Summer in Europe, but much abbreviated
December 5, 2022 3:48 AM Subscribe
My friends and I (eight women between ages 30-50) are planning a couple of weeks in Europe - we definitely want to see Paris and do a bit of Switzerland, but we're a bit fuzzy on the details/how to structure the trip. We might like to add in Amsterdam as well. Half of us like museums and pottering around the streets, while the other half is snazzier (and may want to shop?). What is a nice probable itinerary that has the hits as well a few offbeat things we can include? Bonus question below the fold.
I might have another week from work and would like to visit another place that lies at the intersection of beautiful/interesting/safe for female solo travelers/cheap/easy to get at from one of the places mentioned above.
TIA!
I might have another week from work and would like to visit another place that lies at the intersection of beautiful/interesting/safe for female solo travelers/cheap/easy to get at from one of the places mentioned above.
TIA!
Eight people? Two weeks? I don’t know where you’re coming from so jet lag might be a factor but you can easily spend two weeks in Paris itself without the hassle of packing up and arranging transport to another city which will eat up another day. Then there are plenty of day trips from Paris: Versailles, Fontainebleau, Chartres, Giverny. Others mentioned here. It’s quite fun to split up into smaller groups during the day and then meet for supper so everyone can talk about what they did.
If you definitely want to include Switzerland, look into open-jaws tickets if you’re flying so you don’t need to backtrack to depart.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 4:10 AM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you definitely want to include Switzerland, look into open-jaws tickets if you’re flying so you don’t need to backtrack to depart.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 4:10 AM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Completely agree that two weeks in Paris is not too much time in Paris, especially with a few day trips. Paris is amazing and has everything you are looking for. Wrangling eight people for another flight inside two weeks is going to be a lot of stress, time and work.
Breaking up into smaller groups is going to be almost necessary. Parisian restaurants often don't have many tables for eight. I'd strongly consider making trips and excursions in smaller numbers and meeting up once in a while with the entire group. Plan way ahead for dinners for eight. Or lunches. Or almost anything.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:25 AM on December 5, 2022
Breaking up into smaller groups is going to be almost necessary. Parisian restaurants often don't have many tables for eight. I'd strongly consider making trips and excursions in smaller numbers and meeting up once in a while with the entire group. Plan way ahead for dinners for eight. Or lunches. Or almost anything.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:25 AM on December 5, 2022
Response by poster: For some of us in developing countries, trips to Europe have to be somewhat cramped since the ruinous exchange rate (currently, 87 INR = 1 EUR) doesn't allow us to slow travel as much we'd like to. It's still nice to see those places, though.
Thanks for understanding.
posted by Nieshka at 4:45 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Thanks for understanding.
posted by Nieshka at 4:45 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Switzerland is beautiful if you like to see mountain scenery. Trains are expensive but very good through Switzerland and also through all of France. France SNCF releases cheap train tickets around 12 weeks before, although check the exact dates out.
April is off-peak (not ski season, not summer season) so some things may not be open, so do factor that in. Geneva is lovely, Bern is lovely. Not sure about museums and/or shopping though. Easy day trips out to the hills/ mountains/ local paths. Consider getting a Eurail pass, though I don't know the exact savings.
The Open Wineries event in Switzerland takes place late April early May if of interest: https://swisswine.ch/en/welcome-open-cellar-doors-2022
posted by moiraine at 5:10 AM on December 5, 2022
April is off-peak (not ski season, not summer season) so some things may not be open, so do factor that in. Geneva is lovely, Bern is lovely. Not sure about museums and/or shopping though. Easy day trips out to the hills/ mountains/ local paths. Consider getting a Eurail pass, though I don't know the exact savings.
The Open Wineries event in Switzerland takes place late April early May if of interest: https://swisswine.ch/en/welcome-open-cellar-doors-2022
posted by moiraine at 5:10 AM on December 5, 2022
Also if you are looking to save, the hostels in Switzerland are by some of the cleanest and nicest I have seen (though rather pricey).
And if you are looking to do a greatest hits of Europe kind of trip, you might want to consider heading down into Italy: Milan, Rome, Florence. Easy to travel between cities even with a large group; Italy is cheaper overall, lots of museums and shopping.
posted by moiraine at 5:21 AM on December 5, 2022
And if you are looking to do a greatest hits of Europe kind of trip, you might want to consider heading down into Italy: Milan, Rome, Florence. Easy to travel between cities even with a large group; Italy is cheaper overall, lots of museums and shopping.
posted by moiraine at 5:21 AM on December 5, 2022
Agree you could spend the whole time in Paris! What looks achievable is fly to Paris - 4-5 days - train to Bern - 3-4 days - train to Milan - 3-4 days - return to Paris by train. You would be perfectly fine to go on to Amsterdam by yourself once back in Paris, or Brussels, or Berlin, for solo lady travel.
posted by london explorer girl at 5:24 AM on December 5, 2022
posted by london explorer girl at 5:24 AM on December 5, 2022
I do realize my passport doesn't have as much problems as an Indian one in entering Europe, so I get the desire to really maximize that Schengen visa plus I totally get you on the exchange rate. That said, I'd still also ask you to reconsider the original plan. But if you still want to, you'll need to pack light, not 'asian light' but actual light. One backpack + one roller luggage. If you're already thinking about how costly it is, having to pay for service in Euros is not going to encourage you to pay for porters etc. So make sure you pack in such a way you can carry yourself up and down staircases - in case this wasn't emphasized most Paris métro stations have no escalators and only stairs. Asian friends I know, of similar class, at younger ages, 'complained' about that a lot.
So I say, do the first 5 days in Paris proper, and then do day trips by train to the suggested locales for the rest of the trip. If your friends find the luggage advice I provided unacceptable then I would even more recommend this itinerary. The big plus is that you'll have a base to keep your luggage there while you go around the city and surrounding towns.
If you still want one more city, then instead of Switzerland, make sure you're flying (in and) out of Amsterdam, so the transit gives you the excuse for an extra couple of days there.
posted by cendawanita at 5:53 AM on December 5, 2022
So I say, do the first 5 days in Paris proper, and then do day trips by train to the suggested locales for the rest of the trip. If your friends find the luggage advice I provided unacceptable then I would even more recommend this itinerary. The big plus is that you'll have a base to keep your luggage there while you go around the city and surrounding towns.
If you still want one more city, then instead of Switzerland, make sure you're flying (in and) out of Amsterdam, so the transit gives you the excuse for an extra couple of days there.
posted by cendawanita at 5:53 AM on December 5, 2022
Geneva, Basel, and Amsterdam are all easy 3-hour TGV rides from Paris, so while I am generally a fan of "stick in one place for a while" travel I don't think adding on Switzerland and/or Amsterdam are necessarily bad ideas. (And in Switzerland, especially, travel by train is part of the fun.) Rail passes are not usually a good deal unless you want the freedom to make travel decisions on the fly. If you are traveling as a group of eight and you want good deals on high-speed train fares, decide on your dates now and start looking at fares on RailEurope, SNCF, or bahn.de ASAP - advance fares will be significantly cheaper (traveling at inconvenient times, like 7AM on a Saturday, will also be cheaper). The shorter intercity fares you don't usually need to book in advance.
If you can do open-jaw tickets (e.g. fly into Geneva or Zurich and out of Amsterdam) that would save you even more time.
For Switzerland specifics, it would be good to know where in Switzerland you're hoping to go/what you're hoping to see. Basel and Geneva are very convenient from Paris but IMO kind of boring (maybe more fun for the shoppers); Zermatt is very popular but inconvenient from Paris (Interlaken might be a good substitute); Lausanne, Bern, and Luzern are charming and they're all only an hour or so from Geneva or Basel. A lot of things are closed on Sundays in Switzerland, so if you're only spending a few days in Switzerland I would recommend avoiding Sunday (or having Sunday as one of your travel days).
Paris is a great city for doing the "split up, then re-connect for aperitif/dinner/etc." kind of travel. I had a great time visiting Paris with a friend with whom I am wildly incompatible in terms of things like "tolerance for walking" and "sleep schedule". Eight is a lot for many restaurants in Paris but there are also neighborhood restaurants with lots of outside seating which you would probably be able to use in April (weather dependent, obviously). And there's always picnics in the park or eating together at the hotel/AirBnB or whatever.
posted by mskyle at 5:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you can do open-jaw tickets (e.g. fly into Geneva or Zurich and out of Amsterdam) that would save you even more time.
For Switzerland specifics, it would be good to know where in Switzerland you're hoping to go/what you're hoping to see. Basel and Geneva are very convenient from Paris but IMO kind of boring (maybe more fun for the shoppers); Zermatt is very popular but inconvenient from Paris (Interlaken might be a good substitute); Lausanne, Bern, and Luzern are charming and they're all only an hour or so from Geneva or Basel. A lot of things are closed on Sundays in Switzerland, so if you're only spending a few days in Switzerland I would recommend avoiding Sunday (or having Sunday as one of your travel days).
Paris is a great city for doing the "split up, then re-connect for aperitif/dinner/etc." kind of travel. I had a great time visiting Paris with a friend with whom I am wildly incompatible in terms of things like "tolerance for walking" and "sleep schedule". Eight is a lot for many restaurants in Paris but there are also neighborhood restaurants with lots of outside seating which you would probably be able to use in April (weather dependent, obviously). And there's always picnics in the park or eating together at the hotel/AirBnB or whatever.
posted by mskyle at 5:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also also: with the number of people in your group, you can actually approach your local travel & tour agents to draw up a personalized tour group itinerary for you. It shouldn't cost that much more than doing your own arrangements at your group size and fully negotiable on how free and easy you want it to be. So that's worth considering too.
posted by cendawanita at 5:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:56 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jesus Christ. Paris is fine but the idea that people would schlepp thousands of miles to spend two weeks in one horrendously expensive place is not helpful when it's not what was requested.
Anyway the obvious route is France > Switzerland > Italy and you can cheap-flight-airline back to Paris to depart from any major city in Italy. I would 100% do the travel between start and end point by train. TGV will cover all of the stops you'd want to make and has different priced tickets and options.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:02 AM on December 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Anyway the obvious route is France > Switzerland > Italy and you can cheap-flight-airline back to Paris to depart from any major city in Italy. I would 100% do the travel between start and end point by train. TGV will cover all of the stops you'd want to make and has different priced tickets and options.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:02 AM on December 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
we definitely want to see Paris and do a bit of Switzerland, but we're a bit fuzzy on the details/how to structure the trip
Switzerland is generally pretty expensive even compared to the rest of Europe, so you might think about what exactly you want to do and see - something particular or just the experience of the Alps? Because if the latter, you might be better off going somewhere else in the Alps, like northern Italy, and only travel through Switzerland on the train.
I'm not sure when in April you are thinking about, but Easter Sunday is on the 9th, so a lot of Europe will have school holidays around the first two weeks of April, and there will probably be a lot of people travelling and staying in hotels than in the latter two weeks of April. (May tends to get pretty busy again, particularly at weekends, thanks to the various public holidays.)
posted by scorbet at 6:11 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Switzerland is generally pretty expensive even compared to the rest of Europe, so you might think about what exactly you want to do and see - something particular or just the experience of the Alps? Because if the latter, you might be better off going somewhere else in the Alps, like northern Italy, and only travel through Switzerland on the train.
I'm not sure when in April you are thinking about, but Easter Sunday is on the 9th, so a lot of Europe will have school holidays around the first two weeks of April, and there will probably be a lot of people travelling and staying in hotels than in the latter two weeks of April. (May tends to get pretty busy again, particularly at weekends, thanks to the various public holidays.)
posted by scorbet at 6:11 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
There have been some suggestions about doing trips that start and end in Paris (or elsewhere), which makes sense since usually round-trip flight tickets are cheapest. However, you might want to explore the options for "multi-city" trips, where you'd fly in to Europe in one city and then fly home from another. Occasionally the prices are just as good (once in while they're even better) and it can get you more planning flexibility. Pretty much every flight search engine has a multi-city search option, alongside round-trip and one-way. You could also use the "depart from nearby airports" options with a wide search radius as a way to possibly find both cheaper tickets and interesting travel destinations.
posted by trig at 6:29 AM on December 5, 2022
posted by trig at 6:29 AM on December 5, 2022
Amsterdam isn't a bad place to go if you want to hit up both museums and shopping. There are multiple museums clustered around Museumplein, designer shopping is two blocks over on Pieter Cornelisz Hooftstraat, and boutiques are 2 km away in the "Nine Streets". It's a lot smaller than Paris so you can get around pretty quickly by tram/metro/bus, and it's all very English-friendly and quite safe for solo travelers. April is the perfect time to visit Keukenhof but you'd need an extra day to cover that + Amsterdam.
posted by neushoorn at 6:58 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by neushoorn at 6:58 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
To add in the late April in the Netherlands would mean a chance to see the amazing tulips! The Netherlands is so small and trains so easy that I would highly encourage fitting that it. It may be busy, but as long as you book ahead it would be fine.
April 27th is also Koningsdag (Kings day) which is a fun experience (I went to Queens day back in 2013) and is an outdoor celebration but not your typical tourist attraction so something to consider as well
posted by raccoon409 at 7:00 AM on December 5, 2022
April 27th is also Koningsdag (Kings day) which is a fun experience (I went to Queens day back in 2013) and is an outdoor celebration but not your typical tourist attraction so something to consider as well
posted by raccoon409 at 7:00 AM on December 5, 2022
Oh, with regards to French school. Vacations around April it tends to be 1 region starts 2 weeks before Easter with vacation ending with Easter, one region has a week break on either side of Easter and the last region starts vacation with Easter and then has 2 weeks off which means Easter itself is the busiest time, but those weekends around it can be very busy, so traveling on a Tuesday instead of a Saturday is much better!
posted by raccoon409 at 7:02 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 7:02 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Switzerland is shockingly expensive and I found it a bit boring as a tourist in big cities; I’d go back to visit the smaller towns and mountain villages, but probably would not bother making a trip to see eg Zurich again.
However, I think Amsterdam is a great idea. I had a lot of fun there, and it’s close enough to Paris by train.
I think you’d probably all like Barcelona as well given your stated interests… I’ve been to both cities multiple times and enjoy Barcelona a bit more—feels a bit smaller and more accessible to explore. It’s reachable from Paris in 6h on a high-speed train, apparently, which could be a fun experience in and of itself (I love European train travel). So my suggestion is that you could do an open jaw Amsterdam -> Paris -> Barcelona ticket and spend 4-5 days in each city.
posted by music for skeletons at 7:05 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
However, I think Amsterdam is a great idea. I had a lot of fun there, and it’s close enough to Paris by train.
I think you’d probably all like Barcelona as well given your stated interests… I’ve been to both cities multiple times and enjoy Barcelona a bit more—feels a bit smaller and more accessible to explore. It’s reachable from Paris in 6h on a high-speed train, apparently, which could be a fun experience in and of itself (I love European train travel). So my suggestion is that you could do an open jaw Amsterdam -> Paris -> Barcelona ticket and spend 4-5 days in each city.
posted by music for skeletons at 7:05 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
To more practically answer your question, what I would do is the following (however, depends on your group!)
Arrive Sunday April 16th to Paris.
Spend April 16-20 in Paris. This could mean a day for museums, a day for shopping, a day for “sites,” whatever. People can also break into their smaller groups.
April 20, take the train down to Annecy. It is a beautiful place and gives you that Swiss feel.
Saturday morning April 22, take the train to Geneva. Drop your bags at a hotel and then explore for the day including some shopping. You could also try to fit in then traveling to Lucerne, which is gorgeous, but also still expensive and I don’t know that it totally fits what you all would like to do in terms of shopping and siteseeing. Great for walking around though.
From Geneva fly to Amsterdam. I would do this on Sunday, as Geneva is expensive, but to your own interests!
Sunday April 23, arrive to Amsterdam. Stay in Amsterdam through the week and take day trips to see the tulips, ride bikes, see Zanns Schantz Windmills, celebrate Koninsdag on Thursday April 27th and then fly out on Friday April 28th (I’m assuming that travel home may take a good deal of time). This way if some people have more time, they can add on more cities/countries easily by train or flight (Belgium, England, etc)
In my proposed itinerary I’d actually include more time in Paris if possible, but tried to avoid difficult travel times. I also HIGHLY support the idea of traveling with only a roller board bag. The trains are usually set up well to support that, but much more can really be difficult (in addition to no elevators in hotels, etc)
I love the idea of working with a travel agent. Overall the biggest part is plan and book ahead! Especially if things like having train seats and meals all together is important to you
Editing to say that while what you are doing sounds far more upscale than “backpacking” through Europe, those types of itineraries may be helpful to you!
posted by raccoon409 at 7:22 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Arrive Sunday April 16th to Paris.
Spend April 16-20 in Paris. This could mean a day for museums, a day for shopping, a day for “sites,” whatever. People can also break into their smaller groups.
April 20, take the train down to Annecy. It is a beautiful place and gives you that Swiss feel.
Saturday morning April 22, take the train to Geneva. Drop your bags at a hotel and then explore for the day including some shopping. You could also try to fit in then traveling to Lucerne, which is gorgeous, but also still expensive and I don’t know that it totally fits what you all would like to do in terms of shopping and siteseeing. Great for walking around though.
From Geneva fly to Amsterdam. I would do this on Sunday, as Geneva is expensive, but to your own interests!
Sunday April 23, arrive to Amsterdam. Stay in Amsterdam through the week and take day trips to see the tulips, ride bikes, see Zanns Schantz Windmills, celebrate Koninsdag on Thursday April 27th and then fly out on Friday April 28th (I’m assuming that travel home may take a good deal of time). This way if some people have more time, they can add on more cities/countries easily by train or flight (Belgium, England, etc)
In my proposed itinerary I’d actually include more time in Paris if possible, but tried to avoid difficult travel times. I also HIGHLY support the idea of traveling with only a roller board bag. The trains are usually set up well to support that, but much more can really be difficult (in addition to no elevators in hotels, etc)
I love the idea of working with a travel agent. Overall the biggest part is plan and book ahead! Especially if things like having train seats and meals all together is important to you
Editing to say that while what you are doing sounds far more upscale than “backpacking” through Europe, those types of itineraries may be helpful to you!
posted by raccoon409 at 7:22 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would ask everyone for their must-visit choices and preferred activities. Cathedral towns will be old, interesting, good walking, cities have shopping, museums, galleries, nightlife. It's easy to find excellent destinations. Choosing hotels for a group is a big pain, so I'd look at big travel sites, and book a package. This has saved me money and hassles.
With 8 women, I might ask ask each person to choose a restaurant for each night; as long as you can get 2 tables, you're fine, you don't have to sit together. Then people can research their day events, and go together or alone. Communication gets fractured, fast. Set up a faceook, slack, etc., group, or at least a message group and ask everyone to try to keep plans in it to some degree. When I traveled with some old friends, I was willing to install the fb messenger app for that time period, deleted it later, as apps are so invasive.
posted by theora55 at 7:33 AM on December 5, 2022
With 8 women, I might ask ask each person to choose a restaurant for each night; as long as you can get 2 tables, you're fine, you don't have to sit together. Then people can research their day events, and go together or alone. Communication gets fractured, fast. Set up a faceook, slack, etc., group, or at least a message group and ask everyone to try to keep plans in it to some degree. When I traveled with some old friends, I was willing to install the fb messenger app for that time period, deleted it later, as apps are so invasive.
posted by theora55 at 7:33 AM on December 5, 2022
Maybe this itinerary?
As an extra destination, Amsterdam is v. easy from Paris and incredibly interesting and safe with good options for day trips. London likewise. Brussels and Cologne are good for at least a couple of days each if you want to go to more than one city. Travel onwards from Switzerland, I'm less sure about. It's pretty easy to get to Italian cities from there but I'm not as familiar with them.
posted by plonkee at 7:53 AM on December 5, 2022
- Day 1 Fly to Paris
- Day 2-6 Sightsee in Paris plus day trips to Versailles and perhaps Chartres, Rheims or Rouen
- Day 7 Travel from Paris to Geneva or Lausanne
- Day 8-9 Sightsee in Geneva/Lausanne
- Day 10 Travel to Interlaken, Lucerne or Lugano
- Day 11-13 Sightsee in Interlaken/Luceerne/Lugano
- Day 14 Fly home (this will be a long day)
As an extra destination, Amsterdam is v. easy from Paris and incredibly interesting and safe with good options for day trips. London likewise. Brussels and Cologne are good for at least a couple of days each if you want to go to more than one city. Travel onwards from Switzerland, I'm less sure about. It's pretty easy to get to Italian cities from there but I'm not as familiar with them.
posted by plonkee at 7:53 AM on December 5, 2022
Jesus Christ. Paris is fine but the idea that people would schlepp thousands of miles to spend two weeks in one horrendously expensive place is not helpful when it's not what was requested.
It's fine if that's what one wants to do, but one will be saving very little by going to the notoriously expensive Switzerland.
For your add-on trip, and assuming you are in the museum-going half, let me pitch taking the sleeper train from Paris to Vienna. Spent a week there as a solo female traveller several years back, had a great time. The museums are outstanding.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's fine if that's what one wants to do, but one will be saving very little by going to the notoriously expensive Switzerland.
For your add-on trip, and assuming you are in the museum-going half, let me pitch taking the sleeper train from Paris to Vienna. Spent a week there as a solo female traveller several years back, had a great time. The museums are outstanding.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I agree with many others that Switzerland is a bit boring and extremely expensive. If what you want to see is the Alps, I suggest you start your itinerary in Italy, either Rome or Milan, and then go through Switzerland by train in the morning, with a stop for lunch, for instance in Brig, Geneve or Basel. You can see the landscape from the train and it is glorious.
Most European trains are really fast and very clean and comfortable. When I was young, I made a point out of trying all the dining cars in Europe, but I feel they are no longer as interesting as they were. Too many microwave meals.
If you land in Rome, spend a couple of days there, and then go by train to Milan. Milan is a complicated city, not easy to love, but for shopping it is paradise. And the cultural offers and food are actually really good. Have one or two nights in Milan, and then leave for Paris early, so you can have that stop in Switzerland. I'm not a fan of Alpine food, which is another good reason not to stay there, but my trick is to always order the trout. Or if possible, (April might be a bit early), fresh pasta with mushrooms.
Then, after your lunchbreak, don't go all the way to Paris, but make an overnight stop in Beaune, which is a beautiful small town in the heart of Bourgogne. Spend the morning and have lunch there, and then head to Paris so you arrive in time for dinner.
Now, you have Paris, for as long as you feel fit after reading the above advice. Look for a hotel in the Marais. Then go to Amsterdam for a couple of days and fly out of Schiphol. Going by train to Amsterdam, Bruxelles could be a nice lunch stop. One of the great things about train travel is that you arrive in the middle of the city, whereas airports are always far from the interesting things. So you can get off the train in Bruxelles Central and walk in few minutes to Grand Place, where you can find a lovely place to eat, stroll around a bit, and then get back on the train to Amsterdam.
For your extra week, what about London, or Edinburgh (I love Edinburgh), or a combination? Or Scandinavia? I think Copenhagen or Stockholm are more interesting for tourists than Oslo or Helsinki, though Finnair has a lot of good offers on flights to Asia. Berlin is great too, but like Milan, perhaps hard to get at a short visit. All these places are safe for single women travellers, Southern Europe less so, which is why I think the route should go south to north rather than the other way round.
I don't think you save money on round trips anymore, so going in to one airport and out of another is just fine. If you go as much by train as suggested here, the Eurail pass is a good idea. It also gets you discounts at some museums. Otherwise, it is smart to order your tickets through Deutsche Bahn, even if you aren't going to Germany. But I agree that getting an agent is a good idea, and they might even earn their fee by finding good deals for you.
Having lunch or dinner for 8 will require reservations most places, but if the restaurant isn't in the Michelin guide (and many good bistros aren't), you can often get a table by asking the day before, or even the morning of. So the reservations you need to make ahead are those where you are only in the city a day or two, and for your first night in every place.
posted by mumimor at 8:40 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Most European trains are really fast and very clean and comfortable. When I was young, I made a point out of trying all the dining cars in Europe, but I feel they are no longer as interesting as they were. Too many microwave meals.
If you land in Rome, spend a couple of days there, and then go by train to Milan. Milan is a complicated city, not easy to love, but for shopping it is paradise. And the cultural offers and food are actually really good. Have one or two nights in Milan, and then leave for Paris early, so you can have that stop in Switzerland. I'm not a fan of Alpine food, which is another good reason not to stay there, but my trick is to always order the trout. Or if possible, (April might be a bit early), fresh pasta with mushrooms.
Then, after your lunchbreak, don't go all the way to Paris, but make an overnight stop in Beaune, which is a beautiful small town in the heart of Bourgogne. Spend the morning and have lunch there, and then head to Paris so you arrive in time for dinner.
Now, you have Paris, for as long as you feel fit after reading the above advice. Look for a hotel in the Marais. Then go to Amsterdam for a couple of days and fly out of Schiphol. Going by train to Amsterdam, Bruxelles could be a nice lunch stop. One of the great things about train travel is that you arrive in the middle of the city, whereas airports are always far from the interesting things. So you can get off the train in Bruxelles Central and walk in few minutes to Grand Place, where you can find a lovely place to eat, stroll around a bit, and then get back on the train to Amsterdam.
For your extra week, what about London, or Edinburgh (I love Edinburgh), or a combination? Or Scandinavia? I think Copenhagen or Stockholm are more interesting for tourists than Oslo or Helsinki, though Finnair has a lot of good offers on flights to Asia. Berlin is great too, but like Milan, perhaps hard to get at a short visit. All these places are safe for single women travellers, Southern Europe less so, which is why I think the route should go south to north rather than the other way round.
I don't think you save money on round trips anymore, so going in to one airport and out of another is just fine. If you go as much by train as suggested here, the Eurail pass is a good idea. It also gets you discounts at some museums. Otherwise, it is smart to order your tickets through Deutsche Bahn, even if you aren't going to Germany. But I agree that getting an agent is a good idea, and they might even earn their fee by finding good deals for you.
Having lunch or dinner for 8 will require reservations most places, but if the restaurant isn't in the Michelin guide (and many good bistros aren't), you can often get a table by asking the day before, or even the morning of. So the reservations you need to make ahead are those where you are only in the city a day or two, and for your first night in every place.
posted by mumimor at 8:40 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Indians like to go to Switzerland because of a very famous, very popular movie that was shot there. It's our childhood nostalgia, please allow us to indulge :)
Very much appreciate the responses that lay out actual possible choices, instead of making me feel defensive about the limited travel options available to me, including the ideas about splitting up for stuff smaller groups might be interested in. I'm grateful.
(It's okay to want to see the world on a less fancy budget and a kinda weak passport. No?)
posted by Nieshka at 8:45 AM on December 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Very much appreciate the responses that lay out actual possible choices, instead of making me feel defensive about the limited travel options available to me, including the ideas about splitting up for stuff smaller groups might be interested in. I'm grateful.
(It's okay to want to see the world on a less fancy budget and a kinda weak passport. No?)
posted by Nieshka at 8:45 AM on December 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Ah! I'd love to see that movie. If that means it is important for you to visit Zürich, that is also an option, but then I'd select Strassbourg for my charming provincial town stop en route to Paris, rather than Beaune.
Zürich is very beautiful, but even more boring and expensive than the other Swiss cities.
Thinking more about the budget aspect of this, Rome is a good city to experience on a budget. Milan less so, but not impossible.
You may want to look for airbnb lodgings in Paris, Amsterdam, and the Italian cities if you go there. They are cheaper pr person when the apartment is big. My students do this when we go on study trips. In Copenhagen and Stockholm, otherwise quite expensive cities, the hostels are great value, so that is something. They have single and double rooms, and are comfortable for all ages.
For me the UK is quite affordable now, because the pound has plunged after Brexit. I don't know how that works for you.
posted by mumimor at 9:09 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Zürich is very beautiful, but even more boring and expensive than the other Swiss cities.
Thinking more about the budget aspect of this, Rome is a good city to experience on a budget. Milan less so, but not impossible.
You may want to look for airbnb lodgings in Paris, Amsterdam, and the Italian cities if you go there. They are cheaper pr person when the apartment is big. My students do this when we go on study trips. In Copenhagen and Stockholm, otherwise quite expensive cities, the hostels are great value, so that is something. They have single and double rooms, and are comfortable for all ages.
For me the UK is quite affordable now, because the pound has plunged after Brexit. I don't know how that works for you.
posted by mumimor at 9:09 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, when I went to Mt. Titlis in 1997, there were cardboard cutouts of SRK and Kajol that you could take pictures with. Not sure if they are still there. Even outside of that, I respect the desire to see the Alps; they are not boring at all, and I'm sort of bewildered by the "Switzerland is boring" comments here.
For Switzerland in general, I would focus on the Bernese Oberland (Interlaken and environs) rather than Geneva or Zurich. A week in Paris (with day trips), a week in Interlaken (5 hr by train from Paris), then home.
Amsterdam is amazing, and probably does fit your preferences of shopping + museums better than Switzerland would. But I wouldn't try to add on a third location to a two week trip, and I say that as someone who does Very Active vacations. Coming from India you will probably lose at least a day on each end to travel anyhow.
posted by basalganglia at 9:12 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
For Switzerland in general, I would focus on the Bernese Oberland (Interlaken and environs) rather than Geneva or Zurich. A week in Paris (with day trips), a week in Interlaken (5 hr by train from Paris), then home.
Amsterdam is amazing, and probably does fit your preferences of shopping + museums better than Switzerland would. But I wouldn't try to add on a third location to a two week trip, and I say that as someone who does Very Active vacations. Coming from India you will probably lose at least a day on each end to travel anyhow.
posted by basalganglia at 9:12 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sorry, somehow my screen didn't scroll when I first read the wikipedia link. Now I see where you want to go is more like the Saanen area. That is great. Then you can exit Switzerland through Geneve or Basel, which I think is optimal.
I'm sort of bewildered by the "Switzerland is boring" comments here.
Well, first of all, Switzerland is extremely expensive. I think only Norway is more expensive. If you are on a tight budget, there are tons of things you can't do in Switzerland, like enter museums, eat nice food, stay at a nice place, shop for nice stuff, and that is boring.
And if your interests are strolling around cities, museums and shopping, there is not nothing to see in Switzerland, but also not much, compared to most other European countries (again except Norway). If your interests are skiing or hiking in fabulous nature, Switzerland is amazing.
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm sort of bewildered by the "Switzerland is boring" comments here.
Well, first of all, Switzerland is extremely expensive. I think only Norway is more expensive. If you are on a tight budget, there are tons of things you can't do in Switzerland, like enter museums, eat nice food, stay at a nice place, shop for nice stuff, and that is boring.
And if your interests are strolling around cities, museums and shopping, there is not nothing to see in Switzerland, but also not much, compared to most other European countries (again except Norway). If your interests are skiing or hiking in fabulous nature, Switzerland is amazing.
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ahhh DDLJ... yeah, why not, though the points about the cost remain extremely pertinent. I'm just chiming in again to vote against the UK -- iirc it's another visa application process even before Brexit for Indian nationals (not on arrival/visa-free), so no point adding on to that stress since you'll need to prep for the Schengen one anyway. Try to pick an itinerary flying out of Schipol then - loads of culture and shopping in Amsterdam especially for last minute souvenirs. And optimize the luggage setup!
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't check the visa requirements but if fewer countries are better, then live your dreams and just do France and Switzerland! I also want to point out that the best way to save money is to pack light. I just came back from a week in Milan and Venice (where my hotel was €50 per night!) and I went with a roller bag for toddlers and I was SO glad for the mobility tiny luggage gave me. Also note that bus travel is very possible, it's just something I don't know a lot about because I get really motion sick.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:06 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by DarlingBri at 12:06 PM on December 5, 2022
What kind of art are you into? I find Amsterdam crowded and boring and I’m pretty sure only Thalys runs between there and Paris, not SNCF (and Thalys is expensive & annoying), so I’d say skip it, except for some art it’s worthwhile. In Switzerland, Basel has wonderful museums and a lovely old town.
posted by dame at 12:45 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by dame at 12:45 PM on December 5, 2022
This post which parses Switzerland specifically from the point of view of DDLJ fans, might be helpful for you.
posted by rongorongo at 1:13 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 1:13 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I live in Switzerland and it’s great in many ways. But I have to agree with the people that have pointed out that it very much depends what you’re trying to do during your visit. If you’re after lakes and mountains that can be fairly inexpensive. Shopping and fine dining can be cost prohibitive. For lakes and mountains to be good value know that a number of boats and gondola are classed as public transport. But there will also be boats on lakes that are ‘cruising’ and as such more expensive.
For shopping and fine dining I’d do that elsewhere on your trip. Not because there isn’t any but because it will be the most expensive place to do these things.
As you mention travelling from India - a lot of Indians I know are vegetarian. In the large cities in Switzerland there are plenty of vegetarian food options. If you’re in a small town or village the options will be few and far in between, traditional Swiss fare tends to include meat or fish for a mains. You might be limited to a side dish or an overpriced pasta dish.
I will throw in a word for stopping in Lugano, not Geneva, and then heading into Italy. The train from both Basel and Zurich goes through very pretty lakes and mountains. Lugano is slightly more interesting/quaint than say Geneva (in my opinion). And you could move on into Italy for the night.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:15 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
For shopping and fine dining I’d do that elsewhere on your trip. Not because there isn’t any but because it will be the most expensive place to do these things.
As you mention travelling from India - a lot of Indians I know are vegetarian. In the large cities in Switzerland there are plenty of vegetarian food options. If you’re in a small town or village the options will be few and far in between, traditional Swiss fare tends to include meat or fish for a mains. You might be limited to a side dish or an overpriced pasta dish.
I will throw in a word for stopping in Lugano, not Geneva, and then heading into Italy. The train from both Basel and Zurich goes through very pretty lakes and mountains. Lugano is slightly more interesting/quaint than say Geneva (in my opinion). And you could move on into Italy for the night.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:15 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
In Switzerland, the top of my list for museums and pottering round the streets would be Basel (but I can't speak to the shopping aspect). I spent three or four days there on my own some years ago, did not run out of things to do, and would happily go back.
If you are in the museums contingent yourself, I second praemunire's suggestion of Vienna for your potential extra week. The museums (and the architecture!) are jawdropping, and I felt perfectly safe there as a woman travelling alone. However, it's a short flight or a fairly lengthy (though scenic) train journey from Basel, Zurich, Paris or Amsterdam, and I'm not sure how expensive accommodation would be.
You might also consider spending your extra week visiting some or all of The Hague, Antwerp, Ghent and Luxembourg City. The Hague seems to go under the tourist radar rather, but it has some really excellent museums, including the outstanding Panorama Mesdag. Antwerp is great for art, Ghent is somewhere I really want to visit myself (it looks delightful, and it has the oldest museum in Belgium), and Luxembourg City is built around a huge ravine, which is just brilliant.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 10:57 AM on December 6, 2022
If you are in the museums contingent yourself, I second praemunire's suggestion of Vienna for your potential extra week. The museums (and the architecture!) are jawdropping, and I felt perfectly safe there as a woman travelling alone. However, it's a short flight or a fairly lengthy (though scenic) train journey from Basel, Zurich, Paris or Amsterdam, and I'm not sure how expensive accommodation would be.
You might also consider spending your extra week visiting some or all of The Hague, Antwerp, Ghent and Luxembourg City. The Hague seems to go under the tourist radar rather, but it has some really excellent museums, including the outstanding Panorama Mesdag. Antwerp is great for art, Ghent is somewhere I really want to visit myself (it looks delightful, and it has the oldest museum in Belgium), and Luxembourg City is built around a huge ravine, which is just brilliant.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 10:57 AM on December 6, 2022
Whatever you do, definitely get a train through the alps. The scenery is really stunning, exactly like in films and it's easier than hiking up big mountains.
posted by plonkee at 2:56 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 2:56 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hate to be negative about an awesome trip, but I do want to suggest putting some advance planning into what to do if one or more of you gets COVID or a bad flu, particularly getting travel interruption insurance that can handle that eventuality as some policies won’t cover the COVID situation.
That’s what happened to us when visiting Europe in August, and I was super yuck for a full 7 days, and then easily tired, despite being triple vaxed at the time. Insurance luckily made it financially easy and no long COVID either, fortunately.
So even though you might not have to quarantine the infected person or yourself as a contact these days, if someone is more highly affected, they are likely to need to hunker down in a hotel and just take it easy. (Even the next two weeks after COVID, I was not up for too much adventuring. Reading by the pool was exactly what I wanted, maybe out for dinner. Luckily my husband was less affected.)
Hopefully it won’t come to that, but I wanted to say that the extra work of getting travel insurance covering COVID definitely paid off in peace of mind… and wallet.
posted by ec2y at 7:53 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
That’s what happened to us when visiting Europe in August, and I was super yuck for a full 7 days, and then easily tired, despite being triple vaxed at the time. Insurance luckily made it financially easy and no long COVID either, fortunately.
So even though you might not have to quarantine the infected person or yourself as a contact these days, if someone is more highly affected, they are likely to need to hunker down in a hotel and just take it easy. (Even the next two weeks after COVID, I was not up for too much adventuring. Reading by the pool was exactly what I wanted, maybe out for dinner. Luckily my husband was less affected.)
Hopefully it won’t come to that, but I wanted to say that the extra work of getting travel insurance covering COVID definitely paid off in peace of mind… and wallet.
posted by ec2y at 7:53 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
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posted by Nieshka at 3:50 AM on December 5, 2022