or cruel or unfair or unsupportive or anti-family or discriminatory against health issues to do so; please throw Scenario C for yourself right out the window and focus on your tenure track. Plenty of other advice above re dealing with the anxiety possibly being the root of the problem - but you do not have to be the primary channel for this, even if it might only be for "a few weeks" (at the busiest time of year for so many people).
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:56 AM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Buses & trains are a nightmare if you have social anxiety. I can use them but there is a very good chance I will burst into tears when I get safely to the other side. It's not just all the people looking at you it's the not being able to control the social interactions if someone sits next to you or you get a weirdo on who hassles you it takes huge amounts of energy for me to cope with it. I can do it, but it is exhausting for me mentally. I do not have a chronic painful condition on top of that which limits the number of "spoons" I have in a day. Sure she may be able to move around at work but that could well be because she manages her energy and saves it for work and travelling by bus would be too much of a debit to her energy pool.
Now having said that she may well just be someone that handles change badly and that on top of worrying about her mum is stressing her out. Maybe if walked through using a bus a few times would feel much more capable of taking one. She may also want to look into local government projects to help fund taxis for disabled people. My legally blind mother used to be able to take a taxi places for only a couple of dollars, including trips to another town for doctors visits, there may well be a program that would help her fun taxis in a similar manner.
posted by wwax at 10:58 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Now having said that she may well just be someone that handles change badly and that on top of worrying about her mum is stressing her out. Maybe if walked through using a bus a few times would feel much more capable of taking one. She may also want to look into local government projects to help fund taxis for disabled people. My legally blind mother used to be able to take a taxi places for only a couple of dollars, including trips to another town for doctors visits, there may well be a program that would help her fun taxis in a similar manner.
posted by wwax at 10:58 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I find a lot of people who are hesitant to take public transit are very much uncomfortable with the unknowns of it, like the specifics of how to pay their fare, how you request a stop, that kind of thing; it definitely is a specific skillset that frightens some people, which I get . They don't do it because it makes them feel foolish - even as a perfectly happy bus-taker in my home cities, I typically don't take the bus when I travel because of those exact unknowns (though transit on a track, I absolutely do; those you can do at your own speed without being observed, while a bus feels like you're on a stage being observed by everyone).
I think agree with others that one of you taking practice rides with your sister-in-law probably will help and that you can maybe ease her into comfort with it by giving her rides sometimes and by setting boundaries, but only if your mother-in-law can also enforce those boundaries without additional labour on her part.
posted by urbanlenny at 11:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think agree with others that one of you taking practice rides with your sister-in-law probably will help and that you can maybe ease her into comfort with it by giving her rides sometimes and by setting boundaries, but only if your mother-in-law can also enforce those boundaries without additional labour on her part.
posted by urbanlenny at 11:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's a few weeks? Okay, so she takes a three week break from PT/other non-work appointments. For work, you take her to her workplace before you go to yours. It may be hours early; she can either coordinate with her work to stay in a break room or something, or find a coffee shop/etc. to hang out in until her work starts. You pick her up after you're done with work--again, may require a lot of waiting around from her, but that's the trade-off of having other people drive you around.
This is what I always did as someone with chronic pain and sensory sensitivities that made taking the bus a huge ordeal, and relied on other people to drive me to work. I spent plenty of time using and getting to understand the bus system and it never became something that was viable for me to do to get to work because of the excessive mental and physical drain that was absolutely worse for me than it would be for your average able-bodied person, for a host of invisible reasons. It was still not great to wait around places for hours to get rides that worked with other people's schedules, but it was much more tolerable to do that than take the bus. I suspect your sister may feel the same, if only because she's almost certainly familiar with the waiting-for-your-ride game in a way she's not with the bus.
If your main objection is interfering with work, then just take her according to your schedule and let her handle killing the hours before or after work if need be. If your objection is to driving her at all that's a different question, but you were very focused on the importance of your work so I'm taking that as the central problem.
posted by brook horse at 11:26 AM on December 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
This is what I always did as someone with chronic pain and sensory sensitivities that made taking the bus a huge ordeal, and relied on other people to drive me to work. I spent plenty of time using and getting to understand the bus system and it never became something that was viable for me to do to get to work because of the excessive mental and physical drain that was absolutely worse for me than it would be for your average able-bodied person, for a host of invisible reasons. It was still not great to wait around places for hours to get rides that worked with other people's schedules, but it was much more tolerable to do that than take the bus. I suspect your sister may feel the same, if only because she's almost certainly familiar with the waiting-for-your-ride game in a way she's not with the bus.
If your main objection is interfering with work, then just take her according to your schedule and let her handle killing the hours before or after work if need be. If your objection is to driving her at all that's a different question, but you were very focused on the importance of your work so I'm taking that as the central problem.
posted by brook horse at 11:26 AM on December 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
20 years old is still pretty much just a kid. Help out whenever you can but otherwise learning how to take the bus and learning how to drive are two skills she will need to learn anyway so it may as well be now. She'll have to figure out which one she wants to learn first.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:42 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:42 AM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
"the reason she must take the bus, while you may drive your own automobile, is because you have options and abilities and money that she doesn't."
I mean...if her mom is usually driving her places, it sounds like she has access to a car. OP doesn't get into details but it sounds like the sister-in-law chooses not to learn to drive, not that she is without access to a car and powerless to do anything about it.
Anyway, if your sister-in-law cannot cope with taking the bus, I would recommend having her evaluated for paratransit options (if available). A friend of mine didn't take public transportation for years because of anxiety issues, she used paratransit instead and found it to be a pretty ok workaround. It's not as nice as having someone chauffer you everywhere, but she could get where she needed to go. I strongly caution you against offering to give her rides.
FWIW, I went to school in a touristy New England college town, and the bus was heavily utilized by college students. I don't think we have enough to go on here to assume that the bus option is a dangerous one.
posted by cakelite at 11:48 AM on December 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I mean...if her mom is usually driving her places, it sounds like she has access to a car. OP doesn't get into details but it sounds like the sister-in-law chooses not to learn to drive, not that she is without access to a car and powerless to do anything about it.
Anyway, if your sister-in-law cannot cope with taking the bus, I would recommend having her evaluated for paratransit options (if available). A friend of mine didn't take public transportation for years because of anxiety issues, she used paratransit instead and found it to be a pretty ok workaround. It's not as nice as having someone chauffer you everywhere, but she could get where she needed to go. I strongly caution you against offering to give her rides.
FWIW, I went to school in a touristy New England college town, and the bus was heavily utilized by college students. I don't think we have enough to go on here to assume that the bus option is a dangerous one.
posted by cakelite at 11:48 AM on December 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Data point--four close people in my life are like Sheldon Cooper when it comes to driving: it's overwhelming, they hate it, it's too much going on, it aggravates their already existing anxiety, they can't process all the things flying at them, it's horrible for them. Solution? They don't do it, and they arrange their lives around the bus schedules. They sometimes ask for rides, but only if it's convenient for the other person or an emergency. They do not trouble others with their aversion.
(In two of these cases, I have seen their SOs bully them into learning how to drive. It did not work.)
posted by Melismata at 11:50 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
(In two of these cases, I have seen their SOs bully them into learning how to drive. It did not work.)
posted by Melismata at 11:50 AM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Anything you can do to show her that you consider her to be an adult with the right to control her own situation, will help.
An adult with the right to control her own situation would take responsibility for figuring out how to get to work on her own, wouldn't she? If she doesn't want to take the bus (fair enough), then she figures out an alternate means of travel--whether that be hitching a ride with B or B's partner and killing loads of time before/after work, as brook horse suggested, or turning to mutual aid as others have suggested (which does seem somewhat optimistic to me, but we don't know where they are), or getting rides with coworkers, or...whatever works better for her. I don't think anyone thinks she should get on the bus because getting on the bus will make a man out of her or will be good therapy or buses are awesome. It's just that she has these needs and she needs to meet them, and, yeah, it is immature for a twenty-year-old not even to be taking the steps to find out what she can do to get things done, rather than trying to get other autonomous adults, who aren't even her parents, to figure out what her options are, rejecting the ones she doesn't like, and expecting those autonomous adults to then spend their time driving her around instead. OP isn't responsible for making her grow up, but her not having done so does not impose extra obligations on OP, either, who is entitled to draw a boundary around work.
If she is sufficiently mentally ill that she is incapable of arranging her own transport to work under the existing circumstances (not stated by the OP, but let's say she is), then short-term driving her around might be necessary, but she also needs to get into treatment or therapy as soon as possible. Her mom is not going to be able to drive her around forever.
posted by praemunire at 11:55 AM on December 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
An adult with the right to control her own situation would take responsibility for figuring out how to get to work on her own, wouldn't she? If she doesn't want to take the bus (fair enough), then she figures out an alternate means of travel--whether that be hitching a ride with B or B's partner and killing loads of time before/after work, as brook horse suggested, or turning to mutual aid as others have suggested (which does seem somewhat optimistic to me, but we don't know where they are), or getting rides with coworkers, or...whatever works better for her. I don't think anyone thinks she should get on the bus because getting on the bus will make a man out of her or will be good therapy or buses are awesome. It's just that she has these needs and she needs to meet them, and, yeah, it is immature for a twenty-year-old not even to be taking the steps to find out what she can do to get things done, rather than trying to get other autonomous adults, who aren't even her parents, to figure out what her options are, rejecting the ones she doesn't like, and expecting those autonomous adults to then spend their time driving her around instead. OP isn't responsible for making her grow up, but her not having done so does not impose extra obligations on OP, either, who is entitled to draw a boundary around work.
If she is sufficiently mentally ill that she is incapable of arranging her own transport to work under the existing circumstances (not stated by the OP, but let's say she is), then short-term driving her around might be necessary, but she also needs to get into treatment or therapy as soon as possible. Her mom is not going to be able to drive her around forever.
posted by praemunire at 11:55 AM on December 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
Does your sister have an anxiety disorder? This is a difficult thing to ask, because she could be anxious for the perfectly reasonable and practical and non-pathological reason that she has an invisible disability that means she doesn't have enough spoons to take the bus. Or, she could be anxious because of that, and also because she's at risk of being sexually harassed on the bus. Someone being scared of something you can't see doesn't mean they're not scared of something real. That's one of the reasons physically disabled people, especially women, have a history of being misdiagnosed with mental illness - as an excuse, which is in itself ableist, to not take their concerns seriously. But, she could also have an anxiety disorder on top of her chronic pain, and that would make things extra hard for her, especially if she doesn't have any resources like therapy or meds for managing her anxiety.
If she does have an anxiety disorder - which she might not, I'm on the Internet and I can't tell - that would change the ideal approach. For instance, forcing her to take the bus might be traumatizing. It might reinforce her anxiety. It might give her daily panic attacks. But maybe a gentler,but non-infantalizing approach would work better. Maybe exposure therapy would help, or going slow and emphasizing, really emphasizing, with her fears, and holding her hand, would make this an easier experience for her. And ideally, all of this would be undertaken without time pressure or economic incentives, and you'd have a therapist to help you. But maybe you have to hack something together anyway.
If she doesn't have an anxiety disorder? Well, she still have chronic pain, and it still might be traumatizing, and you should still be gentle. Ask her if there's anything that might help, like you riding the bus with her a few times, or her carrying mace just in case, or her using a cane or wheelchair to help manage her pain. This stuff is really awful and unfair, and she shouldn't have to do it, but she really doesn't have another good option.
Chronic pain is a disability. Anxiety, if she has it, is also a disability. Riding the bus might put your sister in severe pain, both mentally and physically. Pushing past your limits isn't always a good thing. Those limits are there for a reason.
Economically, this may be your family's best option. But that says something really messed up about our society, and in an ideal world, this wouldn't be happening. Maybe your sister wouldn't have to work, or she'd have access to additional resources to help her manage her pain, or there'd be enough money to pay someone to drive her. Our ableist world's approach to this isn't right or okay, and bootstrappery rigidity isn't the right response to this ableism. Not everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps, and that needs to be okay. Trust your sister when she says what she isn't capable of.
And really do look into other options. Are there people in your community who could share the labor of driving your sister around, just for a few weeks? Would the cost of taxi fare exceed the cost of your sister losing her job? If it doesn't, but you still can't afford it, could you crowdfund it? Are there accessible transportation options that your sister is eligible for?
And again - I'm sorry. This isn't fair to any of you. And I know it seems silly to you, because you can take the bus and be perfectly fine, and it's a system that works really well for you. But you are not your sister. You're not in her body or her mind.
Seconding everything nebulawindphone has said.
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 12:07 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
If she does have an anxiety disorder - which she might not, I'm on the Internet and I can't tell - that would change the ideal approach. For instance, forcing her to take the bus might be traumatizing. It might reinforce her anxiety. It might give her daily panic attacks. But maybe a gentler,but non-infantalizing approach would work better. Maybe exposure therapy would help, or going slow and emphasizing, really emphasizing, with her fears, and holding her hand, would make this an easier experience for her. And ideally, all of this would be undertaken without time pressure or economic incentives, and you'd have a therapist to help you. But maybe you have to hack something together anyway.
If she doesn't have an anxiety disorder? Well, she still have chronic pain, and it still might be traumatizing, and you should still be gentle. Ask her if there's anything that might help, like you riding the bus with her a few times, or her carrying mace just in case, or her using a cane or wheelchair to help manage her pain. This stuff is really awful and unfair, and she shouldn't have to do it, but she really doesn't have another good option.
Chronic pain is a disability. Anxiety, if she has it, is also a disability. Riding the bus might put your sister in severe pain, both mentally and physically. Pushing past your limits isn't always a good thing. Those limits are there for a reason.
Economically, this may be your family's best option. But that says something really messed up about our society, and in an ideal world, this wouldn't be happening. Maybe your sister wouldn't have to work, or she'd have access to additional resources to help her manage her pain, or there'd be enough money to pay someone to drive her. Our ableist world's approach to this isn't right or okay, and bootstrappery rigidity isn't the right response to this ableism. Not everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps, and that needs to be okay. Trust your sister when she says what she isn't capable of.
And really do look into other options. Are there people in your community who could share the labor of driving your sister around, just for a few weeks? Would the cost of taxi fare exceed the cost of your sister losing her job? If it doesn't, but you still can't afford it, could you crowdfund it? Are there accessible transportation options that your sister is eligible for?
And again - I'm sorry. This isn't fair to any of you. And I know it seems silly to you, because you can take the bus and be perfectly fine, and it's a system that works really well for you. But you are not your sister. You're not in her body or her mind.
Seconding everything nebulawindphone has said.
posted by spiderbeforesunset at 12:07 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm afraid that I see one realistic outcome here, and it is that your mother-in-law will continue to surreptitiously drive. Whatever else you do, I'd prepare for this; I'd assume it's happening; and to be honest I'd focus primarily on your plan for what happens if your MIL compromises her health or gets some kind of DUI or crashes the car.
I don't think you're going to resolve your SIL's issues with the bus in the required timeframe. She's clearly getting very dysregulated every time it's even brought up, and I just don't see that going well. Does she need help addressing her issues with anxiety/intractability/whatever this is? Yeah, I think so. Is that going to happen within, like, days, and magically resolve this driving situation? No. It is not.
It sucks, but honestly your MIL is (I assume) an adult with decision-making capacity, and if she wants to do dangerous things and alternatives are being summarily rejected, I would consider washing your hands of it, and and saying a little prayer every morning, and hoping you're not going to have to be proven horribly right in this situation.
No, this isn't the "right" thing to have happen, but I'm just telling you, having lived in an emotionally difficult family my whole life, it's the realistic outcome. Good luck, and I'm sorry you're in this position.
posted by desert outpost at 12:08 PM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't think you're going to resolve your SIL's issues with the bus in the required timeframe. She's clearly getting very dysregulated every time it's even brought up, and I just don't see that going well. Does she need help addressing her issues with anxiety/intractability/whatever this is? Yeah, I think so. Is that going to happen within, like, days, and magically resolve this driving situation? No. It is not.
It sucks, but honestly your MIL is (I assume) an adult with decision-making capacity, and if she wants to do dangerous things and alternatives are being summarily rejected, I would consider washing your hands of it, and and saying a little prayer every morning, and hoping you're not going to have to be proven horribly right in this situation.
No, this isn't the "right" thing to have happen, but I'm just telling you, having lived in an emotionally difficult family my whole life, it's the realistic outcome. Good luck, and I'm sorry you're in this position.
posted by desert outpost at 12:08 PM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
She needs to learn how to drive.
posted by tristeza at 12:10 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 12:10 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
One note, it's actually not at all unreasonable for a disabled adult to live their life in such a way that they rely on other adults to chauffeur them around. Some people are not able to drive or use public transit. If they're able to, they find a mutually beneficial relationship where they receive transportation and the other person receives some other kind of support (household labor, financial support, etc.). In my situation, I work full-time in my knowledge job and financially support my partner, who is perfectly happy to drive me wherever I need to go in return for the freedom of only needing to work part-time in a low-stress job. Not everyone can do that, but it sounds like your sister had a situation that worked for her and your mother most of the time.
People in this situation do need to have an alternate for when their regular transport is unavailable. However, it's not at all weird that a 20 year old doesn't have a plan for that situation yet; most people I knew at that age would have similarly freaked out if their car broke down and was in the shop for weeks. Helping her figure that out within the context of her limitations would be kind, but is not required.
In my situation, I maintain positive relationships with other driving adults who I am happy to offer a variety of services in trade for transportation in a pinch. I wonder if you would be less bothered by this idea if she were able to offer something in return, be that money, help around the house, help with paperwork or phone calls (I have paid people back for rides by spending a few hours navigating insurance, medical claims, applications, etc. for them which they are always IMMENSELY grateful for), or whatever she is able to do. I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask her to contribute something for you going out of your way, separate from the question of "is it justifiable for her to not take the bus."
posted by brook horse at 12:13 PM on December 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
People in this situation do need to have an alternate for when their regular transport is unavailable. However, it's not at all weird that a 20 year old doesn't have a plan for that situation yet; most people I knew at that age would have similarly freaked out if their car broke down and was in the shop for weeks. Helping her figure that out within the context of her limitations would be kind, but is not required.
In my situation, I maintain positive relationships with other driving adults who I am happy to offer a variety of services in trade for transportation in a pinch. I wonder if you would be less bothered by this idea if she were able to offer something in return, be that money, help around the house, help with paperwork or phone calls (I have paid people back for rides by spending a few hours navigating insurance, medical claims, applications, etc. for them which they are always IMMENSELY grateful for), or whatever she is able to do. I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask her to contribute something for you going out of your way, separate from the question of "is it justifiable for her to not take the bus."
posted by brook horse at 12:13 PM on December 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
Anecdata from me too: I have a relative that never learned to drive even though she lives in sprawlly California. At least the weather is nice. She begs rides from her one friend. She hates her husband because he occasionally refuses to be her constant chauffeur, and over-mothers her nearly 40 year old son to take care of her because no one else will. She's past 60 years old and has lived about 40 years of miserable, shut in life. So drive/bus/walk, but do it now because this is the future. Figure out a way to get your relative mobile with out family.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:23 PM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:23 PM on December 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
It took me forever to learn how to drive because I was an idiot and very, very scared at it. I don't think the SIL is going to learn to drive in the next few weeks, even if she desperately wanted to, which I would bet she does not. Driving is difficult and I would bet the disability comes up in the conversation if you mention it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:26 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:26 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
The bus may look good on paper, but do you (OP) know anyone who relies on the bus for work transport? You mention a touristy New England town - I’ve ridden the bus too many times in Burlington, VT and Portland ME and it sucked in both cities. Completely unreliable. “Scary” people, especially for a 20 year old.
posted by pintapicasso at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pintapicasso at 12:37 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Taxis and Uber are awesome. “Lend” her a taxi budget til her mom can drive her again. Problem solved and you still get to make tenure.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:39 PM on December 7, 2022
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:39 PM on December 7, 2022
Ugh.
You really need to choose this based on the line you AND your partner are willing to draw and hold.
Today, that might mean declining to her demand for a driver.
Tomorrow, it might mean dealing with your MIL's medical decline because she refused to follow doctor's orders post surgery.
Next week, it might be refusing to allow either of them to guilt you for the consequences of THEIR actions.
Next month, it might be declining to pay their rent when they chose not to work.
A year from now, it might be refusing to let them move in with you when they lose their place.
Sometime later on, it'll be taking over the "responsibility" of providing for an adult who was infantilized, enabled, and used weaponized incompetence to not have to be responsible for themselves.
Some of this is going to depend on how invested your partner is in this toxic pattern. Will they hold the line with you, or pressure you to also enable?
This seems simple right now, but the long-term implications don't pan out well.
As always, the sooner one stops the enabling, the better.
If the sister actually has anxiety issues - well, the "pull up big girl panties" response is to suggest that she seek therapy so she can move forward as a competent adult who is willing to use available transportation or work to procure her own.
Bet she won't want to do that, either. And will try to make people drive her there, if someone manages to convince her to. And then it'll still be everyone else's problem, not hers.
But the thing is - YOU didn't raise her that way.
She isn't YOUR problem.
Her wants shouldn't risk YOUR job security.
If your partner suggests you do it - or tries to guilt you into it - well, your partner is the one invested in that toxicity, NOT YOU. Let partner figure it out.
posted by stormyteal at 1:38 PM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
You really need to choose this based on the line you AND your partner are willing to draw and hold.
Today, that might mean declining to her demand for a driver.
Tomorrow, it might mean dealing with your MIL's medical decline because she refused to follow doctor's orders post surgery.
Next week, it might be refusing to allow either of them to guilt you for the consequences of THEIR actions.
Next month, it might be declining to pay their rent when they chose not to work.
A year from now, it might be refusing to let them move in with you when they lose their place.
Sometime later on, it'll be taking over the "responsibility" of providing for an adult who was infantilized, enabled, and used weaponized incompetence to not have to be responsible for themselves.
Some of this is going to depend on how invested your partner is in this toxic pattern. Will they hold the line with you, or pressure you to also enable?
This seems simple right now, but the long-term implications don't pan out well.
As always, the sooner one stops the enabling, the better.
If the sister actually has anxiety issues - well, the "pull up big girl panties" response is to suggest that she seek therapy so she can move forward as a competent adult who is willing to use available transportation or work to procure her own.
Bet she won't want to do that, either. And will try to make people drive her there, if someone manages to convince her to. And then it'll still be everyone else's problem, not hers.
But the thing is - YOU didn't raise her that way.
She isn't YOUR problem.
Her wants shouldn't risk YOUR job security.
If your partner suggests you do it - or tries to guilt you into it - well, your partner is the one invested in that toxicity, NOT YOU. Let partner figure it out.
posted by stormyteal at 1:38 PM on December 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Long-term option -- the work/living quarters arrangement only works well for the SIL if her mother can provide the rides back and forth.
In the future, she needs to put a plan together where either she moves closer to the job (hello, roommates) or she gets a job close enough to home that she can find reliable transportation without imposing on others.
Asking you and her brother to take over her travel arrangements is not acceptable.
Dropping her off on the way to your office and/or picking her up after your work day is a temporary option, and only if the impact on your jobs is minimal.
Her mother is aging out of driving her around. This is the SIL's wake-up call to be more independent.
What are her plans for taking a bigger role in daily living? She doesn't have to drive in order to get groceries, go shopping, go to therapy and doctor sessions, etc. But she does need reliable transportation options.
How does she envision her life if/when her mother is unable to drive?
It may be easier for your spouse to parent his mom and sibling, but it is probably not the best solution (barring any issues that make it impossible for the SIL to step up her own support to add to his efforts).
posted by TrishaU at 1:40 PM on December 7, 2022
In the future, she needs to put a plan together where either she moves closer to the job (hello, roommates) or she gets a job close enough to home that she can find reliable transportation without imposing on others.
Asking you and her brother to take over her travel arrangements is not acceptable.
Dropping her off on the way to your office and/or picking her up after your work day is a temporary option, and only if the impact on your jobs is minimal.
Her mother is aging out of driving her around. This is the SIL's wake-up call to be more independent.
What are her plans for taking a bigger role in daily living? She doesn't have to drive in order to get groceries, go shopping, go to therapy and doctor sessions, etc. But she does need reliable transportation options.
How does she envision her life if/when her mother is unable to drive?
It may be easier for your spouse to parent his mom and sibling, but it is probably not the best solution (barring any issues that make it impossible for the SIL to step up her own support to add to his efforts).
posted by TrishaU at 1:40 PM on December 7, 2022
Maybe medication for chronic pain management means your sister-in-law is not a great candidate for being a safe driver?
(Maybe untreated anxiety is a factor in learning to drive.)
Is your mother-in-law's recovery from her elective, planned surgery more complicated than anticipated?
If things are going according to schedule, what was their original plan for getting SIL to work or p/t in the absence of her regular ride?
Was that plan shared with your spouse and/or you?
If MIL's post-op needs are unexpected and thus delaying her return to driving duties, it's one thing -- then it's a family crisis; pull together for the next few weeks while making firm plans to help both of them be more independent. HOWEVER if they knew in advance, and just assumed you'd be the temporary chauffeur because your schedule appears more flexible, that's a problem.
In general: you're a newlywed, these are deeply enmeshed dynamics, and your spouse should take point. But have good boundaries, as you're creating the template for dealing with such crises (or assumptions) in the family.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:38 PM on December 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
(Maybe untreated anxiety is a factor in learning to drive.)
Is your mother-in-law's recovery from her elective, planned surgery more complicated than anticipated?
If things are going according to schedule, what was their original plan for getting SIL to work or p/t in the absence of her regular ride?
Was that plan shared with your spouse and/or you?
If MIL's post-op needs are unexpected and thus delaying her return to driving duties, it's one thing -- then it's a family crisis; pull together for the next few weeks while making firm plans to help both of them be more independent. HOWEVER if they knew in advance, and just assumed you'd be the temporary chauffeur because your schedule appears more flexible, that's a problem.
In general: you're a newlywed, these are deeply enmeshed dynamics, and your spouse should take point. But have good boundaries, as you're creating the template for dealing with such crises (or assumptions) in the family.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:38 PM on December 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
Your sister-in-law doesn't "owe" anyone an explanation for why she finds taking the bus unsuitable. However, you and your husband don't "owe" it to this person to offer rides during your workday either. She is free to take you up on your offer... or not. You and your husband would happy to help brain storm possible solutions upon request.
posted by oceano at 3:11 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by oceano at 3:11 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I caught the bus to work every day for years with chronic pain, and I can tell you from first hand experience that buses can be TERRIBLE for chronic pain:
while you are waiting for the bus, you are at a bus stop with no seating or uncomfortable seating, often in a cold wind (cold aggravates muscles/joint pain);
when you get on the bus, the bus driver often starts accelerating away from the kerb quickly before you get a chance to sit down, which means that you have to grab on to a pole and your hands/wrists/shoulder get jerked and sometimes your lower back gets wrenched;
if the bus is crowded, you may not get a seat, which means your body gets jerked around the whole bus ride;
other passengers or their backpacks may bump into you, hard;
buses often accelerate and brake far more jerkily/roughly/suddenly than a car does, so you often get jerked around for the whole bus ride.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:06 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
while you are waiting for the bus, you are at a bus stop with no seating or uncomfortable seating, often in a cold wind (cold aggravates muscles/joint pain);
when you get on the bus, the bus driver often starts accelerating away from the kerb quickly before you get a chance to sit down, which means that you have to grab on to a pole and your hands/wrists/shoulder get jerked and sometimes your lower back gets wrenched;
if the bus is crowded, you may not get a seat, which means your body gets jerked around the whole bus ride;
other passengers or their backpacks may bump into you, hard;
buses often accelerate and brake far more jerkily/roughly/suddenly than a car does, so you often get jerked around for the whole bus ride.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:06 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm with stormyteal on this one. Why be held hostage by someone's infantile reactions to normal adult challenges. If they can run you on this one, what's next? Holding their breath until they collapse?
I live in a small town where the bus system is excellent however. I would love to never set foot in a car again. Let a professional do the driving, I'll hang out and relax thank you very much. Helps that's it's free for me at my age also.
posted by diode at 5:09 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I live in a small town where the bus system is excellent however. I would love to never set foot in a car again. Let a professional do the driving, I'll hang out and relax thank you very much. Helps that's it's free for me at my age also.
posted by diode at 5:09 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you’re not willing do deal with the “scary” bus at age 20, that is an attitude that’s going to last you a long time. 20 is not that young (though with a toxic, enabling family it is much younger than it sounds).
I’ve been in a very similar situation with an entire family who also looked at me like an asshole when I suggested the paratransit option. Because it was scary, dirty, etc.? No, mostly because “welfare” folks take it. Meanwhile, I was very much living in a larger city and taking the bus regularly. I guess my relative cultural capital made it a less threatening option for me.
Yeah, she will throw fits because either they work or she hasn’t learned yet that they won’t. It’s true that you shouldn’t fool yourself that taking the bus in the winter in small town New England is a glamorous or particularly desirable lifestyle, but hey, that’s the motivation to learn to drive, her her own car, or find a more manageable life situation. No, it’s not easy, but that’s life.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:09 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’ve been in a very similar situation with an entire family who also looked at me like an asshole when I suggested the paratransit option. Because it was scary, dirty, etc.? No, mostly because “welfare” folks take it. Meanwhile, I was very much living in a larger city and taking the bus regularly. I guess my relative cultural capital made it a less threatening option for me.
Yeah, she will throw fits because either they work or she hasn’t learned yet that they won’t. It’s true that you shouldn’t fool yourself that taking the bus in the winter in small town New England is a glamorous or particularly desirable lifestyle, but hey, that’s the motivation to learn to drive, her her own car, or find a more manageable life situation. No, it’s not easy, but that’s life.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:09 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I wonder if her strong reaction has anything to do with some transit related trauma in her past? I know more than one person who was bullied/beaten/harassed daily on the school bus, for example.
And yeah, daily round trip commutes on the bus are a whole ‘nother ball game than occasional bus trips when you feel like it when there isn’t a time crunch. There really truly are stressful events and dangerous people on transit.
I agree the solution is not to try to sell her on it but just be matter of fact about what you can/can’t do. Some dry runs are a great idea; I’ve done that as an adult and I’m not especially infantile etc.
posted by kapers at 8:52 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
And yeah, daily round trip commutes on the bus are a whole ‘nother ball game than occasional bus trips when you feel like it when there isn’t a time crunch. There really truly are stressful events and dangerous people on transit.
I agree the solution is not to try to sell her on it but just be matter of fact about what you can/can’t do. Some dry runs are a great idea; I’ve done that as an adult and I’m not especially infantile etc.
posted by kapers at 8:52 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Maybe it’s the waiting at stops that’s a block for her—that always sucked, I have no fond memories of waiting on the side of a busy road with no sidewalk in all weather at 20 being approached by men praying the fucking bus would come on time.
posted by kapers at 8:55 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kapers at 8:55 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a disabled woman with chronic pain who has been subject to countless incidents of sexual assault and violence on public transit- I understand her reservations. I'd have them myself. It's incredibly vulnerable to be disabled in public and others can take advantage of that with little you can do to prevent or mitigate harm to yourself.
I'd empathize with her feelings and not dismiss them. That doesn't mean you have to do what she would like- simply that you listen and validate her concerns. They are real to her and may be deeper than you think.
Just because her feelings are valid, it doesn't mean that you are obligated to act. You could help her learn to drive or get access to driving lessons if she does not know how. You could give her the paratransit info. You could offer to ride the bus a few times for practice, or you could help her learn and prepare herself in defense.
Or you could do nothing more than simply say, "that sounds difficult."
posted by shesaysgo at 1:11 AM on December 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'd empathize with her feelings and not dismiss them. That doesn't mean you have to do what she would like- simply that you listen and validate her concerns. They are real to her and may be deeper than you think.
Just because her feelings are valid, it doesn't mean that you are obligated to act. You could help her learn to drive or get access to driving lessons if she does not know how. You could give her the paratransit info. You could offer to ride the bus a few times for practice, or you could help her learn and prepare herself in defense.
Or you could do nothing more than simply say, "that sounds difficult."
posted by shesaysgo at 1:11 AM on December 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Is there any reason the PT appointments can't be re-scheduled so that they're not in the middle of the day? Every single PT I've gone to (and there have been too many to count) has had evening and weekend appointments.
Even in the event that the appointments can't be moved, SIL may be going for modalities (heating pads/ice, etc.) and will just have to postpone for a few weeks. A really good oversized heating pad can be had for less than $50. I got mine from Costco.
And, out of curiosity, since your MIL's surgery was elective, was this conundrum not considered and discussed ahead of time?
posted by dancinglamb at 4:20 AM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even in the event that the appointments can't be moved, SIL may be going for modalities (heating pads/ice, etc.) and will just have to postpone for a few weeks. A really good oversized heating pad can be had for less than $50. I got mine from Costco.
And, out of curiosity, since your MIL's surgery was elective, was this conundrum not considered and discussed ahead of time?
posted by dancinglamb at 4:20 AM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Two thoughts, somewhat contradictory, and yet not:
Recently in my city (small American city with a major research university and very good transit system) I attended a talk given by the president of the university on its future and its goals. One of his goals was stabilizing and then increasing enrollment by students in different demographic categories -- geographic, income, ethnicity, familial levels of education, etc. etc. He related a story about how he had recently asked admissions for the names and phone numbers of one hundred students within the city boundary who had been offered admission to the university, including with financial assistance, but had turned it down and not enrolled. He wanted to know why. He said in his mind he assumed it would be competing offers from other universities in the state, community or tech colleges, or employment offers/needs. Actually what he found out is that the majority of students didn't know how to figure out the parking system at the university and/or the transit system in the city and on the campus and were afraid to ask for help, and/or they had concerns about what they had figured out about parking or transit (cost/convenience/schedules/safety/lack of reliability/and a host of other things).
A second thought is that, yes, a 20-year-old of any ability or lack thereof needs to become comfortable with being part of their own solutions and needs support doing so. Perhaps simply state you can't drive under the terms she needs to be driven again, gently but firmly, and then ask, also firmly but gently: "What other solutions do you see for yourself or would you like to try for yourself? If you can propose alternate solutions, we can try to make them work." She has identified many problems. Taken on face value, she needs to be responsible for, at minimum, thinking on her own about solutions and asking for help with those as needed. That puts her and you all one step forward instead of just spinning wheels.
posted by desert exile at 6:08 AM on December 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Recently in my city (small American city with a major research university and very good transit system) I attended a talk given by the president of the university on its future and its goals. One of his goals was stabilizing and then increasing enrollment by students in different demographic categories -- geographic, income, ethnicity, familial levels of education, etc. etc. He related a story about how he had recently asked admissions for the names and phone numbers of one hundred students within the city boundary who had been offered admission to the university, including with financial assistance, but had turned it down and not enrolled. He wanted to know why. He said in his mind he assumed it would be competing offers from other universities in the state, community or tech colleges, or employment offers/needs. Actually what he found out is that the majority of students didn't know how to figure out the parking system at the university and/or the transit system in the city and on the campus and were afraid to ask for help, and/or they had concerns about what they had figured out about parking or transit (cost/convenience/schedules/safety/lack of reliability/and a host of other things).
A second thought is that, yes, a 20-year-old of any ability or lack thereof needs to become comfortable with being part of their own solutions and needs support doing so. Perhaps simply state you can't drive under the terms she needs to be driven again, gently but firmly, and then ask, also firmly but gently: "What other solutions do you see for yourself or would you like to try for yourself? If you can propose alternate solutions, we can try to make them work." She has identified many problems. Taken on face value, she needs to be responsible for, at minimum, thinking on her own about solutions and asking for help with those as needed. That puts her and you all one step forward instead of just spinning wheels.
posted by desert exile at 6:08 AM on December 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
On a related note, I grew up unable to use public transport as a kid (didn't drive, bus didn't go out to the edge of town) so it was...interesting... to move to my current residence and live without rides/a car. The town bus system here is designed really well so I didn't have much trouble with that, and I didn't have any issues taking the Santa Cruz bus system when I've stayed there, but the county bus line here has been surprise!interesting when I took it for jury duty because for some reason the bus drivers will dump you out in the middle of nowhere and say "another bus will get you" periodically. I also took the county bus with a roommate one night when she had to do it for a homework assignment and of COURSE that's the night where a gang fight almost broke out and cops had to be called. I was told by another bus regular that this wasn't normal, but I'm a walking chaos magnet some days, so..... So I cannot give anyone shit for having reservations on using a bus, because some systems are better than others. Or have an iffier crowd. I'd suggest walking her through how to use one if I thought that sounded like a reasonable option here, but given her high levels of distress + disability, I...won't say that here.
I totally effed up the first time I tried to take Amtrak home, though. They had train tracks in front of and behind the station and too long of a line to ask a question as to which one to use, and trains showed up on both lines at the same time... guess what happened. Then I made the fun discovery that the town bus line shut down at 6 p.m. stranding me halfway back. And this was before cell phones, so my parents had no clue where I was and were pretty pissed. And today at work we had a discussion about international travel and I admit part of why I don't have any burning desire to go to Europe or whatever is that I know I can be a blinking idiot at figuring out transport at times, esp. in other languages since I'm terrible at them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:34 AM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I totally effed up the first time I tried to take Amtrak home, though. They had train tracks in front of and behind the station and too long of a line to ask a question as to which one to use, and trains showed up on both lines at the same time... guess what happened. Then I made the fun discovery that the town bus line shut down at 6 p.m. stranding me halfway back. And this was before cell phones, so my parents had no clue where I was and were pretty pissed. And today at work we had a discussion about international travel and I admit part of why I don't have any burning desire to go to Europe or whatever is that I know I can be a blinking idiot at figuring out transport at times, esp. in other languages since I'm terrible at them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:34 AM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Picture a medium-size touristy New England college town.
I lived in a similar town for a long while and used the public transit system extensively (and visited many others and used the busses there as well). One issue that happens in college towns with good public transit systems is that mentally ill people would move there. Which is great! The combination of low rents compared to cities made it affordable on disability and the small size and transit options meant that people who couldn't or shouldn't be driving could still get around.
The downside was a small percentage of them would ride the bus all day and harass people. Especially women. Particularly women who emoted signs that they'd be easy to target, which SIL sounds like she does.
This isn't to say that I don't think she should learn to ride the bus but she or someone she knows might have had experiences like that.
But overall I agree that it sounds like this is the tip of the iceberg and the MIL has enabled unhealthy behavior in the SIL in an ongoing basis and that a long term plan needs to be created for SIL unless OP and partner are willing to take over as chauffeurs for life or pay for SIL to have an apartment walking distance to work. I'm biased by the fact this sounds a lot like a friend of mine's sister and mother's relationship and he's spending 10s of thousands of dollars a year now that the mother has passed away to keep his sister from becoming homeless because the mother fed the daughter's anxiety issues to the point she's unable to take care of herself in her 40s.
posted by Candleman at 7:04 AM on December 9, 2022
I lived in a similar town for a long while and used the public transit system extensively (and visited many others and used the busses there as well). One issue that happens in college towns with good public transit systems is that mentally ill people would move there. Which is great! The combination of low rents compared to cities made it affordable on disability and the small size and transit options meant that people who couldn't or shouldn't be driving could still get around.
The downside was a small percentage of them would ride the bus all day and harass people. Especially women. Particularly women who emoted signs that they'd be easy to target, which SIL sounds like she does.
This isn't to say that I don't think she should learn to ride the bus but she or someone she knows might have had experiences like that.
But overall I agree that it sounds like this is the tip of the iceberg and the MIL has enabled unhealthy behavior in the SIL in an ongoing basis and that a long term plan needs to be created for SIL unless OP and partner are willing to take over as chauffeurs for life or pay for SIL to have an apartment walking distance to work. I'm biased by the fact this sounds a lot like a friend of mine's sister and mother's relationship and he's spending 10s of thousands of dollars a year now that the mother has passed away to keep his sister from becoming homeless because the mother fed the daughter's anxiety issues to the point she's unable to take care of herself in her 40s.
posted by Candleman at 7:04 AM on December 9, 2022
Jesus Christ, guys, she's 20. It's 2022. That means she graduated high school straight into lockdown. She hasn't had anything like a normal adulthood. She hasn't had the chance to safely learn a lot of the things new adults learn, and she has spent that period probably being completely fucking terrified of getting sick, dying, and possibly killing her loved ones in the process. Of course she has anxiety! Of course she is still living at home and hasn't started to build much of a life for herself! If she didn't learn to drive in high school, there was probably a reason, and it's very likely that reason hasn't changed!
OP, I'm really kinda on the side of folks who think this needs to be much less your circus and your monkeys than it appears you are currently considering it, but at least have some compassion for the extreme trauma young people have gone through the last couple years, and how that has made their experience of this period of their life wildly different than all of us who are even five years older.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:50 AM on December 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
OP, I'm really kinda on the side of folks who think this needs to be much less your circus and your monkeys than it appears you are currently considering it, but at least have some compassion for the extreme trauma young people have gone through the last couple years, and how that has made their experience of this period of their life wildly different than all of us who are even five years older.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:50 AM on December 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
Hi, I'm a 30-something, white, female-presenting person who loves taking the city bus.
I am also someone who overcame anxiety on the level of "unable to do what you, the reader, would probably consider basic adult life tasks". I overcame that anxiety by having someone suggest that I should just do the life tasks and reassure me that it would be easy...haha! just kidding! I overcame it with two years of going to therapy for an hour every week. Unfortunately, you are trying to replace 100 hours of therapy with one conversation.
The only thing you can possibly do here is lay out your conditions. (And yes, it should be your partner, not you, laying out these conditions. Are you by chance a woman and your partner is a man? This could be falling into typical gendered expectations about emotional labor.)
-I cannot drive you to work this week.
-Mom cannot drive you to work this week.
-It sounds like the bus is also not an option for you.
-What would you like to try?
I would also like to add for my fellow MetaFilter commenters: when I was a 20-something with disabling anxiety, nothing made me feel more more furious, upset, belittled, and marginalized than being called a child or being told I was not a "real" adult. Please don't do it.
posted by capricorn at 11:34 AM on December 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am also someone who overcame anxiety on the level of "unable to do what you, the reader, would probably consider basic adult life tasks". I overcame that anxiety by having someone suggest that I should just do the life tasks and reassure me that it would be easy...haha! just kidding! I overcame it with two years of going to therapy for an hour every week. Unfortunately, you are trying to replace 100 hours of therapy with one conversation.
The only thing you can possibly do here is lay out your conditions. (And yes, it should be your partner, not you, laying out these conditions. Are you by chance a woman and your partner is a man? This could be falling into typical gendered expectations about emotional labor.)
-I cannot drive you to work this week.
-Mom cannot drive you to work this week.
-It sounds like the bus is also not an option for you.
-What would you like to try?
I would also like to add for my fellow MetaFilter commenters: when I was a 20-something with disabling anxiety, nothing made me feel more more furious, upset, belittled, and marginalized than being called a child or being told I was not a "real" adult. Please don't do it.
posted by capricorn at 11:34 AM on December 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
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If I were in your shoes, I would make the bus-riding a firm demand with clear consequences, ie you will not pay the extra rent if she quits her job, and you will not permit your mother-in-law to drive before she’s been cleared for it. (You and/or your partner should probably have a private convo with her about not letting her daughter bully her, too.)
posted by music for skeletons at 7:05 AM on December 7, 2022 [60 favorites]