Is this sentence grammatically "correct"?
March 29, 2022 12:54 PM Subscribe
I recently texted this sentence to a friend and we kind of laughed about my extensive use of the verb "to have": Most lasagna that I have had has had mushrooms in it. What can you tell me about the grammar of this sentence?
Having typed out this beauty of a sentence I am now curious to know more about it grammatically. I think there's really more than one verb tense in there and they just happen to follow each other, rather one long conjugation. Should there be a comma? More than one comma? How would you describe the bits of that sentence in grammatical terms?
I (like to think I) am a decent writer, but not that knowledgeable about grammatic structure (which lets me down considerably when trying to learn foreign languages) so I'm curious about oddities like this. It seems correct to me -- certainly its meaning is intelligible -- but I can't explain why it is, or isn't correct except in the broadest, descriptivist "if that's a way people use language then it is correct" sort of way. What would a prescriptivist say about it?
Having typed out this beauty of a sentence I am now curious to know more about it grammatically. I think there's really more than one verb tense in there and they just happen to follow each other, rather one long conjugation. Should there be a comma? More than one comma? How would you describe the bits of that sentence in grammatical terms?
I (like to think I) am a decent writer, but not that knowledgeable about grammatic structure (which lets me down considerably when trying to learn foreign languages) so I'm curious about oddities like this. It seems correct to me -- certainly its meaning is intelligible -- but I can't explain why it is, or isn't correct except in the broadest, descriptivist "if that's a way people use language then it is correct" sort of way. What would a prescriptivist say about it?
Yeah, the key thing is that "have" can be a auxiliary verb (as in "I have walked") and it can also mean "eat" and "contain". It would be equivalent (but less funny) to write "Most lasagna that I have eaten has contained mushrooms".
posted by likedoomsday at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by likedoomsday at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
The only thing that seems odd to me at first glance is due to the fact that "lasagna" is a singular noun and "most" doesn't go with a singular noun. Think about it: the sentence, "Most book that I have read has had words in it" doesn't make sense. Correct, I think, would be: "Most lasagnas I have had have had mushrooms in them."
posted by slkinsey at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's grammatically correct, but so is this sentence:
Your sentence is a lot easier to parse, and I wouldn't even think twice hearing it spoken aloud, but in text it's awkward. You're using the same verb in a variety of different ways in close proximity to each other, and like the buffalo sentence, it takes some mental effort to sort out.
posted by sportbucket at 1:10 PM on March 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo, I think you might enjoy seeing this broken down.)
Your sentence is a lot easier to parse, and I wouldn't even think twice hearing it spoken aloud, but in text it's awkward. You're using the same verb in a variety of different ways in close proximity to each other, and like the buffalo sentence, it takes some mental effort to sort out.
posted by sportbucket at 1:10 PM on March 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: To be clear, I am not asking for people to rewrite the sentence. It was a text message, she understood what I meant, I don't need to fix it.
I am interested in this sentence, as it is written, and what grammatical elements it contains. What tense is "I have had" in? What tense is "has had" in? Is there a grammatic term for two verb conjugations following one after the other like that? "Most lasagna that I have had" is, I think, the subject of the sentence, rather than a sub-clause -- that's why I didn't put a comma in there, but should I have?
posted by jacquilynne at 1:11 PM on March 29, 2022
I am interested in this sentence, as it is written, and what grammatical elements it contains. What tense is "I have had" in? What tense is "has had" in? Is there a grammatic term for two verb conjugations following one after the other like that? "Most lasagna that I have had" is, I think, the subject of the sentence, rather than a sub-clause -- that's why I didn't put a comma in there, but should I have?
posted by jacquilynne at 1:11 PM on March 29, 2022
The sentence is 100% grammatically correct and absolutely should not have any commas in it. Both "have had" and "has had" are the present perfect tense of "to have". "Most lasagna that I have had" is the subject of the sentence. (To a later point, lasagna is treated as a mass noun in English so "has" is totally fine.)
posted by dfan at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by dfan at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
Best answer: The basic structure of that sentence is subject-verb-object. Same as "Boy meets world", or "The shit has hit the fan." In the first example each of the subject ("Boy"), verb ("meets"), and object ("world") are a single word. In the second example you've got some multi-word phrases making up each of the parts: subject = "the shit", verb = "has hit", object = "the fan".
To take an example more similar to yours, let's look at "This meal has made my day". The structure is probably pretty clear, right? Something has made my day (make is the verb, "has made" is the verb in the present perfect tense, "my day" is the direct object, or what was made). That "something" that has made my day is called the subject of the verb, and in this example it's "this meal".
But language can be recursive, meaning that structures in the sentence (like "subject" or "noun phrase") can have other structures inside them, and those can have yet other structures inside them, and so forth. If I say "This meal that you've made has made my day", the structure of the sentence is the same as the above: Something has made my day (make is the verb, "has made" is the verb in the present perfect tense, "my day" is the direct object, or what was made). But this time the "something" that has made my day - the subject of the verb - is "This meal that you've made". In the previous example the subject was just "this meal", which is a pretty simple noun phrase. "This meal that you've made" is a more complex noun phrase that even includes a whole sentence inside it ("you've made"). But it's still just the subject of the verb.
You can make the subject even more complicated if you want: "This meal that you, and you alone, have made, and which you labored over for hours and cooked using that new saute pan that was on sale for $49.99 and that I've been thinking about getting too because it's so comfortable, has made my day." (Granted, that makes it a lot harder for the reader to keep track of, but it's a legit sentence with the exact same basic structure as the previous sentences: subject verb object.)
You could also make the direct object ("my day" - the thing that's being made) more complicated if you want: "This meal has made my previously terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad day". Why not.
In your example ("Most lasagna that I have had has had mushrooms in it"), what would you say the subject, verb, and object are? (You can ignore the "in it" right now - it's called a prepositional phrase and just adds some more information to the sentence.)
posted by trig at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
To take an example more similar to yours, let's look at "This meal has made my day". The structure is probably pretty clear, right? Something has made my day (make is the verb, "has made" is the verb in the present perfect tense, "my day" is the direct object, or what was made). That "something" that has made my day is called the subject of the verb, and in this example it's "this meal".
But language can be recursive, meaning that structures in the sentence (like "subject" or "noun phrase") can have other structures inside them, and those can have yet other structures inside them, and so forth. If I say "This meal that you've made has made my day", the structure of the sentence is the same as the above: Something has made my day (make is the verb, "has made" is the verb in the present perfect tense, "my day" is the direct object, or what was made). But this time the "something" that has made my day - the subject of the verb - is "This meal that you've made". In the previous example the subject was just "this meal", which is a pretty simple noun phrase. "This meal that you've made" is a more complex noun phrase that even includes a whole sentence inside it ("you've made"). But it's still just the subject of the verb.
You can make the subject even more complicated if you want: "This meal that you, and you alone, have made, and which you labored over for hours and cooked using that new saute pan that was on sale for $49.99 and that I've been thinking about getting too because it's so comfortable, has made my day." (Granted, that makes it a lot harder for the reader to keep track of, but it's a legit sentence with the exact same basic structure as the previous sentences: subject verb object.)
You could also make the direct object ("my day" - the thing that's being made) more complicated if you want: "This meal has made my previously terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad day". Why not.
In your example ("Most lasagna that I have had has had mushrooms in it"), what would you say the subject, verb, and object are? (You can ignore the "in it" right now - it's called a prepositional phrase and just adds some more information to the sentence.)
posted by trig at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
The sentence is fine and does not need commas. "Most lasagna that I have had" is the subject.
I am not convinced that lasagna should be plural. If you had lasagna with a bunch of people, you would say "we had lasagna," not "we had lasagnas." Would you say "lasagnas" if you had three different kinds? I'm not sure. But it's not like "burgers," where "we had burger" would be wrong.
posted by FencingGal at 1:14 PM on March 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am not convinced that lasagna should be plural. If you had lasagna with a bunch of people, you would say "we had lasagna," not "we had lasagnas." Would you say "lasagnas" if you had three different kinds? I'm not sure. But it's not like "burgers," where "we had burger" would be wrong.
posted by FencingGal at 1:14 PM on March 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
(Most lasagna [that I have had]) has had (mushrooms in it).
As someone noted above, ultimately this is just s-v-o sentence order.
Brackets and parens denote subunits, brackets being clauses (subunits with their own subject and verb) and parens being phrases (not having one of those).
Also noted above, the verbs (bolded) are in the present perfect.
posted by praemunire at 1:19 PM on March 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
As someone noted above, ultimately this is just s-v-o sentence order.
Brackets and parens denote subunits, brackets being clauses (subunits with their own subject and verb) and parens being phrases (not having one of those).
Also noted above, the verbs (bolded) are in the present perfect.
posted by praemunire at 1:19 PM on March 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
What tense is "I have had" in? What tense is "has had" in?
Both of those are the present perfect (to have had: I have had, you've had, she's had, and so on)
Is there a grammatic term for two verb conjugations following one after the other like that?
Not sure! Would be interested to know.
"Most lasagna that I have had" is, I think, the subject of the sentence
Right!
, rather than a sub-clause -- that's why I didn't put a comma in there, but should I have?
No, you're good. Generally (in English) you don't separate a subject and a verb with a comma, unless it's somehow truly necessary for clarity.
In this example - "This meal that you, and you alone, have made, and which you labored over for hours and cooked using that new saute pan that was on sale for $49.99 and that I've been thinking about getting too because it's so comfortable, has made my day" - the comma works because it "matches" with the comma before the "and which you labored over...", like a set of parenthesis. (Which you could replace those commas with if you wanted.)
posted by trig at 1:21 PM on March 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Both of those are the present perfect (to have had: I have had, you've had, she's had, and so on)
Is there a grammatic term for two verb conjugations following one after the other like that?
Not sure! Would be interested to know.
"Most lasagna that I have had" is, I think, the subject of the sentence
Right!
, rather than a sub-clause -- that's why I didn't put a comma in there, but should I have?
No, you're good. Generally (in English) you don't separate a subject and a verb with a comma, unless it's somehow truly necessary for clarity.
In this example - "This meal that you, and you alone, have made, and which you labored over for hours and cooked using that new saute pan that was on sale for $49.99 and that I've been thinking about getting too because it's so comfortable, has made my day" - the comma works because it "matches" with the comma before the "and which you labored over...", like a set of parenthesis. (Which you could replace those commas with if you wanted.)
posted by trig at 1:21 PM on March 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To elaborate, various forms of the verb "to have" perform three functions in this sentence, all perfectly idiomatic and correct:
1. in "have had" and "has had", it's an auxiliary verb used for the present perfect (e.g., "I have eaten" vs "I ate").
2. in "have had", it's a synonym for "eat".
3. in "has had", it's a synonym for "possess".
The word "have" is used for a lot of different things in English.
posted by dfan at 1:22 PM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
1. in "have had" and "has had", it's an auxiliary verb used for the present perfect (e.g., "I have eaten" vs "I ate").
2. in "have had", it's a synonym for "eat".
3. in "has had", it's a synonym for "possess".
The word "have" is used for a lot of different things in English.
posted by dfan at 1:22 PM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I keep wanting to see lasagnae.
posted by Gray Duck at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Gray Duck at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd rather eat 'em.
posted by trig at 1:25 PM on March 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by trig at 1:25 PM on March 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Where I had had "had", jacquilynne had had "had had"
posted by NotAlwaysSo at 1:55 PM on March 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by NotAlwaysSo at 1:55 PM on March 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I learned how to do a specific type sentence analysis in Catholic grammar school, so I'm going to do that here. For me, this grammatical analysis does illuminate things!
Most lasagna [that I have had] has had mushrooms in it.
[part of speech / syntax]
Most lasagna [that I have had] has had mushrooms in it.
[part of speech / syntax]
Most - quantitive adjective / describes subject, main clauseNoun qualities (kind, gender, person, number, case):
lasagna - concrete noun / subject, main clause
that - demonstrative pronoun [represents lasagna] / direct object, subordinate clause
I - personal pronoun / subject, subordinate clause
have - auxiliary verb / predicate, subordinate clause
had - main verb / predicate, subordinate clause
has - auxiliary verb / predicate, main clause
had - main verb / predicate, main clause
mushrooms - concrete noun / direct object, main clause
in - preposition / introduces preposition phrase, main clause
it - personal pronoun [represents lasagna] / indirect object, main clause
Lasagna: concrete, neuter, third, singular, subjectiveVerb qualities (mood, tense, voice, person, number):
that: pronoun, neuter, third, singular, objective
I: pronoun, neuter, first, singular, subjective
mushrooms: concrete, neuter, third, plural, objective
it: pronoun, neuter, third, singular, objective
have had: indicative, present perfect, active, first, singularposted by quadrilaterals at 2:04 PM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
has had: indicative, present perfect, active, third, singular
You have a center embedding here. That is, you've got a relative clause after your subject, such that two verb phrases occur in a row.
[noun that (verb phrase)] (verb phrase)
Another example would be "The movie that we saw yesterday is six hours long." Now, a fun fact about syntax: extra center embeddings sound worse and worse. Compare:
Another fun fact your sentence comes close to: English doesn't really like the same word repeated multiple times in a row, even if it's otherwise grammatical. Your sentence doesn't quite have this, because it uses different forms of "have". But imagine you were writing a novel, in the past tense, and included that thought. It'd come out as
posted by zompist at 2:26 PM on March 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
[noun that (verb phrase)] (verb phrase)
Another example would be "The movie that we saw yesterday is six hours long." Now, a fun fact about syntax: extra center embeddings sound worse and worse. Compare:
The movie that the kids we know from church saw yesterday is six hours long.We don't really know why this is; other syntactic constructions can be extended indefinitely.
The movie that the kids the man we know from church introduced us to saw yesterday is six hours long.
Another fun fact your sentence comes close to: English doesn't really like the same word repeated multiple times in a row, even if it's otherwise grammatical. Your sentence doesn't quite have this, because it uses different forms of "have". But imagine you were writing a novel, in the past tense, and included that thought. It'd come out as
Most lasagna that I had had had had mushrooms in it.Considerably more confusing!
posted by zompist at 2:26 PM on March 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
The only thing that seems odd to me at first glance is due to the fact that "lasagna" is a singular noun and "most" doesn't go with a singular noun. Think about it: the sentence, "Most book that I have read has had words in it" doesn't make sense.
Book is a countable noun, like coin or lake or doctor. You can't say "most doctor is trustworthy".
But lasagna is usually used (and is used in this sentence) as a "mass noun", like water and sand and advice. You can say "most advice is bad" or "most sand is brown". So "most lasagna that I have had" is perfectly fine, like "most water that I have seen" or "most advice that I have received".
posted by ManInSuit at 2:27 PM on March 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Book is a countable noun, like coin or lake or doctor. You can't say "most doctor is trustworthy".
But lasagna is usually used (and is used in this sentence) as a "mass noun", like water and sand and advice. You can say "most advice is bad" or "most sand is brown". So "most lasagna that I have had" is perfectly fine, like "most water that I have seen" or "most advice that I have received".
posted by ManInSuit at 2:27 PM on March 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
The shit doesn't have to have hit the fan, it just hit the fan. There is a move in current writing to drop the infinitive and go all out on action verbs. Your sentence is OK, but it could be cleaner, using a more descriptive verb.
posted by Oyéah at 4:34 PM on March 29, 2022
posted by Oyéah at 4:34 PM on March 29, 2022
The shit doesn't have to have hit the fan, it just hit the fan. There is a move in current writing to drop the infinitive and go all out on action verbs. Your sentence is OK, but it could be cleaner, using a more descriptive verb, as to what you were doing with the lasagna, to have a clear understanding of it's contents.
posted by Oyéah at 4:36 PM on March 29, 2022
posted by Oyéah at 4:36 PM on March 29, 2022
Most lasagna that I have had has had mushrooms in it.
I can't say 100% for correctness, but going from plural lasagna to singular it is weird and I would use them instead. There's many things that are technically correct but confusing and unless your intent is to confuse, it's better to go with what's understandable.
Consider "most pizzas that I have had has had mushrooms on it" vs "most pizzas that I have had has had mushrooms on them."
If there was only a singular case where something had happened, "it" could make sense. "Only once have I had lasagna that had banana peppers on it."
posted by Candleman at 7:40 PM on March 29, 2022
I can't say 100% for correctness, but going from plural lasagna to singular it is weird and I would use them instead. There's many things that are technically correct but confusing and unless your intent is to confuse, it's better to go with what's understandable.
Consider "most pizzas that I have had has had mushrooms on it" vs "most pizzas that I have had has had mushrooms on them."
If there was only a singular case where something had happened, "it" could make sense. "Only once have I had lasagna that had banana peppers on it."
posted by Candleman at 7:40 PM on March 29, 2022
I think replacing "most" with "every" would help. It may not be 100% factually correct, but as far as sentence structure goes, imo, it works/sounds better.
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 9:12 AM on March 30, 2022
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 9:12 AM on March 30, 2022
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