Am I the (covid) asshole?
March 5, 2022 5:13 PM Subscribe
I'm in my 50s, and live in southern california, where Omicron had been extremely high, but has been dropping rapidly. I teach, and my school is still on full COVID precautions (vaccines & boosters mandated, masking full time indoors). My parents have been in town visiting, and my covid precautions seem extreem to everyone. Needing a reality check.
Everyone is triple vaccinated. Partner and I are in our 50s, parents are early 80s.
Parents have been in town for 2 weeks, staying in their own timeshare, and they seem to be intent on eating at every single indoors restaurant in town.
My partner (who is on my side) and I told them "have fun" but that we wouldn't be joining them, we'd be doing takeout or home-cooked only.
All was working out until 3 days ago.
Day 1: went on a beach walk with them, and I felt like both of them had the sniffles, but it was windy and cold. Partner thought I was imagning things.
Day 2: parents told me they had canceled a dinner date with some friends because dad "had food poisoning" with GI symptoms and fatigue. We suggested they use a rapid test we had given them. Negative.
Day 2: I got my routine PCR screening test: negative.
Day 3: dad "was feeling much better". We had a celebration dinner planned with them, so we asked them to rapid test again, then brought takeout to their place.
Upon arrival, dad looked like hell, and this "food poisoning" was mainly visible as him having very runny noise, frequent nose blowing (so much that he ran out of kleenex during our visit) and a mild cough. Mom later says she thinks she had food poisoning a few days before dad (we think she was trying to assuage us, but this did the exact opposite).
I basically freak out at this point - fortunately their condo has a big deck and it was nice and breezy, and we ate our takeout outdoors. Soon after, I recovered my assertiveness, and said "nice dinner, thanks, we are leaving" and mumbled something about me feeling overworked and dad "looking like he needs some rest."
Day 4: dad is "doing much better" mom asks us to come help move their luggage due to an elevator malfunction so that dad won't have to walk 4 flights of stairs. Arrive (we are wearing N95s at this point) and literally run into dad who is huffing and puffing 2 things of luggage down the stairs. He sounds to me like he's not just breathing deeply, but doing that kind of Accessory Muscle Breathing that signals ill.
After all the lugage is in the cars, dad seems more OK and is breathing normally. Now says he "probably has a cold" and they depart.
I forgot to bring them more rapid tests, but used that as an excuse to text their next desination (their long-term friend, who is also in his 80s) to let him know I had forgotten and ask if he had any (this was largely because I was worried they had not told him about symptoms).
I reminded mom that false negavites are comon and Mom agrees that dad should rapid test each day.
Questions:
* I felt like I got a lot of pushback from people that I was being unreasonably cautious and my anxiety was pretty toxic. I tend towards OCD style thinking, so I want to hear this and deal properly.
* OTOH, even if this was not COVID, what sort of "food poisoning" gives a person vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, runny nose and cough? Even if not covid, I don't want norovius, influenza etc.
* I felt completely like mom "baited and switched" with the fancy dinner plans. To be more generous, dad lied to her about smptoms, though I don't think it's easy to ignore a person snorting and blowing their nose every 3 minutes, which makes me think mom was willfuly ignornant at best.
* I'm scheudled to teach Tuesday (day 7 by this count). I can get free PCR tests on campus. My main question is if I should get one on day 6 (the day before I teach) or day 7 (the day I teach). I wear a N95 religiously while teaching. Our PCR test results come in before midnight same day.
* boosted people in their 80s with possible symptoms - is rapid testing good enough or should they really be contacting their health care systems? E.g. is Paxlovid routine and avaialbe for 80+ year olds?
Everyone is triple vaccinated. Partner and I are in our 50s, parents are early 80s.
Parents have been in town for 2 weeks, staying in their own timeshare, and they seem to be intent on eating at every single indoors restaurant in town.
My partner (who is on my side) and I told them "have fun" but that we wouldn't be joining them, we'd be doing takeout or home-cooked only.
All was working out until 3 days ago.
Day 1: went on a beach walk with them, and I felt like both of them had the sniffles, but it was windy and cold. Partner thought I was imagning things.
Day 2: parents told me they had canceled a dinner date with some friends because dad "had food poisoning" with GI symptoms and fatigue. We suggested they use a rapid test we had given them. Negative.
Day 2: I got my routine PCR screening test: negative.
Day 3: dad "was feeling much better". We had a celebration dinner planned with them, so we asked them to rapid test again, then brought takeout to their place.
Upon arrival, dad looked like hell, and this "food poisoning" was mainly visible as him having very runny noise, frequent nose blowing (so much that he ran out of kleenex during our visit) and a mild cough. Mom later says she thinks she had food poisoning a few days before dad (we think she was trying to assuage us, but this did the exact opposite).
I basically freak out at this point - fortunately their condo has a big deck and it was nice and breezy, and we ate our takeout outdoors. Soon after, I recovered my assertiveness, and said "nice dinner, thanks, we are leaving" and mumbled something about me feeling overworked and dad "looking like he needs some rest."
Day 4: dad is "doing much better" mom asks us to come help move their luggage due to an elevator malfunction so that dad won't have to walk 4 flights of stairs. Arrive (we are wearing N95s at this point) and literally run into dad who is huffing and puffing 2 things of luggage down the stairs. He sounds to me like he's not just breathing deeply, but doing that kind of Accessory Muscle Breathing that signals ill.
After all the lugage is in the cars, dad seems more OK and is breathing normally. Now says he "probably has a cold" and they depart.
I forgot to bring them more rapid tests, but used that as an excuse to text their next desination (their long-term friend, who is also in his 80s) to let him know I had forgotten and ask if he had any (this was largely because I was worried they had not told him about symptoms).
I reminded mom that false negavites are comon and Mom agrees that dad should rapid test each day.
Questions:
* I felt like I got a lot of pushback from people that I was being unreasonably cautious and my anxiety was pretty toxic. I tend towards OCD style thinking, so I want to hear this and deal properly.
* OTOH, even if this was not COVID, what sort of "food poisoning" gives a person vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, runny nose and cough? Even if not covid, I don't want norovius, influenza etc.
* I felt completely like mom "baited and switched" with the fancy dinner plans. To be more generous, dad lied to her about smptoms, though I don't think it's easy to ignore a person snorting and blowing their nose every 3 minutes, which makes me think mom was willfuly ignornant at best.
* I'm scheudled to teach Tuesday (day 7 by this count). I can get free PCR tests on campus. My main question is if I should get one on day 6 (the day before I teach) or day 7 (the day I teach). I wear a N95 religiously while teaching. Our PCR test results come in before midnight same day.
* boosted people in their 80s with possible symptoms - is rapid testing good enough or should they really be contacting their health care systems? E.g. is Paxlovid routine and avaialbe for 80+ year olds?
It does sounds like your anxiety levels around this are a bit higher than is productive. Like, I agree that it was good of you to encourage your parents to test, but I'm not sure what you achieved by doubting their read on their own bodies. It's one thing to say "I'd feel better if you both did daily PCR tests" and another to decide you know more about your parents bodies than they do, and project the ensuing anxiety onto them. (FWIW, in my experience fatigue, flu-like symptoms can all happen as part of food poisoning - especially fatigue - I once could barely move I was so tired).
I'm not saying you're "the asshole" here, but it seems like part of your annoyance at your parents is caused by the fact that they have a different risk calculation than you do. This imbalance of risk assessment is something everyone in the US is dealing with in at least one of their relationships, and I think it's more productive to just communicate your needs and try not to judge another's assessment the best you can. You can also ask your parents not to judge your own assessment.
Does anywhere offer the non-instant type (sorry, forget what they are called) of test? Those are more sensitive (as you may know the instant PCR is about detecting infectious viral loads), and so should be able to give you greater peace of mind.
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 PM on March 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm not saying you're "the asshole" here, but it seems like part of your annoyance at your parents is caused by the fact that they have a different risk calculation than you do. This imbalance of risk assessment is something everyone in the US is dealing with in at least one of their relationships, and I think it's more productive to just communicate your needs and try not to judge another's assessment the best you can. You can also ask your parents not to judge your own assessment.
Does anywhere offer the non-instant type (sorry, forget what they are called) of test? Those are more sensitive (as you may know the instant PCR is about detecting infectious viral loads), and so should be able to give you greater peace of mind.
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 PM on March 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Not wanting to hang out with people who have been in a different behavior category than you (eating in restaurants) and who are also displaying COVID-type symptoms is a fine boundary to draw. Your parents should have kept you better apprised of what their actual symptom situation was.
I'd take the more medical questions to your doctor or your insurance's health advice nurse (if you have one).
posted by hungrytiger at 5:47 PM on March 5, 2022 [45 favorites]
I'd take the more medical questions to your doctor or your insurance's health advice nurse (if you have one).
posted by hungrytiger at 5:47 PM on March 5, 2022 [45 favorites]
I don't know, sounds pretty reasonable to me. When you know someone is not taking precautions and then they turn up with symptoms consistent with Covid, and they're not forthcoming about it, and the result is that you end up in a gathering with them that you would have declined if you had known, then why shouldn't you be concerned? Even before Covid, I would have been pissed if someone with a head cold lured me into dinner with them.
I think if you have no symptoms and wear the N95 while on campus, then you're fine to wait until day 7 to test.
posted by HotToddy at 5:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [44 favorites]
I think if you have no symptoms and wear the N95 while on campus, then you're fine to wait until day 7 to test.
posted by HotToddy at 5:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [44 favorites]
OP, I think I'm with you. Thank you for sticking up for yourself.
posted by amtho at 5:51 PM on March 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by amtho at 5:51 PM on March 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
You're not the asshole, they're totally.. if not assholes, at least willfully naive/ignorant here. Agree with hungrytiger.
posted by Alterscape at 6:04 PM on March 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 6:04 PM on March 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
You're acting reasonable and prudent - if you believe the virus is real, contagious, and still out there, you'd be an idiot to not try to keep it away from you. It's a contagious virus and there's no way of knowing if you're safe or not until you find out oops you weren't. I hope no one reading this ever experiences that.
posted by bleep at 6:23 PM on March 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:23 PM on March 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
I would also be really annoyed. Unfortunately, the government has done a terrible job conveying what studies and anecdotal evidence are showing (e.g., that if you're vaccinated and boosted then you may well get COVID symptoms before your RTs come back positive, that RTs can still be negative after you turn positive on PCRs and are contagious), so if you know this stuff then you can sound kind of tinfoil hat to people who want to trust the tests. And it's really stressful to feel pressured to act in ways that feel unsafe to you.
And I agree that them minimizing his sickness is rude regardless, but doubly so given COVID and your obvious desire to minimize possible risks there.
At the same time, both could be true -- they could be being careless (or unaware of the risks) and rude, and also perhaps you could've been more diplomatic, I don't know. I'm just saying that it's theoretically possible. So you can determine if it'd help to say something like "sorry, this whole situation is really stressful to me, but I didn't mean to be rude to you all if I came across that way."
It's hard to know how to handle having a higher caution threshold than others. I generally assume most people will act in ways I wouldn't and plan everything outdoors until I know otherwise. I've also found it better to set up "policies" (e.g., when incidence was really high, "we hang out with people indoors unmasked only if everyone has been sequestering for X days") and not to try to educate or discuss research with people who aren't interested in it. I have no idea how you handled it -- I just find this tricky and have been thinking about this a bit.
If it helps your peace of mind, incidence is really low. Sewage concentrations are a leading indicator and here they are for LACSD. (For future reference, you can click on "Testing Sewage for Coronavirus-Latest Data" here and it will generate the latest data.) As always, there are tons of other possible colds -- I've found myself surprised to remember that.
Sorry for all of this stress! I'm hopeful that you all will test negative and that you can get back to your safety precautions soon.
posted by slidell at 6:29 PM on March 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
And I agree that them minimizing his sickness is rude regardless, but doubly so given COVID and your obvious desire to minimize possible risks there.
At the same time, both could be true -- they could be being careless (or unaware of the risks) and rude, and also perhaps you could've been more diplomatic, I don't know. I'm just saying that it's theoretically possible. So you can determine if it'd help to say something like "sorry, this whole situation is really stressful to me, but I didn't mean to be rude to you all if I came across that way."
It's hard to know how to handle having a higher caution threshold than others. I generally assume most people will act in ways I wouldn't and plan everything outdoors until I know otherwise. I've also found it better to set up "policies" (e.g., when incidence was really high, "we hang out with people indoors unmasked only if everyone has been sequestering for X days") and not to try to educate or discuss research with people who aren't interested in it. I have no idea how you handled it -- I just find this tricky and have been thinking about this a bit.
If it helps your peace of mind, incidence is really low. Sewage concentrations are a leading indicator and here they are for LACSD. (For future reference, you can click on "Testing Sewage for Coronavirus-Latest Data" here and it will generate the latest data.) As always, there are tons of other possible colds -- I've found myself surprised to remember that.
Sorry for all of this stress! I'm hopeful that you all will test negative and that you can get back to your safety precautions soon.
posted by slidell at 6:29 PM on March 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is very reasonable and your parents were not acting reasonably. You are not being over cautious in any way.
posted by Bottlecap at 6:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 6:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
Another person in your corner here.
I'm relaxing restrictions a bit more than you (eating indoors once or twice a week). Still working from home and masking in public like the grocery store. Any place vulnerable people must go.
That said I'd be horrified by the behavior you mention. If someone seems ill, even a little, I expect them to stay away from me and others. I don't care how boosted you are!
I share in your discomfort. Whoever suggested you were being toxic is... well, you know that thing where people accuse others of what they in fact are the most guilty of? Yeah, that.
posted by pazazygeek at 6:53 PM on March 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm relaxing restrictions a bit more than you (eating indoors once or twice a week). Still working from home and masking in public like the grocery store. Any place vulnerable people must go.
That said I'd be horrified by the behavior you mention. If someone seems ill, even a little, I expect them to stay away from me and others. I don't care how boosted you are!
I share in your discomfort. Whoever suggested you were being toxic is... well, you know that thing where people accuse others of what they in fact are the most guilty of? Yeah, that.
posted by pazazygeek at 6:53 PM on March 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
I may be off base but I relate to your description of OCD Style, and I wonder if it might be helpful to remember that even if you don't need to be doing a certain set of precautions, you still are allowed to.
My area is similar to yours in that cases are rapidly falling, wastewater results (a leading indicator) indicate population levels are even lower than case rates would show, but also I'm not quite comfortable eating indoors yet. It's tough though because it does have to be balanced with your other obligations and precautions: if you had stayed home instead of help your parents, for example, your dad would have been hauling the stuff down the stairs on his own and that would be at least as risky. So you probably made the right call there, and there weren't any perfect options!
At their age lots of folks find a different risk calculus works for them, and it's OK for them to have a different calculus than you, for various reasons. And a different baseline for their bodies, too, including possibly routine shortness of breath or pains that they've accepted rather than risk surgery for, etc. I'd keep in touch and ask them how they're feeling, but labored breathing carrying something heavy down the steps wouldn't worry me by itself.
posted by Lady Li at 7:04 PM on March 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
My area is similar to yours in that cases are rapidly falling, wastewater results (a leading indicator) indicate population levels are even lower than case rates would show, but also I'm not quite comfortable eating indoors yet. It's tough though because it does have to be balanced with your other obligations and precautions: if you had stayed home instead of help your parents, for example, your dad would have been hauling the stuff down the stairs on his own and that would be at least as risky. So you probably made the right call there, and there weren't any perfect options!
At their age lots of folks find a different risk calculus works for them, and it's OK for them to have a different calculus than you, for various reasons. And a different baseline for their bodies, too, including possibly routine shortness of breath or pains that they've accepted rather than risk surgery for, etc. I'd keep in touch and ask them how they're feeling, but labored breathing carrying something heavy down the steps wouldn't worry me by itself.
posted by Lady Li at 7:04 PM on March 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Dude. No. You're not an asshole. First of all, with covid as a backdrop, minimizing/disguising symptoms is wildly disrespectful. I mean, at a minimum, if you got sick you wouldn't be able to teach in person anymore regardless of the severity of the disease. Hell, at some CA universities, they might not want you on campus if you started showing symptoms even if you were negative.
It's been two years of terrifying uncertainty - people should get some latitude in deciding what they need for psychological safety, particularly when it's in a direction that doesn't hurt anyone. Of course this has to be "within reason" but you just put them on alert AFTER VISIBLE SYMPTOMS. How is that unreasonable? I think of it this way -how many times have you gotten sick with listeria? And yet, if a pregnant woman chooses not to eat cold cuts or unpasteurized cheese, do we tell her she's overreacting?
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 7:08 PM on March 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's been two years of terrifying uncertainty - people should get some latitude in deciding what they need for psychological safety, particularly when it's in a direction that doesn't hurt anyone. Of course this has to be "within reason" but you just put them on alert AFTER VISIBLE SYMPTOMS. How is that unreasonable? I think of it this way -how many times have you gotten sick with listeria? And yet, if a pregnant woman chooses not to eat cold cuts or unpasteurized cheese, do we tell her she's overreacting?
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 7:08 PM on March 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
You're not an asshole. You have taken reasonable precautions, attempted to trust loved ones to be transparent with you about symptoms, and changed plans when it became apparent that they were not doing so. All reasonable.
You do at this point, unless asked, need to step out of their way re: their travel plans, testing plans, getting meds, etc. They know how you feel, their risk tolerance is not yours, and I think by continuing to engage about this they are likely to become less honest with you, not more.
I'm sorry. I know this sucks. My elderly parents are starting to hit their "we have limited time left on this earth and we've decided to go back to spending it indoors in restaurants" threshold. It's resulted in some difficult conversations with their children about "we wish you wouldn't, we respect that it's your decision, here's what we're going to change about our time with you to preserve our own levels of tolerable exposure." It hasn't been fun for anyone. But it was better to have the conversation than have everyone making bad assumptions and stewing quietly about each other's decisions.
posted by Stacey at 7:32 PM on March 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
You do at this point, unless asked, need to step out of their way re: their travel plans, testing plans, getting meds, etc. They know how you feel, their risk tolerance is not yours, and I think by continuing to engage about this they are likely to become less honest with you, not more.
I'm sorry. I know this sucks. My elderly parents are starting to hit their "we have limited time left on this earth and we've decided to go back to spending it indoors in restaurants" threshold. It's resulted in some difficult conversations with their children about "we wish you wouldn't, we respect that it's your decision, here's what we're going to change about our time with you to preserve our own levels of tolerable exposure." It hasn't been fun for anyone. But it was better to have the conversation than have everyone making bad assumptions and stewing quietly about each other's decisions.
posted by Stacey at 7:32 PM on March 5, 2022 [12 favorites]
It’s a COVID pandemic, they hung out in public indoor unmasked spaces for hours, and now they have COVID symptoms.
OF COURSE they have COVID.
You’re being kinda lenient if anything - I’d be sending a group text to their elderly friend saying “Hi Hank, since mom and dad both have Covid symptoms I’ll be so sad not to see you! Next time?”
In your shoes I’d also research layover options and flight refund policies for them, and possibly cancel their flight myself.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:49 PM on March 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
OF COURSE they have COVID.
You’re being kinda lenient if anything - I’d be sending a group text to their elderly friend saying “Hi Hank, since mom and dad both have Covid symptoms I’ll be so sad not to see you! Next time?”
In your shoes I’d also research layover options and flight refund policies for them, and possibly cancel their flight myself.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:49 PM on March 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for the responses (both those saying "yay" and those saying "nay")
When this happened, I was literally shaking with anger/anxiety - shaking phsycially - not a new feeling but when I've felt this before, I know "this isn't right" and I try to reach out. I also was not hungry for about 24 hours. (I like food, so this is weird). I don't have a big social (IRL) circle, so I asked here.
Thank you.
(p.s. we'll try to close the loop on this : who got sick / not sick etc. don't want to keep anyone hanging)
posted by soylent00FF00 at 7:52 PM on March 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
When this happened, I was literally shaking with anger/anxiety - shaking phsycially - not a new feeling but when I've felt this before, I know "this isn't right" and I try to reach out. I also was not hungry for about 24 hours. (I like food, so this is weird). I don't have a big social (IRL) circle, so I asked here.
Thank you.
(p.s. we'll try to close the loop on this : who got sick / not sick etc. don't want to keep anyone hanging)
posted by soylent00FF00 at 7:52 PM on March 5, 2022 [13 favorites]
My friend’s terrible boyfriend did this - had symptoms and a negative nasal swab test and insisted on going out as usual anyway including shopping. In the two days before he finally tested positive (using the nasal brand of test on his throat was what finally tested positive- his nose was still negative for days)... he gave Covid to three people that we know of.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:56 PM on March 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:56 PM on March 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
OP, you’re allowed to set boundaries that make you feel comfortable.
At the same time I do want to push back against the idea that anyone showing COVID symptoms is highly likely to have COVID.
Spending time in COVID-risky spaces ALSO exposes you to all kinds of other common respiratory viruses that are ultimately much more common than COVID. And at this point, Omicron symptoms are often very similar to the common cold, especially for vaccinated people.
Being cautious when someone has COVID-like symptoms is definitely reasonable. But assuming that they almost definitely have COVID is not.
posted by mekily at 8:44 PM on March 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
At the same time I do want to push back against the idea that anyone showing COVID symptoms is highly likely to have COVID.
Spending time in COVID-risky spaces ALSO exposes you to all kinds of other common respiratory viruses that are ultimately much more common than COVID. And at this point, Omicron symptoms are often very similar to the common cold, especially for vaccinated people.
Being cautious when someone has COVID-like symptoms is definitely reasonable. But assuming that they almost definitely have COVID is not.
posted by mekily at 8:44 PM on March 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's one of those where they almost certainly had/have it, tests are just plain not working well in this case.
You're in the right, the people hassling you are in the wrong...
And THIS EXACT SORT OF THING is what's going to trigger the next nasty variant sooner rather than later.
People are either stupid, irresponsible, lazy, or tired... and it's making the whole damn world careless.
I admit, I've slipped some, too... but at least I'm keeping my mask on and staying the hell out of restaurants!
posted by stormyteal at 8:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
You're in the right, the people hassling you are in the wrong...
And THIS EXACT SORT OF THING is what's going to trigger the next nasty variant sooner rather than later.
People are either stupid, irresponsible, lazy, or tired... and it's making the whole damn world careless.
I admit, I've slipped some, too... but at least I'm keeping my mask on and staying the hell out of restaurants!
posted by stormyteal at 8:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Your situation is in many ways very similar to mine in terms of ages, employment etc. I also have anxiety and my family knows it.
I've been struggling with very similar questions lately as my own risk tolerance is becoming increasingly out of step with my family's.
This is what help me assess a situation when I start spinning out and second guessing myself:
I check what I am trying to achieve. If its something that is outside of my control, I take that thing out of the equation. For example,
being kind in what I say and do, that is in my control. How someone thinks about me, or how they behave is not in my control.
Am I being kind so they will not get angry at me, not judge me, or be more likely to do something like take a Covid test?
Then I'm doomed to frustration because the tool I'm trying to use (my behaviour) can only influence another person's behaviour and thoughts in a very limited way.
They still get to choose what they think, feel or do, and it's not my responsibility to override that choice, whether for my own good, or theirs.
That doesn't mean I have to remain silent when I disagree with someone or change my behaviour to fit with their beliefs.
I also have an equal right to choose what I think, feel, and do.
All of this only works if I trust my own judgement about myself. Am I being honest with myself in this moment? I do my usual check-in with myself, and trust the answer that comes back.
If I go into a loop second-guessing myself, I do a reality check.
Does this choice I made,not line up with my goal? Is my choice coming from trying to achieve something can't control?
If so it might be time to recalibrate my behaviour.
None of this works if you don't trust that you have already put in the work of identifying a goal you believe in. Which you have done. Remind yourself "I'm trying to achieve x. I've already done the work of figuring out that is worth doing. I don't need to redo that work every time I feel uncertain or uncomfortable. X is worth achieving"
posted by Zumbador at 8:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've been struggling with very similar questions lately as my own risk tolerance is becoming increasingly out of step with my family's.
This is what help me assess a situation when I start spinning out and second guessing myself:
I check what I am trying to achieve. If its something that is outside of my control, I take that thing out of the equation. For example,
being kind in what I say and do, that is in my control. How someone thinks about me, or how they behave is not in my control.
Am I being kind so they will not get angry at me, not judge me, or be more likely to do something like take a Covid test?
Then I'm doomed to frustration because the tool I'm trying to use (my behaviour) can only influence another person's behaviour and thoughts in a very limited way.
They still get to choose what they think, feel or do, and it's not my responsibility to override that choice, whether for my own good, or theirs.
That doesn't mean I have to remain silent when I disagree with someone or change my behaviour to fit with their beliefs.
I also have an equal right to choose what I think, feel, and do.
All of this only works if I trust my own judgement about myself. Am I being honest with myself in this moment? I do my usual check-in with myself, and trust the answer that comes back.
If I go into a loop second-guessing myself, I do a reality check.
Does this choice I made,not line up with my goal? Is my choice coming from trying to achieve something can't control?
If so it might be time to recalibrate my behaviour.
None of this works if you don't trust that you have already put in the work of identifying a goal you believe in. Which you have done. Remind yourself "I'm trying to achieve x. I've already done the work of figuring out that is worth doing. I don't need to redo that work every time I feel uncertain or uncomfortable. X is worth achieving"
posted by Zumbador at 8:48 PM on March 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Masks come off March 14, inside schools in California. If you are fully vaxxed, with a booster, then you don't have to wear a mask anywere. I have all my shots, and I baby sat my grandson for a week masked while he had covid. I was careful, but nevertheless, I haven't had covid yet. I am pretty isolated, however. Yet I went to a large family gathering today, and no one was masked, same at last Thanksgiving. Worrying is hard on your immune system.
posted by Oyéah at 9:14 PM on March 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:14 PM on March 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Throughout the pandemic, everything has had 2 possible outcomes in hindsight:
1) it was an overreaction because nothing happened, or
2) it was a mistake because something happened.
Finding a reasonable balance between being safe and empathic to your community and actually living is hard and a complete grey area that no one can answer with 100% certainty for themselves, let alone others.
That said, I personally don't think anything you described was out of line. You needed to do what you thought was prudent given your situation. Beyond the health of yourself, your immediate family, and your parents, you were also considering the impact you have on your students and their families.
Story time - masks became optional in our schools starting 2 weeks ago. Numbers were down after the Omicron wave and we started to feel like things really could be a bit more normal. However, we continued erring on the side of caution with an under 5 year old in our house (not eating in restaurants, older siblings have kept their masks on in school, etc.) just as we have for the last 2+ years. We were really hoping to make it to the end of the month without incident when the youngest turns 5 and could finally get vaccinated too. In hindsight though, we made a stupid mistake. We had our (also fully vaxed - we literally did a double date for our boosters!) neighbors over for dinner last weekend. Fast forward to now and everyone in both families is currently positive and symptomatic. Every kid in the youngest's preschool class was exposed to her and (even though masks are still required at preschool) has to stay home for 10 days unless they provide negative test results. Our kids will miss a week and a half of school at minimum. We've missed several days of work already and all of next week is a crapshoot. Thankfully no one has had any serious complications and our work situations allow us to deal with this, but at the very least, it's so incredibly disruptive to many people. One sick kid on the bus and a stupid choice to have dinner has caused a chain reaction that has infected at least 9 other people, messed up many families' daily lives and potentially caused work/financial issues for them, etc.
I appreciate that you made a better effort than I did to not be a link in such a chain. EDIT: To directly answer your subject line, no you are not the COVID asshole. I am.
posted by hankscorpio83 at 9:50 PM on March 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
1) it was an overreaction because nothing happened, or
2) it was a mistake because something happened.
Finding a reasonable balance between being safe and empathic to your community and actually living is hard and a complete grey area that no one can answer with 100% certainty for themselves, let alone others.
That said, I personally don't think anything you described was out of line. You needed to do what you thought was prudent given your situation. Beyond the health of yourself, your immediate family, and your parents, you were also considering the impact you have on your students and their families.
Story time - masks became optional in our schools starting 2 weeks ago. Numbers were down after the Omicron wave and we started to feel like things really could be a bit more normal. However, we continued erring on the side of caution with an under 5 year old in our house (not eating in restaurants, older siblings have kept their masks on in school, etc.) just as we have for the last 2+ years. We were really hoping to make it to the end of the month without incident when the youngest turns 5 and could finally get vaccinated too. In hindsight though, we made a stupid mistake. We had our (also fully vaxed - we literally did a double date for our boosters!) neighbors over for dinner last weekend. Fast forward to now and everyone in both families is currently positive and symptomatic. Every kid in the youngest's preschool class was exposed to her and (even though masks are still required at preschool) has to stay home for 10 days unless they provide negative test results. Our kids will miss a week and a half of school at minimum. We've missed several days of work already and all of next week is a crapshoot. Thankfully no one has had any serious complications and our work situations allow us to deal with this, but at the very least, it's so incredibly disruptive to many people. One sick kid on the bus and a stupid choice to have dinner has caused a chain reaction that has infected at least 9 other people, messed up many families' daily lives and potentially caused work/financial issues for them, etc.
I appreciate that you made a better effort than I did to not be a link in such a chain. EDIT: To directly answer your subject line, no you are not the COVID asshole. I am.
posted by hankscorpio83 at 9:50 PM on March 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
As you recognize, you have no control over other people’s risk tolerances or behavior. But the absolute bare minimum you do have the right to expect from people during a pandemic is honesty about their symptoms and potential/known exposures.
Reality check: Being angry, and expressing that anger, when you have been lied to and manipulated is perfectly reasonable.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:53 PM on March 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Reality check: Being angry, and expressing that anger, when you have been lied to and manipulated is perfectly reasonable.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:53 PM on March 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Also, as stated above, our fully vaxed family also experienced the situation of getting negative test results while symptomatic. One didn't get a positive rapid test until roughly 36 hours after symptoms and the other was closer to 48 hours and even had a negative PCR result around the 18 hour mark.
Don't overly rely on test results. Consider all the information you have and use your best judgement. Based on what you described, I think you did that well.
posted by hankscorpio83 at 10:07 PM on March 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Don't overly rely on test results. Consider all the information you have and use your best judgement. Based on what you described, I think you did that well.
posted by hankscorpio83 at 10:07 PM on March 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
You are not the asshole. You are, in fact, courageous for standing your ground. Everyone is acting as if COVID is over, but it’s not. For one thing, there’s a new variant, Ba.2, that is making the rounds, and it’s 30% more contagious than Omicron. My brother is a paramedic working on an oil platform in Alaska, and is absolutely exhausted from working 24/7 without any time off (due to COVID) for most of the last 2 years.
For the last year, he’s mostly been doing vaccinations, testing, and accompanying patients on flights to the hospital. We had a conversation about two weeks ago, and he said that even he couldn’t believe how fast this new variant (also known as the Stealth Virus, for its ability to not show up on test results), is spreading.
Knowing this, I continue to mask and isolate at work, even though not one single other person at work is doing so. Fuck ‘em, frankly. I’ve not preached at anyone about it since the mask mandate was lifted, I just keep wearing my N95, and no one has dared to give me any shit about it and they all wear masks if they need to talk to me, because over the last two years I’ve made it clear that I have no tolerance for anyone daring to come at me with any anti-vaxx, anti-mask nonsense.
I have flat out said in a company-wide meeting, “You have the right to do whatever you want with your own health, but you do NOT have the right to infect anyone else!” IMO, someone refusing to honor your boundaries about COVID risk tolerance is no different from someone refusing to honor your boundaries about sex - it’s obnoxious and completely unacceptable behavior. It should be illegal. If they want to risk their lives and more importantly the lives of others, I’m damned if they get any slack from me. I have reasons to want to live, and I have reasons to not want to infect my neighbor on chemo, nor my coworkers’ children who are still too young to be vaccinated. I am just as sick of masking, not eating in restaurants, etc., as anyone else, but just as I wouldn’t drive drunk even if I was tired of walking, I won’t risk my own health or anyone else’s by disregarding intelligent safety precautions just because I’m tired of masking. Everyone has the right to protect their own health, and anyone who doesn’t respect that is an asshole.
Play offense, not defense. You are not the asshole, they are, and they have been acting in a completely uncivilized manner by thinking they have the right to decide for you what an acceptable level of risk tolerance is.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:23 AM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
For the last year, he’s mostly been doing vaccinations, testing, and accompanying patients on flights to the hospital. We had a conversation about two weeks ago, and he said that even he couldn’t believe how fast this new variant (also known as the Stealth Virus, for its ability to not show up on test results), is spreading.
Knowing this, I continue to mask and isolate at work, even though not one single other person at work is doing so. Fuck ‘em, frankly. I’ve not preached at anyone about it since the mask mandate was lifted, I just keep wearing my N95, and no one has dared to give me any shit about it and they all wear masks if they need to talk to me, because over the last two years I’ve made it clear that I have no tolerance for anyone daring to come at me with any anti-vaxx, anti-mask nonsense.
I have flat out said in a company-wide meeting, “You have the right to do whatever you want with your own health, but you do NOT have the right to infect anyone else!” IMO, someone refusing to honor your boundaries about COVID risk tolerance is no different from someone refusing to honor your boundaries about sex - it’s obnoxious and completely unacceptable behavior. It should be illegal. If they want to risk their lives and more importantly the lives of others, I’m damned if they get any slack from me. I have reasons to want to live, and I have reasons to not want to infect my neighbor on chemo, nor my coworkers’ children who are still too young to be vaccinated. I am just as sick of masking, not eating in restaurants, etc., as anyone else, but just as I wouldn’t drive drunk even if I was tired of walking, I won’t risk my own health or anyone else’s by disregarding intelligent safety precautions just because I’m tired of masking. Everyone has the right to protect their own health, and anyone who doesn’t respect that is an asshole.
Play offense, not defense. You are not the asshole, they are, and they have been acting in a completely uncivilized manner by thinking they have the right to decide for you what an acceptable level of risk tolerance is.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:23 AM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I am high risk. I would have left the moment someone complained of feeling unwell in any way that could be contagious. Even non-covid illness isn't fun and it's rude to have company over with anything that could be contagious. And it's extra rude and dangerous during covid times.
You are right to have a boundary to protect your health. Your anxiety isn't misplaced. This is a very dangerous time for everyone, regardless of what society and companies try to convince everyone of.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:48 AM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
You are right to have a boundary to protect your health. Your anxiety isn't misplaced. This is a very dangerous time for everyone, regardless of what society and companies try to convince everyone of.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:48 AM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Over in Singapore, we are masked all the time except at home and it’s completely normalised to do art tests often. What you did was very standard, their reaction - well we would be just staring astonished at them and it’s just way out of social norms. You are fine, you just live in a very lax country.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:29 AM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:29 AM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Even if not covid, I don't want norovius, influenza etc.
Just to add that this is also a good point, and I hope they're being careful with their 80-year-old friends. For what it's worth, a lot of people I know got very sick last month, though apparently not with covid - there's some unpleasant stuff going around, in my area at least.
posted by trig at 4:02 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just to add that this is also a good point, and I hope they're being careful with their 80-year-old friends. For what it's worth, a lot of people I know got very sick last month, though apparently not with covid - there's some unpleasant stuff going around, in my area at least.
posted by trig at 4:02 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I assess risk v reward for a living. Everyone has their own risk tolerances and their own risk profile. You are most comfortable when you control your own risk levels. When someone or something forces you to adhere to a different risk profile that causes emotional upheaval. In this case, you were forced to accept, or not, someone else's risk profile and, quite frankly, someone else's ethical profile. You should, and it is harder to do than say, be you and not accept someone else's imposition. So, ni, you are not a covid asshat.
There are certain circumstances where you have to accept someone else's risk profile at least the first time. For example, when you get in a cab, if it is the first time with that driver, you have to live with their driving risk.
The most important factor in assessing risk is accurate information. Not complete information, although that helps, but that the information you have is accurate. That leads me to your parents.
The only issue I have with them is them "cuffing" their symptoms. However, you were able to judge their symptoms in person. Always trust your own assessment over an unreliable self assessment by someone else.
The only other problem I see is that, when does this end? Will you be avoiding people for years? What are the criteria you need to go back to the way it was in say 2019? Maybe it is just time and getting more comfortable with the risk, maybe it is finding out there is a therapy that eliminates the worse risk, or maybe something else. Regardless, you be you. Don't worry about being a covid asshat. No such thing for someone who cares. It is the ones who don't care about others that fit the category.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:03 AM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
There are certain circumstances where you have to accept someone else's risk profile at least the first time. For example, when you get in a cab, if it is the first time with that driver, you have to live with their driving risk.
The most important factor in assessing risk is accurate information. Not complete information, although that helps, but that the information you have is accurate. That leads me to your parents.
The only issue I have with them is them "cuffing" their symptoms. However, you were able to judge their symptoms in person. Always trust your own assessment over an unreliable self assessment by someone else.
The only other problem I see is that, when does this end? Will you be avoiding people for years? What are the criteria you need to go back to the way it was in say 2019? Maybe it is just time and getting more comfortable with the risk, maybe it is finding out there is a therapy that eliminates the worse risk, or maybe something else. Regardless, you be you. Don't worry about being a covid asshat. No such thing for someone who cares. It is the ones who don't care about others that fit the category.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:03 AM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
You can't control other people's risk tolerance or choices.
However, Covid or no, OCD or no, it's not ok to get in someone's space while ill and be disingenuous about your symptoms.
They disrespected your safety and autonomy, and they're your parents, the people you're evolutionarily wired to count on for safety.
No wonder you're upset.
posted by champers at 4:44 AM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
However, Covid or no, OCD or no, it's not ok to get in someone's space while ill and be disingenuous about your symptoms.
They disrespected your safety and autonomy, and they're your parents, the people you're evolutionarily wired to count on for safety.
No wonder you're upset.
posted by champers at 4:44 AM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Oh boy. I am the opposite of covid cautious (check my posting history) but this would be a big NOPE to me!
That said, I do think it’s important to start letting go of trying to control others even if they’re beinf clueless. And the fact is, colds and food poisoning do still happen. You did the most you could do, so let it go.
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:28 AM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
That said, I do think it’s important to start letting go of trying to control others even if they’re beinf clueless. And the fact is, colds and food poisoning do still happen. You did the most you could do, so let it go.
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:28 AM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
For one thing, there’s a new variant, Ba.2, that is making the rounds, and it’s 30% more contagious than Omicron.
I hope pushing back on this this doesn't overstep AskMeta etiquette but a quick search shows that this might not be accurate.
From the article:
Schaffner pointed out that so far, there are no huge red flags that this variant of Omicron is vastly different from the original variant.
“It would be difficult for any variant to be more contagious than Omicron, and there is no indication that the subvariant is more contagious,” said Schaffner.
posted by Zumbador at 6:26 AM on March 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I hope pushing back on this this doesn't overstep AskMeta etiquette but a quick search shows that this might not be accurate.
From the article:
Schaffner pointed out that so far, there are no huge red flags that this variant of Omicron is vastly different from the original variant.
“It would be difficult for any variant to be more contagious than Omicron, and there is no indication that the subvariant is more contagious,” said Schaffner.
posted by Zumbador at 6:26 AM on March 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think your boundaries are absolutely reasonable but also, gently, would like to remind everyone that colds still exist.
They have now rapid tested negative many times, while symptomatic. It’s entirely possible that they in fact do NOT have covid. Your precautions were 100% correct but I’m just trying to reassure you that it’s not “obviously covid”.
posted by lydhre at 6:43 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
They have now rapid tested negative many times, while symptomatic. It’s entirely possible that they in fact do NOT have covid. Your precautions were 100% correct but I’m just trying to reassure you that it’s not “obviously covid”.
posted by lydhre at 6:43 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I hope pushing back on this this doesn't overstep AskMeta etiquette but a quick search shows that this might not be accurate.
That is one article. There are many, many articles from legitimate sources, saying differently. But would it even matter if it was “only” as contagious as omicron? Other people still don’t have the right to ignore your boundaries. Period.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:21 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is one article. There are many, many articles from legitimate sources, saying differently. But would it even matter if it was “only” as contagious as omicron? Other people still don’t have the right to ignore your boundaries. Period.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:21 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
.... another not-the-asshole. OCD behavior would have been to refuse to see them at all, or to force them not to eat indoors during their visit.
Local (or national) prevalence may change risk, and some may choose to eat indoors; this is fine, their choice to make.
But once anyone has symptoms, all of that is out the (opened) window, and the need to test and isolate does not change just because it's been 2 years and we're all tired. The probability of carrying the virus, given symptoms, is no different than it ever was.
posted by Dashy at 9:31 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Local (or national) prevalence may change risk, and some may choose to eat indoors; this is fine, their choice to make.
But once anyone has symptoms, all of that is out the (opened) window, and the need to test and isolate does not change just because it's been 2 years and we're all tired. The probability of carrying the virus, given symptoms, is no different than it ever was.
posted by Dashy at 9:31 AM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying you are unreasonable, but southern CA has extreme issues with pollen for occasional visitors because plants are always blooming. So does he have seasonal allergies? Has he experienced a runny nose there before his last few visits?
I visit for a few months a year in Southern CA, and I have to take allergy meds while there. The symptoms aren exactly what you are describing.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:13 AM on March 6, 2022
I visit for a few months a year in Southern CA, and I have to take allergy meds while there. The symptoms aren exactly what you are describing.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:13 AM on March 6, 2022
I'm just done with people minimizing their symptoms because they don't feel like being responsible and avoiding getting other people ill. It was terrible asshole behavior before the pandemic and it's worse now.
You were not the asshole, your parents were.
posted by winna at 5:05 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
You were not the asshole, your parents were.
posted by winna at 5:05 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think your behaviour is entirely reasonable and your parents were jerks for hiding their symptoms from you. They knew full well that you would not have had dinner with them if you had known what was going on and they chose to deceive you and take away your ability to do what you needed to be, and more importantly, feel as safe as possible.
The distinction between being and feeling safe is important, though, and I think many of us are going to have to figure out where the cost/benefit lines are. No matter what we do, even if we do it perfectly, we're not going to be able to eliminate all risk, so we're going to have to figure out what we need to do to protect ourselves psychologically as well as physically. That's why I agree with the commenters above, who say you should stop trying to control how your parents deal with risk in their own lives and in their interactions with others. They, and the people they interact with, are going to have to take responsibility for what do and what they tell people, just as the people they interact with will need to ask questions and make their own decisions.
posted by rpfields at 8:33 PM on March 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
The distinction between being and feeling safe is important, though, and I think many of us are going to have to figure out where the cost/benefit lines are. No matter what we do, even if we do it perfectly, we're not going to be able to eliminate all risk, so we're going to have to figure out what we need to do to protect ourselves psychologically as well as physically. That's why I agree with the commenters above, who say you should stop trying to control how your parents deal with risk in their own lives and in their interactions with others. They, and the people they interact with, are going to have to take responsibility for what do and what they tell people, just as the people they interact with will need to ask questions and make their own decisions.
posted by rpfields at 8:33 PM on March 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I love AskMe but hate ones with no solution or closure.
Here is the Closure:
Father was quite sick, but never tested positive, and recovered. Nobody else got sick.
Fast forward about a month.
Parents (now back at home) had a book club meeting - after a 2 year hiatus due to COVID.
They had their first in-person meeting this week.
The next day, they get an email saying somene tested positive.
Mom has tested positive today.
I recommended they seek out Paxlovid, so far they seem nonchalant.
Symptoms are minor so far, hoping for the best.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 5:31 PM on April 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here is the Closure:
Father was quite sick, but never tested positive, and recovered. Nobody else got sick.
Fast forward about a month.
Parents (now back at home) had a book club meeting - after a 2 year hiatus due to COVID.
They had their first in-person meeting this week.
The next day, they get an email saying somene tested positive.
Mom has tested positive today.
I recommended they seek out Paxlovid, so far they seem nonchalant.
Symptoms are minor so far, hoping for the best.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 5:31 PM on April 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh no! I hope everyone ends up okay.
posted by rpfields at 6:02 PM on April 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 6:02 PM on April 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
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* The day 6 vs 7 thing: me getting PCR tested the day before I teach is obviously the best answer, but requires me to do ~90 minutes extra traveling (as opposed to just doing it when I'm on campus since testing is on campus)
* parents live 3 states away, so are not in their normal healthcare system.
* parents are scheduled to fly home on day 7. Not sure if they know that they should not fly if covid+, and what they would do in that situation. They have money, so presumably they could get a hotel and wait, without much trouble.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 5:26 PM on March 5, 2022