It's Beginning To Look a Lot Like ... Photography!
November 8, 2022 4:21 AM Subscribe
Very responsible teen daughter would like a "real" camera for the holidays, by which (I believe) she means not a little point-and-shoot digital. So I'm looking to buy a solid beginners camera, fairly lightweight, not too many bells and whistles. Maybe like this? Totally out of my expertise so I'm looking for advice from MeFi photogs. Specifically, can you recommend a beginner-friendly digital camera?
I wouldn't get that Nikon or any similar all-in-one camera. But see if you can get answers to Thorzdad's questions and let us know your budget and we can definitely help you out.
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:37 AM on November 8, 2022
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:37 AM on November 8, 2022
What's your budget?
I'm obviously showing my own biases here, but I think someone at that age looking for a "real" camera would want an interchangeable lens camera system. What you've linked is known as a "bridge" camera, and they're fine, but it's not what most people think when you tell them to imagine a camera.
The problem with the market nowadays is that cameras are basically sold to "serious" shooters, since anyone who wants to shoot casually uses their smartphone. Hence, prices are high because hobbyists want lots of bells and whistles. I'd suggest looking at the used market for an older (but still very capable!) body and lens combination. The good news is that a lot of this kit tends to retain a decent chunk of its value, so if the kid gets bored in a year it's possible to resell it. KEH.com and MPB.com are the big players in the used camera market and both are reputable.
Again, personal bias, but I really like the Fuji X-system. Their niche is building cameras that have that old 80s-90s SLR feel to them (and that era is cool again with the kids, right?), so you'll have direct control over shutter speed, ISO, and EV compensation on dedicated buttons right on the camera body. Their XF lenses also have dedicated aperture control rings, so you can change all the exposure settings you would need to use with real controls on the camera - this is not true of most digital systems nowadays. If you can find a used X-T10 that would be a decent choice. You'll also need a lens, and you can go either with a "prime" (fixed focal length) or a zoom lens. Again, personal bias, but for someone just learning to use a camera I'd go with a used "normal" length prime lens (the XF 35 mm f/2 is the pick for this camera system). You can buy more lenses later if kid shows more interest.
If you can find both of those items in good condition on the used market, you're probably looking around $600-$700.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:38 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm obviously showing my own biases here, but I think someone at that age looking for a "real" camera would want an interchangeable lens camera system. What you've linked is known as a "bridge" camera, and they're fine, but it's not what most people think when you tell them to imagine a camera.
The problem with the market nowadays is that cameras are basically sold to "serious" shooters, since anyone who wants to shoot casually uses their smartphone. Hence, prices are high because hobbyists want lots of bells and whistles. I'd suggest looking at the used market for an older (but still very capable!) body and lens combination. The good news is that a lot of this kit tends to retain a decent chunk of its value, so if the kid gets bored in a year it's possible to resell it. KEH.com and MPB.com are the big players in the used camera market and both are reputable.
Again, personal bias, but I really like the Fuji X-system. Their niche is building cameras that have that old 80s-90s SLR feel to them (and that era is cool again with the kids, right?), so you'll have direct control over shutter speed, ISO, and EV compensation on dedicated buttons right on the camera body. Their XF lenses also have dedicated aperture control rings, so you can change all the exposure settings you would need to use with real controls on the camera - this is not true of most digital systems nowadays. If you can find a used X-T10 that would be a decent choice. You'll also need a lens, and you can go either with a "prime" (fixed focal length) or a zoom lens. Again, personal bias, but for someone just learning to use a camera I'd go with a used "normal" length prime lens (the XF 35 mm f/2 is the pick for this camera system). You can buy more lenses later if kid shows more interest.
If you can find both of those items in good condition on the used market, you're probably looking around $600-$700.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:38 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I love film myself, but you really need to factor in the budget for developing, if you go that route. (Unless she happens to have access to a darkroom, or you're willing to build one.) It is incredibly expensive to shoot the number of shots you need to get good ones (and to get good in general) if you have to pay $0.70 per shot to see how they came out.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:52 AM on November 8, 2022
posted by restless_nomad at 6:52 AM on November 8, 2022
Definitely not film...that's way down the road (the progression: interchangeable lens camera -> interesting lens(es) -> passion? -> film camera).
DPReview has an article on Best Cameras under $500. The article is two years old but the camera vendors move slowly. All the recognizable players (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc.) are represented. I'd use that article as a starting point to read up on the different vendors and to see if any of them had released anything newer/different.
posted by mmascolino at 7:17 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
DPReview has an article on Best Cameras under $500. The article is two years old but the camera vendors move slowly. All the recognizable players (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc.) are represented. I'd use that article as a starting point to read up on the different vendors and to see if any of them had released anything newer/different.
posted by mmascolino at 7:17 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, film itself as well as developing are pretty expensive right now. As a rough estimate where I'm located (Quebec) a roll of regular film (~20-24 images) costs at least $20 CAD and developing costs about $10, so you're looking at north of $1 per image, not including the cost of the camera (of course, prices vary wildly depending on where you are, but there's a general film shortage right now so I wouldn't expect to find film TOO much cheaper than that at least for the next 6-12 months). Film is a lot of fun but be prepared for the costs.
Beyond that, I wouldn't necessarily assume she wants an interchangable-lens camera; it's probably worth trying to figure out a bit more detail about what's important to her. For example, there's lots of good and relatively inexpensive cameras out there right now that don't have interchangeable lenses, but DO let you go full manual mode and control a lot of settings.
posted by mekily at 7:19 AM on November 8, 2022
Beyond that, I wouldn't necessarily assume she wants an interchangable-lens camera; it's probably worth trying to figure out a bit more detail about what's important to her. For example, there's lots of good and relatively inexpensive cameras out there right now that don't have interchangeable lenses, but DO let you go full manual mode and control a lot of settings.
posted by mekily at 7:19 AM on November 8, 2022
In the 8-10 or so years after digital cameras became really good but before cellphone cameras became really good, there was a moment for DSLR cameras that had both (1) a bunch of good technology for automatic but still really pretty point-and-shoot picture, and (2) fully customizable settings for more fancypants shooting. They sold a ton of them and now many of them are tucked away in a closet because your iPhone is a solid replacement most of the time. We have a Canon Rebel that has been a reliable camera for a long time.
If you are willing to do a little bit of scouting, good used DSLRs (often with a couple of lenses) are pretty plentiful for under $350. And most take regular old SD cards, which will hold thousands of shots and are easy to transfer to your computer.
posted by AgentRocket at 8:51 AM on November 8, 2022
If you are willing to do a little bit of scouting, good used DSLRs (often with a couple of lenses) are pretty plentiful for under $350. And most take regular old SD cards, which will hold thousands of shots and are easy to transfer to your computer.
posted by AgentRocket at 8:51 AM on November 8, 2022
Response by poster: Sorry, NO FILM. I think it's a "bridge camera" as backseatpilot suggests - somewhere between a big interchangeable lens camera and a little pocket point-and-shoot camera. At the most obvious and childish level, it needs to be black with a sticky-outy lens and look (to the untrained eye is ok) like a professional rig while being easy for beginners to use. I don't want to spend a lot of time learning f-stops and apertures (about which I know nothing) before I can teach her how to use it. Budget is fairly flex.
posted by nkknkk at 9:00 AM on November 8, 2022
posted by nkknkk at 9:00 AM on November 8, 2022
Best answer: I think you should get a mirrorless camera like this one or this one. Why?
1 DSLR are big and heavy, partially because they have a bunch of lenses to get the picture to the viewfinder. But the computer is digitizing the picture already, just put a tiny screen on and you've saved a ton of weight and cost.
2 The lenses can be changed out, it connects to tripods and interfaces to flashes and whatever other stuff you might do.
3 The only reason to ever upgrade is more megapixels and finer grain in poor light. Even so, you'd keep this camera just for times you need something lighter, like traveling.
posted by flimflam at 9:21 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
1 DSLR are big and heavy, partially because they have a bunch of lenses to get the picture to the viewfinder. But the computer is digitizing the picture already, just put a tiny screen on and you've saved a ton of weight and cost.
2 The lenses can be changed out, it connects to tripods and interfaces to flashes and whatever other stuff you might do.
3 The only reason to ever upgrade is more megapixels and finer grain in poor light. Even so, you'd keep this camera just for times you need something lighter, like traveling.
posted by flimflam at 9:21 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Oh, and the linked mirrorless cameras start in "point and shoot" mode, but have all the adjustments one would ever want to do just turning the knob.
posted by flimflam at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flimflam at 9:22 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
A "real" camera is going to have an interchangeable lens system of some sort.
All of the suggestions below come in black, have a stick out lens, and default to an automatic mode that is more or less a "point in this direction and press the button." But the important thing is that they also provide easy access to tweak the aperture, shutter, iso, etc so you can grow into them. If you leave the kit lens on, you can pretend that it is a bridge camera. But if you get the desire to do macro, ultra wide, or telephoto, you can always get a lens that does exactly what you want.
I'm also going to annoy a number of folks above and state that unless you are on a really tight budget, I would also avoid anything with a "legacy" lens mount because those cameras and the entire ecosystem around them is quickly becoming obsolete. So skip any system that uses Nikon F, Canon EF (or M), or other mounts that are no longer under active development. Find something that uses the newer mirrorless systems like the Nikon Z, Canon RF, or Sony E. Yes, this skips right over every single "DSLR" camera out there. They are technological dead ends at this point.
I'd also lean toward one of the big 3: Canon, Nikon, and Sony. (Sorry team micro four thirds.)
Low Cost:
Look for the for the previous version of any camera listed below. (e.g., the Sony A6100 rather than the A6400 or the Nikon Z 6 instead of the Z 6ii). You can pickup a Sony A6000 with two lenses for $500. These may be a bit older but are able to grow into the current generation stuff without starting over from scratch.
Suggestions for low cost "starter" cameras (around $1k with the kit lens). These all have an APS-C/DX sized sensor (~1.5-1.6x vs a 35mm). Get them with the "kit" lens (typically an 18-120mm or so) to start with and then she can add lenses as needed after that. They are also small in size compared to the units below.
Sony A6100
Nikon Z30 or Z50
Canon R10
If you have a bit more cash ($2k+ before the lens which is $1k+): These all have a "Full Frame" (35mm) sized sensor.
Sony A7iii
Nikon Z 5 or Z 6ii
Canon R6 Mark II
If you have more money than you know what to do with (Please don't go here.)
Sony A1 or A7R V
Nikon Z9 or Z 7ii
Canon R3 or R5
The final thing is, if possible, go to a local store (Costco, Best Buy, etc) and have her hold the cameras. Each has a different feel to it. It is best to get a good feel for where the buttons are, how the grip is setup, etc. Some prefer the narrow finger grips, some like the wider ones.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:23 AM on November 8, 2022
All of the suggestions below come in black, have a stick out lens, and default to an automatic mode that is more or less a "point in this direction and press the button." But the important thing is that they also provide easy access to tweak the aperture, shutter, iso, etc so you can grow into them. If you leave the kit lens on, you can pretend that it is a bridge camera. But if you get the desire to do macro, ultra wide, or telephoto, you can always get a lens that does exactly what you want.
I'm also going to annoy a number of folks above and state that unless you are on a really tight budget, I would also avoid anything with a "legacy" lens mount because those cameras and the entire ecosystem around them is quickly becoming obsolete. So skip any system that uses Nikon F, Canon EF (or M), or other mounts that are no longer under active development. Find something that uses the newer mirrorless systems like the Nikon Z, Canon RF, or Sony E. Yes, this skips right over every single "DSLR" camera out there. They are technological dead ends at this point.
I'd also lean toward one of the big 3: Canon, Nikon, and Sony. (Sorry team micro four thirds.)
Low Cost:
Look for the for the previous version of any camera listed below. (e.g., the Sony A6100 rather than the A6400 or the Nikon Z 6 instead of the Z 6ii). You can pickup a Sony A6000 with two lenses for $500. These may be a bit older but are able to grow into the current generation stuff without starting over from scratch.
Suggestions for low cost "starter" cameras (around $1k with the kit lens). These all have an APS-C/DX sized sensor (~1.5-1.6x vs a 35mm). Get them with the "kit" lens (typically an 18-120mm or so) to start with and then she can add lenses as needed after that. They are also small in size compared to the units below.
Sony A6100
Nikon Z30 or Z50
Canon R10
If you have a bit more cash ($2k+ before the lens which is $1k+): These all have a "Full Frame" (35mm) sized sensor.
Sony A7iii
Nikon Z 5 or Z 6ii
Canon R6 Mark II
If you have more money than you know what to do with (Please don't go here.)
Sony A1 or A7R V
Nikon Z9 or Z 7ii
Canon R3 or R5
The final thing is, if possible, go to a local store (Costco, Best Buy, etc) and have her hold the cameras. Each has a different feel to it. It is best to get a good feel for where the buttons are, how the grip is setup, etc. Some prefer the narrow finger grips, some like the wider ones.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:23 AM on November 8, 2022
Response by poster: After reading the post from SegFaultCoreDump, I should update that the budget is flex as long as it's under or around $500. It didn't occur to me that a $3k amateur camera was a thing - showing my ignorance.
posted by nkknkk at 9:40 AM on November 8, 2022
posted by nkknkk at 9:40 AM on November 8, 2022
Best answer: Go to B&H photo and look at the super zoom bridge section. The one you linked to or any of those would be a great first real camera to learn with. She can use it fully automatic, semi, or full manual. One feature you should have is a mount on top for an external flash so that she can take her photography up to the next level. A good flash is great to add fill when shooting portrays in the midday sun. If she gets serious about photography then she can choose her next system, and you will never have to wonder again about what gift to buy her, as there will always be more gear she wants.
No matter which camera you get, one accessory I advocate is a stereophotograph viewer which works for both screens and prints. Easy to shoot 3D photos using the cha-cha method.
posted by Sophont at 9:54 AM on November 8, 2022
No matter which camera you get, one accessory I advocate is a stereophotograph viewer which works for both screens and prints. Easy to shoot 3D photos using the cha-cha method.
posted by Sophont at 9:54 AM on November 8, 2022
Best answer: With a $500 budget, I'd look at the used market from a reputable source like KEH.com:
Sony a6000: $390: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-a6000-black-digital-camera-body-24-3-m-p.html
16-50mm lens: $80: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-16-mm-50-mm-f-3-5-5-6-zoom-lens-for-sony-e.html
55-210mm Lens: $180: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-55-210mm-f-4-5-6-3-e-oss-black-e-mount-autofocus-lens-49.html
The a6000 + 16-50 is a good start. Add other lenses as needed after that. See https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a6000 for the review.
Edit to add: Don't forget the memory card:
https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-64GB-Extreme-UHS-I-SDSDXXY-064G-GN4IN/dp/B07H9J1YXN
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2022
Sony a6000: $390: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-a6000-black-digital-camera-body-24-3-m-p.html
16-50mm lens: $80: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-16-mm-50-mm-f-3-5-5-6-zoom-lens-for-sony-e.html
55-210mm Lens: $180: https://www.keh.com/shop/sony-55-210mm-f-4-5-6-3-e-oss-black-e-mount-autofocus-lens-49.html
The a6000 + 16-50 is a good start. Add other lenses as needed after that. See https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-a6000 for the review.
Edit to add: Don't forget the memory card:
https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-64GB-Extreme-UHS-I-SDSDXXY-064G-GN4IN/dp/B07H9J1YXN
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2022
Best answer: Another happy KEH customer here. Sony, Fuji, and Nikon all make quality gear and the recommendations above are solid, but if you're into Canon my current camera body is an 18 mp Canon T2i, which they have for $184 in Excellent+ condition:
Canon EOS Rebel T2I DSLR Camera Body {18MP}
And a couple of useful intro lenses with autofocus and image stabilization:
$77-89 Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM Autofocus Lens for APS-C DSLR, Black {58}
$176 Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM Autofocus Lens for APS-C DSLR {58}
If a camera body + lenses seems too complicated, she'll probably be okay with one of the bridge cameras mentioned above. An older Nikon all-in-one with a decent optical zoom is what I used after film died and I wanted to dip my toes into digital. She can learn what her preferences really are before investing in a lot of kit that may not be what she actually wants.
posted by indexy at 12:22 PM on November 8, 2022
Canon EOS Rebel T2I DSLR Camera Body {18MP}
And a couple of useful intro lenses with autofocus and image stabilization:
$77-89 Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM Autofocus Lens for APS-C DSLR, Black {58}
$176 Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM Autofocus Lens for APS-C DSLR {58}
If a camera body + lenses seems too complicated, she'll probably be okay with one of the bridge cameras mentioned above. An older Nikon all-in-one with a decent optical zoom is what I used after film died and I wanted to dip my toes into digital. She can learn what her preferences really are before investing in a lot of kit that may not be what she actually wants.
posted by indexy at 12:22 PM on November 8, 2022
Best answer: I started with a Canon Rebel 20 years ago - and now I'm selling prints at the Metafilter Auction! I loved my Rebel. It's a good solid DSLR camera and you can't really go wrong with it. I have bought all my cameras on Ebay and never had a problem but I know, they aren't what they used to be. However, I'd definitely recommend an older Rebel. It will indeed look like a Camera and it takes awesome photos. To make it better, I'd get her a couple extra lenses - besides the kit lens, you do want that, don't buy one that's body only - to go with it. B&H has several of the newer Rebels right at the $500 price point; or you can get an older one for even less - and extend your lens budget. I had that exact camera, by the way, and I loved it so much.
For extra lenses I would recommend getting a fixed lens - a 50 mm is nice for portraits and stuff like that and you learn a lot about composition with a fixed lens - and a long lens. This is I think a decent one, I bet you could find it for $100 on eBay. Or, hey, if she is doing this because Art, then think about a used lensbaby lens. I have a lensbaby fisheye that I use all the time for Art's sake. I didn't have it back when I had the Rebel but it would arguably be even better with it.
Any Canon lens with an EF mount that fits a Rebel will also fit a higher end DSLR so as she moves up she can keep the same lenses, so that's helpful too. Canon lenses with an EF-S mount will NOT move up, so don't buy those.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:26 PM on November 8, 2022
For extra lenses I would recommend getting a fixed lens - a 50 mm is nice for portraits and stuff like that and you learn a lot about composition with a fixed lens - and a long lens. This is I think a decent one, I bet you could find it for $100 on eBay. Or, hey, if she is doing this because Art, then think about a used lensbaby lens. I have a lensbaby fisheye that I use all the time for Art's sake. I didn't have it back when I had the Rebel but it would arguably be even better with it.
Any Canon lens with an EF mount that fits a Rebel will also fit a higher end DSLR so as she moves up she can keep the same lenses, so that's helpful too. Canon lenses with an EF-S mount will NOT move up, so don't buy those.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:26 PM on November 8, 2022
If you yourself are not a professional photographer, see if you can find one who teaches, in your area, and ask their opinion both on cameras and on your child learning. We have a great photographer here who delights in helping people learn photography, and he says - it's not the equipment that makes the photo, it's the photographer.
posted by TimHare at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by TimHare at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's a little on the older side but this bridge camera is pretty cheap (if you can find one) and meets your requirements. How likely do you think it is that she'll keep up with the hobby?
I don't want to spend a lot of time learning f-stops and apertures (about which I know nothing) before I can teach her how to use it.
The key parts are simple. Lower number means more light gets into the camera. This allows for faster shutter speeds in good light and better low light performance at reasonable shutter speeds. A wider aperture also decreases the depth of field (e.g. how much of the frame is artistically blurred out). Like this.
There's more to it but that's all that's needed to start experimenting with it and finding what she likes.
posted by Candleman at 6:55 PM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't want to spend a lot of time learning f-stops and apertures (about which I know nothing) before I can teach her how to use it.
The key parts are simple. Lower number means more light gets into the camera. This allows for faster shutter speeds in good light and better low light performance at reasonable shutter speeds. A wider aperture also decreases the depth of field (e.g. how much of the frame is artistically blurred out). Like this.
There's more to it but that's all that's needed to start experimenting with it and finding what she likes.
posted by Candleman at 6:55 PM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Half of photography these days is "post-processing" in a computer, so expect a call for software in the near future.
I concur with the call for a mirrorless camera. I'm happy with my Olympus OM-5, but I don't recommend Olympus at present because the company is in flux.
I suggest thinking a little bit about how the photos are going to be viewed. For example, most printers still print at 300 dots per inch. For an 8x10, that means 2400x3000 dots. That's more than a typical computer monitor. My camera captures pictures at about 4,600 x 3500. That means a picture can be cropped down by a third or a half without losing noticeable precision. It's a 2.88MB image. A professional camera would record a picture in the 24MB-30MB range, which means a small corner could be blown up to 8x10 without losing precision. In this way, image size can be considered an alternate to telephoto.
Along with shutter speeds and F-stops, comes the issue of auto-focus. The photographer wants to know how it works on some basic level to be sure the camera is focusing on the desired subject, and how to make it behave if it insists on focusing on the bush behind the subject.
posted by SemiSalt at 7:12 AM on November 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I concur with the call for a mirrorless camera. I'm happy with my Olympus OM-5, but I don't recommend Olympus at present because the company is in flux.
I suggest thinking a little bit about how the photos are going to be viewed. For example, most printers still print at 300 dots per inch. For an 8x10, that means 2400x3000 dots. That's more than a typical computer monitor. My camera captures pictures at about 4,600 x 3500. That means a picture can be cropped down by a third or a half without losing noticeable precision. It's a 2.88MB image. A professional camera would record a picture in the 24MB-30MB range, which means a small corner could be blown up to 8x10 without losing precision. In this way, image size can be considered an alternate to telephoto.
Along with shutter speeds and F-stops, comes the issue of auto-focus. The photographer wants to know how it works on some basic level to be sure the camera is focusing on the desired subject, and how to make it behave if it insists on focusing on the bush behind the subject.
posted by SemiSalt at 7:12 AM on November 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I might try to clear-up her definition of “real” before dropping a few hundred on something like the Nikon. By “real” might she simply mean “not my phone”? Or, by “real” could she possibly even mean “film”?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:34 AM on November 8, 2022 [6 favorites]