Skip the baby talk
November 8, 2022 8:54 AM   Subscribe

I am in my early 30 and have been partnered up for a long time. I have never really wanted to be a parent. My partner wants a baby but is supportive of the fact that I do not want a child at the moment. I do not want to entirely rule out starting a family mainly because I am worried I may regret it when I am 50. But as it stands, I do not want children. How do I tell my in laws to stop getting after me about this?

I am pretty sure they mean well and want to know if their firstborn son is going to ever become a dad. But I am tired of them asking me if I want children. I'd previously respond saying "yes, at some point" but recently I have started to make it clear that I am not dying to have children nor do I have any particular desire to be a parent. Naturally, they are not pleased and have told me that until I have a baby, I will never know how much I will love it.

Obviously, if I end up having a kid, I will love it and look after it. But I do not want one. And my partner's parents treat me like I am a freak because I am - gasp - a woman who does not want a baby. My partner's mum even goes so far as to say that since I am a "beautiful woman" it would be a shame not to have children.

I feel so frustrated at this point. Is it wrong for a woman not to want children?! I am not a monster. I love my partner's siblings' babies. But it is also possible for me not to want one at the same time. I cannot keep feeling apologetic for not feel maternal.

In general, my partner's parents are full of unsolicited advice. I tolerate them because they mean well. I have argued enough with my partner over the years about them and I have realised they do mean well and are caring in their own way.

My family, on the other hand, are extremely relaxed and my parents and grandparents are never the sort to tell me what to do. They know I am not particularly maternal and they are incredibly supportive. As in, my not wanting children is a non-issue in my family. I am SO incredibly grateful for them.

I need to work through whether I want a baby or not / whether my relationship with my partner will survive if we are childfree / my worries regarding pregnancy and birth (I have long term rheumatological issues). In the meantime, how do I (politely) tell my partner's parents and his family to mind their own business.
posted by bigyellowtaxi to Human Relations (38 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
Response by poster: Apologies for the typos! I swear I cannot type properly on my ipad.
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 8:55 AM on November 8, 2022

It is your partner’s job to run interference on this, not yours.

You as a couple do not owe anyone an explanation or excuses for why you don’t want to have kids right now or ever. A script for your partner can be something like “mom and dad, that’s a personal question and we’re not open to a conversation about it. Let’s discuss something else”.

Additionally, they should have a private conversation with them, without you, where they explain that this pattern of questions is not appropriate and that you as a couple will not be discussing it with them further.

So, to answer your question, start by discussing this with your partner, explaining how it makes you feel when their parents talk to you like this, and tell them that you need them to step in when their family starts prying with these inappropriate questions.
posted by rodneyaug at 9:06 AM on November 8, 2022 [36 favorites]

Best answer: It is absolutely not wrong for you to not want a baby. I wish more people who didn't really want babies wouldn't have them.

At this point your partner should step up and tell his parents to stop getting on your case about it. No matter their feelings, even if they were completely supportive, whether or not to have children is a private matter and none of their business.

Whether your partner has your back or not is a good indicator of whether he's someone you want to procreate with.
posted by headnsouth at 9:08 AM on November 8, 2022 [12 favorites]

Best answer: What you are feeling and thinking is normal and you have the right to think and feel that way. More than that, it is not their business how you think or feel about having kids (or not having them). Even more than that, it is 100% not their business to weigh in about that choice or have a say in it, either directly through pressuring you to do so, or indirectly through making you feel like there's something wrong with you or your life if you don't.

They're not your parents, though. So I think that if you want this to stop, the message needs to come from your partner. He doesn't need to say why they should stop asking, he definitely doesn't have to tell them that you're both still considering it as a possibility (whether you are or not) to make them feel better - again, it's not their business. All telling them that did was buy some time, and give them an opening. You don't want that. So he just needs to say that it's making both of you uncomfortable, that it's your decision as grownups to make, you can give them your word that you will let them know if it will happen. But otherwise if they don't hear anything, assume the answer is no. And that moving forward, if they ask either of you, but especially you, about having kids, you will leave the room. Period. And then, that's what you do.

If it helps to reframe this, if you were someone who wanted a baby and were going through infertility (especially for a health or genetic reason you'd rather not disclose), those comments would be incredibly hurtful in a way that they might understand. I'm not saying this so that you can reframe it for them that way. It's not their business. But you have the right to say "you don't get to ask this," without it in any way reflecting on you or your choices as a person.
posted by Mchelly at 9:15 AM on November 8, 2022 [5 favorites]

Best answer: It is never wrong for any human to steer their own life. Today is a good day to remember that.

I agree that it's your partner's job to interface with his parents on this issue. And it will serve as a pretty good barometer of whether and how your relationship with him will weather, with or without children -- whether he really accepts your feelings, or whether he's just waiting them out.

He really needs to put down a line with them, regardless of what you end up deciding either together or on your own. You need him to put down that line. That's what I'd focus on.

I'm a woman whose desire to have kids just .... steadily decreased since, well, childhood I guess. I just never had that feeling come over me as I aged, though I see it happen to so many others. To the contrary, I grew more and more secure in my lack of desire to procreate. And I think people should really want to do it, at a minimum.
posted by Dashy at 9:25 AM on November 8, 2022 [9 favorites]

Absolutely agreeing that it's your partner's job to have this discussion with them. And then it's your partner's job to back you up if they can't stop this dialogue. Which may mean spending less time with them. Hopefully it won't come to that, but the first line of defense is via your partner.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:27 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I had this issue with my ex's family, and he would not run interference for me. Here's what I did.

1) Say something like, "Oh my, that's a terribly personal decision/topic. I'm afraid I don't want to discuss that. I love this cake; what's the recipe?" or something to that effect. Essentially imply that it's rude to talk about it and blink roundly at them, and then change the subject. Usually this works due to confusion and certain sorts of people's desire not to be rude.

2) Leave the room. Anytime anyone would bring it up, just leave. Find something else to do, lock myself in the bathroom, whatever. 15 minutes was usually long enough for them to have moved on to some other topic.

3) Refuse to handle other people's babies. If you like babies, this is tough, but if you don't particularly care, it's fine. I used to not mind holding a baby or being nice about a kid, but while we were with his family I avoided small children in order to avoid this kind of talk.

4) Eventually my then-spouse attended events without me, which also let me avoid it.

Having kids is a huge decision, and people treat it like it's just something on a checklist, primarily because for a lot of older people, that is literally how it was. Women didn't have anywhere near the opportunity to do something other than raise kids in the past, and in many ways, didn't have the ability to escape that fate anyway, unless they opted out of sex. So older people in general just do not have the mindset. It's not, as you say, malicious, but it is narrow and upsetting.

You're completely right to be put off by this behavior and you are completely right to not want to be pushed about this thought process. Stand your ground, and I hope your partner steps in to help.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:40 AM on November 8, 2022 [12 favorites]

I don't think you can get them to stop, or assume that your partner can successfully shut them down. All you can do is take care of you, and I especially liked Medieval Maven's suggestion of leaving the room.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:50 AM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

When they ask if you'd like to have children, smile and reply, "Yes! Medium-rare, with potatoes!"
posted by AJaffe at 10:10 AM on November 8, 2022 [7 favorites]

Best answer: It's not wrong for a woman to not want children. I hope that as time goes by you feel less and less like you need to be apologetic. I'm in my 50s now, but when this was happening to me, with my then in-laws and my own family, I eventually took the position of "Why would you want me to have a child I don't even want? What is the matter with you? If you want a grandchild so much, PLEASE go ahead and make your own arrangements." But that is not polite, which is what you asked for.

I agree that your spouse needs to run interference. If that doesn't happen, you have this internet stranger's permission to counter your in-laws' incredible rudeness with a succinct "This is a tough topic for me. I don't want to talk about it." And then leave the conversation if they keep pressing. Enforcing boundaries with rude, presumptuous people takes stamina and consistency. You'll probably have to say it many, many times. Don't cave and answer any questions, ever, because they will have learned that your boundaries aren't solid.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:25 AM on November 8, 2022 [8 favorites]

"May I ask that we don't revisit this conversation any more? Thank you so much for understanding."
posted by nouvelle-personne at 10:38 AM on November 8, 2022 [6 favorites]

My wife and I always used: "For now we're just practicing! *Wink Wink*"

One person was persistent enough to get a "we'll make sure to let you know when we've decided whether or not to procreate...until then, later!"
posted by schyler523 at 10:45 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]

Best answer: If he won't set a boundary with his parents on this NOW ... you know what life would be like if you WERE to decide to procreate with him.
posted by cyndigo at 10:53 AM on November 8, 2022 [4 favorites]

Best answer: I just want you to know that you are not alone or wrong - I too am a straight woman that does not want kids. Especially with the state of the world now and the direction it's going. How can I subject a person live a whole life through this?

And maybe you just come out and state that you are probably not going to have children. Just be honest. We aren't responsible for how others feel, it's not like you can control how they feel anyway. And watch you end up having one kid and they start asking you when you are having a second to keep it company. I've seen this. Be true to yourself.
posted by Saucywench at 11:12 AM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

It is not wrong to want to live childfree.

Like you, I had a dialogue with myself about potential future regrets. But it's hard to have that dialogue when someone else is screaming in your ear-- either your partner or his parents.

If your partner really wants a child with you, then it's up to him to make the case for it. That INCLUDES getting his parents off your back and putting a stop to their attempts to "wear you down".

This is between you and him. If you have a child, it will change both your lives both for the better and worse, in ways you can't predict, and you can't change it back. In exchange, you get a new person. YMMV.

For myself, I don't feel regrets. I occasionally feel what-ifs. I might have liked to meet the adults those children would have turned out to be. But I would not have parented them well; I'm not emotionally suited to it. When the pandemic hit I felt nothing but relief at being single and childfree.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:12 AM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

“Oh, that’s a private conversation for me and Partner.”

But also, I wonder if your Partner has expressed that they want kids to their parents and that’s why this is coming up so often?
posted by raccoon409 at 11:22 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]

Best answer: No kids. 54 year old woman. No regrets.

I finally told my mom that if she wanted grandkids so bad she’d need to figure out another way to get them.

We never spent enough time with my husband’s family during child bearing years to get any comments.

Nosy acquaintances, coworkers and so forth all got the same line:
“I can’t. I’m allergic.”

But I agree with those who suggest your partner needs to rein his family in.
posted by hilaryjade at 11:34 AM on November 8, 2022 [4 favorites]

This didn't stop for me until my sister and my wife's sister both had kids (wife and I are both the oldest kids).
posted by mmascolino at 11:41 AM on November 8, 2022

Best answer: Chris, Pat, I really know that you would like us to have a baby. It’s a deeply personal decision, and it’s just awkward and, honestly, difficult, to discuss it so frequently. I promise you that if we have any news on the topic, I’ll let you know promptly, but I’m going to take a break from discussing it.

And then stick to it.
posted by theora55 at 11:48 AM on November 8, 2022 [6 favorites]

Best answer: On the list of reasons why this should be your partner's job: he'll know better than you what ways of making someone shut up are actually effective in his family.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:00 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: My in-laws asked my husband at some point whether we'd have them (while I was in a different room) and I guess they found his response satisfactory enough, because they haven't asked me directly. (We won't.)

I am comfortable with answering this question once and then refusing to talk about it again -- because my mother was a big fan of repeatedly asking/begging/negotiating for grandkids -- but I think it makes a difference that I'm very certain and secure in my decision. Not that you should be obligated to, but you might feel more comfortable shutting down any direct and repeated inquiries when you have worked through that last paragraph in your Ask to your own satisfaction.
posted by sm1tten at 12:17 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: I hope that your partner takes his responsibility to run interference for you more seriously. I'm not sure if you want to get more aggressive with them, but I'd happily tell badgering in-laws that every time they ask, I promise to not think about it for another year.

I'm a woman who had a long-unexamined assumption that I'd be a mom. However, once I was with my husband and thought long and hard about it, we decided not to have kids. We would have been great parents and talked through parenting at length. However, we didn't have unbridled enthusiasm for it and didn't desperately want kids, so we decided to dedicate ourselves to being great aunt/uncle figures in the lives of the kids in our family and friend group.

I think parenthood should only be considered if you're willing to sacrifice a ton for it because you want it more than anything. I have never regretted my decision and I'm months from 50. As the years go on, I've only become more sure that being child-free was the right decision for us.
posted by quince at 1:33 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

I'm 43, married, and never had or wanted kids. No regrets, I'm so glad I didn't cave to societal or family pressure. You should really, really want to be a parent before you decide to have kids. If you don't, the kids can tell and therapy is expensive.

Anyway. If I were you, and I know this sounds absolutely terrible, but I would tell a white lie. Obviously talk to your partner first and get them on board. Then next time they bring it up, get all quiet and look down and say 'look, I didn't want to talk about this before, but I'm actually not able to have children. So it just isn't in the cards for us." Partner can assist by standing there looking solemn, and declining to be pressed for further details on your infertility. Any follow up questions can be responded to with, "I'm sorry I just can't talk about it, it's too painful."

I guarantee they will stop asking, and probably feel like jerks for pushing you (which they should, it's incredibly tactless to pressure someone into pregnancy when they repeatedly say they don't want to). And technically, it is true that you aren't able to have kids: because you don't want to, and bodily autonomy is your right.

This also give you the opportunity to birth a 'miracle baby' if you ever do change your mind.

Maybe this is all a step too far for you, but nothing gets my dander up like people pressuring someone to make irreversible life choices that they don't want to make.
posted by ananci at 1:51 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: I was your partner in this situation. In our case, we ultimately decided to have a kid, but it emphatically had nothing to do with my mother's agitating for one. I know you said you want to be polite, but I found that it was helpful to baldly state the stakes of what was being asked of me: "we're not going to create a human being because you want a grandchild."
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:59 PM on November 8, 2022 [5 favorites]

I agree with the consensus here that this is primarily your partner's job to run interference, but I think the best approach to dealing with it if they bring it up to you (which they likely will, regardless of what he does) is to position this in a way that takes their concerns seriously (more on this in a second). I'd say "I appreciate that the topic of children is important to you, as it is to me and [partner]. That's why we are actively trying to figure this out for ourselves now. Figuring this out will be much easier for us if it's a decision between just the two of us, so please respect our decision to work this out privately. I promise you'll get an answer sooner that way."

While I agree they are being annoying and pushy (I too am a woman who does not want kids, I get it), I don't think they are entirely off-base as some others here seem to think. They know their kid "wants a baby" as you put it (and married you with an agreement that you both wanted a kid) - a generous way of reading their pushiness is not just that they may be advocating for their own desires, but the desire of their child, who they love. So if their kid/your partner wants some space to work this out with you, they need to clearly articulate that that is what they currently want to their parents. I would not joke or lie about this - this is a legitimately serious topic, and your partner should be able to be honest with their parents about what is going on, and how they feel about it.

All that said - I would set a time limit to figure this out. Even if your partner is a man, there is still a biological clock for men - sperm counts go down with age, as does the ability to attract an age-appropriate partner with fully-working fertility. You are obviously not a monster for not wanting kids, but it also likely doesn't feel great for your partner to have been told that you were fully on board to have a kid, and now maybe you aren't. If you remain clear you don't want kids, and they still very much want a kid, then I'm not sure how you stay together without them becoming very bitter at not being able to experience parenthood.
posted by coffeecat at 2:40 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: OP does not say they are married.
posted by Comet Bug at 3:25 PM on November 8, 2022

OP does say they have in laws.
posted by coffeecat at 3:35 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: This is 100% on your partner to control and run interference on. If he is not doing so, the cynical side of me wonders if he is not bothered by it because deep down he thinks/hopes it can convince you to have kids with him.

When I was in my mid-20s, before I was partnered up, my own mother kept bringing up kids, partly assuming it was an "when" and not "if" situation, and partly probing how I'm leaning. I distinctly remember a "come to Jesus" talk organically happened while I was driving, and it was a great opportunity in retrospect, as I could say what I wanted to say without having to make eye contact. I just said straight-up that I was 99% sure I wouldn't have kids, and that that 1% is not a 'OMG it could still happen! You'll change your mind!' Having kids is a personal choice for a woman, and they (my parents) moved to the this country to give me so-called better opportunities, and this is one opportunity I am taking for myself. Constantly asking or hinting about it just moves me to open up to her less and less.

I was not optimistic, but honestly, it worked. She never brought up the subject again.

Granted that is my own parent, not an in-law. Hopefully your partner can have that same conversation with their parents to shut this all down. If you feel your partner will support you in this, you and he may even strategize to turn the tables on the in-laws: ask them all the questions, and return the awkward back to sender! Each time we meet up, you ask the same questions, why is that? What do you think the effect is, of this line of questioning? Do you think this is helpful? Do you believe in a woman's autonomy and right to choose? What are some good reasons to have a child? What are some good reasons not to have them? etc. etc. Put THEM in the hot seat and hopefully it shuts them up.
posted by tinydancer at 3:58 PM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]

Best answer: If they want a child so bad, they can adopt or foster. But that's just me and I'm kind of cranky. YMMV. You could also defer to other siblings and say, "It's THEIR turn!" in a kind of joking way so they'd get off your back. You could also say kids are gross and full of germs. If someone hands you a kid, you could also say no thanks, I'm vegetarian. Lots of things.

What might work best for YOU is to not let it bug you as much. Some people sometimes think that having child/ren is the ONLY directive in life and the longer you wait to fulfill that directive could mean all sorts of things they may or may not want to examine.

Ultimately, *YOU* are the one (with partner) who would be completely responsible for the life you create. For better or worse, and that is a lot of money and responsibility. It could also mean your life as the birthing parent because complications can and do happen. Childbirth is one of, if not the most, dangerous activity someone who gives birth can endure. It is a decision that should not be taken lightly and should not under the best of circumstances be embarked upon because of pestering in-laws.

Best thing you can do is stick to the party line like a broken record and hopefully they'll tire of it. Consistency is key. "We haven't decided yet." Even if it takes you to your 80's and 90's.
posted by VyanSelei at 4:38 PM on November 8, 2022

You wrote: My partner wants a baby but is supportive of the fact that I do not want a child at the moment.

Part of me wonders if your partner is truly being supportive of your choice not to have a child. You two should be a united front to his parents and I wonder if he's not secretly complaining behind your back. Or that he's not complaining but they know he wants a kid so they're trying to fight on his behalf. Of course, this is not effective or fair but you are questioning yourself so it is working a bit.

In general, my partner's parents are full of unsolicited advice. I tolerate them because they mean well. I have argued enough with my partner over the years about them and I have realised they do mean well and are caring in their own way.

You definitely do not want to have kids with this person because he isn't fully on your side when it comes to his family. If the relationship ends because of the kid situation, then it's sad but ultimately for the best. You are wise to know you don't want to have a kid, and I think you should listen to your gut!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:12 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

FWIW I'm single, in my late 30s, and wish I had a partner with whom I'd want to raise a child. But I don't! However, I know I won't regret not having a child once I'm 50 because there's so much more to life; also, raising kids is super hard and expensive even when you love them. I'm sure I'd love my theoretical kids, too.

Moreover, I would not have kids with a partner like yours: not because he's bad but because we want such different things and he lets his parents intervene too much in your life. I know there are cultural differences but ultimately we set our own boundaries or accept ones that aren't ideal but have enough advantages regardless. I'm sorry it's been so hard!
posted by smorgasbord at 7:17 PM on November 8, 2022

Best answer: This is not a problem that exists between your partner's parents and you, where you're on one team and his parents are on the other, and your partner isn't involved. This is a problem that exists between your partner and you, because you are not on the same team as your partner about having a baby. Right now, you are on Team No Baby, and your partner and his parents are both on Team Baby. I'm not saying your partner is doing this on purpose, that he's nefariously encouraging or allowing his parents to pressure you about a baby in hopes that it'll cause you to change your mind and join Team Baby. But your partner is not stepping up and telling his parents that it is okay that you are on Team No Baby and that they should stop asking you to join Team Baby, because he actually doesn't feel okay about you being on Team No Baby. He wants you on Team Baby, and so it's going to be very hard for him to do his job of managing his own family, when he thinks they're right about this, and that Team No Baby is the wrong team. You need to figure this out, and you've acknowledged that. But framing this as a problem as one between you and his parents leaves out his responsibility to solve it with you, which he's abdicating because he is not on your team. He's on Team Baby.

I'll say, I may be biased because I am on Team No Baby, but if my partner didn't defend me against his parents, even on something where he and I were fighting, that would be a deal breaker for me and a sign that I should not try to get on the same team as this person, because he is not a team player. Baby or no baby, you should always be able to feel like your partner is on Team You Are Not a Freak for Wanting the Things You Want and Team My Family Is Not Allowed to Make My Partner Feel Bad. And right now, that's not the relationship you have, and even if I wanted a baby, I wouldn't want to have a baby with someone who isn't already on my team on those much more fundamental things.
posted by decathecting at 7:30 PM on November 8, 2022 [11 favorites]

Best answer: Here is your script right here in your post! “I need to work through whether I want a baby or not / whether my relationship with my partner will survive if we are childfree / my worries regarding pregnancy and birth (I have long term rheumatological issues). In the meantime, how do I (politely) tell my partner's parents and his family to mind their own business.”

You say “there are health considerations that need to be worked out before it’s on the table. These health issues are quite private and not helped by stress, and knowing we’re going to have this conversation over and over stresses me out.” And cry a little if it’s in character for you.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:16 PM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I’d tell Partner and Parents that right now you’re on the fence about having kids but unfortunately because you’re feeling so pressured, it’s turning you off the idea altogether, because no one wants to feel pressured into anything. They’re actually having the opposite effect of what they were trying to achieve.

Also maybe tell them the more they try and interfere in your decision making the less it makes you want to give them a grandkid because you’re afraid they’ll do the same there. Watch how quickly you never hear a peep out of them again…
posted by Jubey at 11:15 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: You can point out to the world and say, "Until that is better, I'm not bringing a kid in to suffer in it."

Bonus points if you use every opportunity this comes up to ask the unsolicited advisors how they're working/voting/changing to make the world habitable for the lifespan of a potential new human brought into it. Climate, guns, abortion, basic welfare of humanity, etc., this seems like a good pivot into territory that is just as uncomfortable for your audience but actually practical and well-timed.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:58 AM on November 9, 2022 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: They know their kid "wants a baby" as you put it (and married you with an agreement that you both wanted a kid)

You are obviously not a monster for not wanting kids, but it also likely doesn't feel great for your partner to have been told that you were fully on board to have a kid, and now maybe you aren't.

@coffeecat: I just wanted to say that I am not sure why you are under the impression I was fully on board to have a kid before I got married. I have never had any desire to have a kid and partner has always been aware of that. I have known them for over a decade. I guess they thought I'd change my mind as I got older. Thank you for your script though, very useful.

Also, we aren't married - but that is not relevant really! I tend to refer to my partner's parents as my in laws as it is just easier that way.

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all these wonderful responses. I am now armed with ammunition for Christmas. Ten days with the in laws. Sigh.
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 3:40 AM on November 9, 2022 [1 favorite]

My friend does not want to have children and has always been sure of that fact. In the last few years though her mom has relentlessly pushed for it, with many painful conversations (the likes of which include, “is it because we didn’t buy you enough toy dolls when you were little?” as if it were a psychiatric condition to not want children. These conversations have been repeated no matter her requests for them to stop or her obvious hurt.

Please give yourself advance permission for the trip to end early if they do not stop pushing.
posted by raccoon409 at 5:44 AM on November 9, 2022 [1 favorite]

I might try, "Have you considered adopting?" if they ask. There are many organizations that have children who need grandparent-like figures in their lives. If your in laws are really gunning for grandbabies, they could be surrogate ones for a child in need.
posted by The Adventure Begins at 5:05 PM on November 9, 2022 [2 favorites]

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