How Does A Person Realize That They Are Nonbinary?
July 17, 2022 8:10 PM Subscribe
How can I know if I'm nonbinary, or just kidding myself?
Someone pointed out recently that, although I am male, I always roleplay as female characters. I mean sure, who wouldn't want to punch the hell out of someone as Korra or Donna Troy? I have wonder now, though, if always choosing to play a female I'm trying to attach to my female side. How the heck does a nonbinary person learn this?
Someone pointed out recently that, although I am male, I always roleplay as female characters. I mean sure, who wouldn't want to punch the hell out of someone as Korra or Donna Troy? I have wonder now, though, if always choosing to play a female I'm trying to attach to my female side. How the heck does a nonbinary person learn this?
Response by poster: OMG, i just realized that Murderbot is half-machine. It is literally binary.
posted by SPrintF at 8:24 PM on July 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by SPrintF at 8:24 PM on July 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I will try to come back tomorrow with a more detailed answer, but your experience with fiction basically exactly mimics mine and I came out as genderqueer a few years ago.
If you’re asking the question and it sticks with you more than a few minutes of idle pondering… part of you probably knows there’s something going on.
posted by brook horse at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
If you’re asking the question and it sticks with you more than a few minutes of idle pondering… part of you probably knows there’s something going on.
posted by brook horse at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
There are as many experiences of gender as there are people. Some people feel uncomfortable in the gender others expect them to be and don't want to be treated as such. Some feel they need to express elements of another gender they are expected not to. Sounds like it's more the latter for you?
Identifying with a character can be useful information - I identified strong with queer characters long before I thought I was queer.
On the other hand, perhaps the traits you identify with would fit within the scope of (I presume) masculinity if it wasn't so constrained by societal expectations. Gender policing via social expectation makes gender identity more complicated for many folks. It can make some people uncomfortable in their gender in some circumstances in a way that doesn't necessitate a non-binary gender identity.
Many people comfortable with their present gender identity still role play as characters of another gender identity, even predominantly. Maybe reflect on what it is about these characters you identify with and how that could connect to the way you present yourself in real life.
In the end, only you can know this. The phrase non-binary encompasses worlds of difference and nuance and the experience is ultimately unique to each individual.
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
Identifying with a character can be useful information - I identified strong with queer characters long before I thought I was queer.
On the other hand, perhaps the traits you identify with would fit within the scope of (I presume) masculinity if it wasn't so constrained by societal expectations. Gender policing via social expectation makes gender identity more complicated for many folks. It can make some people uncomfortable in their gender in some circumstances in a way that doesn't necessitate a non-binary gender identity.
Many people comfortable with their present gender identity still role play as characters of another gender identity, even predominantly. Maybe reflect on what it is about these characters you identify with and how that could connect to the way you present yourself in real life.
In the end, only you can know this. The phrase non-binary encompasses worlds of difference and nuance and the experience is ultimately unique to each individual.
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
You're nonbinary if you say you're nonbinary. Or agender. Or a man, or a woman. Or genderqueer, or gendershrug, or any other word or combination of words you want. Doesn't matter what your anatomy is, or what clothes you wear, or what people have always called you. What do you FEEL? Gender is a made-up social construct and you can choose which of those describe you best. EDIT: Just had a whole conversation with some folks about how many of us don't love "nonbinary" as a term for various reasons, but it's becoming well-enough known amongst cis folks that it's okay; but others in the conversation outright embraced it because they felt it fit them very well.
Zumbador just posted a question along these lines and I think the answers there would be useful for you as well. :)
posted by curious nu at 8:40 PM on July 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
Zumbador just posted a question along these lines and I think the answers there would be useful for you as well. :)
posted by curious nu at 8:40 PM on July 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
OMG, i just realized that Murderbot is half-machine. It is literally binary.
I mean.. it's not, though.
a) it's not a human, so human gender concepts are applied to it loosely, at best. It selected "n/a" for itself in one of the books, if I recall correctly.
b) it is both machine and organic, AND the fusion of those two things, which can arguably be a third thing all of itself. But: that is anatomy and that is a very different thing from gender, which is social.
posted by curious nu at 8:44 PM on July 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean.. it's not, though.
a) it's not a human, so human gender concepts are applied to it loosely, at best. It selected "n/a" for itself in one of the books, if I recall correctly.
b) it is both machine and organic, AND the fusion of those two things, which can arguably be a third thing all of itself. But: that is anatomy and that is a very different thing from gender, which is social.
posted by curious nu at 8:44 PM on July 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also also: cis people rarely seem to wonder deeply about their own gender. :) It's not impossible, and I've got friends who have dug deep on this and decided, "Actually, I feel okay with this gender and gender presentation I've been doing for a long time." But it's... rare. Often, if you're wondering about this, congratulations! You've found out a new thing about yourself (or recognized a thing you've been avoiding for awhile).
(okay that's three comments in a row I will duck out! happy to chat more in memail)
posted by curious nu at 8:49 PM on July 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
(okay that's three comments in a row I will duck out! happy to chat more in memail)
posted by curious nu at 8:49 PM on July 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
As curious nu mentioned, I'm figuring this out as well at the moment. Along with whether I'm on the autism spectrum.
Something I've discovered is imposter syndrome is incredibly common in these spaces. People feel as if they're faking it. So just the fact that you're feeling uncertain is not proof that you're not genuine.
We live in a world that's hostile to people claiming space for themselves outside of the very narrow lanes that have been defined for them.
You're "just looking for attention" or "doing it because it's trendy" or whatever.
Bullshit. Don't let them stop you from figuring out what works for you.
posted by Zumbador at 9:05 PM on July 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Something I've discovered is imposter syndrome is incredibly common in these spaces. People feel as if they're faking it. So just the fact that you're feeling uncertain is not proof that you're not genuine.
We live in a world that's hostile to people claiming space for themselves outside of the very narrow lanes that have been defined for them.
You're "just looking for attention" or "doing it because it's trendy" or whatever.
Bullshit. Don't let them stop you from figuring out what works for you.
posted by Zumbador at 9:05 PM on July 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks curious nu. I think this is why I raised this question. Is gender really so cut and dried to most people? I've identified as male because that's what people shouted at me all day. As far back as I can recall, I kept away from gross "male" activities like meanness and violence. Have I been wrong all this time, thinking that a good boy can be kind and considerate? Was that just my female side all along?
posted by SPrintF at 9:13 PM on July 17, 2022
posted by SPrintF at 9:13 PM on July 17, 2022
Hey there, I’m also questioning my gender.
The most helpful thing I read when I first started questioning was something along the lines of:
Focus less on the question “What am I?” and more on the question “What makes me feel happy?”
Reading that made something click in my head, and gave me the push I needed to start experimenting with more masculine presentation (I’m AFAB).
Currently, I think I’m probably nonbinary but I’m fine with using she/her pronouns and I don’t really feel the need to tell anyone about my gender identity except for close friends who I already talk about gender stuff with anyway. I present mostly kind of androgynous but play with both masculine and feminine outfits.
So, I’d give the same advice to you. Don’t worry so much about what gender you are, and instead focus more on what you would change in your daily life if you didn’t have to stick to a particular gender.
posted by mekily at 9:53 PM on July 17, 2022 [19 favorites]
The most helpful thing I read when I first started questioning was something along the lines of:
Focus less on the question “What am I?” and more on the question “What makes me feel happy?”
Reading that made something click in my head, and gave me the push I needed to start experimenting with more masculine presentation (I’m AFAB).
Currently, I think I’m probably nonbinary but I’m fine with using she/her pronouns and I don’t really feel the need to tell anyone about my gender identity except for close friends who I already talk about gender stuff with anyway. I present mostly kind of androgynous but play with both masculine and feminine outfits.
So, I’d give the same advice to you. Don’t worry so much about what gender you are, and instead focus more on what you would change in your daily life if you didn’t have to stick to a particular gender.
posted by mekily at 9:53 PM on July 17, 2022 [19 favorites]
A good boy absolutely CAN be kind and considerate! Not all archetypes of masculinity are assholes, and there are many kind and considerate men.
That doesn't say anything about YOU though.
posted by inexorably_forward at 10:21 PM on July 17, 2022 [32 favorites]
That doesn't say anything about YOU though.
posted by inexorably_forward at 10:21 PM on July 17, 2022 [32 favorites]
it's not a spectrum so much as a lightshow. I default socially to she because I do not particularly care, but I do not feel like a she or a he so much as thing. I worried like you that I was an imposter because a lot of people who transition find great meaning and joy in redefining their socially-assigned gender while I am more like, this isn't quite right, but whatever. Then I read about agender and genderqueer people and went ah yes, over here thank you.
People really like boxes, and sometimes with gender they want to switch from two big boxes to a dozen little boxes. But it is a-ok to be a blob for as long as you want, to jump around your boxes or whatever. Enjoy genders.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:30 PM on July 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
People really like boxes, and sometimes with gender they want to switch from two big boxes to a dozen little boxes. But it is a-ok to be a blob for as long as you want, to jump around your boxes or whatever. Enjoy genders.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:30 PM on July 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
Is gender really so cut and dried to most people?
I am female, and I often roleplay male characters and have had dreams where I am a man. I dont identify as non-binary though, I am a woman who isn't particularly feminine. My general feels on gender are *big shrug*, being a woman for the rest of my life is fine, I'm happy, if I woke up as a man tomorrow that would also be fine I think.
You might feel more "you" as non-binary. You might feel more "you" as a man with a strong feminine side. It's worth trying on the non-binary/ genderqueer hat for a while to see if you feel it fits, because it sounds like it might - but a man can be any selection of traits if he wants to be, including gentleness and kindness and other "feminine" aspects.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:31 PM on July 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
I am female, and I often roleplay male characters and have had dreams where I am a man. I dont identify as non-binary though, I am a woman who isn't particularly feminine. My general feels on gender are *big shrug*, being a woman for the rest of my life is fine, I'm happy, if I woke up as a man tomorrow that would also be fine I think.
You might feel more "you" as non-binary. You might feel more "you" as a man with a strong feminine side. It's worth trying on the non-binary/ genderqueer hat for a while to see if you feel it fits, because it sounds like it might - but a man can be any selection of traits if he wants to be, including gentleness and kindness and other "feminine" aspects.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:31 PM on July 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
Have I been wrong all this time, thinking that a good boy can be kind and considerate? Was that just my female side all along?I don't think that it's impossible to be kind and considerate as a man, but I do think you're fighting a uphill battle against societal expectations (in ways both subtle and obvious) if you try. I started noticing a lot more of the ways that my socialization as a boy made me act in ways that weren't in line with who I wanted to be after I stopped thinking of myself as a man and started using they/them pronouns.
You also don't need to "come out as nonbinary" (whatever that means) all at once — I personally don't even really describe myself as nonbinary or genderqueer except on dating apps, where I have to pick some option. I started by changing my pronouns and trying to stop thinking of myself as a man, which led to me feeling more comfortable playing with aspects of my presentation, etc. (I wrote a little more about my history with gender here, which might be interesting to you)
For me, at least, it was pretty easy to try out different pronouns and ways of presentation and see what felt right and stuck. I had some ideas, but I didn't really know what was going to feel good until I tried. Some people do have a much clearer idea of what's likely to feel good, but there are certainly a lot of nonbinary/genderqueer/gendervague people who don't, and who figure it out by just trying stuff out and playing around.
posted by wesleyac at 11:46 PM on July 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is gender really so cut and dried to most people?
Honestly, I don't think it is. I suspect almost everybody experiences some degree of dissatisfaction with their gender, or at least fantasizes about being another sex sometimes. It may be an occasional or passing thing, but I think it's much more common than many people would admit. There are probably a whole lot of people who identify as cisgender but don't totally fit the dictionary definition of the term, and perhaps you're one of them.
But honestly, I think you may have something a little more complicated going on. Just the fact that you're seriously pondering these questions is significant. And then there's this:
I've identified as male because that's what people shouted at me all day.
That's some really dark, heavy language. People shouting anything at you all day would be traumatic as hell, anybody would be desperate to escape that. It makes maleness sound like this grim, oppressive thing that the world forced on you, and I don't think many people who identify as cisgender would describe their relationship with gender that way.
I think you should explore your relationship with gender, but instead of looking at it as a big awful knot to untangle, try to think of it as a fun thing. The goal is to do whatever feels best and makes you happiest. You're not a problem to solve. You're a gift to unwrap.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:53 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I don't think it is. I suspect almost everybody experiences some degree of dissatisfaction with their gender, or at least fantasizes about being another sex sometimes. It may be an occasional or passing thing, but I think it's much more common than many people would admit. There are probably a whole lot of people who identify as cisgender but don't totally fit the dictionary definition of the term, and perhaps you're one of them.
But honestly, I think you may have something a little more complicated going on. Just the fact that you're seriously pondering these questions is significant. And then there's this:
I've identified as male because that's what people shouted at me all day.
That's some really dark, heavy language. People shouting anything at you all day would be traumatic as hell, anybody would be desperate to escape that. It makes maleness sound like this grim, oppressive thing that the world forced on you, and I don't think many people who identify as cisgender would describe their relationship with gender that way.
I think you should explore your relationship with gender, but instead of looking at it as a big awful knot to untangle, try to think of it as a fun thing. The goal is to do whatever feels best and makes you happiest. You're not a problem to solve. You're a gift to unwrap.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:53 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Please stick to answering the question, rather than debating the OP or other commenters. (As for "gross 'male' activities like meanness and violence" — let us assume that OP isn't saying all male activities are gross, or that all males indulge in gross activities.) And OP, please don't make this into a back and forth discussion. Comment if you need to in order to clarify anything, but other than that, just let folks answer. Thanks, all.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:40 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:40 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
For some trans people, their gender is a matter of life or death, and I've seen plenty of online rhetoric along the lines of "it wasn't my choice to be trans, I wouldn't have chosen it if I'd had the choice", which is understandable in a society riddled with messaging about how being trans is such a big deal you should only pursue it if you actively can't bear to live as your assigned gender for another moment.
For me, being non-binary/transmasculine has always felt like a choice. Living as my assigned gender was certainly making me low-grade miserable, but it was never a foregone conclusion that the misery would culminate in an attempt on my life, for example. Social transition absolutely felt like a choice, and it's a choice I'd make again, because it turns out that the modest downsides of being trans in a world where I'm not guaranteed to find acceptance still outweigh the downsides of living as my assigned gender when that wasn't a comfortable role for me.
I believe that full gender liberation means everyone identifying as whatever is most comfortable for them, whether that's an existing socially-sanctioned gender identity or not. I worry a lot about the impression society gives off that being trans is a Big Deal that has to be Formally Diagnosed (usually by a cis person lol), because I think it puts grey-area, I-can-live-as-my-assigned-gender-indefinitely folks off from exploring how they actually feel about their gender and how they want to present. It's a shame that medical transition requires medical professionals to get involved, because I find the idea that being trans is a thing that can (/must) be diagnosed laughable. I think it inhibits experimentation, and more people experimenting more is what gets us closer to breaking down the binary as the default & only acceptable categories for human gender.
I've identified as male because that's what people shouted at me all day.
I can relate to that (and agree with Ursula Hitler's commentary on it above). For a long time I put off exploring my gender further, or transitioning at all even though I knew something was up, because I felt the world expected one female-presenting unit from me and it was my job to play along. I'm glad I stopped playing along. My life is infinitely richer for making that choice.
Currently, I think I’m probably nonbinary but I’m fine with using she/her pronouns and I don’t really feel the need to tell anyone about my gender identity except for close friends who I already talk about gender stuff with anyway.
My journey towards transition also started out like mekily's. For at least a year my non-cis identity was a precious secret that only I knew about. I'd managed to repress the time I spent as a teenager researching transmasculinity online, or the fact that I would add, sotto voce, "but of course I'm not a real woman" when commenting on female gender stuff even as I was still pretending to inhabit that identity, until it became something I couldn't deny to myself any longer. I bought the Kate Bornstein gender workbook, waited for my partner to go out of town to consume it in secret...and then didn't even read it because my subconscious had figured out enough in the background that I was no longer confused.
I thought I was going to be comfortable that way forever at the time, that my transness was a secret I'd happily take to my grave. Then my gender presentation started to grate and I switched to a more androgynous/masculine style, but still used my old pronouns. Then the pronouns began to grate and I came out to my friends and asked them to use different pronouns. I was terrified of coming out at work (I posted this Ask almost 18 months before I actually came out at work) but eventually the grating of having folks call me "she" all day became so intolerable that I had to take that leap of faith. I still haven't changed my name and don't know if I plan to. I want top sugery but it's going to take time to save up the cash and do it privately because I find the UK's gender identity clinic system actively dehumanising and refuse to engage with it. I don't think I want hormones or any surgery beyond that right now, but I'm not cutting off the possibility that future-me might want those things. All of this has been a steady evolution over the past five or six years.
I say all of this to try to illustrate how gradual, iterative and personal these journeys can be. I regret wanting to Know For Sure about my gender to the point where I didn't really enjoy the experimentation phase, or experiment as much as I would have if I hadn't felt self-directed pressure to Just Get There Already. I also see a lot of people online whose trajectories move faster, who realise they're trans and within a year have started hormones & lined up surgeries, and I want to present a counter-offer and to reflect that fact that it's both fine and preferable to take this stuff at your own pace.
I hope you get to enjoy this next phase of your life and your self-understanding, no matter where it leads you.
posted by terretu at 1:41 AM on July 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
For me, being non-binary/transmasculine has always felt like a choice. Living as my assigned gender was certainly making me low-grade miserable, but it was never a foregone conclusion that the misery would culminate in an attempt on my life, for example. Social transition absolutely felt like a choice, and it's a choice I'd make again, because it turns out that the modest downsides of being trans in a world where I'm not guaranteed to find acceptance still outweigh the downsides of living as my assigned gender when that wasn't a comfortable role for me.
I believe that full gender liberation means everyone identifying as whatever is most comfortable for them, whether that's an existing socially-sanctioned gender identity or not. I worry a lot about the impression society gives off that being trans is a Big Deal that has to be Formally Diagnosed (usually by a cis person lol), because I think it puts grey-area, I-can-live-as-my-assigned-gender-indefinitely folks off from exploring how they actually feel about their gender and how they want to present. It's a shame that medical transition requires medical professionals to get involved, because I find the idea that being trans is a thing that can (/must) be diagnosed laughable. I think it inhibits experimentation, and more people experimenting more is what gets us closer to breaking down the binary as the default & only acceptable categories for human gender.
I've identified as male because that's what people shouted at me all day.
I can relate to that (and agree with Ursula Hitler's commentary on it above). For a long time I put off exploring my gender further, or transitioning at all even though I knew something was up, because I felt the world expected one female-presenting unit from me and it was my job to play along. I'm glad I stopped playing along. My life is infinitely richer for making that choice.
Currently, I think I’m probably nonbinary but I’m fine with using she/her pronouns and I don’t really feel the need to tell anyone about my gender identity except for close friends who I already talk about gender stuff with anyway.
My journey towards transition also started out like mekily's. For at least a year my non-cis identity was a precious secret that only I knew about. I'd managed to repress the time I spent as a teenager researching transmasculinity online, or the fact that I would add, sotto voce, "but of course I'm not a real woman" when commenting on female gender stuff even as I was still pretending to inhabit that identity, until it became something I couldn't deny to myself any longer. I bought the Kate Bornstein gender workbook, waited for my partner to go out of town to consume it in secret...and then didn't even read it because my subconscious had figured out enough in the background that I was no longer confused.
I thought I was going to be comfortable that way forever at the time, that my transness was a secret I'd happily take to my grave. Then my gender presentation started to grate and I switched to a more androgynous/masculine style, but still used my old pronouns. Then the pronouns began to grate and I came out to my friends and asked them to use different pronouns. I was terrified of coming out at work (I posted this Ask almost 18 months before I actually came out at work) but eventually the grating of having folks call me "she" all day became so intolerable that I had to take that leap of faith. I still haven't changed my name and don't know if I plan to. I want top sugery but it's going to take time to save up the cash and do it privately because I find the UK's gender identity clinic system actively dehumanising and refuse to engage with it. I don't think I want hormones or any surgery beyond that right now, but I'm not cutting off the possibility that future-me might want those things. All of this has been a steady evolution over the past five or six years.
I say all of this to try to illustrate how gradual, iterative and personal these journeys can be. I regret wanting to Know For Sure about my gender to the point where I didn't really enjoy the experimentation phase, or experiment as much as I would have if I hadn't felt self-directed pressure to Just Get There Already. I also see a lot of people online whose trajectories move faster, who realise they're trans and within a year have started hormones & lined up surgeries, and I want to present a counter-offer and to reflect that fact that it's both fine and preferable to take this stuff at your own pace.
I hope you get to enjoy this next phase of your life and your self-understanding, no matter where it leads you.
posted by terretu at 1:41 AM on July 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm really sorry if I suggested that "all men are gross." I was just trying to say that, as a kid, I never wanted to be "one of the boys." My Father was terrifying so I spent a lot of my life in the public library, avoiding him. Maybe it's just that I had a poor role model for how a man should be.
posted by SPrintF at 2:02 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by SPrintF at 2:02 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Having difficult interactions with highly gendered identities can mean you end up interrogating, or being in tension and conflict with gender, in a way that doesn't happen sans that interaction.
I am cis, as is my partner. I am female, he is male. We both had the experience of going through puberty extremely early and having excessive and obvious secondary sex markers. In other words I am built like a fertility goddess and he is your average blacksmith/nature god. Given we are both cis, you'd expect we never had a gender feels day in our lives, right?
Except we both had a huge amount of discomfort with how society expected us to be, simply due to how we literally embodied our gender. I loathed what I society insisted a woman had to be and was - I bound my chest because I couldn't stand the harassment, I cut off all my hair, then flung violently the other way for a decade and a half because I got so much approval and it was so much easier, and now, from my mid-thirties onwards, have settled into a vaguely butch aesthetic. My partner maintains his long hair, deliberately enculturated a lot of feminine body language and habits, but also has an enormous bushy beard and maintains his body hair and doesn't question his gender as much as critique the expectations. Same as me. But we both spent time being uncomfortable with how our gender identity and gender presentation were supposedly congruent but in reality the societal expectations were tedious, often incorrect, homophobic, and occasionally violent.
An aversion to what society says your gender should be or shouldn't be is...I don't know, perfectly normal and justifiable to me. I don't need my 'masculine side' to exist or not exist to justify my gender or question it. There is a tension between that, and what it feels like to be trans or nonbinary. My kid is nonbinary, that doesn't rely on their androgyny, or behaviour, or non-birth gender 'side' being observable or even existing. They are nonbinary because they are nonbinary.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:35 AM on July 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
I am cis, as is my partner. I am female, he is male. We both had the experience of going through puberty extremely early and having excessive and obvious secondary sex markers. In other words I am built like a fertility goddess and he is your average blacksmith/nature god. Given we are both cis, you'd expect we never had a gender feels day in our lives, right?
Except we both had a huge amount of discomfort with how society expected us to be, simply due to how we literally embodied our gender. I loathed what I society insisted a woman had to be and was - I bound my chest because I couldn't stand the harassment, I cut off all my hair, then flung violently the other way for a decade and a half because I got so much approval and it was so much easier, and now, from my mid-thirties onwards, have settled into a vaguely butch aesthetic. My partner maintains his long hair, deliberately enculturated a lot of feminine body language and habits, but also has an enormous bushy beard and maintains his body hair and doesn't question his gender as much as critique the expectations. Same as me. But we both spent time being uncomfortable with how our gender identity and gender presentation were supposedly congruent but in reality the societal expectations were tedious, often incorrect, homophobic, and occasionally violent.
An aversion to what society says your gender should be or shouldn't be is...I don't know, perfectly normal and justifiable to me. I don't need my 'masculine side' to exist or not exist to justify my gender or question it. There is a tension between that, and what it feels like to be trans or nonbinary. My kid is nonbinary, that doesn't rely on their androgyny, or behaviour, or non-birth gender 'side' being observable or even existing. They are nonbinary because they are nonbinary.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:35 AM on July 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
I mean honestly the range of answers here basically saying "you know you" feels the most on target to me. I'm a nice boy. I have a degree in theatre (I even spell it - re), I always associate with female avatars in games etc, far preferred Judy bloom to the hardy boys, hate "boys will be boys" boys, and on and on. And I have and had zero questions about my gender identity or sexuality.
So I guess said another way, your association with female characters and iconography can absolutely totally be unrelated to your own self description. You may feel free to separately enjoy what and how you want to enjoy it, while simultaneously identifying yourself how you see fit. But does not define the other.
posted by chasles at 6:12 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
So I guess said another way, your association with female characters and iconography can absolutely totally be unrelated to your own self description. You may feel free to separately enjoy what and how you want to enjoy it, while simultaneously identifying yourself how you see fit. But does not define the other.
posted by chasles at 6:12 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
As far back as I can recall, I kept away from gross "male" activities like meanness and violence. Have I been wrong all this time, thinking that a good boy can be kind and considerate? Was that just my female side all along?
I am a cis man, and I definitely feel this. Gender norms absolutely condition AMAB kids to believe that "guys don't have feelings," that boys are supposed to be tough and aggressive and unfeeling and girls are supposed be meek and nurturing. This conditioning begins at a very young age. It is odious, it has always been odious, and its frequent result (for cis men, at the very least) is often an inability to express, understand, or simply feel our own emotions in the first place.
Like you, I had male role models who terrified me with their anger. Like you, I often hate the cruel, absurd, dehumanizing expectations that come with society's definitions of masculinity -- and femininity, for that matter. But, speaking only for myself, society's blundering idiocy doesn't mean I am not a man. Because the critical thing for me is the felt experience -- both physically embodied and emotionally registered -- of what gender feels right to me. And despite all the awful baggage that culture has attached to it, being a man still feels right to me. For all I know, that could change in the future -- gender is a mutable thing -- but for now it still feels right.
[rant] When I am confronted with a particularly unsavory piece of that cultural baggage, I try to remember that there is no such thing as a genuine "masculine virtue" or "feminine virtue" that cannot more accurately be described as a fundamental human virtue. In other words, if Behavior X is not the way that every human being should aspire to behave, then Behavior X should not be aspired to at all. And if society disputes that, then society is wrong and can get on my level. No one gets to tell me who I am except me. [/okay, rant over]
So what feels right to you, what sits right with you, in your body and your mind? To get at the answer(s) to that question, I think mekily had some very good advice upthread when they said, "Don’t worry so much about what gender you are, and instead focus more on what you would change in your daily life if you didn’t have to stick to a particular gender."
posted by cubeb at 6:46 AM on July 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
I am a cis man, and I definitely feel this. Gender norms absolutely condition AMAB kids to believe that "guys don't have feelings," that boys are supposed to be tough and aggressive and unfeeling and girls are supposed be meek and nurturing. This conditioning begins at a very young age. It is odious, it has always been odious, and its frequent result (for cis men, at the very least) is often an inability to express, understand, or simply feel our own emotions in the first place.
Like you, I had male role models who terrified me with their anger. Like you, I often hate the cruel, absurd, dehumanizing expectations that come with society's definitions of masculinity -- and femininity, for that matter. But, speaking only for myself, society's blundering idiocy doesn't mean I am not a man. Because the critical thing for me is the felt experience -- both physically embodied and emotionally registered -- of what gender feels right to me. And despite all the awful baggage that culture has attached to it, being a man still feels right to me. For all I know, that could change in the future -- gender is a mutable thing -- but for now it still feels right.
[rant] When I am confronted with a particularly unsavory piece of that cultural baggage, I try to remember that there is no such thing as a genuine "masculine virtue" or "feminine virtue" that cannot more accurately be described as a fundamental human virtue. In other words, if Behavior X is not the way that every human being should aspire to behave, then Behavior X should not be aspired to at all. And if society disputes that, then society is wrong and can get on my level. No one gets to tell me who I am except me. [/okay, rant over]
So what feels right to you, what sits right with you, in your body and your mind? To get at the answer(s) to that question, I think mekily had some very good advice upthread when they said, "Don’t worry so much about what gender you are, and instead focus more on what you would change in your daily life if you didn’t have to stick to a particular gender."
posted by cubeb at 6:46 AM on July 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also also: cis people rarely seem to wonder deeply about their own gender. :) It's not impossible, and I've got friends who have dug deep on this and decided, "Actually, I feel okay with this gender and gender presentation I've been doing for a long time." But it's... rare. Often, if you're wondering about this, congratulations! You've found out a new thing about yourself (or recognized a thing you've been avoiding for awhile).
I think my honest, off-the-cuff answer is basically this. Plenty of cis people have strong opinions on their culture's traditional gender presentations but to actually even ask yourself if you might be nonbinary is something that people who are plain vanilla cis just don't do in my experience (which is not universal but includes a lot of people who have politics hostile to rigid genders and environments where being open about this wouldn't compromise their safety).
posted by atrazine at 6:55 AM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think my honest, off-the-cuff answer is basically this. Plenty of cis people have strong opinions on their culture's traditional gender presentations but to actually even ask yourself if you might be nonbinary is something that people who are plain vanilla cis just don't do in my experience (which is not universal but includes a lot of people who have politics hostile to rigid genders and environments where being open about this wouldn't compromise their safety).
posted by atrazine at 6:55 AM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
to actually even ask yourself if you might be nonbinary is something that people who are plain vanilla cis just don't do in my experience
Sure they do. People are naturally inquisitive and more complicated than we assume.
I always roleplay as
You are allowed to roleplay as a character who is different from yourself, even multiple times, even consistently. The novelty is what makes it play.
Be whatever you want, but because of how you yourself feel and what you want. Please don't overburden "play" with portents. If we make play too significant and insist on reading things into it, it becomes less like play.
posted by amtho at 7:06 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sure they do. People are naturally inquisitive and more complicated than we assume.
I always roleplay as
You are allowed to roleplay as a character who is different from yourself, even multiple times, even consistently. The novelty is what makes it play.
Be whatever you want, but because of how you yourself feel and what you want. Please don't overburden "play" with portents. If we make play too significant and insist on reading things into it, it becomes less like play.
posted by amtho at 7:06 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Which is to say: you may have other reasons for thinking you may be nonbinary. Sometimes I wish everyone was nonbinary. But please don't pressure yourself at all just because of role playing.
posted by amtho at 7:13 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 7:13 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nthing all the people above who say that these things mean you could be nonbinary, if you feel like you are, but they don't mean you must be nonbinary. If questioning the worst aspects of societal masculine ideals meant you weren't a man, that would mean that being a man requires or is coextensive with the worst aspects of societal masculine ideals, and I don't think any of us want to say that, right?
I mean, it sounds to me like you're reverse-engineering evidence because you feel like you want to explore a different or more expansive gender identity, and in that case, you should! I just want to caution against reifying this particular evidence too much. If all AMAB people who operated outside traditional masculinity were not men, that would be really dreadful news for men.
posted by babelfish at 8:06 AM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
I mean, it sounds to me like you're reverse-engineering evidence because you feel like you want to explore a different or more expansive gender identity, and in that case, you should! I just want to caution against reifying this particular evidence too much. If all AMAB people who operated outside traditional masculinity were not men, that would be really dreadful news for men.
posted by babelfish at 8:06 AM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
to actually even ask yourself if you might be nonbinary is something that people who are plain vanilla cis just don't do in my experience
I mean, I don't know if I'm "plain vanilla" cis, but I'm definitely cis, and I have definitely done this quite extensively. Gender certainly doesn't feel cut and dried to me, but 'woman' feels right, which is of course partially because it has been yelled at me all this time--but there's no immutable truth in any of it. Asking yourself these questions might be a sign that you're non-binary, but it might also be a sign that you're a thoughtful person with some questions about how gender is constructed and experienced in daily life. It might be a sign that you're a feminist! All of these are great things to be! And really, you're the only one who can figure out which one(s) you are.
posted by dizziest at 8:19 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, I don't know if I'm "plain vanilla" cis, but I'm definitely cis, and I have definitely done this quite extensively. Gender certainly doesn't feel cut and dried to me, but 'woman' feels right, which is of course partially because it has been yelled at me all this time--but there's no immutable truth in any of it. Asking yourself these questions might be a sign that you're non-binary, but it might also be a sign that you're a thoughtful person with some questions about how gender is constructed and experienced in daily life. It might be a sign that you're a feminist! All of these are great things to be! And really, you're the only one who can figure out which one(s) you are.
posted by dizziest at 8:19 AM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
Thank you for asking this question!
I'm a cishet guy and I have thought about this a lot, and continue to think about it. Well, not "am I nb," necessarily, but "what is gender to me and how do I fit in?"
I don't know that I agree with "if you've thought about gender, you're probably not cishet." In my case, I decided that I'm pretty furious with how society talks about / expects men to be. Does not wanting to live that set of expectations make me not-male? I'm not really sure and I guess I have passing privilege to not worry too much about it, because unless I explicitly told someone otherwise, they'd assume I'm a guy, and.. honestly I'm fine with that? I guess I could externally code for less-stereotypically-male, as a way of differentiating myself visually (and to some extent I do -- long hair and a beard because why not?), but I don't have extremely strong feelings about it one way or the other.
In another thread a while ago, I mentioned to someone thinking about a name change that I believed they shouldn't avoid a perfectly fine word ("hearth") just because some white supremacists had used it as part of their imagery. I guess I feel a little bit the same way about "man." I don't want to give up that concept because some men are jerks, and the label is still useful to me because it encodes some things that are true about me, too. At the same time, there are significant aspects of how society thinks about "man" that I'm just not okay with. What to do about that? Like I said, I have passing privilege and I get away with not stressing over it too much even while trying to be less living-those-negative-stereotypes, but maybe that's a lazy answer.
I'm not saying you're not non-binary, or you shouldn't explore what being non-binary would mean to you, for certain!
posted by Alterscape at 8:54 AM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm a cishet guy and I have thought about this a lot, and continue to think about it. Well, not "am I nb," necessarily, but "what is gender to me and how do I fit in?"
I don't know that I agree with "if you've thought about gender, you're probably not cishet." In my case, I decided that I'm pretty furious with how society talks about / expects men to be. Does not wanting to live that set of expectations make me not-male? I'm not really sure and I guess I have passing privilege to not worry too much about it, because unless I explicitly told someone otherwise, they'd assume I'm a guy, and.. honestly I'm fine with that? I guess I could externally code for less-stereotypically-male, as a way of differentiating myself visually (and to some extent I do -- long hair and a beard because why not?), but I don't have extremely strong feelings about it one way or the other.
In another thread a while ago, I mentioned to someone thinking about a name change that I believed they shouldn't avoid a perfectly fine word ("hearth") just because some white supremacists had used it as part of their imagery. I guess I feel a little bit the same way about "man." I don't want to give up that concept because some men are jerks, and the label is still useful to me because it encodes some things that are true about me, too. At the same time, there are significant aspects of how society thinks about "man" that I'm just not okay with. What to do about that? Like I said, I have passing privilege and I get away with not stressing over it too much even while trying to be less living-those-negative-stereotypes, but maybe that's a lazy answer.
I'm not saying you're not non-binary, or you shouldn't explore what being non-binary would mean to you, for certain!
posted by Alterscape at 8:54 AM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
In case it helps as a framework, something I'm seeing in these answers (and something I've thought about a LOT as a cishet female feminist) is societal gender roles vs. personal gender. Societal gender roles are how other people think men or women "should be," and in my opinion, they are generally trash in mainstream society. I firmly reject huge aspects of mainstream societal gender roles. That said, my personal gender is still female, because that's just... who I am. The thought of being coded as male, or nonbinary, or the various other genders that my friends have, just feels not-me.
Because women's societal gender roles have been used to keep us out of power, and because we've had to push against them in order to do things like "vote" and "own property" and such, women as a group have been thinking about and questioning gender roles for a very long time, in ways that cishet men have (I think) just started to do more in the last few decades. Setting aside societal gender roles that don't work for one individually could absolutely also inspire setting aside personal gender identities that don't work for one, but they don't have to. It may be worth playing around in that framework a bit to see where the itchiness is -- societal expectations about men, or your internal feeling about yourself (or both!).
posted by lapis at 9:18 AM on July 18, 2022 [11 favorites]
Because women's societal gender roles have been used to keep us out of power, and because we've had to push against them in order to do things like "vote" and "own property" and such, women as a group have been thinking about and questioning gender roles for a very long time, in ways that cishet men have (I think) just started to do more in the last few decades. Setting aside societal gender roles that don't work for one individually could absolutely also inspire setting aside personal gender identities that don't work for one, but they don't have to. It may be worth playing around in that framework a bit to see where the itchiness is -- societal expectations about men, or your internal feeling about yourself (or both!).
posted by lapis at 9:18 AM on July 18, 2022 [11 favorites]
My gender always feel like something that people were doing to me against my will, and it wasn't until I was in my thirties that I realized that (1) I am non-binary; (2) I didn't have to realize this is a kid or a young adult in order for it to be true and valid; (3) Wow, so many things about my childhood and young adulthood make so much more sense when viewed through the lens of "I'm non-binary and that has unfortunately been a problem for other people throughout my life, especially my caregivers"; (4) There is no wrong way to be a non-binary person; (5) My gender is valid even if it doesn't make sense to other people. Even if it makes them feel bad.
I've heard that there are gender workbooks that are useful for people, but I didn't try one. Maybe someone else has a more specific recommendation for a workbook. Watching non-binary people on television and in movies helped solidify things for me, because I just felt represented and seen, once I was able to identify with it.
posted by twelve cent archie at 9:35 AM on July 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've heard that there are gender workbooks that are useful for people, but I didn't try one. Maybe someone else has a more specific recommendation for a workbook. Watching non-binary people on television and in movies helped solidify things for me, because I just felt represented and seen, once I was able to identify with it.
posted by twelve cent archie at 9:35 AM on July 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
OK. So. I had been thinking about this question a lot for myself and I came to the conclusion that there was nothing inherently gendered about me. I was assigned female at birth and all my societal messaging made that assumption and I grew in response to that messaging - sometimes towards it (leaning into a femme presentation) and sometimes away from it ('tomboy'). THat messaging and the experiences I had, including and particularly the negative have shaped my understanding of my gender. For me then the choice would be to either redefine femaleness for myself or throw off the gender binary all together. (That in itself is very binary of course - it isn't as simple as having to choose one or the other.)
But now I can see the way femaleness has been presented to me I can recreate what that means for myself or I can decide the concept of gender doesn't fit at all. And I'm not sure where I am yet.
I am a larper and I understand about roleplay. Sometimes when I roleplay as NB characters and get referred to a 'they' it feels right. We are fed the narrative that to be trans one has to be utterly miserable with the way they are seen. I'm not sure that's always true. Sometimes something else just feels more correct.
Gender is flexible. You do not need to decide now and be bound to it forever.
posted by Laura_J at 11:13 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
But now I can see the way femaleness has been presented to me I can recreate what that means for myself or I can decide the concept of gender doesn't fit at all. And I'm not sure where I am yet.
I am a larper and I understand about roleplay. Sometimes when I roleplay as NB characters and get referred to a 'they' it feels right. We are fed the narrative that to be trans one has to be utterly miserable with the way they are seen. I'm not sure that's always true. Sometimes something else just feels more correct.
Gender is flexible. You do not need to decide now and be bound to it forever.
posted by Laura_J at 11:13 AM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Feminine and masculine are cultural definitions. I remember being floored the first time I had discussions with certain transwomen in the eighties, because so much of what I considered feminine was emphatically masculine in their definition, and they were creating definitions which excluded the majority of the confident cis women that I knew at that time. Apparently to these individuals being feminine/female was centred first around wearing capris, and secondarily around wearing make up and getting hair styled into certain cuts. I don't know if they would have modified their definitions by now, as gender discussions have gotten deeper in the last few decades, but the thing is, if their definition of feminine and female was applied specifically to them and not to all women, they were not wrong. If they believed wearing capris and foundation and big hair made them feminine and they were women, they were. They just were wrong in thinking that their definitions of woman and of feminine had to be applied to other people. They were as wrong as the people who were scoffing at the idea of them being women. You can't define anyone else's gender. You have no way to know.
So much of what we consider masculine or feminine traits are completely different across cultures and across history. If capris are the the litmus test for gender then women have only existed in a small portion of history and a limited part of the planet. Similarly if being big, brutal and a bully, prone to violence is the definition of a man, there are a heck of a lot of people who consider themselves cis men who are not men, and a heck of a lot of people who consider themselves cis women, who are not women. You can't define gender by traits and behaviour unless you only apply that definition to yourself.
You seem to be talking about being able to empathize with and identify with females as potentially making you binary. I think for a lot of men who can empathize with and identify with females, but who consider themselves cis male that won't work, but it could work for you. It clearly can't apply to everyone as a gender identifier - there are plenty of writers and actors who can identify with and empathize with females better than a lot of cis women can, but who have no doubt they are emphatically and indisputably male. It doesn't matter what they think. It matters what YOU think. Does your affinity for playing female characters make you female in any way?
And the answer is, do you WANT it to make you female? If you want it to mean that you are binary, or genderfluid, or trans, or heterosexual it means just that. Gender and identity is something you construct and play with and work with and enjoy. YOU get to decide what playing female characters means according to if it works for you today. Tomorrow you get to change your mind. Capris may go so far out of fashion that wearing them will only define you as old. You get to change when and how you define your own gender.
You are what you identify as. And at this time you seem to identify as someone who is questioning. As you read these replies you can flip flop... "Guess I am not binary... guess I am binary... guess I don't know." Your gender is part of your personal identity, so until you change your mind your gender stays the same. As soon as you change your mind it changes along with you. Gender is no more necessarily a static thing than being happy is.
In the long run your definition will probably be complicated "I'm generally a masculine person, but when I am creative I am non binary. When I am with other guys I am really masculine-competitive, all male, and I don't like it but when I get away from them I start to drift into being much more complex..." That is a valid definition. Other people have similar definitions of their gender. A cis woman might say, "I'm really feminine, I am an abundant earth mother. I am fecund and creative. SO feminine. But other women don't think of me as feminine at all. They see my practical clothes and try to compete with me to be frilly and pink dress pretty so that they can get an easy win. They hold my type of feminine in contempt. This makes me feel inadequate about my femininity. I don't seem to measure up." She's not going to go into that detail unless you make her comfortable enough to discuss it in detail. She's just going to tick the box marked X without thinking about it. Yet she has just as complex a definition of gender identity as you do. Nobody who has ever given any thought to their gender has a simple definition.
Complex gender identities are normal. Changing gender identities are normal. Having gender identity goals is normal. Refusing to have gender identity goals is normal. All that counts is if the identity you develop is one that makes you happy. You could identify as a construction and if that identity worked for you, it would be a reasonable one. You do have enough micro particle of plastic inside you to be making a big difference to your endocrine functioning, and you probably have fillings in your teeth. So even that definition is up for grabs. If it makes you comfortable and provides insight into who you are, it's right.
Now getting OTHER people to validate your identity is completely another thing. And it's a dead end because nobody parses the definition of gender down the same way. If I agree with you that you are binary or non binary we are assuming our definitions match. But as soon as we get deep in discussion about what it means to be binary we are going to find places where our definitions diverge. Nobody else can really validate your identity because nobody else can actually get a grasp on your complexity. In fact getting a grasp of your own identity is something you have to work on over your entire lifetime. You can either ignore the question as not interesting, or not safe, or too much work, or you can question it. You'll only have a simple answer with a one word definition if you barely think about it at all.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:29 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
So much of what we consider masculine or feminine traits are completely different across cultures and across history. If capris are the the litmus test for gender then women have only existed in a small portion of history and a limited part of the planet. Similarly if being big, brutal and a bully, prone to violence is the definition of a man, there are a heck of a lot of people who consider themselves cis men who are not men, and a heck of a lot of people who consider themselves cis women, who are not women. You can't define gender by traits and behaviour unless you only apply that definition to yourself.
You seem to be talking about being able to empathize with and identify with females as potentially making you binary. I think for a lot of men who can empathize with and identify with females, but who consider themselves cis male that won't work, but it could work for you. It clearly can't apply to everyone as a gender identifier - there are plenty of writers and actors who can identify with and empathize with females better than a lot of cis women can, but who have no doubt they are emphatically and indisputably male. It doesn't matter what they think. It matters what YOU think. Does your affinity for playing female characters make you female in any way?
And the answer is, do you WANT it to make you female? If you want it to mean that you are binary, or genderfluid, or trans, or heterosexual it means just that. Gender and identity is something you construct and play with and work with and enjoy. YOU get to decide what playing female characters means according to if it works for you today. Tomorrow you get to change your mind. Capris may go so far out of fashion that wearing them will only define you as old. You get to change when and how you define your own gender.
You are what you identify as. And at this time you seem to identify as someone who is questioning. As you read these replies you can flip flop... "Guess I am not binary... guess I am binary... guess I don't know." Your gender is part of your personal identity, so until you change your mind your gender stays the same. As soon as you change your mind it changes along with you. Gender is no more necessarily a static thing than being happy is.
In the long run your definition will probably be complicated "I'm generally a masculine person, but when I am creative I am non binary. When I am with other guys I am really masculine-competitive, all male, and I don't like it but when I get away from them I start to drift into being much more complex..." That is a valid definition. Other people have similar definitions of their gender. A cis woman might say, "I'm really feminine, I am an abundant earth mother. I am fecund and creative. SO feminine. But other women don't think of me as feminine at all. They see my practical clothes and try to compete with me to be frilly and pink dress pretty so that they can get an easy win. They hold my type of feminine in contempt. This makes me feel inadequate about my femininity. I don't seem to measure up." She's not going to go into that detail unless you make her comfortable enough to discuss it in detail. She's just going to tick the box marked X without thinking about it. Yet she has just as complex a definition of gender identity as you do. Nobody who has ever given any thought to their gender has a simple definition.
Complex gender identities are normal. Changing gender identities are normal. Having gender identity goals is normal. Refusing to have gender identity goals is normal. All that counts is if the identity you develop is one that makes you happy. You could identify as a construction and if that identity worked for you, it would be a reasonable one. You do have enough micro particle of plastic inside you to be making a big difference to your endocrine functioning, and you probably have fillings in your teeth. So even that definition is up for grabs. If it makes you comfortable and provides insight into who you are, it's right.
Now getting OTHER people to validate your identity is completely another thing. And it's a dead end because nobody parses the definition of gender down the same way. If I agree with you that you are binary or non binary we are assuming our definitions match. But as soon as we get deep in discussion about what it means to be binary we are going to find places where our definitions diverge. Nobody else can really validate your identity because nobody else can actually get a grasp on your complexity. In fact getting a grasp of your own identity is something you have to work on over your entire lifetime. You can either ignore the question as not interesting, or not safe, or too much work, or you can question it. You'll only have a simple answer with a one word definition if you barely think about it at all.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:29 AM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Another non-answer from someone also pondering similar things: I'm hanging out in the Venn diagram overlap right now between "somewhat unconventional cis woman" and "non-binary". Realizing that they *do* have overlap was helpful for me. I'm feeling pretty OK about hanging out here for as much as I want or need to, maybe I'll declare some stronger allegiance one way or another, but I don't think I have to and I don't think you have to either if that sense of knowing isn't there! What I'm interested in noticing for myself now is: OK, so all kinds of labels are out there, all kinds of presentation and pronoun options are out there, but if we don't assume that there's a hidden Right Answer/true core self/puzzle I have to solve, what are the things I actually want for me, with no expectations or pressure to conform to any one thing? It's still hard for me think about what I want, but it feels better to treat it as a set of mysterious and interesting possibilities instead of as a riddle I'm supposed to get right.
posted by rivenwanderer at 11:32 AM on July 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rivenwanderer at 11:32 AM on July 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am the parent of young children in a progressive city in a progressive country, and it's been really interesting to see how my kids are learning about gender identity.... it's a bit connected to how consent is taught; basically "you're allowed to feel how you feel and you don't have to defend it."
So similar to what people said above; give yourself permission to try on gender identities. It's ok to test it out. There is no pass/fail judgment on whether you're "suchandsuch enough" to "qualify" as really suchandsuch.
This is also an area where social media can actually be helpful - there are thoughtful, inspiring, creative people out there who are sharing their lives on instagram etc who might give you ideas to react against as either "wow I wish I could do that" or "that is not my vibe". Uncle_kaleb is fun to follow, he's a transguy and drag queen and a wonderful storyteller.
posted by dotparker at 12:58 PM on July 18, 2022
So similar to what people said above; give yourself permission to try on gender identities. It's ok to test it out. There is no pass/fail judgment on whether you're "suchandsuch enough" to "qualify" as really suchandsuch.
This is also an area where social media can actually be helpful - there are thoughtful, inspiring, creative people out there who are sharing their lives on instagram etc who might give you ideas to react against as either "wow I wish I could do that" or "that is not my vibe". Uncle_kaleb is fun to follow, he's a transguy and drag queen and a wonderful storyteller.
posted by dotparker at 12:58 PM on July 18, 2022
"As far back as I can recall, I kept away from gross "male" activities like meanness and violence. Have I been wrong all this time, thinking that a good boy can be kind and considerate? Was that just my female side all along?"
Meanness and violence are in no way inherently "male". Kindness and consideration are in no way inherently "female". Those attributes are independent of both societally defined gender and biological sex.
Your preferred character gender in RPGs doesn't necessarily mean much of anything. I know a guy who identifies as male (and is biologically XY) and is a strong believer in traditional gender norms - but he almost always plays female characters in our D&D campaigns. I'm male myself, but I'll sometimes play female characters in video games if I like the character or the esthetic or just for a change of pace.
Or it might mean something important to you. "Gender" doesn't have to mean anything other than what you want it to. Maybe you're kind and sensitive, maybe you're brash and abrasive, maybe you like football, maybe you like sewing, maybe you like having sex with men, or with women, maybe you like wearing skirts, maybe you like wearing three piece suits. None of that means that you're male or you're female or you're non-binary or any other particular label someone might put on you.
There are people who are wired so that for some reason it is very important for their mental health to have a particular gender label applied to them. Sometimes that extends to the need for medical treatment to alter their bodies to better align with their gender identities. If you find it's important for your mental health to be identified as non-binary rather than male or female, then go for it. Heck, if it's not an overwhelming psychological need, but it just makes you happy to not identify with the traditional labels, then that's fine too. Your biological sex is relevant to your doctor, to certain sporting leagues you might want to compete in, and probably any individuals who you might potentially enter into a sexual relationship with. Other than that, use whatever label makes you happy.
posted by tdismukes at 1:32 PM on July 18, 2022
Meanness and violence are in no way inherently "male". Kindness and consideration are in no way inherently "female". Those attributes are independent of both societally defined gender and biological sex.
Your preferred character gender in RPGs doesn't necessarily mean much of anything. I know a guy who identifies as male (and is biologically XY) and is a strong believer in traditional gender norms - but he almost always plays female characters in our D&D campaigns. I'm male myself, but I'll sometimes play female characters in video games if I like the character or the esthetic or just for a change of pace.
Or it might mean something important to you. "Gender" doesn't have to mean anything other than what you want it to. Maybe you're kind and sensitive, maybe you're brash and abrasive, maybe you like football, maybe you like sewing, maybe you like having sex with men, or with women, maybe you like wearing skirts, maybe you like wearing three piece suits. None of that means that you're male or you're female or you're non-binary or any other particular label someone might put on you.
There are people who are wired so that for some reason it is very important for their mental health to have a particular gender label applied to them. Sometimes that extends to the need for medical treatment to alter their bodies to better align with their gender identities. If you find it's important for your mental health to be identified as non-binary rather than male or female, then go for it. Heck, if it's not an overwhelming psychological need, but it just makes you happy to not identify with the traditional labels, then that's fine too. Your biological sex is relevant to your doctor, to certain sporting leagues you might want to compete in, and probably any individuals who you might potentially enter into a sexual relationship with. Other than that, use whatever label makes you happy.
posted by tdismukes at 1:32 PM on July 18, 2022
How can I know if I'm nonbinary, or just kidding myself?
For some people it works like that. There's a right answer and a wrong answer, and it is clear to them.
But some people get to choose. It sounds like you might be one of those people who get to choose. Make the choice that feels good, and that expresses the truest, best version of you. And then let it evolve.
Be open to the possibility that there isn't a right answer, and that you have the power to create who you want to be. Then be that person, and enjoy it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:13 PM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
For some people it works like that. There's a right answer and a wrong answer, and it is clear to them.
But some people get to choose. It sounds like you might be one of those people who get to choose. Make the choice that feels good, and that expresses the truest, best version of you. And then let it evolve.
Be open to the possibility that there isn't a right answer, and that you have the power to create who you want to be. Then be that person, and enjoy it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:13 PM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
In case it helps as a framework, something I'm seeing in these answers (and something I've thought about a LOT as a cishet female feminist) is societal gender roles vs. personal gender.
This is very useful. But I've been thinking about it, and I need to complicate it a bit.
In my own case, I've discovered that there is a significant overlap with being autistic / neurodivergent, and confusing gender stuff. Apparently that's common for a lot of neurodivergent people. Big overlap there.
So another common ND experience is alexythemia, or not being sure what emotion I'm experiencing. Another thing is being overly influenced by the feelings of people around me, to the point of not being sure what feelings are theirs, and which are mine.
And yet another is having to consciously learn social behavior that NT people absorb and learn without having to be aware of it. Like how to smile and make eye contact. In my case, smiling and most eye contact comes naturally, but there are other things that don't.
So with all of this, for me, internal and external are not that easy to seperate. Or to determine in the first place.
For me, the way I first realised that something is going on with my gender identity, is realising how I feel when people refer to me as a woman. I always kind of go "Huh. Really? Oh yeah I guess it makes sense you think I'm a woman" and sometimes I feel almost flattered, and pleased, as if it's nice they were fooled, but they obviously don't really know me.
And when I was a child, I was often asked "are you a boy or a girl". I HATED that. But the reason was only a little bit that I didn't like them thinking I was a boy. The real problem was because I *really* didn't want to answer "I'm a girl".
So what I'm trying to say to the OP is that it can help to just observe yourself and see how you react to things.
For example, in reading the answers in this thread, I'm interested to take note of my assumptions about the gender identities of the writers of each comment. If a comment comes across as being carefully framed and self aware, and taking care not to step on the reader's toes, I tend to assume that the writer is either female, or not-cis.
But if it's a bit self important, defensive, and maybe a little tone deaf, I assume that the writer is cis-male.
That tells me about my own assumptions about gender, and helps me understand myself a bit better.
posted by Zumbador at 9:50 PM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is very useful. But I've been thinking about it, and I need to complicate it a bit.
In my own case, I've discovered that there is a significant overlap with being autistic / neurodivergent, and confusing gender stuff. Apparently that's common for a lot of neurodivergent people. Big overlap there.
So another common ND experience is alexythemia, or not being sure what emotion I'm experiencing. Another thing is being overly influenced by the feelings of people around me, to the point of not being sure what feelings are theirs, and which are mine.
And yet another is having to consciously learn social behavior that NT people absorb and learn without having to be aware of it. Like how to smile and make eye contact. In my case, smiling and most eye contact comes naturally, but there are other things that don't.
So with all of this, for me, internal and external are not that easy to seperate. Or to determine in the first place.
For me, the way I first realised that something is going on with my gender identity, is realising how I feel when people refer to me as a woman. I always kind of go "Huh. Really? Oh yeah I guess it makes sense you think I'm a woman" and sometimes I feel almost flattered, and pleased, as if it's nice they were fooled, but they obviously don't really know me.
And when I was a child, I was often asked "are you a boy or a girl". I HATED that. But the reason was only a little bit that I didn't like them thinking I was a boy. The real problem was because I *really* didn't want to answer "I'm a girl".
So what I'm trying to say to the OP is that it can help to just observe yourself and see how you react to things.
For example, in reading the answers in this thread, I'm interested to take note of my assumptions about the gender identities of the writers of each comment. If a comment comes across as being carefully framed and self aware, and taking care not to step on the reader's toes, I tend to assume that the writer is either female, or not-cis.
But if it's a bit self important, defensive, and maybe a little tone deaf, I assume that the writer is cis-male.
That tells me about my own assumptions about gender, and helps me understand myself a bit better.
posted by Zumbador at 9:50 PM on July 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm a cis woman who grew up feeling like everyone was shouting at me for being a girl the wrong way. When I met some trans and non-binary people, I found some of their experiences very relatable, and I started to question if I was cis after all. I did the Bornstein workbook (because an important part of my identity is that I *love* a good workbook!) and tried some different styles to see how they made me feel. Turns out I'm definitely a cis woman and I really like being one. That might seem like a waste of time, but the exploration and conversations with people who've thought a lot about gender were fun and satisfying. I learned a lot about myself and my friends and society. I feel more confident in my gender expression and better able to be a good friend to people who are figuring out how to express theirs.
So I agree with all the folks above who recommend that you play with the idea of being non-binary and see where it takes you. Because if you're non-binary, you'll have gotten to know yourself better. And if you're not, you'll still have gotten to know yourself better. There's no downside to just exploring the possibilities.
If we all start questioning the gender binary, the way that so many Kids These Days are doing, we might actually create a society where discovering that you aren't cis is a pleasant non-event instead of a big traumatic deal. That seems like a worthwhile side-effect of figuring out your own self.
posted by harriet vane at 4:01 AM on July 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
So I agree with all the folks above who recommend that you play with the idea of being non-binary and see where it takes you. Because if you're non-binary, you'll have gotten to know yourself better. And if you're not, you'll still have gotten to know yourself better. There's no downside to just exploring the possibilities.
If we all start questioning the gender binary, the way that so many Kids These Days are doing, we might actually create a society where discovering that you aren't cis is a pleasant non-event instead of a big traumatic deal. That seems like a worthwhile side-effect of figuring out your own self.
posted by harriet vane at 4:01 AM on July 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm a cis woman, probably, who is neurodivergent and spent a bunch of time questioning my gender on the basis of, basically, not feeling girly. Like if I were male that would also be fine - gender is a thing society put in place to roughly block out expected reproductive capability, gender roles are insane and oppressive in their entirely, and I plan to ignore them in full at all times. So if I don't "aspire" to femininity (like if housewife influencer media makes me sick, and I don't wear makeup...), am I "really" non binary?
But I don't like that answer. If you try to tell me I'm not a real woman because I am a hobbyist mechanic and work in a male-dominated field I will cut you, it infuriates me to have my woman-ness reduced down to an object of femininity and to have my real accomplishments as "a woman in my field" erased.
The realization that made me go, ok, I do have a female-spectrum gender identity beyond the chip on my shoulder was thinking on the long tradition of strong take-charge women in my family and realizing my gender is "woman who likes to be in charge", and if society right now doesn't think women should want to be in charge that's really a problem with society not with me. But finding an expression that really clicked with me made such a difference to feeling confident in that.
So you've got some exploring and thinking to do, and maybe you'll read a bunch of poetry and go to men's retreats and find that "sensitive man who isn't scared to be seen as feminine sometimes and is interested in the full humanity of the women around him" resonates with you, or maybe you'll find nonbinary or butch woman or something else hits that spot. Maybe it'll change.
posted by Lady Li at 6:33 AM on July 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
But I don't like that answer. If you try to tell me I'm not a real woman because I am a hobbyist mechanic and work in a male-dominated field I will cut you, it infuriates me to have my woman-ness reduced down to an object of femininity and to have my real accomplishments as "a woman in my field" erased.
The realization that made me go, ok, I do have a female-spectrum gender identity beyond the chip on my shoulder was thinking on the long tradition of strong take-charge women in my family and realizing my gender is "woman who likes to be in charge", and if society right now doesn't think women should want to be in charge that's really a problem with society not with me. But finding an expression that really clicked with me made such a difference to feeling confident in that.
So you've got some exploring and thinking to do, and maybe you'll read a bunch of poetry and go to men's retreats and find that "sensitive man who isn't scared to be seen as feminine sometimes and is interested in the full humanity of the women around him" resonates with you, or maybe you'll find nonbinary or butch woman or something else hits that spot. Maybe it'll change.
posted by Lady Li at 6:33 AM on July 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
You've got a lot of different thoughtful and interesting answers here, so maybe it would be helpful to think about how they make you feel? Does hearing, "You can absolutely feel alienated from traditional ideas of masculinity, or identify with female characters, and still be completely cis," feel reassuring? Or disappointing? Does hearing, "I'm nb and this is exactly how my journey to that started," feel validating or exciting, or something else?
Just...think about what you want the answer to be. It's also fine if you don't come to a firm conclusion right away, or ever, and it's fine if you change your mind.
I don't believe there's a central objective truth of Who I Am. Your job isn't to chip away at yourself until you reveal the true secret core of your identity. You can just experiment until you find something you like being.
posted by BlueNorther at 9:24 AM on July 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
Just...think about what you want the answer to be. It's also fine if you don't come to a firm conclusion right away, or ever, and it's fine if you change your mind.
I don't believe there's a central objective truth of Who I Am. Your job isn't to chip away at yourself until you reveal the true secret core of your identity. You can just experiment until you find something you like being.
posted by BlueNorther at 9:24 AM on July 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
My all-purpose gender advice for when you're feeling stuck and uncertain is "try some stuff and then see how you feel." Which might mean dabbling in different pronouns, or trying different ways of presenting, or just holding a different image of yourself in your mind as you go through your day, or (on the devil's advocate side) roleplaying a man for a change and seeing what feelings come up for you. You get more information from actually trying the thing than you do from a thought experiment, no matter how thoughtful you are. And it's not like trying one thing is conclusive — if you don't end up loving a particular pronoun, that doesn't make you 100% cis forever — but as you try a bunch of things, you might eventually find your sense of yourself crystalizing.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:22 PM on July 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:22 PM on July 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
So, I used to get these painful bunions.
But then one night, apropos of nothing, I thought to myself "What if I didn't have to pretend to be a man all the time?" And I felt my whole body relax. "Well, that came out of nowhere," I said to myself, "Probably doesn't mean anything, but I guess we'll see."
And over the next days and weeks, sometimes I'd remember having that thought, and every time, relief would flood through me. I started using the thought as a source of comfort. Eventually it changed to "I don't have to pretend to be a man."
So I didn't. Nobody noticed that I'd realized I was nonbinary unless I told them, which I did with intimates when it came up in conversation; nothing about me changed outwardly. I'm still 6'2" and bearded, strangers assume I'm a man and uses he/him pronouns. That doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I'm not pretending anymore; I'm just being myself.
I guess one thing that did change a little, though, is my posture. Apparently, at some point of experiencing the standard gender-policing of 80s childhood, I started trying to "walk like a boy," hips locked, pelvis forward. Which made me pronate, putting my weight on the inside of my feet. Which produced painful bunions.
They went away. They haven't come back.
In the most prosaic and literal and trivial way, pretending to a gender I didn't identify with hurt me, and discarding that pretense healed me. Everyone's journey is different; I wish you luck with yours.
posted by longtime_lurker at 12:06 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
But then one night, apropos of nothing, I thought to myself "What if I didn't have to pretend to be a man all the time?" And I felt my whole body relax. "Well, that came out of nowhere," I said to myself, "Probably doesn't mean anything, but I guess we'll see."
And over the next days and weeks, sometimes I'd remember having that thought, and every time, relief would flood through me. I started using the thought as a source of comfort. Eventually it changed to "I don't have to pretend to be a man."
So I didn't. Nobody noticed that I'd realized I was nonbinary unless I told them, which I did with intimates when it came up in conversation; nothing about me changed outwardly. I'm still 6'2" and bearded, strangers assume I'm a man and uses he/him pronouns. That doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I'm not pretending anymore; I'm just being myself.
I guess one thing that did change a little, though, is my posture. Apparently, at some point of experiencing the standard gender-policing of 80s childhood, I started trying to "walk like a boy," hips locked, pelvis forward. Which made me pronate, putting my weight on the inside of my feet. Which produced painful bunions.
They went away. They haven't come back.
In the most prosaic and literal and trivial way, pretending to a gender I didn't identify with hurt me, and discarding that pretense healed me. Everyone's journey is different; I wish you luck with yours.
posted by longtime_lurker at 12:06 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
In conclusion: There are no membership requirements. If it feels good to identify as nonbinary, you're nonbinary. You're not kidding yourself; what would that even look like? Rise up from the ashes, comrade.
posted by longtime_lurker at 6:58 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by longtime_lurker at 6:58 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
For me, it was reading memoirs of trans people that helped me figure out I was non-binary. (Which they weren't, actually.) Because the people I was reading about each had, as part of their story, the strong feeling of their gender, and how it mismatched with what they were told they were. Which made me ask, what feeling? When I asked people around me, it turned out this was something other people had. I'm agender though and don't have those.
You might like trans memoirs, including non-binary people who are agender and are both genders, and see how people describe their feelings.
posted by blueberry monster at 11:30 AM on July 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
You might like trans memoirs, including non-binary people who are agender and are both genders, and see how people describe their feelings.
posted by blueberry monster at 11:30 AM on July 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SPrintF at 8:22 PM on July 17, 2022 [1 favorite]