am I a red flag?
February 26, 2022 5:59 PM Subscribe
Trying to assess whether my behavior with a romantic partner (ish) was red flag-y
Recently was "seeing someone" (not an established relationship). I made mistake of sticking around even though they said they weren't emotionally available to date now because of certain factors, because I really liked/felt connected to them, and because in some ways they were available to me and very affirming and expressing a desire to be a relationship someday :/.
Anyway, I'm not a casual dating type and pretty much have anxious attachment style so I was constantly insecure about things, for example, the lack of time he had to actually spend together and just the fact that he wasn't available for a relationship in general....and I would express these feelings to him.
When we'd get together/communicate, we would frequently chat about people we dated/hooked up with in the past , as the topic was interesting for both of us. I did not feel at all jealous hearing about his exes. However, one day it popped in my mind that he hadn't mentioned anyone he dated for last two years, and had talked about everyone else seemingly. He also said that he develops feelings for people when intimate. Anyway, I texted him rather abruptly and asked him if he dated anyone in the last two years. It wasn't accusatory though, just out of the blue. He said that he "talked" to someone in 2020/21 and was not anymore, but "I told you about all the major ones". (he'd told me that he was not seeing anyone else and we had established monogamy) I asked if he had developed feelings for that person, and he said, "I'd rather not talk about it", to which I asked why (this is all over text). I admitted that this made me anxious (that he was being so secretive when he had been so open about everyone else). After this he basically shut down and said that he couldn't deal with me "forcing my anxiety " on him.
I realize that this wasn't the right situation for me to be in, so not asking for advice about that, but more so about whether you think my behavior was problematic? Or understandable? maybe both? I'm just trying to get outside perspectives on my behavior and the situation. My own assessment is that the "situationship" was anxiety-invoking from the start and my anxiety skyrocketed when he was being secretive about his recent relationship... but at the same time I was being intrusive too.
Recently was "seeing someone" (not an established relationship). I made mistake of sticking around even though they said they weren't emotionally available to date now because of certain factors, because I really liked/felt connected to them, and because in some ways they were available to me and very affirming and expressing a desire to be a relationship someday :/.
Anyway, I'm not a casual dating type and pretty much have anxious attachment style so I was constantly insecure about things, for example, the lack of time he had to actually spend together and just the fact that he wasn't available for a relationship in general....and I would express these feelings to him.
When we'd get together/communicate, we would frequently chat about people we dated/hooked up with in the past , as the topic was interesting for both of us. I did not feel at all jealous hearing about his exes. However, one day it popped in my mind that he hadn't mentioned anyone he dated for last two years, and had talked about everyone else seemingly. He also said that he develops feelings for people when intimate. Anyway, I texted him rather abruptly and asked him if he dated anyone in the last two years. It wasn't accusatory though, just out of the blue. He said that he "talked" to someone in 2020/21 and was not anymore, but "I told you about all the major ones". (he'd told me that he was not seeing anyone else and we had established monogamy) I asked if he had developed feelings for that person, and he said, "I'd rather not talk about it", to which I asked why (this is all over text). I admitted that this made me anxious (that he was being so secretive when he had been so open about everyone else). After this he basically shut down and said that he couldn't deal with me "forcing my anxiety " on him.
I realize that this wasn't the right situation for me to be in, so not asking for advice about that, but more so about whether you think my behavior was problematic? Or understandable? maybe both? I'm just trying to get outside perspectives on my behavior and the situation. My own assessment is that the "situationship" was anxiety-invoking from the start and my anxiety skyrocketed when he was being secretive about his recent relationship... but at the same time I was being intrusive too.
To answer directly: yes, your actions appear problematic to me. You asked a pretty personal question over text and with no context. You then proceeded to probe for additional information even when he expressed discomfort.
It’s great that you’re noticing these patterns - I think that’s a big part of addressing issues.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 6:34 PM on February 26, 2022 [33 favorites]
It’s great that you’re noticing these patterns - I think that’s a big part of addressing issues.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 6:34 PM on February 26, 2022 [33 favorites]
I don't think there was anything wrong about asking, but when someone says they'd rather not talk about something, you kind of do have to drop it. Not wanting to talk about a sensitive topic, at the drop of a hat, over text, with someone who is feeling anxious, is probably better described as "prudent" than "secretive". Your anxiety is understandable, but in general it's not a good idea to fire off a bunch of texts at anyone when you're feeling like that. If something anxiety provoking is on your mind and your first thought is, "I know who can answer this for me, and they better answer me RIGHT NOW", it's better to write it all down in your journal first, then get an outside opinion on it the next day. THEN sit down with the person with a clear head, and ask them to talk about it with you. But still, if someone doesn't want to talk about something, after assuring you you don't have to worry about it, that's their choice.
posted by bleep at 6:35 PM on February 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:35 PM on February 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
One of the things it took me wayyyyy too long to realize as an adult was that “anxiety” is way too often used as an excuse for controlling behavior. It’s totally ok to feel anxious, but using it as a reason to push past someone’s boundary isn’t. A useful rule of thumb is to hear how the sentence would sound if you replaced “anxious” with “angry.” It may make you feel some sort of way that he declines to answer a personal question about his romantic history, but that fact doesn’t impose an obligation on him.
I’m coming from this as someone who used to do this all the time, so it’s not that I don’t sympathize, and again I commend you for taking it seriously.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 7:56 PM on February 26, 2022 [67 favorites]
I’m coming from this as someone who used to do this all the time, so it’s not that I don’t sympathize, and again I commend you for taking it seriously.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 7:56 PM on February 26, 2022 [67 favorites]
not being jealous isn't like some kind of coin that buys you the right to more intimate knowledge. the reason some people choose to keep private things private isn't because they're afraid of arousing violent jealousy, and it isn't an insult to you that they choose not to share every private thing, as if they are selfishly hoarding private details of their own life because they don't trust you to react well to finding out about them. rather, they don't talk about certain things simply because that's what privacy means to them.
I do not think it is acceptable to lie, unprovoked, about one's sexual or romantic history. I think it is acceptable to lie, when provoked, about one's sexual or romantic history in vanishingly few circumstances, most of them connected to protecting the privacy of other people or protecting one's own personal safety. and I think it is always acceptable to tell the broad outline of the truth, without intent to mislead, and decline to give further details. "I was briefly involved with someone last year, it's over, and I don't want to talk about it in any detail." "I am not in touch with my parents because of things that happened when I was young, and it upsets me to explain what, so I don't." and so on. these are things that, when they are said to you, leave you two good choices: say All right, I'm curious because I want to know everything about you, and if you ever do want to talk about it I want to listen, but I understand; or say All right, I respect your right to privacy but I know myself and I know that as long as I don't know the details I will not be able to leave it alone, so I think I should step away so that we can remember each other with fond affection and not frustrated resentment.
I do not use or endorse the term "red flag" but insofar as I think I know what you mean by it, I think that any third course of action in this circumstance does constitute one. yes.
people can decide to forgive pushy behavior if they want to, though. no law against it. and re: the problematic/understandable axis, personally I find that the behavior I feel least inclined to forgive is the behavior I understand the very best.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:27 PM on February 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I do not think it is acceptable to lie, unprovoked, about one's sexual or romantic history. I think it is acceptable to lie, when provoked, about one's sexual or romantic history in vanishingly few circumstances, most of them connected to protecting the privacy of other people or protecting one's own personal safety. and I think it is always acceptable to tell the broad outline of the truth, without intent to mislead, and decline to give further details. "I was briefly involved with someone last year, it's over, and I don't want to talk about it in any detail." "I am not in touch with my parents because of things that happened when I was young, and it upsets me to explain what, so I don't." and so on. these are things that, when they are said to you, leave you two good choices: say All right, I'm curious because I want to know everything about you, and if you ever do want to talk about it I want to listen, but I understand; or say All right, I respect your right to privacy but I know myself and I know that as long as I don't know the details I will not be able to leave it alone, so I think I should step away so that we can remember each other with fond affection and not frustrated resentment.
I do not use or endorse the term "red flag" but insofar as I think I know what you mean by it, I think that any third course of action in this circumstance does constitute one. yes.
people can decide to forgive pushy behavior if they want to, though. no law against it. and re: the problematic/understandable axis, personally I find that the behavior I feel least inclined to forgive is the behavior I understand the very best.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:27 PM on February 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think it's hard to know if you overstepped a reasonable boundary here without knowing the specifics of how you were both used to communicating, and what specifically you both said — you stopped giving detail in your question right at the point in the conversation that's most important for understanding whether it was OK or not.
In general, asking why someone doesn't want to talk about something seems reasonable to me, but pushing further after that if they don't want that doesn't — you need to be able to accept "I just don't want to talk about it" as an answer, so long as it's about something that doesn't directly affect you, as in this case. Also, asking why they didn't want to talk about it and saying you were anxious about it in the same message (or without waiting for a response) seems like it would be bad, it's unclear to me if you did that. Do you feel like the way you interacted with them gave them a way to address the things you were saying about your anxiety without revealing more information about this past partner? If not, then you were, in a roundabout way, ignoring their request not to talk about it.
posted by wesleyac at 8:39 PM on February 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
In general, asking why someone doesn't want to talk about something seems reasonable to me, but pushing further after that if they don't want that doesn't — you need to be able to accept "I just don't want to talk about it" as an answer, so long as it's about something that doesn't directly affect you, as in this case. Also, asking why they didn't want to talk about it and saying you were anxious about it in the same message (or without waiting for a response) seems like it would be bad, it's unclear to me if you did that. Do you feel like the way you interacted with them gave them a way to address the things you were saying about your anxiety without revealing more information about this past partner? If not, then you were, in a roundabout way, ignoring their request not to talk about it.
posted by wesleyac at 8:39 PM on February 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: he started off answering the questions, but then said he didn't want to talk about it when I asked something specific about his feelings for the person. I asked why he didn't want to, and he said he just didn't. I then commented that the length of the relationship was long to not want to discuss it but said ok . I also said that it made me anxious that he didn't want to discuss it [and went into detail about why i was anxious].. I also apologized for pushing the issue and acknowledged i was intrusive.
posted by bearette at 8:48 PM on February 26, 2022
posted by bearette at 8:48 PM on February 26, 2022
Response by poster: sorry, i should clarify that the relationship between me and this person is/was romantic/sexual in nature, just not a labeled relationship- I guess it's unclear from my question
posted by bearette at 9:04 PM on February 26, 2022
posted by bearette at 9:04 PM on February 26, 2022
I mean 2020/21 means it just happened! & no matter how good or bad or wounding or inconsequential the experience was, it is still fresh and real, not a bygone sexy story that is half consolatory fantasy & half retold self-mythologizing by now, as most of our relationships get to be in our own minds given enough time & distance.
maybe he wants to forget it ever happened and rehashing the details of a bad memory will make that more difficult. maybe he wants to keep a fond memory fond and alive, which means not cheapening it by trading it around as bonding currency to new partners. those may sound like different reasons but I think they are different variants of the same reason (recent things are real and real things deserve care and respect). to people who think this way, this way of thinking can seem genuinely too obvious to need intricate explaining.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:07 PM on February 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
maybe he wants to forget it ever happened and rehashing the details of a bad memory will make that more difficult. maybe he wants to keep a fond memory fond and alive, which means not cheapening it by trading it around as bonding currency to new partners. those may sound like different reasons but I think they are different variants of the same reason (recent things are real and real things deserve care and respect). to people who think this way, this way of thinking can seem genuinely too obvious to need intricate explaining.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:07 PM on February 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
this person is/was romantic/sexual in nature
Doesn't matter. One sided. You haven't managed friend to lover to friend and the recent privacy thing. Are they friend? Or are they still you're target? You're not being friend by poking into their now like it's your business to know. Can you handle that? Can you be friend after the romance? It's a thing.... Do you like them because you were together or do you like them for who they are? Friends don't pry so deeply (nor maybe so quickly). I had a girlfriend who pestered me so much after I told her she didn't want to know until I told her and she was OMG, I didn't want to know that and I'm all told you so. Friends honor boundaries. Stay friends and they'll tell you later. Move on.
posted by zengargoyle at 11:52 PM on February 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Doesn't matter. One sided. You haven't managed friend to lover to friend and the recent privacy thing. Are they friend? Or are they still you're target? You're not being friend by poking into their now like it's your business to know. Can you handle that? Can you be friend after the romance? It's a thing.... Do you like them because you were together or do you like them for who they are? Friends don't pry so deeply (nor maybe so quickly). I had a girlfriend who pestered me so much after I told her she didn't want to know until I told her and she was OMG, I didn't want to know that and I'm all told you so. Friends honor boundaries. Stay friends and they'll tell you later. Move on.
posted by zengargoyle at 11:52 PM on February 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like others, I think it's great that you're asking this question. Learning to both set and respect boundaries is hard!
Insecurity sucks, and anxiety is awful. To me, this is both understandable and deeply problematic behavior, and it has nothing to do with anything about what he felt in that moment or how he responded.
If this person has told you they're not emotionally available for dating right now, they're not the person to process your insecurity with, especially not about the amount of time they have to spend with you or their disinterest in a relationship. We don't owe anyone reassurance about how our disinterest in relationship activates their negative feelings - that pushes against the boundary we set and is likely to lead us to feeling guilt, anger, or both at having to comfort them or otherwise process their feelings.
Personally, I am trying to distance myself immediately from romantic/sex partners *or* friends who want to talk to me about their insecurity or negative emotions in response to my saying I'm interested in [sex, casual hangouts, getting to know each other] but not [relationship, talking every day, becoming besties] - I've had some toxic experiences with people telling me how upset they are with my not wanting them, and then burning myself and getting angry out trying to convince them that they *are* worthy, they *will* find someone. This is in part because I myself am deeply insecure about some shit! This is why I'm in therapy, and trying to pay attention so that I don't become that Toxic Someone for a friend or lover in my own life.
On to the conversation at hand. Here's another marker I perk up to: "However, one day it popped in my mind that he hadn't mentioned anyone he dated for last two years, and had talked about everyone else seemingly. He also said that he develops feelings for people when intimate." This is a point at which I'd recommend pulling out a journal and/or talking to a therapist.
At a meta-level, your brain is analyzing his conversations for trend data about exes - why? Why would it matter if he had or hadn't dated anyone in the last two years? If he had, why would it matter whether he had feelings for that person? What would you have done with that knowledge? From your post, it sounds like that knowledge might actually have been fuel for a damaging fire, a thought that would have hurt you - what did *she* have? Why doesn't he have feelings for *me*? Noticing that your brain is looking for non-relevant information isn't a time to ask a question that will find it out - it's a time to soothe your anxiety and re-ground yourself.
In your "situationship", you've said that your talk about exes has been light and casual. If you talked lightly and casually about some of your favorite movies, but not all of them, would that be considered being "secretive"? If not, why not?
Why *do* you think what he did was "secretive"? Even if you were in a relationship, the details of our past relationships are personal and sometimes precious and tender, and may require deep trust and the confidence of another person's discretion and respect before being shared, if ever. I would definitely consider it a red flag if a casual romance/sex partner called me "secretive" for not sharing all the details of meaningful past relationships.
On top of all of this, you pushed multiple times in the text conversation. When he said he didn't want to talk about it, you didn't respect his boundary. You asked him why, you told him why *you* thought he should tell you (the length of the relationship), you told him his boundary made you anxious, you went into detail about your anxiety. All of this feels really, really inappropriate to me.
It feels, if you'll pardon my frankness, as though you are trying to have the intimacy of a committed relationship - where people often do talk about their insecurities and work through them with the support of a loving partner - with someone who has expressly stated that they aren't interested in a relationship with you. This situation sounds like it exacerbates your negative feelings about yourself, and negative interaction patterns with others - and it seems likely it will continue to exacerbate them in future. I hope you find ways to take a pause and get the support you need from people who are well-positioned to give it, and that over time you find ways to manage and abate your insecurity and anxiety.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 12:22 AM on February 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
Insecurity sucks, and anxiety is awful. To me, this is both understandable and deeply problematic behavior, and it has nothing to do with anything about what he felt in that moment or how he responded.
If this person has told you they're not emotionally available for dating right now, they're not the person to process your insecurity with, especially not about the amount of time they have to spend with you or their disinterest in a relationship. We don't owe anyone reassurance about how our disinterest in relationship activates their negative feelings - that pushes against the boundary we set and is likely to lead us to feeling guilt, anger, or both at having to comfort them or otherwise process their feelings.
Personally, I am trying to distance myself immediately from romantic/sex partners *or* friends who want to talk to me about their insecurity or negative emotions in response to my saying I'm interested in [sex, casual hangouts, getting to know each other] but not [relationship, talking every day, becoming besties] - I've had some toxic experiences with people telling me how upset they are with my not wanting them, and then burning myself and getting angry out trying to convince them that they *are* worthy, they *will* find someone. This is in part because I myself am deeply insecure about some shit! This is why I'm in therapy, and trying to pay attention so that I don't become that Toxic Someone for a friend or lover in my own life.
On to the conversation at hand. Here's another marker I perk up to: "However, one day it popped in my mind that he hadn't mentioned anyone he dated for last two years, and had talked about everyone else seemingly. He also said that he develops feelings for people when intimate." This is a point at which I'd recommend pulling out a journal and/or talking to a therapist.
At a meta-level, your brain is analyzing his conversations for trend data about exes - why? Why would it matter if he had or hadn't dated anyone in the last two years? If he had, why would it matter whether he had feelings for that person? What would you have done with that knowledge? From your post, it sounds like that knowledge might actually have been fuel for a damaging fire, a thought that would have hurt you - what did *she* have? Why doesn't he have feelings for *me*? Noticing that your brain is looking for non-relevant information isn't a time to ask a question that will find it out - it's a time to soothe your anxiety and re-ground yourself.
In your "situationship", you've said that your talk about exes has been light and casual. If you talked lightly and casually about some of your favorite movies, but not all of them, would that be considered being "secretive"? If not, why not?
Why *do* you think what he did was "secretive"? Even if you were in a relationship, the details of our past relationships are personal and sometimes precious and tender, and may require deep trust and the confidence of another person's discretion and respect before being shared, if ever. I would definitely consider it a red flag if a casual romance/sex partner called me "secretive" for not sharing all the details of meaningful past relationships.
On top of all of this, you pushed multiple times in the text conversation. When he said he didn't want to talk about it, you didn't respect his boundary. You asked him why, you told him why *you* thought he should tell you (the length of the relationship), you told him his boundary made you anxious, you went into detail about your anxiety. All of this feels really, really inappropriate to me.
It feels, if you'll pardon my frankness, as though you are trying to have the intimacy of a committed relationship - where people often do talk about their insecurities and work through them with the support of a loving partner - with someone who has expressly stated that they aren't interested in a relationship with you. This situation sounds like it exacerbates your negative feelings about yourself, and negative interaction patterns with others - and it seems likely it will continue to exacerbate them in future. I hope you find ways to take a pause and get the support you need from people who are well-positioned to give it, and that over time you find ways to manage and abate your insecurity and anxiety.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 12:22 AM on February 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
One small facet of this situation is the potential system of dependency it can lead to. This isn't specific about romantic relationships or anxiety, it can pop up in incredibly dull settings such as office work between colleagues who barely know each other. The pattern goes:
Person A: help, i have a problem
Person B: i will immediately help you resolve your problem
this single interaction isn't necessarily problematic, but can degenerate if the problem keeps recurring, and Person A learns that whenever they experience their problem, they expect and depend upon Person B to resolve their problem for them.
if Person B responds with the request for help with a boundary and doesn't immediately solve the problem for Person A, then Person B avoids being expected to continually manage Person A's problem, and over time Person A can learn to independently manage their own problem better. Even if Person B cares a lot about Person A, the "winning move" might be for Person B to respond to requests with a boundary and not engage and avoid contributing to some kind of co-dependency system.
In a work setting the problem might be "i cant find where i saved my important document" and in a romantic situation the problem might be "i am feeling anxious about our romantic relationship".
posted by are-coral-made at 4:02 AM on February 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Person A: help, i have a problem
Person B: i will immediately help you resolve your problem
this single interaction isn't necessarily problematic, but can degenerate if the problem keeps recurring, and Person A learns that whenever they experience their problem, they expect and depend upon Person B to resolve their problem for them.
if Person B responds with the request for help with a boundary and doesn't immediately solve the problem for Person A, then Person B avoids being expected to continually manage Person A's problem, and over time Person A can learn to independently manage their own problem better. Even if Person B cares a lot about Person A, the "winning move" might be for Person B to respond to requests with a boundary and not engage and avoid contributing to some kind of co-dependency system.
In a work setting the problem might be "i cant find where i saved my important document" and in a romantic situation the problem might be "i am feeling anxious about our romantic relationship".
posted by are-coral-made at 4:02 AM on February 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
You want to know what I, an Old, think? I think that certain relationship structures make non-ideal behavior likely and this would not happen in other, better-chosen relationship structures. You aren't a red flag (you have self-insight and, I assume, no particular pattern of intrusive behavior); you were in a "relationship" founded on precarity and restriction and that predisposes you to anxiety and the guy to withholding fairly normal information.
It's normal to feel anxious and seek more information when you're in a precarious relationship. It's reasonable to wonder why a partner would totally avoid even mentioning a fairly significant relationship that happened right before you met. It is the precarity and emotional withholding of the relationship that make questioning and anxiety likely.
Like, we often attribute to people's character and intentions things that are generated by their situation. A friend of mine had panic attacks and was really emotionally labile and their then-partner was all "this is manipulative, this is abusive, you take up too much space and make things about you all the time"...and the missing factor here was that my friend was basically homeless and unable to access needed physical medical care while their partner lived a life of wealth. The panic and lability came from the homelessness. But both my friend and their then partner blamed my friend's character.
Strangely, since my friend has been stably housed, employed and insured, that "red flag" panic and lability have totally disappeared.
I'd say that we as a society are in the process of normalizing in the romantic realm the same kind of isolation, compartmentalization and rigid demands that we put on workers and developing a narrative which says that people are individually bad when they can't hack bad conditions.
If that dude wasn't in an emotional space to date, frankly he should not have been de facto dating you. Not calling it dating doesn't mean it's not dating; that's just the romance version of saying a person is a contractor for tax and benefits reasons when they're really an employee.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on February 27, 2022 [53 favorites]
It's normal to feel anxious and seek more information when you're in a precarious relationship. It's reasonable to wonder why a partner would totally avoid even mentioning a fairly significant relationship that happened right before you met. It is the precarity and emotional withholding of the relationship that make questioning and anxiety likely.
Like, we often attribute to people's character and intentions things that are generated by their situation. A friend of mine had panic attacks and was really emotionally labile and their then-partner was all "this is manipulative, this is abusive, you take up too much space and make things about you all the time"...and the missing factor here was that my friend was basically homeless and unable to access needed physical medical care while their partner lived a life of wealth. The panic and lability came from the homelessness. But both my friend and their then partner blamed my friend's character.
Strangely, since my friend has been stably housed, employed and insured, that "red flag" panic and lability have totally disappeared.
I'd say that we as a society are in the process of normalizing in the romantic realm the same kind of isolation, compartmentalization and rigid demands that we put on workers and developing a narrative which says that people are individually bad when they can't hack bad conditions.
If that dude wasn't in an emotional space to date, frankly he should not have been de facto dating you. Not calling it dating doesn't mean it's not dating; that's just the romance version of saying a person is a contractor for tax and benefits reasons when they're really an employee.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on February 27, 2022 [53 favorites]
I have never understood the pretending-not-to-be-dating thing either - you're seeing someone or you're not, and the better you get to know them the more you like them, unless you don't, and then you stop, is how I do it (I also am Old.) everyone else seems to do the same thing, only some of them have fancy words for it and specialty boutique anxieties about it that can only be assuaged with Terminology.
but then I see people talking as if asking and asking for details of a prior relationship is just something normal that you get to do if you're dating, like dating dating, like Dating, and I confess I suddenly do understand why a reasonable person might want to date somebody but say, Oh, I like you, but let's not "date" date". I'd rather continue to not get it but ok, I do get it. it's a bad and silly solution to a real problem.
respect for previous partners, including respect for their privacy if they care about that, is such a non-negotiable basic part of human decency to me that I am not comfortable seeing people who tell me things about their exes that are not my business to know. the more recent the ex, the more urgent a principle this is. I do not believe, and think it is dangerous and harmful to concede, that this is only a principle you get to hold in casual affairs, that it is somehow more natural to pry deeply in serious relationships. but I also think that if you think you need an excuse to maintain varying levels of privacy about information of varying sensitivity, you are going to use whatever excuse is closest to hand. and if "you're not entitled to pry because we're not really dating" is considered to be the only officially acceptable excuse in your social circle, it is the one you will use.
much better to understand that you do not need an excuse or a superficial fake relationship in order to have a personal history and a private life with intimate inner parts that do not get opened up for public showings, though.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:39 AM on February 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
but then I see people talking as if asking and asking for details of a prior relationship is just something normal that you get to do if you're dating, like dating dating, like Dating, and I confess I suddenly do understand why a reasonable person might want to date somebody but say, Oh, I like you, but let's not "date" date". I'd rather continue to not get it but ok, I do get it. it's a bad and silly solution to a real problem.
respect for previous partners, including respect for their privacy if they care about that, is such a non-negotiable basic part of human decency to me that I am not comfortable seeing people who tell me things about their exes that are not my business to know. the more recent the ex, the more urgent a principle this is. I do not believe, and think it is dangerous and harmful to concede, that this is only a principle you get to hold in casual affairs, that it is somehow more natural to pry deeply in serious relationships. but I also think that if you think you need an excuse to maintain varying levels of privacy about information of varying sensitivity, you are going to use whatever excuse is closest to hand. and if "you're not entitled to pry because we're not really dating" is considered to be the only officially acceptable excuse in your social circle, it is the one you will use.
much better to understand that you do not need an excuse or a superficial fake relationship in order to have a personal history and a private life with intimate inner parts that do not get opened up for public showings, though.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:39 AM on February 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
also not to be TOO obvious but, you know, maybe he wasn't seeing anybody for a full two years and just vagued something up because he thought you were suggesting it would have been real weird if he hadn't.
explains everything just as well as anything else, and better than some things.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:46 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
explains everything just as well as anything else, and better than some things.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:46 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
The red flag I see is that you were not interested in a casual relationship but you pretended it was ok and still engaged in one.
That caused anxiety and tension to build pressure inside you so you behaved in uncontrolled ways: asking about his past over text, and abruptly, and repeatedly. Anxiety cannot be suppressed - it bubbles out.
So to me the red flag is that you didn’t respect your own boundaries. You want to be in a monogamous, sharing relationship - and that’s valid!
But you aren’t respecting yourself enough to hold out for that- you are settling for something else and pretending it’s ok, which exacerbated your anxiety until you couldn’t control it and it blurted out over text.
If you try to build a foundation on sand, the building will always lurch.
If you try to force a committed relationship with an uncommitted partner, your sense of confidence and safety will always lurch.
Figure out what makes for stable ground for you personally (probably monogamy, commitment, building to a shared future, lots of verbal intimacy and self analysis - all lovely and valid things ) ....and don’t compromise on those important things! You’re worth it!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:00 AM on February 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
That caused anxiety and tension to build pressure inside you so you behaved in uncontrolled ways: asking about his past over text, and abruptly, and repeatedly. Anxiety cannot be suppressed - it bubbles out.
So to me the red flag is that you didn’t respect your own boundaries. You want to be in a monogamous, sharing relationship - and that’s valid!
But you aren’t respecting yourself enough to hold out for that- you are settling for something else and pretending it’s ok, which exacerbated your anxiety until you couldn’t control it and it blurted out over text.
If you try to build a foundation on sand, the building will always lurch.
If you try to force a committed relationship with an uncommitted partner, your sense of confidence and safety will always lurch.
Figure out what makes for stable ground for you personally (probably monogamy, commitment, building to a shared future, lots of verbal intimacy and self analysis - all lovely and valid things ) ....and don’t compromise on those important things! You’re worth it!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:00 AM on February 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
I agree with all those suggesting that if someone draws a boundary around your relationship that makes you anxious but you agree to accept it, it's not fair to then expect them to process/absorb your anxiety around that boundary. It sounds like this guy was honest with you, and you had the option of being honest back - i.e. letting him know his offer didn't appeal to you, and part ways. Instead, I agree with him - you did force your anxiety on him.
And even though I'm not quite yet an Old, I strongly recommend text messages to be limited to pragmatics ("I'm running 10min late"), pictures of your pet, links to interesting articles, etc. Any important conversation should happen face-to-face or at the very least in a phone call.
posted by coffeecat at 10:40 AM on February 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
And even though I'm not quite yet an Old, I strongly recommend text messages to be limited to pragmatics ("I'm running 10min late"), pictures of your pet, links to interesting articles, etc. Any important conversation should happen face-to-face or at the very least in a phone call.
posted by coffeecat at 10:40 AM on February 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
It wasn't accusatory though, just out of the blue.... (he'd told me that he was not seeing anyone else and we had established monogamy) I asked if he had developed feelings for that person, and he said, "I'd rather not talk about it", to which I asked why (this is all over text). I admitted that this made me anxious (that he was being so secretive when he had been so open about everyone else
I guess I am confused about a few things and it may be useful to highlight them here. I am an anxious person and have worked pretty hard to make my anxieties not someone else's problem while at the same time using a lot of "I" language about my own feelings so that I am not just miserable.
So you say you are not in an established relationship with this person but also that you were monogamous? Or do I have that wrong? And you say that you asked a fairly personal question "not accusatory" but maybe can't see that asking someone something like that over text, abruptly, and not letting it go when they clearly want to let it go, can seem accusing?
So yeah to me, an anxious person, you crossed a line. Not in an OMG way but in a "Hey this person said they didn't want to discuss a thing, a thing you seem to be kind of sticky on. That should be an okay thing to ask, to not talk about a thing, but it wasn't for you. And then you 'upped the ante' by then talking about how them not wanting to talk about it made you anxious."
And you said you didn't want commentary on your situation so I will not comment except to say that if you know you are, in general, in a situation that is higher-anxiety for you than usual, it's not fair to them complain when you are anxious if it's about those anxiety-provoking things. It's like going to a seafood restaurant when you don't really eat fish and then complaining that the things that are on the menu are not things you like. You seemed to take a context that worked for the two of you in person (talking about past relationships) and shifted it into text where it wasn't the right context and then pushed when it wasn't going well.
So, as an anxious person, I'm sorry this was messy but I think, like others, that it's good for you to ask these questions. The way I manage this with my partner (we've been together a long time, are monogamous, etc) is that if I'm having weird feelings around a thing I'll usually say "Hey can we talk on the phone for a few minutes?" and often that shift of context can help smooth out the wrinkles. But sometimes if I'm just in a panic and he's not free, then I'll need to work out those feelings on my own which isn't always what I WANT (often a symptom of anxiety is constant reassurance-seeking) but good to know how to do.
posted by jessamyn at 10:43 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I guess I am confused about a few things and it may be useful to highlight them here. I am an anxious person and have worked pretty hard to make my anxieties not someone else's problem while at the same time using a lot of "I" language about my own feelings so that I am not just miserable.
So you say you are not in an established relationship with this person but also that you were monogamous? Or do I have that wrong? And you say that you asked a fairly personal question "not accusatory" but maybe can't see that asking someone something like that over text, abruptly, and not letting it go when they clearly want to let it go, can seem accusing?
So yeah to me, an anxious person, you crossed a line. Not in an OMG way but in a "Hey this person said they didn't want to discuss a thing, a thing you seem to be kind of sticky on. That should be an okay thing to ask, to not talk about a thing, but it wasn't for you. And then you 'upped the ante' by then talking about how them not wanting to talk about it made you anxious."
And you said you didn't want commentary on your situation so I will not comment except to say that if you know you are, in general, in a situation that is higher-anxiety for you than usual, it's not fair to them complain when you are anxious if it's about those anxiety-provoking things. It's like going to a seafood restaurant when you don't really eat fish and then complaining that the things that are on the menu are not things you like. You seemed to take a context that worked for the two of you in person (talking about past relationships) and shifted it into text where it wasn't the right context and then pushed when it wasn't going well.
So, as an anxious person, I'm sorry this was messy but I think, like others, that it's good for you to ask these questions. The way I manage this with my partner (we've been together a long time, are monogamous, etc) is that if I'm having weird feelings around a thing I'll usually say "Hey can we talk on the phone for a few minutes?" and often that shift of context can help smooth out the wrinkles. But sometimes if I'm just in a panic and he's not free, then I'll need to work out those feelings on my own which isn't always what I WANT (often a symptom of anxiety is constant reassurance-seeking) but good to know how to do.
posted by jessamyn at 10:43 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Y'know... the way I'm reading this, he talked about all sorts of OTHER relationships, but not the 1) recent one, 2) that he still has some sort of feelings for, and 3) that may very well be the reason he doesn't consider himself ready for a relationship (with someone else) right now.
He's not talking to you about that relationship because whether or not there is any sort of actual relationship remaining, it's still "active" to him mentally. Maybe they broke up, and he's hoping to fix things. Maybe they're still talking. Maybe it was another iffy situation, and he's regretting not acting. Maybe the person just really hurt him and he doesn't feel available because he's still trying to process.
Any which way - this is NOT healthy for you. And while he's welcome to do whatever he needs to process, he shouldn't be taking advantage of your vulnerability and making you feel like a convenient second in the meantime.
Cut it off, kindly... and (provided HE has no other red flags) let him know that if he sorts out his headspace and is actually available at some point and is interested in seeing if you're still available, to feel free to contact you. But don't let him drag you along as a "just in case the other situation doesn't work out" any longer. And... please. Don't stay in regular contact as a "friend" either, because it will be too hard on you emotionally. He'd just keep acting the same, and it wouldn't be good for you.
posted by stormyteal at 11:23 AM on February 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
He's not talking to you about that relationship because whether or not there is any sort of actual relationship remaining, it's still "active" to him mentally. Maybe they broke up, and he's hoping to fix things. Maybe they're still talking. Maybe it was another iffy situation, and he's regretting not acting. Maybe the person just really hurt him and he doesn't feel available because he's still trying to process.
Any which way - this is NOT healthy for you. And while he's welcome to do whatever he needs to process, he shouldn't be taking advantage of your vulnerability and making you feel like a convenient second in the meantime.
Cut it off, kindly... and (provided HE has no other red flags) let him know that if he sorts out his headspace and is actually available at some point and is interested in seeing if you're still available, to feel free to contact you. But don't let him drag you along as a "just in case the other situation doesn't work out" any longer. And... please. Don't stay in regular contact as a "friend" either, because it will be too hard on you emotionally. He'd just keep acting the same, and it wouldn't be good for you.
posted by stormyteal at 11:23 AM on February 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
When you said he didn't talk about dating someone for the last two years my first thought was the pandemic- a lot of people didn't feel comfortable dating then, and if he says he "talked" to someone, maybe it was just virtual and he felt embarrassed about not dating for so long. But that doesn't matter- what matters is that if someone doesn't want to talk about something that isn't critical, you don't push them.
I haven't read this book for a long time, but you might want to check out Attached, about anxious/avoidant/secure attachment patterns, if you haven't already. I think if you had been with the right person--someone secure, who was interested in being in a relationship with you, and hadn't already explicitly told you they didn't want a relationship--they may have been more patient with your anxious questioning, and you may not have felt this anxious in the first place.
posted by pinochiette at 11:26 AM on February 27, 2022
I haven't read this book for a long time, but you might want to check out Attached, about anxious/avoidant/secure attachment patterns, if you haven't already. I think if you had been with the right person--someone secure, who was interested in being in a relationship with you, and hadn't already explicitly told you they didn't want a relationship--they may have been more patient with your anxious questioning, and you may not have felt this anxious in the first place.
posted by pinochiette at 11:26 AM on February 27, 2022
You're a red flag to yourself as you don't have firm boundaries. That's not good for you or him but I thinkyou should focus more in what you are doing to yourself.
I don't think you should be in such casual situations because you clearly want more than this sort of situation can give. If you were casual about him then you wouldn't have probed him about this other person because it wouldn't have bothered you at all.
When someone says "I don't have serious relationships" in whatever way they say it then you need to hear them. Even if they are lying. If they want to be with you they will make it clear. They will not be ambiguous.
Forget him for a second and just think about what pushing against that boundary is doing to you inside. Why would you hurt yourself like that?
You're forcing intimate "relationship" conversations on a bloke who is one night stand material at best, so the situation feels even more ambiguous to you than it needs to be. Anxious person + ambiguous situation = absolute hell for the anxious person.
I think you should aim to only be in situations that honour your attachment style.
As an anxious person, I would personally only have one of two scenarios:
1. Sex-partner, no chit chat, no texting beyond "sex, my balcony, Tuesday at 3pm after Murder She Wrote?", no boyfriend conversations, no moonlight philosophy, nothing. Ever. Don't stay over. Don't cuddle. You're not friends. He is not your boyfriend. He gets no girlfriend benefits (time, conversation, emotional intimacy, having him be flattered by your curiousity about him etc).
2. A proper exclusive relationship
There is no in-between.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:52 PM on February 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
I don't think you should be in such casual situations because you clearly want more than this sort of situation can give. If you were casual about him then you wouldn't have probed him about this other person because it wouldn't have bothered you at all.
When someone says "I don't have serious relationships" in whatever way they say it then you need to hear them. Even if they are lying. If they want to be with you they will make it clear. They will not be ambiguous.
Forget him for a second and just think about what pushing against that boundary is doing to you inside. Why would you hurt yourself like that?
You're forcing intimate "relationship" conversations on a bloke who is one night stand material at best, so the situation feels even more ambiguous to you than it needs to be. Anxious person + ambiguous situation = absolute hell for the anxious person.
I think you should aim to only be in situations that honour your attachment style.
As an anxious person, I would personally only have one of two scenarios:
1. Sex-partner, no chit chat, no texting beyond "sex, my balcony, Tuesday at 3pm after Murder She Wrote?", no boyfriend conversations, no moonlight philosophy, nothing. Ever. Don't stay over. Don't cuddle. You're not friends. He is not your boyfriend. He gets no girlfriend benefits (time, conversation, emotional intimacy, having him be flattered by your curiousity about him etc).
2. A proper exclusive relationship
There is no in-between.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:52 PM on February 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by amanda at 6:16 PM on February 26, 2022 [5 favorites]