How to have better convos about adopting dogs

November 28, 2022 10:38 PM

I have been hoping to adopt specific breeds of dog when I finally have a backyard for them. I am doing regular research on reputable breeders and looking for rescues on Petfinder. Multiple people in my life are outraged by my desire to adopt anything other than a shelter dog. One family member told me point blank that I must support kill shelters, which was horrible to hear seeing as I donate upwards of $5k a year to no-kill rescues in multiple states. How do I talk about this?

Animal welfare and pet ownership are a huge part of my life. I spend a lot of time learning about the care and keeping of different breeds, their temperaments, their idiosyncrasies, and how to identify backyard breeders who do not do right by their dams and create repulsive mills that put all of their litters at risk. When I can, I want to have a retirement community for senior cats and dogs, but until I can afford real estate for that I set aside money each month to send to multiple no-kill shelters to sponsor animals with special needs.

My desire to adopt specific breeds comes from an awareness of which breeds I think I can best take care of. I will be a good mom to pitbulls, dachshunds, and terriers, so they are the dogs I am focusing on. My priority will be to look for rescues first, then talking to breeders.

When I express these things to folks who are also pet people, I get so much vitriol. It's like they ignore all the parts where I talk about rescues, funding no-kill shelters, etc, and just focus on the heinousness of not seeking out a mutt by default. I usually have to end the conversations by saying, "All dogs deserve the best care, and I will do my best to do right by whatever ones come my way." Sometimes that satisfies people (which is good because I mean it with my whole heart), and sometimes I get emails about dogs in kill shelters whose time is running out.

How do I respond when someone accuses me of being pro-kill shelters because I want specific breeds? It's not like I am gearing up to spend $10k on a "designer" dog whose breeders haven't done genetic testing and are only producing puppies for looks.

Please be honest with me: am I the asshole?

posted by The Adventure Begins to Pets & Animals (36 answers total)

I will be a good mom to pitbulls, dachshunds, and terriers, so they are the dogs I am focusing on. My priority will be to look for rescues first, then talking to breeders.

Pitbulls are the most euthanized breed so it's a moot point. You'll find a rescue to fall in love with.
posted by aniola at 11:00 PM on November 28, 2022 [29 favorites]

I would not call you an asshole at all. You sound like a caring person with a big heart. But I do find it inconsistent with your purported values that you would even entertain the idea of buying a dog from a breeder since you probably know that breeders are at least in part responsible for the large numbers of homeless animals who are in shelters and/or euthanized each year. If you're not already aware of that association, you could seek out stories from shelter workers or volunteers who can tell you about intakes from breeders who have been shut down, whose operators died or went bankrupt or just decided to get out of the business, whose dogs didn't meet breed standards and were surrendered, or from people who bought from a breeder and later surrendered the dog for myriad reasons. Shelter workers have been in the trenches and they can tell you all kinds of reasons to avoid breeders. Perhaps it's this inconsistency that is causing you to receive the kind of feedback that you've been getting. It seems that you recognize the problem of pet overpopulation while also stating that you would consider giving actual money to people who make more pets. It's fantastic that you donate to shelters but you can best support shelters by adopting from them and discouraging all intentional breeding of animals.

Another reason that you may be receiving pushback from people is that there are so many dogs of all breeds, ages, and temperaments who need homes. It is common and understandable that people are looking for a certain breed and since you mentioned Petfinder you're already aware of how to find exactly what you're looking for. There's simply no reason to go to a breeder.

If you're able to, volunteering with your local shelter will really open your eyes as to what a huge problem pet overpopulation is and how animals suffer as a result. As a bonus, you will have lots of opportunities to find your new family member.

Also, pit bulls are the best, most loving dogs ever and since they're on your list of breeds that you are interested in I agree with aniola that there will be no issue in finding one at a shelter or breed-specific rescue. Best of luck to you in finding an adoptee.
posted by mezzanayne at 12:12 AM on November 29, 2022 [20 favorites]

As a rule, if a specific topic or sub-topic upsets everybody you talk to.....perhaps don't keep bringing it up in casual conversation with people who don't need to know.

Your family and friends don't need to know the details of your search and all the options you're considering. That is none of their business.

You're looking into pet ownership; you've researched breeds and are keeping your eyes open. What exactly that means to you is up to you. If pushed, mention Petfinder not that you're also considering talking to breeders.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:31 AM on November 29, 2022 [25 favorites]

This is your choice, and not their business.

I can understand that you would like to be able to have a friendly conversation about your new dog-to-be with your friends and family, but it seems that they are not able to do that.

Don't discuss it with them.
posted by Zumbador at 1:18 AM on November 29, 2022 [22 favorites]

Mezzanayne (above) has said everything I wanted to say perfectly.

You are definitely not an asshole, but I also don’t think it makes sense to even consider buying from a breeder.
posted by Salamander at 1:29 AM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

You're not the asshole, but you can recognize thatthe people you hear as vitriolic are also not the asshole.

I've worked in animal care since 1993. I can say, with confidence, that "no kill" is a marketing term that damages animal rescues that do not turn away animals for any reason. I can say, with confidence, that I cannot support intntional breeding in good consscience.

I can also say that if you adopt an animal, and you take steps that you can say, with confidence, are well-researched and vetted and are better than other options, good on you. I can also say that maybe we can be better allies by not focusing on our differences, and instead finding where we might be able to help one another. I second the note above that you canalmost certainly find a rescue that suits your needs.

So just hang in there, keep looking, and worry less about the opinions that you don't think are accurate relfections of your convictions.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:24 AM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

It’s no one’s business what kind of dog you buy. Stop discussing it with them and you won’t have this problem.
posted by Jubey at 2:43 AM on November 29, 2022 [10 favorites]

If you touch a hot stove and get burned, then it seems like the best course of action is to stop touching the stove.

In other words, stop discussing this topic with these people.

If you want to gush about your future dog plans (which is natural, you're excited!) I'd choose a far more casual audience.

Instead of discussing it with people who have strong opinions and are quick with a lecture, chat with friends and family who aren't as invested.
posted by champers at 2:52 AM on November 29, 2022 [2 favorites]

I agree that it would make the most sense, and the least friction, to focus on your excitement to find and work with rescues. Your ideal situation is for that to work out, so why not just focus on that, and leave the possibility of falling back to a breeder out of the conversation? You know the kinds of dogs that will work well for you, you’ve done your research and identified rescues to work with to get such a dog, period.

But I also wanted to recommend that you leave your funding of no-kill shelters out of these conversations. For someone who believes you are planning to do something they see as a terrible thing, the fact that you also do another good thing isn’t relevant and frankly is likely to make things worse, as if you think you can buy yourself out of an ethical dilemma.

When faced with someone accusing you of supporting kill shelters or unethical breeders, I think you can just say that’s untrue and that you’re very much hoping to give a good life to a rescue dog. But I don’t think you should waste your energy trying to convince them beyond that. It’s okay to end those conversations rather than trying to convince people to see things your way.
posted by Stacey at 3:29 AM on November 29, 2022 [1 favorite]

No, you're not the asshole. But if you're interested in pitbulls and yet are talking about dog breeders, a lot of people may struggle with that. The shelter/rescue population is overwhelmed with pitbulls; because of this, almost everyone who deliberately breeds pitbulls is in a dubious ethical position. Consumer demand for a "well bred" pitbull is low, and tends to derive from people who want good fighting dogs. In general, the morality of breeding dogs to purposely have gameness for fighting other dogs is questionable at best, regardless of who's buying the dogs and for what use. In short, if you're leading with, "I want a pitbull, and I'm looking at breeders," then this may explain some of the negative reaction...and I would reconsider doing this, period, when young pitbulls (including puppies) are so widely available to rescue.

People may also react negatively to the idea of breeding dachshunds, due to their very high risk of spinal problems. Spinal deformity is a fundamental aspect of the breed, and finding a good breeder is not going to mitigate that.

However, others may be strongly opposed to dog breeding in general, or have the impression that shelters are replete with healthy young dogs with minimal behavior issues (which in many areas is just not true at all). The latter may be persuadable if you talk it out. The former are never going to see eye to eye with you, and I wouldn't continue to talk about your plans with them.
posted by desert outpost at 4:01 AM on November 29, 2022 [25 favorites]

I have one handsome purebred dog I thoroughly researched and bought from a breeder for $$ and have had his whole life. I have one nasty little toy mutt with mental health issues I adopted from a shelter telling them "give me any senior under 20lbs who you're struggling to find a safe home for." I feel very confident that my exactly two data points of dog ownership has given me a high amount of experience to talk about my dog ownership with other people.

So in the few times I have had someone get shirty with me about my dog choices, I just pivot. I'm happy with my dog choices and confident I've made the right choices for me. I don't have to defend myself to anyone talking to me in bad faith. It's just not their business? Like I'm happy to and enjoy talking about my dog finding stories to anyone genuinely interested, but someone who just wants to fight can eat my ass.

Another thought: it's ok to be rude to someone who is being rude to you. You don't have to respond in any meaningful way to anyone who's being rude to you. You can just tell them to fuck off. It's fine.
posted by phunniemee at 4:49 AM on November 29, 2022 [16 favorites]

It sounds to me like your focus, when it comes to the topic of animal welfare, is the treatment of individual animals. You reference backyard breeders mistreating dams and putting litters at risk; sponsoring special needs animals at shelters; and wanting to create a space for elderly animals. That is very kind and loving of you to care about the welfare of these animals.

But . . . Many people consider intentional breeding, as a practice, to be a significant contributor to animal welfare issues like abandonment and shelter overcrowding. Not because all breeders are bad or mistreat animals, but because intentional breeding perpetuates the idea that "pure" breeds are desirable, creating a market for those animals. And if a market exists, there are people who will exploit it, whether they are responsible breeders who take the best care of each and every litter or puppy mills. At the end of the day, all intentional breeding creates more pets who need homes, when we already have a surplus of pets who need homes. It's a systemic issue, and I'm guessing that the pushback you get in real life is from people who rightfully see your stated preferences and adoption plan as reinforcing this system.

I will also gently challenge the idea that a dog's breed contributes significantly to behavior. Current research shows that it isn't a significant predictor of behavior in individual dogs. So if your breed preferences are based on particular characteristics that you want your pet to possess, then you might be better served by just looking for those behaviors in potential dogs rather than simply screening by breed/appearance.

But at the end of the day, you do you. I know plenty of people who have purchased from breeders and plenty who only adopt from shelters, and they are all good pet parents.
posted by ailouros08 at 4:56 AM on November 29, 2022 [10 favorites]

Your title asks about how to have better conversations about this topic. Sorry, that may not be possible.

"It's like they ignore all the parts where I talk about"

There are words/topics where, when they come up, lots of people just lose their ability to listen to details or think carefully. And if they think that the other side of the issue is not only wrong but harmful to helpless beings that can't protect themselves, they of course feel justified in getting pretty rude about trying to dissuade their interlocutor. Once the topic comes up and once it becomes clear that you are on the other side from them, they will get rude, even if you eventually manage to de-escalate.
posted by brainwane at 5:01 AM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

You're not the asshole, but you can recognize thatthe people you hear as vitriolic are also not the asshole.

I don't know about that, the phrase "One family member told me point blank that I must support kill shelters" sure makes it sound like we can point to at least one asshole here.

Please be honest with me: am I the asshole?

Bluntly, it sounds like there's a lot more to unpack here than what sort of dog you should get from who. In a healthy environment, this is not the kind of conversation that ends with a family member telling you you're obviously pro-killing-dogs, which is a pretty extreme and manipulative accusation, and I have to wonder how many other conversations in your life end up with you being accused of some sort of monstrosity or moral failing when you express a preference people around you disapprove of.
posted by mhoye at 5:21 AM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]

One person's "reputable breeder" is another person's "back yard breeder." Even selecting a breeder from the AKC website doesn't carry any data about ethical, responsible breeding practices; you have to do that research on your own with each individual breeder and their setup. If I were your family member, and I had a point of view about what makes a breeder ethical and responsible, there's likely nothing you could say to change my mind. It's a lot like the definition of "misinformation" right now; it's not likely that other people could change my mind about how I characterize it.

If you're getting poor responses from the people you're talking to about this topic, you can really only stop that by not talking to them about it.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:32 AM on November 29, 2022 [2 favorites]

I think buying purebred dogs is unethical and I also think it's no one's place to be shitty to you about it. I know and love people who have bought designer animals and I would never scold and shame them.

So you don't owe anyone anything and should absolutely rise above everyone who judges you. But you asked this question so here's my thoughts.

I have never personally met anyone who cares about animal welfare and also would buy a dog from a breeder so people may be shocked by the combo of 'I passionately care about animal welfare' mixed with 'I want to buy a new puppy from a breeder.' You can find purebred dogs at shelters.

I also have owned dogs for twenty years and have learned from personal experience that purebred dogs are individuals and can have serious issues because of being inbred. Sometimes these issues are not something you'd find out about unless you really dug deep about the breed. Like I had no clue about cocker spaniel rage syndrome when I rescued my cocker but I learned real quick once he started attacking everyone with no provocation.

Assuming that a dog will be X (friendly, good with kids, not full of rage) because they are Fancy Breed known to be X is one of the main reasons that so many purebred dogs end up in shelters. All Cocker Spaniels are not the same. Adopting an animal without getting to know their individual needs and temperament is a recipe for a bad fit.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 5:33 AM on November 29, 2022 [11 favorites]

As an owner of a seriously difficult dog I adopted from a shelter, you are making a long commitment and have a right to get what you want. Do any of these people giving you advice have children? All adopted? I am just tired of so much unsolicited advice out there and I say that as a recovering (still in progress) opinionated advisor.
posted by InkaLomax at 5:42 AM on November 29, 2022 [10 favorites]

stop discussing this topic with these people.

I promise you, if you're frustrated, annoyed, or angered by these conversations now, they will 1000% increase once you get the dog. Why? Because in the course of walking a dog, especially one new to the neighborhood or dog park, you will be asked repeatedly about where the dog came from. It is second only to, "How old is she/he?"

My dog is 11 and I still get asked that question a couple times a week.

If people in your circle are giving you a piece of their mind, wait until the topic comes up with a stranger who doesn't feel the need to hold back.

As to the "AITA" part of your question... no, but an analogy that comes to mind is someone who marches to Defund the Police, but calls the cops when the neighbor's party is too loud too late. There seems to be a disconnect that I, as someone who's owned dogs for 40+ years (including two pit bulls), simply do not understand.

Lastly, you can do all the research you want, but much of it is for nought. Dogs have different personalities and their upbringing will affect them more than their breed. My two pitbulls could not have been more different (one was adopted at 8 and the other at 8 weeks). Listening to people talk about "Well, the dog is a ____, so what did you expect!" always reminds me of people talking about astrology. They don't seem to be able to see the ways the things they're saying can suit pretty much anyone.

In addition to living with dogs for all but 10 of my 54 years, I've also dog sat in seven countries and been responsible for 100s of dogs of almost as many breeds. Without exaggeration I can tell you that meeting with the owner for 5 minutes will tell me much more about what to expect when meeting the dog than knowing the breed of the animal. With the exception of physical traits (height, weight, etc), breed research is useless.
posted by dobbs at 5:49 AM on November 29, 2022 [7 favorites]

As a lifelong dog owner I will tell you that there is always someone who will forcefully tell you you're wrong about dogs. Always. And in this new world of bringing non-support dogs to crowded stores and amusement parks for funsies and photo ops, they're not always correct. But they're still loud.

But it's also on you to not be the person telling others they're wrong about dogs. Financially supporting shelters and then buying a dog from a breeder is inconsistent behavior yet not a huge moral failing. Same with lecturing people about plastic straws while having 3 kids, 2 minivans, and a Keurig.

Support your shelters, give a dog a better life than what they could have had, don't preach or be preached to, and you'll be fine.
posted by kimberussell at 5:52 AM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

Conversations about dog adoption and dog breeding are a lot like conversations about religion -- you are very, very unlikely to convince the other person that you are right, though occasionally a conversion will happen.

And, no matter what choice you make, someone is still going to tell you that you are wrong. We have a rescue dog and every so often the conversation will go from someone asking a general question about what breed it might be (answer: who knows?) and how much did it cost (weird question but people ask all the time) to being at the receiving end of a lecture about how rescue dogs are way too high risk and their sister in law had a rescue dog who was terrible and blah blah blah. To which I pretty much just say "ok, sure" and try to divert the conversation since we aren't ever going to be on the same page.

I am sure the people with dogs that came from a breeder get the equivalent conversation where people lecture them about the superiority of rescue dogs all the time, and it must get really old.

At the end of the day, my advice here is to stop having these loaded conversations with people who aren't on the same page as you. Or, if the conversation is inevitable, find ways to deflect it into generalities and platitudes rather than getting into the kind of back and forth where you are justifying your choices and they are telling you why you are wrong. It's no one's business but your own.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]

Having a dog is like having kids in that people have tons of opinions about the whole thing. I agree that you'll deal with it throughout your dog's life. I've gotten it on multiple ends - when raising service-bound puppies that were purebred and when having my own rescue dog. It's ramped up over the past few years as well.

Best thing you can do emotionally is centre yourself for the conversations.

If lots of people are talking to you about this before you have a backyard, never mind a dog, that's probably a sign you are talking about it a lot. It's okay to keep your plans to yourself.

If it's really bothering you though, I think it might be valuable for you to think through why that is. As people have said, there is a disconnect between your stated values and your plans here (as is true for most of us for a lot of things!) and that might be why it's getting in your head a little.

Every time someone buys a puppy, they make breeding profitable and breeders line up the next litter, which for some breeds like dachshunds mean that dogs who are going to suffer are continuing to be bred - that's just a straight-up fact. Other facts include phones are made in factories where workers are treated like garbage and polar fleece has inundated the world with microplastics. We all go to bed at night with these facts available to us, but some bother us more than others. I think it is worth it for you to put a bit of time into thinking about whether this is getting under your skin more than other topics because you yourself have some ambiguity about your thoughts here.

Maybe you will decide that getting the dog you want is more important than the breeding aspect, and maybe you won't, but I would say slow down and take the time to stop talking about it with other people that will push you into a position one way or another and really, really get in touch with your own feelings and values.*

* I really, really want a dog right now, in fact a particular senior dog at my local rescue that I have fallen for hard, but my cat hates them and flies at them to scratch their eyes out. So I have sat with a lot of dog feelings and will be continuing to do that for about a decade, so I get it.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:38 AM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]

I'm sure you know this in doing your research, but breed-specific rescues are a thing. You can still get the breed you want that is also a rescue. Including young dogs and puppies. In my case I fell in love with a Havanese I met, and then another one I met, and I found a young Havanese on Petfinder that had been rescued along with some Yorkies from a puppy mill.

As a data point, I know two people who got dogs from "reputable breeders" that they researched and in one case, traveled across a couple states to adopt from. In both cases, the dogs developed health problems before they were two years old. There is no guarantee from a breeder.

It does seem odd that you are passionate about animal welfare and supporting shelters but don't want to adopt from one, and this may be part of the pushback you've seen.
posted by Glinn at 6:44 AM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]

Animal people can be really judgmental. I know this because I am one, and I grew up with animals, in a family that loved them and cared for their every need and whim. I love dogs, and I love it when we love them. But why are so many of us like this to people? I think it's because animals are vulnerable and it is legally permissible to mistreat them in many jurisdictions (or when it is against the law, it's difficult to have it enforced). That means it always feels urgent and individually important to intervene, even just through bossiness. Plus, morally, it's easy. In the words of Neil Steinberg: "Human beings are so messy; you help them and they ask for more. How awkward. Animals just gaze gratefully ..."

I support adoption as a first resort, but not a moral mandate. A breeder's pup is also a dog that is in danger of an unhappy future. They may have hereditary problems or just non-conforming traits that make them less appealing as a "product." Even without that, they are not guaranteed homes, much less good ones, just because money is involved with them.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:46 AM on November 29, 2022 [5 favorites]

As other answers have mentioned, these conversations can be intense because people really love dogs. And the love people have for their rescue dogs can be intense, and often overlaps with a hatred their dogs breeder/former owner in cases where there are signs of abuse. I've only had one dog, but I grew up hearing stories of how it took my mom awhile to convince this dog that whenever she rose her hand to pet the dog, she wasn't going to hit her - there were other signs of abuse too. This was made all the more absurd by the fact that this dog was so extremely sweet and smart - such a good dog.

I share this side story not to suggest this is the sort of animal abuse you'd ever support, but to point out that many people (myself included) have a knee jerk reactions against dog breeding that is rooted in the experience of witnessing the bad effects of the industry as a whole. But I agree, I would never hurl vitriol at a friend considering getting a pure breed - I might gently try to dissuade them, but I'd be brief and polite about it. You should just end any conversation that's gotten off the rails.

I suggest not sharing anything until you've actually done an adoption, given that you'll likely be able to find a rescue dog anyhow. And then if you do end up going a breeder route, you will have specifics to share about why and how you screened them - so that way you're at least discussing a concrete action and not a hypothetical one.
posted by coffeecat at 6:51 AM on November 29, 2022

Response by poster: Thank you all so much. I understand now the contradictory things I've been saying, and you are right. I will adjust what I say (if I talk about it at all anymore) and focus on what I most want to do which is rescue.
posted by The Adventure Begins at 6:56 AM on November 29, 2022 [5 favorites]

You might ask these people where they think pet dogs should come from - not where you should get them from, but what their original source should be. Unfixed dogs allowed to roam free and mate randomly? People trying to make money by breeding any two dogs of the same breed without caring whether they have genetic temperament or health issues? People who thought it would be fun to have a litter of puppies and never even considered whether either parent might have genetic issues? None of those sound ideal, right?

The alternative is people deliberately breeding for good health and good temperaments (and probably other breed-typical characteristics.) You could certainly argue that some breeds as they exist now have too many structure and health problems and that it's not ethical to continue to breed that type of dog. But I think most people would agree, if they think about it for a minute, that it does make sense to deliberately breed dogs for a particular combination of size, looks and temperament and/or for abilities we need. It's okay to breed working herding dogs or livestock guardians, right? Or guide dogs? Why not also breed some dogs for characteristics that make them good pets?

If it's okay, even desirable, for ethical dog breeders to exist, then it's morally okay to buy a dog from one. If you're donating thousands of dollars a year to shelters, you're doing more to help homeless dogs than someone who adopted a shelter dog or two - even if you also buy a dog from a breeder.
posted by Redstart at 7:18 AM on November 29, 2022 [8 favorites]

I have never personally met anyone who cares about animal welfare and also would buy a dog from a breeder

I have (the person who comes to mind immediately also has a tiny weirdo of a rescue with behavioral issues). While I believe one has to consider rescue carefully first, it's not a perfectly straightforward question, and a new dog will be a family member for a decade or more.

I also don't think buying from a breeder and supporting rescues at the same time is necessarily trying to offset a bad action with a good one.

Still, though, OP, I hope you can see from these reactions that people sometimes have very strong feelings on the topic, and you're volunteering to be a lightning rod for all the anger and sadness people feel about the mistreatment of dogs generally (to be honest, I doubt people would care half as passionately about questionable breeders if there weren't so many homeless and abused dogs; sometimes anger, like electricity, chooses the shortest path). I think by bundling in a defense of your plan while you talk about it, you're cueing people that it's acceptable to criticize your choice. I'd stop doing that.
posted by praemunire at 8:03 AM on November 29, 2022 [2 favorites]

Perhaps the reaction is to the pit bulls specifically since they end up in shelters so often? One can have pure-bred pit bulls from shelters to one's heart's desire.

Where do you live though that everyone is so... insolent. I can't imagine people I barely know taking that kind of tone.

How do I respond when someone accuses me of being pro-kill shelters because I want specific breeds?

Well, this may be unwise with family but in most cases I would probably just tell them fuck off.
posted by atrazine at 8:12 AM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

Short version of my original answer: You're going to do what you want to do, just like I will one day probably adopt or be adopted by some dogs again despite my own deeply mixed feelings about it. But if you're going to do something that simply cannot really be justified as ethical under the slightest scrutiny, don't put it up for review by other people unless you are explicitly looking for their guidance. Yes, we ARE kind of the assholes here, for supporting an unsustainable and inappropriate system that has an incredible amount of cruelty and pain and suffering rolled in.

Breeding is fake, and people who want to go blah blah blah about "kill" versus "high suffering" (because let's call "no-kill" by real words) and then use a breeder are, yes, doing a bad thing. All shelters should be high-kill shelters, canine reproduction should be basically illegal except for two very specific cases - livestock management and service animals - and anyone who cares about animal welfare should have a philosophy more like "Dog Zero" than "dog mom". The wide variety of choice you desire - for dogs that literally should not exist, sport hunting is unspeakable and the only dogs you can mom are those breeds - is built on the backs of millions of suffering animals. At least own it if you're going to do it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:03 AM on November 29, 2022 [6 favorites]

Here in Maine, strays are exceedingly uncommon. Dogs from kill shelters are brought here at great expense and adopted, lots and lots of dogs. Because the goal is to save dogs from kill shelters, many of them are pit bulls and mixes, because there are an awful lot of pit bulls. The choices at local shelters are typically the least desirable dogs from Southern kill shelters. The last dog I adopted from a local shelter, a hound, was a mess, with expensive and difficult health issues, and who had to be euthanized fairly young.

I don't want and can't manage a pit bull, they are just too strong. I know they have many fans, but the only unintentional puppies I've encountered in years are pit bulls. Neighbor has a pitbull pup, rescued by a family member who couldn't keep him, who is occupying a great deal of time and effort. I see a lot of dog owners at the dog park with shelter dogs they are unable to manage. Breed-specific rescues can be sketchy. The vast majority of unwanted dogs are from the South. I checked local shelters, and there were few dogs suitable for me, those dogs were adopted fast; it was Covid and adoption was difficult.

I wanted a poodle for Reasons. I made sure she was healthy, as many purebreds are bred for looks, and breeds have had ill health bred in to them, including dachshunds, German Shepherds, Cavalier King Charles, and all of the brachycephalic dogs - pugs, French bulldogs, etc. Although Purebred Dogs Can Be Best in Show, Are They Worst in Health? Professional breeders are part of this, as are backyard breeders, and the wretched puppy mills are the worst. Breeders vary massively.

The people responsible for kill shelters are the people who treat pets as disposable objects, who don't spay and neuter and allow unintentional litters and release dogs when they don't care for them any more. People who adopt from shelters are doing a kindness. But you don't have to unless you choose to. If you want a pit bull, connect with one of the many pit bull groups, and you'll be able to choose a terrific pup. If you live where there are good options at shelters, great. If not, it's okay to not be the solution for every problem. And it isn't anybody else's business.
posted by theora55 at 9:53 AM on November 29, 2022 [6 favorites]

My friend has a dog she got from a highly regarded breeder and he's an unmanageable trainwreck, so I'm not sure about some of the generalizations being made in this thread. It's only been in the last decade or so that "rescuing" animals has become seen as some kind of big, virtue-signaling act of self-sacrifice. When I was growing up it was just kinda the default way to get a dog....you'd go to the pound and pick one out. I'm only saying this because I always feel very obliged to push back on the idea that rescue dogs = neurotic badly-behaved weirdos. This is very much not always the case, and but I see it perpetuated time and again and I think it influences people to go to a breeder when they otherwise might have been very happy adopting.
posted by cakelite at 10:45 AM on November 29, 2022 [9 favorites]

A lot of people have the idea that there is a big dog overpopulation problem in the U.S., with huge numbers of dogs that could make great pets being euthanized every day. But that's based on the way things were back in the 70's, not on today's reality. According to this ASPCA page on pet statistics, around 12-13% of dogs that end up in shelters are euthanized each year. Some of those probably are dogs that could potentially be great pets. But I'm sure a lot of them are dogs with serious behavioral or health issues.

It looks to me like supply and demand are actually fairly well-matched. I don't think a 13% euthanization rate means there are only enough homes for 87% of the dogs born each year. I think it's more likely to mean 13% of the dogs born each year will end up developing issues that make them undesirable as pets.

And look at Petfinder or any shelter website and you'll see that the vast majority of available dogs are mixed breed. Shelters aren't filling up with dogs produced by breeders of purebred dogs and large numbers of mixed breed dogs aren't remaining unadopted because people are buying purebred puppies instead. Most dogs taken in by shelters get adopted. (And most purebred dogs either don't end up in shelters or rescues or are quickly adopted. Try searching golden retriever rescue sites and you'll see how few purebred golden retrievers needing homes there really are.)

It sounds like a lot of the pet people you know think buying a purebred dog from a breeder basically means sentencing some sweet, healthy young mutt to death, but that's just not true.
posted by Redstart at 12:00 PM on November 29, 2022 [5 favorites]

Somebody is the asshole here, but it doesn't have anything to do with where you get your dog.

But, to address the dog question:

Rescue vs. breeder has now become so polarized, a la Republicans vs Democrats, that there is usually no point in trying to engage with the other side. And, frustratingly, as Redstart points out, anti-breeder sentiment is largely based on inaccurate, outdated information. Purebred dogs rarely end up in shelters or even in breed rescue. If you are looking specifically for a shelter dog, and have any kind of size or temperament requirement at all, pickings are slim. I just checked Petfinder for my area and there are a grand total of 12 dogs available. Five of them are pit bulls and the rest are breeds that would not be appropriate for large segments of the population: a Lab, a Husky, a German Shepard, a Mastiff, etc. This is typical.

I have had three purebred dogs, all from the same breeder, who breeds one litter every year or two and whose dogs are all CHIC-certified and live in her home. All of my dogs have been robustly healthy, athletic, and good-natured. When I had serious health problems and contemplated giving up my current dog for his own quality of life, she had a great new home lined up for him within a week (that thank God I didn't need in the end). These dogs are appropriate for me, a small, middle-aged woman with a bad back. I am grateful to be able to get a dog with predictable size and temperament, and knowing it is exceedingly unlikely to have a breed-specific health problem.

Good breeders like this exist. So do crappy breeders. Healthy breeds exist, and so do train wreck breeds. You're a thoughtful person, and will be able to find a healthy dog from a responsible breeder if you apply yourself.

Also, I have never had a single contentious conversation with anyone about my choice. Very occasionally someone will ask where I got my dogs, but it's always because they already have one of the same breed or want one. I don't solicit opinions and certainly don't offer mine (except when asked!). That way asshole-dom lies.
posted by HotToddy at 1:09 PM on November 29, 2022 [4 favorites]

I just checked Petfinder for my area and there are a grand total of 12 dogs available. Five of them are pit bulls and the rest are breeds that would not be appropriate for large segments of the population: a Lab, a Husky, a German Shepard, a Mastiff, etc. This is typical.

This is very different in insome areas. There's nearly 1,000 available within 25 miles of me and when I looked, the dog I'm fostering who's cleared for adoption wasn't listed (even though he should be) so that's not a complete record. The shelter I work with has had to put down perfectly adoptable dogs recently because they're at their legal limit and the rescues are maxed out on what they can handle. Whereas other areas, like one mentioned about, are driving in dogs from other regions because demand exceeds supply.
posted by Candleman at 2:34 PM on November 29, 2022 [1 favorite]

You are not the asshole. I'm sorry people become know it all monsters when it comes to how you got a dog.

Ive had a corgi from a friends parent's litter, who was an excellent bomb proof dog until he was 10 and got cancer. He came everywhere with me, loved anyone, would stay with friends/family no problem everyone clammored to have him while we were on vacation.

I then adopted my current dog, who came up from the south and was found in a landfill. We adore him, he leads a wonderful life, is snoring in front of me now, but has taken 3 years to get like this, and has enough quirks (like wont let anyone but me/my husband put a leash on him), that we cant leave him with friends/dog walkers ect. We were happy to put in the work to get him to trust us and be the best dog he can be, but it was work and he is so lucky he came to us where we were willing to adjust our lives to make sure he is supported and happy

I used to foster for a rescue group and quickly realized that "oh! just adopt!" doesn't always benefit the dogs, or the families who have good intentions but dont realize what they are signing up for. Can purebreads have issues? Absolutely. But I also get people wanting to hedge their bets and get puppies so they can train them from the beginning and have an idea of their background.

I dont know what my next dog will be. I also know I avoid the hell out of judging people for what they choose after what i've learned and experienced. A dog will have a great life with you, and that's all that matters. I just wouldn't engage on this topic with people unfortunately.
posted by zara at 2:47 PM on November 29, 2022 [1 favorite]

Lyn Never's point above that if you really object to dog breeding you should also object to pet dogs is the logical extension of the philosophy, I think. It's the same philosophy that leads people to argue that we should allow and encourage wool sheep to go extinct rather than to shear them. It's not a position susceptible to argumentation because it's based on some very specific and absolute values about the correct relationship between people and animals. (It's not a philosophy I follow or support, but at least it's internally consistent.)

If people have that position, and you don't, there's no way to have a constructive dialog about it. You have a fundamental mismatch of values. But it's your dog, and your house, and your values. There's still a lot of dialog left to have with people who share your values but might disagree about your implementation - the points above about pitties and dachshunds are good examples - and I think you can very reasonably restrict yourself to those conversations, and the other ones just shrug and move on from without engaging.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:24 AM on November 30, 2022 [1 favorite]