Does it take one to know one? What if I actually like them?
April 13, 2022 5:10 PM Subscribe
If I enjoy people who are (pejoratively) labeled "interesting," "weird," or "self-centered," and if I have trouble reading social cues and regulating emotion myself, should I assume I am such a person myself? I've been lucky enough to "find my niche" with friends who accept me and work that puts my strengths to use. But I still feel out of step with the world. Is it time to reach a deeper acceptance that neurodivergence seems likely, and not everyone will like me/us, or do I need to make some changes? Or, both? And how?
For context, in no particular order:
"In case we are really the average of the five people we talk to most, make sure you don't average out to asshole."
I'm realizing that a longtime friend of mine, one of the five people I talk to most, who I've always seen as consistently kind to me, to mutual friends, to waitstaff, to random strangers--is seen as an jerk at his work. Friend has worked a couple different places where it hasn't worked out, though never friend's fault... and now it dawns on me that maybe friend is always an asshole at work, but since I've never worked with friend, I've never seen his work persona. I guess I've only heard friend's side of things. Or maybe I have an asshole as a friend, I like him, and I don't see a problem with any of the work anecdotes he has shared, which would also make me an asshole.
A group of former coworkers that I still get together with (we worked together 7 years ago, and now all work different places) includes one who has been referred to HR for classes, and four who have been denied significant opportunities for reasons of fit/likeability... all in the past year. That's all five of them. I'm not better than them, as my prior questions about work show, but what's blowing my mind is: I really thought they were better than me. I was going to them for advice. They always seem kind and thoughtful. I'm sort of stunned that none of them ever seemed to struggle at work before, and suddenly they all have been seen as having trouble with soft skills. Is it because they/we are all women? perceived as neurodivergent? perceived as interesting/weird/self-centered? To be clear, this isn't about wanting to compete or rise through the ranks, but wanting to be a net asset and make other people's (working) lives better, and I'm stunned that all five of them are being told they're falling short.
A buddy recently turned down an invitation to get together in a very blunt manner. It was... refreshing. I was kind of shocked that I didn't feel hurt, but was really grateful for the honesty. I mean, I don't think brutal honesty is a good thing. Brutal is no good. But this anecdote may suggest I'm further toward that side of the spectrum than many people, maybe.
I was hanging out with friends and their kids, and there was one kid who wanted my attention a lot. I'm childfree but I like kids, and haven't been getting out much in the pandemic, so watching a kid on slides and merry-go-rounds when they say "watch me!" and I say "I see you!" for an hour is fine with me. The parents were talking about how they feel sorry for that kid not being quite normal, and telling me how nice I was for being nice to the kid. I noticed that the kid didn't respond with interest when the other kids made what I think Gottman would call "bids for connection." I'm pretty sure I was a lot like that when I was a kid. Maybe I am neurodivergent. If this kid is, then maybe their parents are, and maybe because their parents are my friends it shows that neurodivergent people flock together. And maybe accepting that we have a different way of being, and we like each other fine, is the way to go. Or maybe when the parents were saying how nice I was to be nice to the kid, that was their nice way of saying I was being as weird as the kid to indulge that behavior for so long instead of hanging with the adults, but I didn't pick up the hint at the time.
I found this old question, in particular this comment: https://ask.metafilter.com/172103/Help-I-may-be-an-asshole#2475759 And now it dawns on me that I've recently heard that "not a yes man" kind of talk in the group chat of my grad school peeps, who might all either be assholes, or people who enjoy the company of assholes, or both. Or maybe we all went to grad school for our niche interest because we have a neurodivergent special interest, and we're feeling unheard because we're junior employees, and it's fine to vent amongst ourselves.
I keep spinning on this topic, maybe because I need someone to give me an outside opinion. But if the people I click with and trust are all either neurodivergent or weird/self-centered or both, then I'm not really getting an outside opinion. We're all in the soup together. But if I find someone who is both neurotypical and kind, then I'm guessing they'll probably say something like, it's not for me to tell a grown adult how they should live. Which might mean I'm fine, or might mean they're too polite to say that I'm not. I would think the same goes for therapists or coaches or anyone else I could pay for their opinion: how do I know that the therapist who tells me I'm thriving and don't need therapy (this really happened recently) isn't understandably focusing on people whose mental health is way worse than mine, while I could actually use some coaching? How do I know that the coach I click with (I recently met one) isn't the one their peers roll their eyes at, the one who will enable me because the coach is kind of the same way? Or would that be exactly the type of coach that might benefit me?
For context, in no particular order:
"In case we are really the average of the five people we talk to most, make sure you don't average out to asshole."
I'm realizing that a longtime friend of mine, one of the five people I talk to most, who I've always seen as consistently kind to me, to mutual friends, to waitstaff, to random strangers--is seen as an jerk at his work. Friend has worked a couple different places where it hasn't worked out, though never friend's fault... and now it dawns on me that maybe friend is always an asshole at work, but since I've never worked with friend, I've never seen his work persona. I guess I've only heard friend's side of things. Or maybe I have an asshole as a friend, I like him, and I don't see a problem with any of the work anecdotes he has shared, which would also make me an asshole.
A group of former coworkers that I still get together with (we worked together 7 years ago, and now all work different places) includes one who has been referred to HR for classes, and four who have been denied significant opportunities for reasons of fit/likeability... all in the past year. That's all five of them. I'm not better than them, as my prior questions about work show, but what's blowing my mind is: I really thought they were better than me. I was going to them for advice. They always seem kind and thoughtful. I'm sort of stunned that none of them ever seemed to struggle at work before, and suddenly they all have been seen as having trouble with soft skills. Is it because they/we are all women? perceived as neurodivergent? perceived as interesting/weird/self-centered? To be clear, this isn't about wanting to compete or rise through the ranks, but wanting to be a net asset and make other people's (working) lives better, and I'm stunned that all five of them are being told they're falling short.
A buddy recently turned down an invitation to get together in a very blunt manner. It was... refreshing. I was kind of shocked that I didn't feel hurt, but was really grateful for the honesty. I mean, I don't think brutal honesty is a good thing. Brutal is no good. But this anecdote may suggest I'm further toward that side of the spectrum than many people, maybe.
I was hanging out with friends and their kids, and there was one kid who wanted my attention a lot. I'm childfree but I like kids, and haven't been getting out much in the pandemic, so watching a kid on slides and merry-go-rounds when they say "watch me!" and I say "I see you!" for an hour is fine with me. The parents were talking about how they feel sorry for that kid not being quite normal, and telling me how nice I was for being nice to the kid. I noticed that the kid didn't respond with interest when the other kids made what I think Gottman would call "bids for connection." I'm pretty sure I was a lot like that when I was a kid. Maybe I am neurodivergent. If this kid is, then maybe their parents are, and maybe because their parents are my friends it shows that neurodivergent people flock together. And maybe accepting that we have a different way of being, and we like each other fine, is the way to go. Or maybe when the parents were saying how nice I was to be nice to the kid, that was their nice way of saying I was being as weird as the kid to indulge that behavior for so long instead of hanging with the adults, but I didn't pick up the hint at the time.
I found this old question, in particular this comment: https://ask.metafilter.com/172103/Help-I-may-be-an-asshole#2475759 And now it dawns on me that I've recently heard that "not a yes man" kind of talk in the group chat of my grad school peeps, who might all either be assholes, or people who enjoy the company of assholes, or both. Or maybe we all went to grad school for our niche interest because we have a neurodivergent special interest, and we're feeling unheard because we're junior employees, and it's fine to vent amongst ourselves.
I keep spinning on this topic, maybe because I need someone to give me an outside opinion. But if the people I click with and trust are all either neurodivergent or weird/self-centered or both, then I'm not really getting an outside opinion. We're all in the soup together. But if I find someone who is both neurotypical and kind, then I'm guessing they'll probably say something like, it's not for me to tell a grown adult how they should live. Which might mean I'm fine, or might mean they're too polite to say that I'm not. I would think the same goes for therapists or coaches or anyone else I could pay for their opinion: how do I know that the therapist who tells me I'm thriving and don't need therapy (this really happened recently) isn't understandably focusing on people whose mental health is way worse than mine, while I could actually use some coaching? How do I know that the coach I click with (I recently met one) isn't the one their peers roll their eyes at, the one who will enable me because the coach is kind of the same way? Or would that be exactly the type of coach that might benefit me?
In my experience there is no connection between genuine kindness and the ability to be popular at work. None.
There is also no connection between genuine kindness and "being nice." Some of the "nicest" people I've known have been the least principled. Niceness is nothing. And conversely some of the most decent people I know have been unsuccessful in corporate settings, specifically because their integrity prevented them from "playing ball" in ways that would have been politically useful.
So no, I don't think you should all of a sudden revise your opinion of your friends - whom you say have always been kind to you - because other people, using a scale of which you know nothing, are judging them poorly.
And I don't think you need to label yourself as neurodivergent just because you have a broader capacity to enjoy people and see their merits than other people do.
But I do think you need to make peace with not everyone liking you, because that is true for LITERALLY EVERYONE.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:42 PM on April 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
There is also no connection between genuine kindness and "being nice." Some of the "nicest" people I've known have been the least principled. Niceness is nothing. And conversely some of the most decent people I know have been unsuccessful in corporate settings, specifically because their integrity prevented them from "playing ball" in ways that would have been politically useful.
So no, I don't think you should all of a sudden revise your opinion of your friends - whom you say have always been kind to you - because other people, using a scale of which you know nothing, are judging them poorly.
And I don't think you need to label yourself as neurodivergent just because you have a broader capacity to enjoy people and see their merits than other people do.
But I do think you need to make peace with not everyone liking you, because that is true for LITERALLY EVERYONE.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:42 PM on April 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Here's a recent article about the happy side of the "double empathy problem", titled ‘I never realised everybody felt as happy as I do when I am around autistic people’: A thematic analysis of autistic adults’ relationships with autistic and neurotypical friends and family.
And here's the AQ-10 screening questionnaire. (Some of the questions require a bit of interpretation; consider the references to "other people" to refer to those outside your group of friends.)
My approach to evaluating this was to read a bazillion essays/blogs/etc. by late-diagnosed autistic people and carefully consider how their experiences compared to mine. Here's Undercover Autism [blog] by Emma in the UK, and Aspergers from the Inside [YouTube channel] by Paul in Australia.
Finding out changed/is changing my life.
posted by heatherlogan at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
And here's the AQ-10 screening questionnaire. (Some of the questions require a bit of interpretation; consider the references to "other people" to refer to those outside your group of friends.)
My approach to evaluating this was to read a bazillion essays/blogs/etc. by late-diagnosed autistic people and carefully consider how their experiences compared to mine. Here's Undercover Autism [blog] by Emma in the UK, and Aspergers from the Inside [YouTube channel] by Paul in Australia.
Finding out changed/is changing my life.
posted by heatherlogan at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm a little bit puzzled by the question.
Being weird and loving brilliant weirdos isn't a bad thing. Every famous smart person you can name is weird as hell. You can be weird (or autistic) and also have meaningful relationship with normies. I'm probably on the spectrum and am endlessly frustrated by the interactions and expectations of other people, but it isn't hard to treat them kindly and celebrate the good things they do. Changing who you are seems unlikely to go well. Changing how you interact with others might be useful. Assume goodwill and that the people who disappoint you are are dumb rather than mean. Don't tell them about it. Best wishes.
posted by eotvos at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Being weird and loving brilliant weirdos isn't a bad thing. Every famous smart person you can name is weird as hell. You can be weird (or autistic) and also have meaningful relationship with normies. I'm probably on the spectrum and am endlessly frustrated by the interactions and expectations of other people, but it isn't hard to treat them kindly and celebrate the good things they do. Changing who you are seems unlikely to go well. Changing how you interact with others might be useful. Assume goodwill and that the people who disappoint you are are dumb rather than mean. Don't tell them about it. Best wishes.
posted by eotvos at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: You know what, I'm certainly weird but I do not think I am neurodivergent. Sometimes weird is just weird without it being a medical condition, and I think these days everyone seems overly focused on blaming things on certain medical conditions who may or may not be accurate. I sort of wonder if it's a fad, even, because every time someone rubs someone the wrong way, "does so-and-so have X" comes up. I don't think everyone has that certain medical condition just because they're weird. We can't all have that.
Is it because they/we are all women? perceived as neurodivergent? perceived as interesting/weird/self-centered? To be clear, this isn't about wanting to compete or rise through the ranks, but wanting to be a net asset and make other people's (working) lives better, and I'm stunned that all five of them are being told they're falling short.
Any/all of that may apply, yes. In general, this fits me too. I can certainly say I'm told I "fall short" (to say the least) at work, that I get on people's nerves, that my voice is awful, that I'm obviously stressed out, that I don't say the right things, that I rub people the wrong way. I used to never get these critiques and now I hear them all the time. I'm much more in the public eye, getting judged, being stressed out by clientele, though. That's probably what's made me a worse person than when I lived in the basement with my stapler and I talked to two people a day and neither of them found me offensive. And also, people judge women a lot more harshly, period.
Also work personas are different for some people than they are the rest of the time. Someone may be more of a pain of the ass at work than they are in their regular, less-stressed life. I also have a friend who probably comes off as more of an asshole at work than in the rest of life--works in a cutthroat industry with a lot of jerks, stands up for herself and that is probably regarded as being difficult/picking fights, she ends up losing jobs sooner than expected. The industry she's in and what she deals with may change her persona.
Anyway, it seems like this question is asking "Are we all on the spectrum?" and I don't think so. That's not the answer to everything. Sometimes people are just naturally weird and/or don't fit with the less interesting people. And being in a bad-for-you environment makes it worse.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:02 PM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
Is it because they/we are all women? perceived as neurodivergent? perceived as interesting/weird/self-centered? To be clear, this isn't about wanting to compete or rise through the ranks, but wanting to be a net asset and make other people's (working) lives better, and I'm stunned that all five of them are being told they're falling short.
Any/all of that may apply, yes. In general, this fits me too. I can certainly say I'm told I "fall short" (to say the least) at work, that I get on people's nerves, that my voice is awful, that I'm obviously stressed out, that I don't say the right things, that I rub people the wrong way. I used to never get these critiques and now I hear them all the time. I'm much more in the public eye, getting judged, being stressed out by clientele, though. That's probably what's made me a worse person than when I lived in the basement with my stapler and I talked to two people a day and neither of them found me offensive. And also, people judge women a lot more harshly, period.
Also work personas are different for some people than they are the rest of the time. Someone may be more of a pain of the ass at work than they are in their regular, less-stressed life. I also have a friend who probably comes off as more of an asshole at work than in the rest of life--works in a cutthroat industry with a lot of jerks, stands up for herself and that is probably regarded as being difficult/picking fights, she ends up losing jobs sooner than expected. The industry she's in and what she deals with may change her persona.
Anyway, it seems like this question is asking "Are we all on the spectrum?" and I don't think so. That's not the answer to everything. Sometimes people are just naturally weird and/or don't fit with the less interesting people. And being in a bad-for-you environment makes it worse.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:02 PM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I am confirmed neurodivergent (ADHD-PH) and suspect that I'm autistic also. I've been seen as rude or stuck up because I was quiet. In grad school I ended up meeting with my department chair because my teacher though I was "challenging and hostile" in class, and I had no idea they saw me that way until this mortifying meeting because they never said anything before then.
I didn't have friends in that environment. I was stressed going through a breakup and moving back with an abusive parent so I wasn't at my best. But I wasn't mean. I was just using the cultural expectations of my previous grad program. In the previous environment we were supposed to debate with our teachers and nobody explained to me that I transferred to a "sit down, shut up, regurgitate this later" culture.
My spouse is probably autistic. I dated a man confirmed to have Asperger's a few years back. His social behavior didn't land as especially odd to me. Definitely seems that we are drawn to each other.
Maybe people at work think I'm a jerk but it's hard to be successful working in human services if people think you're a jerk. (I have a competitive role at the top of my salary range, but I guess it depends how you define success whether I'm successful or not.) I know people on the spectrum who are often misunderstood in work settings, and some rub me the wrong way in their bluntness over diplomacy, but I don't believe that is the same thing as being an asshole.
I also think if you work in a toxic environment or work in an environment with certain cultural rules, if you aren't with the "in group" then you're targeted like some mean girls dynamic from high school. I don't understand why, or how to be sure you're on the right side of that stuff, but it's definitely a thing I've witnessed. And, people may project intentions or motivations that you don't actually have. An NT person may see obliviousness, confusion or overwhelm in an ND person as malice.
People getting seen a certain way at work really has nothing to do with what kind of people they are. Doubly so if they are neurodivergent in an environment built for neurotypical people. Triply so if they are female-presenting because the world holds women to even higher standards for reading social protocols. You might find this an interesting read.
Anyway, my post here isn't very coherent. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say exactly, except your friends getting poor feedback at work doesn't necessarily mean they are assholes. You might be neurodivergent yourself. I have found it helpful to learn more about all of that to give myself compassion. My sudden rage when my child and husband speak to me simultaneously too many times is a reaction to sensory issue. Not a sign of bad character. Now I know how to prevent that. I don't have to beat myself up for wanting alone time after a social situation (beyond even what seems "normal" for introverts). I don't feel guilty for sitting in the car during my son's sports, because I have this context and understand if I extend myself too much in that environment, my family suffers. I have permission to be myself. I might look like an asshole to a neurotypical person or extrovert that feels personally rejected by my choices, but that is a them problem. I have emotional scars from people taking my social quietness personally but finally I just do me. Maybe that makes me an asshole but I prefer to see myself as learning to be comfortable in my own skin and learning that it's ok to not be perpetually stressed and burned out just to fit into a box someone else wants to put me in.
posted by crunchy potato at 6:35 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I didn't have friends in that environment. I was stressed going through a breakup and moving back with an abusive parent so I wasn't at my best. But I wasn't mean. I was just using the cultural expectations of my previous grad program. In the previous environment we were supposed to debate with our teachers and nobody explained to me that I transferred to a "sit down, shut up, regurgitate this later" culture.
My spouse is probably autistic. I dated a man confirmed to have Asperger's a few years back. His social behavior didn't land as especially odd to me. Definitely seems that we are drawn to each other.
Maybe people at work think I'm a jerk but it's hard to be successful working in human services if people think you're a jerk. (I have a competitive role at the top of my salary range, but I guess it depends how you define success whether I'm successful or not.) I know people on the spectrum who are often misunderstood in work settings, and some rub me the wrong way in their bluntness over diplomacy, but I don't believe that is the same thing as being an asshole.
I also think if you work in a toxic environment or work in an environment with certain cultural rules, if you aren't with the "in group" then you're targeted like some mean girls dynamic from high school. I don't understand why, or how to be sure you're on the right side of that stuff, but it's definitely a thing I've witnessed. And, people may project intentions or motivations that you don't actually have. An NT person may see obliviousness, confusion or overwhelm in an ND person as malice.
People getting seen a certain way at work really has nothing to do with what kind of people they are. Doubly so if they are neurodivergent in an environment built for neurotypical people. Triply so if they are female-presenting because the world holds women to even higher standards for reading social protocols. You might find this an interesting read.
Anyway, my post here isn't very coherent. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say exactly, except your friends getting poor feedback at work doesn't necessarily mean they are assholes. You might be neurodivergent yourself. I have found it helpful to learn more about all of that to give myself compassion. My sudden rage when my child and husband speak to me simultaneously too many times is a reaction to sensory issue. Not a sign of bad character. Now I know how to prevent that. I don't have to beat myself up for wanting alone time after a social situation (beyond even what seems "normal" for introverts). I don't feel guilty for sitting in the car during my son's sports, because I have this context and understand if I extend myself too much in that environment, my family suffers. I have permission to be myself. I might look like an asshole to a neurotypical person or extrovert that feels personally rejected by my choices, but that is a them problem. I have emotional scars from people taking my social quietness personally but finally I just do me. Maybe that makes me an asshole but I prefer to see myself as learning to be comfortable in my own skin and learning that it's ok to not be perpetually stressed and burned out just to fit into a box someone else wants to put me in.
posted by crunchy potato at 6:35 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think "am I on the spectrum" and "am I an asshole" are separate questions.
I also think that people have really different personas in different places and that isn't exactly what "being an asshole" means. I think "being difficult in one social setting while being nice in others" is very common, and that's not the same as "being nice among white people and a racist in multiracial settings" or "being a good friend to my male buddies and being a harasser and creep to women", etc.
Many of my friends have some folks who really, really don't like them and I can kind of see why - I know my friends, I know their life histories and I know that in certain situations they might not shine. Why am I still friends with them then? Well, I feel like I understand why Friend A might feel panicky and tell a lie in certain kind of situation, or why Friend B's past struggles might push them to respond really poorly to criticism. In short, I feel like they may act less than the preux chevalier sometimes but I don't think they are doing it because they don't care about others or are trying to get ahead by whatever means necessary, etc.
I think that people tend to like me in real life, but I don't inspire the kind of loyalty and affection that my more polarizing friends do - I'm bland in comparison. No one would say that I am an asshole in certain settings, because I'm not...but I don't shine as brightly as my difficult friends. So anyway, no, you are not necessarily an asshole because your friends are.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I also think that people have really different personas in different places and that isn't exactly what "being an asshole" means. I think "being difficult in one social setting while being nice in others" is very common, and that's not the same as "being nice among white people and a racist in multiracial settings" or "being a good friend to my male buddies and being a harasser and creep to women", etc.
Many of my friends have some folks who really, really don't like them and I can kind of see why - I know my friends, I know their life histories and I know that in certain situations they might not shine. Why am I still friends with them then? Well, I feel like I understand why Friend A might feel panicky and tell a lie in certain kind of situation, or why Friend B's past struggles might push them to respond really poorly to criticism. In short, I feel like they may act less than the preux chevalier sometimes but I don't think they are doing it because they don't care about others or are trying to get ahead by whatever means necessary, etc.
I think that people tend to like me in real life, but I don't inspire the kind of loyalty and affection that my more polarizing friends do - I'm bland in comparison. No one would say that I am an asshole in certain settings, because I'm not...but I don't shine as brightly as my difficult friends. So anyway, no, you are not necessarily an asshole because your friends are.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
People here don't know you or your friends, so you're not going to get a conclusive answer. It's possible that your friend is a good friend and a bad employee.
Additionally, don't assume that neurodivergent people automatically get along well with each other. I have ADHD and there are people with ADHD that I can't work with -- it's like the wrong ends of magnets repelling each other.
posted by betweenthebars at 7:00 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Additionally, don't assume that neurodivergent people automatically get along well with each other. I have ADHD and there are people with ADHD that I can't work with -- it's like the wrong ends of magnets repelling each other.
posted by betweenthebars at 7:00 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I noticed you said you and your group are all women.... What I have noticed is that in the workplace, women are expected (by both men, and other women) to always pretend to be sweet, happy, pleasant and sugar-coat everything. When you just straight-talk, people seem to get their backs up. When you're too quiet, people get their backs up. When you don't ass kiss enough, people get their backs up. No one expects you to just be yourself if you're a woman. You have to perform 'woman in the workplace.' Not sure if this helps but I liked reading the book Quiet by Susan Cain. There was an interesting article on her website a while back that may help to explain what's happening: Gender & Temperament: The One-Two Punch That Can Hold You Back There's lots of aspects of personality that can interact with gender to make people react weirdly in American culture because their expectations for how someone is going to act get surprised, and they somehow take it personally because they can't mind their damn business! God sometimes I wish I was born in France (being blunt is normal) or Japan (being quiet is normal)...
posted by winterportage at 7:25 PM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by winterportage at 7:25 PM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
There definitely is a large amount of performative-ness involved in being popular / well liked at work, e.g. knowing what to say and when to say it, knowing how to influence others and get them on your side, knowing what your boss likes to hear, being able to get on the latest organizational bandwagon or whim with apparent sincerity (“Agile! Design thinking!”) etc.
None of these have much to do with whether one is a genuinely good person or not. Unless your friends are being called up by HR for sexually harassing colleagues or throwing around slurs I doubt that the problem is that they are assholes. And as many posters above mentioned, being a woman can mean that the expectations to be sociable, tactful, warm, obliging, cheerful are piled on, while any behavior that is perceived to be blunt, brusque, cold, demanding (ie not performing female gender norms) is punished extra hard. FWIW I’m definitely not on the spectrum (certainly don’t meet the criteria based on the the AQ-10 and other questionnaires), but I also don’t meet many of these gendered expectations, which has resulted in comments that I’m weird, unsociable, raised by wolves yadda yadda over the years.
Going back to your questions
-Am I on the spectrum? You may be, you may not be. If getting a professional evaluation would give you comfort, you could consider one?
-Am I weird? Weird is completely relative to who you are comparing yourself with. And what good does it serve to know you are “weird” or seen as “weird”? Would it stop you from living life the way you want to?
-Am I an asshole/ are my friends assholes? You get to decide this one based on your own moral compass but I doubt this is true.
-Is my coach right for me? No one can tell because you don’t specify what you’re getting coaching for or your coach’s area of expertise. Lots of less likeable/ popular people have valuable things to share with the world. Conversely many socially adept people are able to connect / “click” well with different types of people and make them feel comfortable.
-Do I need to change? It depends on what you want to achieve. Popularity in the workplace? Perhaps you need to. But if you are otherwise happy with your work and social circles why do so?
-Do I need to accept that not everyone will like me? Hard yes.
posted by pandanpanda at 7:56 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
None of these have much to do with whether one is a genuinely good person or not. Unless your friends are being called up by HR for sexually harassing colleagues or throwing around slurs I doubt that the problem is that they are assholes. And as many posters above mentioned, being a woman can mean that the expectations to be sociable, tactful, warm, obliging, cheerful are piled on, while any behavior that is perceived to be blunt, brusque, cold, demanding (ie not performing female gender norms) is punished extra hard. FWIW I’m definitely not on the spectrum (certainly don’t meet the criteria based on the the AQ-10 and other questionnaires), but I also don’t meet many of these gendered expectations, which has resulted in comments that I’m weird, unsociable, raised by wolves yadda yadda over the years.
Going back to your questions
-Am I on the spectrum? You may be, you may not be. If getting a professional evaluation would give you comfort, you could consider one?
-Am I weird? Weird is completely relative to who you are comparing yourself with. And what good does it serve to know you are “weird” or seen as “weird”? Would it stop you from living life the way you want to?
-Am I an asshole/ are my friends assholes? You get to decide this one based on your own moral compass but I doubt this is true.
-Is my coach right for me? No one can tell because you don’t specify what you’re getting coaching for or your coach’s area of expertise. Lots of less likeable/ popular people have valuable things to share with the world. Conversely many socially adept people are able to connect / “click” well with different types of people and make them feel comfortable.
-Do I need to change? It depends on what you want to achieve. Popularity in the workplace? Perhaps you need to. But if you are otherwise happy with your work and social circles why do so?
-Do I need to accept that not everyone will like me? Hard yes.
posted by pandanpanda at 7:56 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
In your question, I get the sense that you feel as if there is a sort of objective, external "this person is an ashole" set of criteria that other people have access to and you do not.
As if someone (possibly a neurotypical person only?) can confidently state that such and such person is definitely an ashole, and you, a person without a working ashole-detector , have to accept their judgement because they know better than you.
I suspect that many of us, both on and not on the spectrum, feel this way. (That's why "am I the ashole" on reddit exists.)
Thing is, there isn't really such a thing as an ashole. (Sorry, that is a ridiculous statement anatomicaly but you know what I mean).
There's just people who do things, and think things. Those things can be kind, or cruel, or selfish, or generous, or vicious, or loving.
Usually they are a big old mix of different things that can be judged differently depending on the context, or point of view.
That doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a cruel act. It's not all relative and meaningless. But you get to decide what your own criteria are.
Part of that process of deciding is questioning your own values. Wondering if you are the ashole is healthy. But at some point, you also get to accept that there is no one, definitive answer to that question, and that's OK.
posted by Zumbador at 9:48 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
As if someone (possibly a neurotypical person only?) can confidently state that such and such person is definitely an ashole, and you, a person without a working ashole-detector , have to accept their judgement because they know better than you.
I suspect that many of us, both on and not on the spectrum, feel this way. (That's why "am I the ashole" on reddit exists.)
Thing is, there isn't really such a thing as an ashole. (Sorry, that is a ridiculous statement anatomicaly but you know what I mean).
There's just people who do things, and think things. Those things can be kind, or cruel, or selfish, or generous, or vicious, or loving.
Usually they are a big old mix of different things that can be judged differently depending on the context, or point of view.
That doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a cruel act. It's not all relative and meaningless. But you get to decide what your own criteria are.
Part of that process of deciding is questioning your own values. Wondering if you are the ashole is healthy. But at some point, you also get to accept that there is no one, definitive answer to that question, and that's OK.
posted by Zumbador at 9:48 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: So you have some friends who are mostly decent to you but might sometimes be problems for others. That seems pretty common so far. It could be a red flag, but it doesn't have to be. The most well intentioned, good natured folks can have their blind spots, people and contexts that don't exactly bring out the best in them.
One thing to look at are power dynamics. Someone who always manages to somehow reserve their shittier moments for people who can't do much to push back might just be an asshole for real. Since your friends in all your examples apparently drew the shorter stick in these conflicts, got reprimanded or denied opportunties, that does read to me more like genuine interpersonal incompatibility (possibly due to neurodivergence, possibly due to a myriad of other stuff), rather than someone trying to exploit privilege to get away with bullshit. The company you keep might indeed sometimes reflect badly on you, but that doesn't seem to me the case here.
The other aspect is that you now lost confidence in your own ability to read the room, since so many people seem to see issues you don't see and you ask yourself if you might be neurodivergent yourself. But you already know what to do: "Reach a deeper acceptance that neurodivergence seems likely, and not everyone will like me/us" sounds like a great plan to me.
And sure, looking for some more normie perspectives to get a better grasp of what's the conventional wisdom might be useful. But yeah, finding the perfect, one and only, always applicable normie perspective to guide you is going to be..... impossible, to be honest. The rules of social conduct are not just often implicit, they're also incomplete and contradictory. Sometimes they are meant to be broken - strict adherence to all the rules in certain situations can be seen as malicious compliance, a popular strategy of sabotage. So of course normies get it wrong all the time as well. You can never get an objective point of view here, because interpersonal matters are all about the intersubjectivity.
"Lack of fit" could be about a million things other than neurodivergence or lack of social skills. Five friends (apparently) misstepping in such a short time sure seems like a pattern, but it still might just be a bit of a coincidence. Everyone can find themselves on the wrong end of a group dynamic once in a while. Neurotypical people who are mostly perfectly conventional too will occasionally get egg on their face. They will miscalculate other people's reactions to their behavior and be blindsided because people are too polite to give accurate feedback in time.
Point is, nobody knows what flies, everyone just guesses. If you feel blindsided very often, sure, you might benefit from getting some more perspectives to make more educated guesses - not just from one, all-knowing coach, but from a variety of people, who might not always agree very much, and then you triangulate. You'll have to take some of it with a grain of salt, but eventually some patterns will emerge that will feel plausible to you and provide some orientation (pretty much just as you're doing right now by asking askmefi; you got this).
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
One thing to look at are power dynamics. Someone who always manages to somehow reserve their shittier moments for people who can't do much to push back might just be an asshole for real. Since your friends in all your examples apparently drew the shorter stick in these conflicts, got reprimanded or denied opportunties, that does read to me more like genuine interpersonal incompatibility (possibly due to neurodivergence, possibly due to a myriad of other stuff), rather than someone trying to exploit privilege to get away with bullshit. The company you keep might indeed sometimes reflect badly on you, but that doesn't seem to me the case here.
The other aspect is that you now lost confidence in your own ability to read the room, since so many people seem to see issues you don't see and you ask yourself if you might be neurodivergent yourself. But you already know what to do: "Reach a deeper acceptance that neurodivergence seems likely, and not everyone will like me/us" sounds like a great plan to me.
And sure, looking for some more normie perspectives to get a better grasp of what's the conventional wisdom might be useful. But yeah, finding the perfect, one and only, always applicable normie perspective to guide you is going to be..... impossible, to be honest. The rules of social conduct are not just often implicit, they're also incomplete and contradictory. Sometimes they are meant to be broken - strict adherence to all the rules in certain situations can be seen as malicious compliance, a popular strategy of sabotage. So of course normies get it wrong all the time as well. You can never get an objective point of view here, because interpersonal matters are all about the intersubjectivity.
"Lack of fit" could be about a million things other than neurodivergence or lack of social skills. Five friends (apparently) misstepping in such a short time sure seems like a pattern, but it still might just be a bit of a coincidence. Everyone can find themselves on the wrong end of a group dynamic once in a while. Neurotypical people who are mostly perfectly conventional too will occasionally get egg on their face. They will miscalculate other people's reactions to their behavior and be blindsided because people are too polite to give accurate feedback in time.
Point is, nobody knows what flies, everyone just guesses. If you feel blindsided very often, sure, you might benefit from getting some more perspectives to make more educated guesses - not just from one, all-knowing coach, but from a variety of people, who might not always agree very much, and then you triangulate. You'll have to take some of it with a grain of salt, but eventually some patterns will emerge that will feel plausible to you and provide some orientation (pretty much just as you're doing right now by asking askmefi; you got this).
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If you are interested in improving your guesses as to what flies or doesn't in a workplace, I recommend reading the "Ask a manager"-blog. If you also read the comments, you can see how often people bring up circumstantial factors that might change the assessment of the situation.
And by the way, I don't mean to discourage you from seeing the coach. That does seem worth an attempt in many regards (if it's not helpful, you can always just stop going). Just don't expect them to reliably save you from ever being blindsided by social dynamics again. That's just the nature of the game!
posted by sohalt at 12:15 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
And by the way, I don't mean to discourage you from seeing the coach. That does seem worth an attempt in many regards (if it's not helpful, you can always just stop going). Just don't expect them to reliably save you from ever being blindsided by social dynamics again. That's just the nature of the game!
posted by sohalt at 12:15 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Based on how you described your friends’ kid, they sounded pretty normal to me. Some kids love attention from the grown ups in their life. They are proud of the things they know how to do like going on the slide or swings and it you were standing there and giving them validation then it’s totally normal for a kid to keep doing stuff like that instead of engaging with unknown children who aren’t as impressed by their ability to use playground equipment. Basically this is well within the realm of normalcy.
posted by donut_princess at 4:10 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by donut_princess at 4:10 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
People who make snide comments or who look for snubs in directness and assume any interpersonal friction is someone else's fault will come off as very confident in their assertions that other people are behaving badly. That doesn't make them right.
Beyond the obvious example of neurodiversity, there are huge cultural differences - you don't even have to move from New York to Savannah to seem like a bumbler who doesn't understand social graces, you can just walk from engineering (where we explicitly train junior people into a culture of openness and direct speaking out about problems, we all want to find any problems ASAP) to a higher level review meeting where they only want to know about major showstoppers. Or a customer meeting.
So: have you learned that a style that's comfortable to you comes off as harsh or unpleasant to some people? Yes.
Does that mean your style has to change? Depends. You might want to think about how you can pay attention to others' reactions and code switch when needed, or if folks generally warm up to you you can just let that process happen.
Does that mean there's Something Defective about you? Bit of a leap. (An understandable one! But still.) Everyone has culture shocks and conflicts.
posted by Lady Li at 5:31 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Beyond the obvious example of neurodiversity, there are huge cultural differences - you don't even have to move from New York to Savannah to seem like a bumbler who doesn't understand social graces, you can just walk from engineering (where we explicitly train junior people into a culture of openness and direct speaking out about problems, we all want to find any problems ASAP) to a higher level review meeting where they only want to know about major showstoppers. Or a customer meeting.
So: have you learned that a style that's comfortable to you comes off as harsh or unpleasant to some people? Yes.
Does that mean your style has to change? Depends. You might want to think about how you can pay attention to others' reactions and code switch when needed, or if folks generally warm up to you you can just let that process happen.
Does that mean there's Something Defective about you? Bit of a leap. (An understandable one! But still.) Everyone has culture shocks and conflicts.
posted by Lady Li at 5:31 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
You mention that multiple friends have been struggling at work in the past year - the past two years have been really hard and have involved massive changes in working conditions for a lot of people. I've certainly done a worse job at work the past two years, especially the most recent one. I think it's a combination of me struggling and also coworkers having their own struggles and being extra upset when I'm less sweet and accommodating than I was before, not helped by mostly communicating over email vs. being able to talk in person. The fact that this came up for all of your friends in the last year probably isn't a coincidence.
I agree with the advice to figure out if this is actually a problem in the sense of getting in the way of things you want to do. It sounds from your post like you're doing fine, and you can just accept that people are different, life is a rich tapestry, it's fine if some people think you're weird.
posted by momus_window at 8:57 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree with the advice to figure out if this is actually a problem in the sense of getting in the way of things you want to do. It sounds from your post like you're doing fine, and you can just accept that people are different, life is a rich tapestry, it's fine if some people think you're weird.
posted by momus_window at 8:57 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've only read some of the replies, but I agree with those suggesting that you may be overthinking this a bit. I'm also, like some others, a bit confused why you're worried your friends might be assholes? Only because of difficulties at work? Because pretty much anyone who is not a cis-het-white-neurotypical-white-man is sometimes out of synch with workplace culture, and even people who manage to tick all of those boxes can find themselves out of synch in the workplace! Unless your friends are getting into fist fights at work or something equally dramatic, I wouldn't let that be a cause of concern.
might mean they're too polite to say that I'm not. I would think the same goes for therapists
The job of therapists is not to be polite! If you doubt this therapist was correct when they told you "you're thriving" then by all means, get a second opinion (and it's okay to push back on therapists..."Ok, but I'm struggling with [x]") but if the next therapist also thinks you're doing great and you can't point to any specific problem, then perhaps you are, indeed, doing fine.
And yes, the pandemic - and online interactions - are so much harder, for everyone. I recently listened to this episode of Hidden Brain on how conversations can go wrong, and found it quite interesting - one takeaway being that this happens to everyone, and that having different conversational styles doesn't necessarily make one person wrong or right.
posted by coffeecat at 9:34 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
might mean they're too polite to say that I'm not. I would think the same goes for therapists
The job of therapists is not to be polite! If you doubt this therapist was correct when they told you "you're thriving" then by all means, get a second opinion (and it's okay to push back on therapists..."Ok, but I'm struggling with [x]") but if the next therapist also thinks you're doing great and you can't point to any specific problem, then perhaps you are, indeed, doing fine.
And yes, the pandemic - and online interactions - are so much harder, for everyone. I recently listened to this episode of Hidden Brain on how conversations can go wrong, and found it quite interesting - one takeaway being that this happens to everyone, and that having different conversational styles doesn't necessarily make one person wrong or right.
posted by coffeecat at 9:34 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Losing confidence in my ability to read the room, as sohalt put it, was what was going on here. I've been getting negative feedback at work, which could shake anyone's confidence, but I thought I was keeping it in perspective while working to get out as quickly as I can. But then to find out that these five former coworkers who I thought were so good at the game (in addition to being kind people) had started getting negative feedback, too... I had to check in with Mefi. Marked as best those answers that resonated, especially where there are more resources linked. Thank you for all the answers.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:25 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:25 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
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The parents were talking about how they feel sorry for that kid not being quite normal, and telling me how nice I was for being nice to the kid.
I do have a number of friends with kids who might be described as neurodivergent and I get along with those kids well and hear similar things from parents. I think with neurotypical parents there is always some concern that a neurodivergent kid might struggle and sometimes you see that playing out with this kind of conversation.
It seems like you're concerned with what others think. This is okay! But sometimes it can also be an issue when you are concerned about external stuff when you're trying to solve an issue for you. Like... if you pick a coach who you feel is helping you, does it matter that others roll their eyes at them? Is it possible you and they just have a "good fit" situation that maybe they don't have with their peers? Like, it's fine to want people to have a good opinion of you, but sometimes when you are trying to work things out for yourself, you get to be the final arbiter of whether it's working and and someone else swooping in to say "Eh I think that person is bad at coaching" really shouldn't affect if they've helped you.
I decided, and this is just for me, that I probably have neurodivergent aspects, my parents both certainly did, but that it wasn't worth it (again, for me only) to go further along these lines with any sort of diagnosis because the main things I wanted to work on with a therapist (anxiety, sleep, a few other things) weren't things that a diagnosis would help with. I'm able to talk with my partner and friends about this in a matter-of-fact way and feel like I know enough people that if I was really wrong about how I was perceived or more generally about my place in the world, I'd hear about it. I feel out of step a lot. I've made my peace with it. When my anxiety is well-managed I really feel okay about most things. When it's not, I feel terrible about this and everything else. I'm not sure if any of this is particularly helpful but it's the response your question brought out in me.
posted by jessamyn at 5:30 PM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]