What kind of Roman Catholic wedding should I ask for?
February 17, 2022 4:14 PM Subscribe
I am engaged to a wonderful woman. Her family is Roman Catholic. First, I would like to accommodate her family's desire that our marriage be recognized by the Roman Catholic church, but I need help setting certain boundaries based on my own beliefs. Second, I want to know what sorts of promises the priest will require me to make as a condition of going through with this ceremony.
I was raised Catholic, but my religious sympathies are with the broad Jewish tradition. I am not of Jewish descent, have not converted, and have no plans to convert. My partner understands and supports this, and I understand her very different way of relating to her Catholic upbringing.
We are currently going through a marriage preparation class with a priest and several married couples. No worries on that front so far. My partner has had a one-on-one meeting with the priest in which she mentioned I was not a Catholic, but had been baptized. This didn't seem to faze the priest at all.
My partner and the priest both agree that some sort of dispensation will have to be sought from the bishop for us to be married, but which rite is relevant was not discussed in that preliminary meeting. The plan suggested by the priest is for us to get married in a civil ceremony first, after which he will conduct a separate ceremony.
What I would like help understanding is how to ask the priest to respect the boundaries described below in a manner least likely to prevent the ceremony from happening. I am keen to avoid offending my future in-laws or the priest.
I cannot with a good conscience participate in a ceremony that requires me to endorse any Trinitarian formulas. Many readings from the Hebrew Bible could be acceptable to me, even in Roman Catholic translation. Readings from the "New Testament" are not, and neither are creedal statements. I do not want to attend a Mass. I am fine with the ceremony taking place indoors (which I understand priests generally require), but have serious misgivings about it taking place anywhere near an altar or any religious paraphernalia.
To the second set of questions: I will gladly promise that this is the only person I will ever marry, that I will not have other sexual partners, and that I will not begin interfering with her religious practice. I can't promise I will attempt to have children or, if I did have children, make efforts to convince them of the doctrines promulgated by the Vatican. I cannot promise to support Roman Catholic organizations, financially or otherwise, though I am fine with my partner continuing her current level of support for charities from our joint finances. How likely is any of this to be a problem?
I was raised Catholic, but my religious sympathies are with the broad Jewish tradition. I am not of Jewish descent, have not converted, and have no plans to convert. My partner understands and supports this, and I understand her very different way of relating to her Catholic upbringing.
We are currently going through a marriage preparation class with a priest and several married couples. No worries on that front so far. My partner has had a one-on-one meeting with the priest in which she mentioned I was not a Catholic, but had been baptized. This didn't seem to faze the priest at all.
My partner and the priest both agree that some sort of dispensation will have to be sought from the bishop for us to be married, but which rite is relevant was not discussed in that preliminary meeting. The plan suggested by the priest is for us to get married in a civil ceremony first, after which he will conduct a separate ceremony.
What I would like help understanding is how to ask the priest to respect the boundaries described below in a manner least likely to prevent the ceremony from happening. I am keen to avoid offending my future in-laws or the priest.
I cannot with a good conscience participate in a ceremony that requires me to endorse any Trinitarian formulas. Many readings from the Hebrew Bible could be acceptable to me, even in Roman Catholic translation. Readings from the "New Testament" are not, and neither are creedal statements. I do not want to attend a Mass. I am fine with the ceremony taking place indoors (which I understand priests generally require), but have serious misgivings about it taking place anywhere near an altar or any religious paraphernalia.
To the second set of questions: I will gladly promise that this is the only person I will ever marry, that I will not have other sexual partners, and that I will not begin interfering with her religious practice. I can't promise I will attempt to have children or, if I did have children, make efforts to convince them of the doctrines promulgated by the Vatican. I cannot promise to support Roman Catholic organizations, financially or otherwise, though I am fine with my partner continuing her current level of support for charities from our joint finances. How likely is any of this to be a problem?
You are talking about a "convalidation" ceremony. It is generally not a Mass. It does not have to have a a reading from the New Testament (although individual priests may be jerks on this point).
In general, the "indoors" requirement is actually an "in a church" requirement -- with the altar, etc. Back in the day, when my Catholic grandfather and Lutheran grandmother got convalidated, it was either done in the priest's office or in the church vestibule. Since Vatican II, convalidations are typically done in the church to signal that interfaith marriage not a shameful or lesser form of marriage, but one fully recognized and celebrated. Maybe that helps with "not wanting to be near an altar" -- holding convalidations in the church (rather than in the vestibule) is a statement of welcome and belonging towards you, and your lack of belief in Catholic stuff doesn't require you to be banished from the church, but that you are welcome into the "family" and a whole and equal and valuable person, though you do not believe what Catholics believe.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:23 PM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
In general, the "indoors" requirement is actually an "in a church" requirement -- with the altar, etc. Back in the day, when my Catholic grandfather and Lutheran grandmother got convalidated, it was either done in the priest's office or in the church vestibule. Since Vatican II, convalidations are typically done in the church to signal that interfaith marriage not a shameful or lesser form of marriage, but one fully recognized and celebrated. Maybe that helps with "not wanting to be near an altar" -- holding convalidations in the church (rather than in the vestibule) is a statement of welcome and belonging towards you, and your lack of belief in Catholic stuff doesn't require you to be banished from the church, but that you are welcome into the "family" and a whole and equal and valuable person, though you do not believe what Catholics believe.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:23 PM on February 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
if I did have children, make efforts to convince them of the doctrines promulgated by the Vatican
Would you be ok with your partner signing a contract saying that they would raise your children as Catholics (and you signing one saying that you wouldn't interfere)? That's generally required to get the dispensation necessary for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic.
posted by Candleman at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
Would you be ok with your partner signing a contract saying that they would raise your children as Catholics (and you signing one saying that you wouldn't interfere)? That's generally required to get the dispensation necessary for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic.
posted by Candleman at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
and you signing one saying that you wouldn't interfere
I'm not finding anything saying this is necessary - only that the Catholic must promise to raise the children as Catholic.
There is some general information on the website for the Archdiocese of San Antonio. It does say that ceremonies outside or in "nonreligious locations" will not be approved.
It is very unlikely that any of the questions or concerns here will be surprising or offensive to the priest as long as you phrase them in a respectful way, so I would suggest just asking.
posted by FencingGal at 6:15 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not finding anything saying this is necessary - only that the Catholic must promise to raise the children as Catholic.
There is some general information on the website for the Archdiocese of San Antonio. It does say that ceremonies outside or in "nonreligious locations" will not be approved.
It is very unlikely that any of the questions or concerns here will be surprising or offensive to the priest as long as you phrase them in a respectful way, so I would suggest just asking.
posted by FencingGal at 6:15 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think this all depends on your priest/diocese/parish. If you have some flexibility there, you may be more likely to get what you want. When I was getting hitched to a non-Catholic, we met with a priest I knew from the Newman Center at our university. He was delightful and wouldn’t make us do anything we didn’t feel comfortable with, though full disclosure, we ultimately made other arrangements for unrelated reasons. The idea of getting a dispensation from the bishop never came up.
That said, I’m pretty sure that a Catholic wedding has to take place in a Catholic Church. That can mean statues and stained glass or not. The place where I went to Mass at university was super low key and during the summer, they had Mass in a tent. I think if we were committed to not having an altar anywhere nearby, that would have been difficult.
posted by kat518 at 6:29 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
That said, I’m pretty sure that a Catholic wedding has to take place in a Catholic Church. That can mean statues and stained glass or not. The place where I went to Mass at university was super low key and during the summer, they had Mass in a tent. I think if we were committed to not having an altar anywhere nearby, that would have been difficult.
posted by kat518 at 6:29 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
The answer to many of these things is "it depends on the priest" (and on the diocese and how well the priest knows your partner).
From what I've gathered from my mother, the priest who married my parents was content to determine that she knew plenty about Christianity, even if she was clear she didn't actually believe it (my mother grew up non-religious in Britain, and I believe was Anglican on paper), and she was struck out some parts of the service she disagreed with (whether these were technically important parts or just traditional parts, I don't know).
posted by hoyland at 6:39 PM on February 17, 2022
From what I've gathered from my mother, the priest who married my parents was content to determine that she knew plenty about Christianity, even if she was clear she didn't actually believe it (my mother grew up non-religious in Britain, and I believe was Anglican on paper), and she was struck out some parts of the service she disagreed with (whether these were technically important parts or just traditional parts, I don't know).
posted by hoyland at 6:39 PM on February 17, 2022
The priest isn't going to pick your readings, but they may want to pick their own topic for the homily. I think you should be prepared to hear a lot about Jesus and Mary in the run up to the ceremony. Focus on the ceremony and be prepared for someone to slip up and keeping your cool. This is about showing respect for their beliefs, even if they are not your own.
I married my Catholic husband in a Catholic Church ten years ago despite being raised Protestant. We had one meeting with a priest where I briefly described my religious background, including confirmation and baptism and later provided my baptismal certificate. Another priest actually married us as he was a family friend and we did not have a full mass. We had to do three more things before getting married after the initial meeting:
-meet with a couple from the church 2-3 times to talk about making sure our expectations for the marriage were aligned.
-attend 3-4 classes lead by a former priest with other couples who were getting married. There was plenty of biblical history discussed but it was again more focused on us making sure we were compatible.
-We each had to swear an oath (hand raised and repeat after a woman who worked with the church) to honor the other and this was days before the ceremony. His included a promise to respect my non-Catholic faith. We would not have been able to have a mass, as far as I know, since I am not Catholic.
We had been undecided about children and did not get any pressure. I know I would not have promised they'd be raised Catholic. I may have promised to raise any potential children as Christians, though. We picked our own readings (and songs) and one of the people who read at our ceremony recited a prayer I wrote myself - not scripture. No one asked us to keep supporting the Church or other orgs, though we did pay a fee to hold the ceremony, decorate, play music, and possibly to have our names published in the church bulletin.
but have serious misgivings about it taking place anywhere near an altar or any religious paraphernalia.
Altars are used in many religious ceremonies, including Jewish ones. This is going to be your biggest obstacle. If there is no alternative to a church ceremony, there will be religious items everywhere, including at least one crucifix.
posted by soelo at 7:31 PM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
I married my Catholic husband in a Catholic Church ten years ago despite being raised Protestant. We had one meeting with a priest where I briefly described my religious background, including confirmation and baptism and later provided my baptismal certificate. Another priest actually married us as he was a family friend and we did not have a full mass. We had to do three more things before getting married after the initial meeting:
-meet with a couple from the church 2-3 times to talk about making sure our expectations for the marriage were aligned.
-attend 3-4 classes lead by a former priest with other couples who were getting married. There was plenty of biblical history discussed but it was again more focused on us making sure we were compatible.
-We each had to swear an oath (hand raised and repeat after a woman who worked with the church) to honor the other and this was days before the ceremony. His included a promise to respect my non-Catholic faith. We would not have been able to have a mass, as far as I know, since I am not Catholic.
We had been undecided about children and did not get any pressure. I know I would not have promised they'd be raised Catholic. I may have promised to raise any potential children as Christians, though. We picked our own readings (and songs) and one of the people who read at our ceremony recited a prayer I wrote myself - not scripture. No one asked us to keep supporting the Church or other orgs, though we did pay a fee to hold the ceremony, decorate, play music, and possibly to have our names published in the church bulletin.
but have serious misgivings about it taking place anywhere near an altar or any religious paraphernalia.
Altars are used in many religious ceremonies, including Jewish ones. This is going to be your biggest obstacle. If there is no alternative to a church ceremony, there will be religious items everywhere, including at least one crucifix.
posted by soelo at 7:31 PM on February 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
Just find a cool priest. My (actively practicing) Catholic uncle got married in the same ceremony as their first child was baptized (and she was quite pregnant with #2). The priest did have to take some time to look up some stuff to justify it theologically, but it worked out.
posted by nixxon at 7:36 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nixxon at 7:36 PM on February 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
The fact that you were baptized is a Bid Deal to Catholic hierarchy. If it's possible for you to soft-peddle your resistance to the doctrine and expectations you seem to be well aware of it may really smooth your path to a Catholic ceremony. I remember having a meeting with the priest which included the expectation of having children, and we both had to bite our tongues. Silent pause and we moved on. We both agreed to do what we could to make it a ceremony our families would love and glanced over or were silent on more problematic (to us) doctrinal points, while not actually lying. You sound quite conflicted about articulating your own philosophy and making sure the priest understands your point of view. I suspect the response will be very dependent on the priest. I would advise, if having a Catholic ceremony is important to you, that you be very mild and circumspect. If you engage in your right to verbally disagree with Catholic doctrine you may jeopardize having a Catholic ceremony.
In my and my now-husband's opinion it was a ceremony that made our families immensely happy, but our vows were to each other. We did not, and never intended to raise our children Catholic, though one of them chose Catholicism on her own, which is what we wanted all along - that they choose their own religion, or lack thereof. Nobody came after us to check on how we lived our lives.
posted by citygirl at 7:46 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
In my and my now-husband's opinion it was a ceremony that made our families immensely happy, but our vows were to each other. We did not, and never intended to raise our children Catholic, though one of them chose Catholicism on her own, which is what we wanted all along - that they choose their own religion, or lack thereof. Nobody came after us to check on how we lived our lives.
posted by citygirl at 7:46 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
The priest isn't going to pick your readings
As a non Christian marrying a catholic about 15 years ago, this was not my understanding. There is a limited menu of readings even if (like us) you have a non-mass wedding ceremony. It does always involve New Testament readings. I would be very surprised if you are able to get an official in the church wedding that does not. Sorry. The church should be able to provide you with a booklet of the marriage ceremony which will indicate which words you have to speak. I think the expectation will be that you will say Amen to prayers invoking the Trinity but probably don’t need to say them yourself.
Our priest was very understanding but on that front your mileage will definitely vary.
posted by rustcellar at 7:53 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a non Christian marrying a catholic about 15 years ago, this was not my understanding. There is a limited menu of readings even if (like us) you have a non-mass wedding ceremony. It does always involve New Testament readings. I would be very surprised if you are able to get an official in the church wedding that does not. Sorry. The church should be able to provide you with a booklet of the marriage ceremony which will indicate which words you have to speak. I think the expectation will be that you will say Amen to prayers invoking the Trinity but probably don’t need to say them yourself.
Our priest was very understanding but on that front your mileage will definitely vary.
posted by rustcellar at 7:53 PM on February 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nobody came after us to check on how we lived our lives.
I think this is the key point. And if you don’t care for the church as an institution, you may decide for yourself that being less than honest with them is no bad thing in order to go through this process for those who care about it, knowing that that is absolutely something many people who live their whole lives in the church do. But that’s your call.
posted by rustcellar at 7:55 PM on February 17, 2022
I think this is the key point. And if you don’t care for the church as an institution, you may decide for yourself that being less than honest with them is no bad thing in order to go through this process for those who care about it, knowing that that is absolutely something many people who live their whole lives in the church do. But that’s your call.
posted by rustcellar at 7:55 PM on February 17, 2022
The priest isn't going to pick your readings...As a non Christian marrying a catholic about 15 years ago, this was not my understanding...There is a limited menu of readings even if (like us) you have a non-mass wedding ceremony. It does always involve New Testament readings. I would be very surprised if you are able to get an official in the church wedding that does not. Sorry
By readings, I mean ones that people stood up and read for us (an aunt and a sister in our case). I agree if the priest is quoting scripture, they might be picking it.
posted by soelo at 8:19 PM on February 17, 2022
By readings, I mean ones that people stood up and read for us (an aunt and a sister in our case). I agree if the priest is quoting scripture, they might be picking it.
posted by soelo at 8:19 PM on February 17, 2022
Many here have noted that a hip priest could be willing to shrug and look aside about technical details if you will.
But I get the sense that you are fairly serious about doctrine. In that respect, I don't really think that a proper Catholic Wedding is appropriate for you. You might consider other options.
posted by ovvl at 9:25 PM on February 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
But I get the sense that you are fairly serious about doctrine. In that respect, I don't really think that a proper Catholic Wedding is appropriate for you. You might consider other options.
posted by ovvl at 9:25 PM on February 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
The fact that you were baptized is a Bid Deal to Catholic hierarchy. If it's possible for you to soft-peddle your resistance to the doctrine and expectations you seem to be well aware of it may really smooth your path to a Catholic ceremony.
This. I can't go digging into canon law at the moment, but I think Catholic baptism is the requirement, and not to have been excommunicated or voluntarily committed apostasy afterwards. So OP may well actually not require a dispensation.
But, OP, if you take theological matters seriously generally, all the little ways you might grease the wheels should seem repugnant to you. If you actually believe in these things, you can't bullshit them. As much as I think that the Anglican wedding liturgy is lovely (and as much as it would please my mom, who hasn't gotten one church wedding out of her kids), I could never be married in such a ceremony. (I don't think that others treating such matters as formalities are somehow wrong; I just think it's inconsistent with serious theological identifications.)
posted by praemunire at 11:06 PM on February 17, 2022
This. I can't go digging into canon law at the moment, but I think Catholic baptism is the requirement, and not to have been excommunicated or voluntarily committed apostasy afterwards. So OP may well actually not require a dispensation.
But, OP, if you take theological matters seriously generally, all the little ways you might grease the wheels should seem repugnant to you. If you actually believe in these things, you can't bullshit them. As much as I think that the Anglican wedding liturgy is lovely (and as much as it would please my mom, who hasn't gotten one church wedding out of her kids), I could never be married in such a ceremony. (I don't think that others treating such matters as formalities are somehow wrong; I just think it's inconsistent with serious theological identifications.)
posted by praemunire at 11:06 PM on February 17, 2022
I cannot with a good conscience participate in a ceremony that requires me to endorse any Trinitarian formulas….Readings from the "New Testament" are not, and neither are creedal statements.
I honestly don’t think you can do this. You can have a Catholic convalidation and they can go out of their way to help you, you can have one where you need to make no promises or statements of your belief, but saying “also you can’t reference your own religion or my spouses religion at all” is just not going to work. The Trinity is…kind of a big deal? Like, if anyone makes the sign of the cross they will be referencing the Trinity.
I think it might be helpful to dig into why you feel this way? I say this as someone whose spouse also had a somewhat similar reaction to you (he is an atheist), and now kind of is embarrassed by his previous reactions. It was, in his case, about other stuff besides the actual religious objections.
posted by corb at 12:33 AM on February 18, 2022 [11 favorites]
I honestly don’t think you can do this. You can have a Catholic convalidation and they can go out of their way to help you, you can have one where you need to make no promises or statements of your belief, but saying “also you can’t reference your own religion or my spouses religion at all” is just not going to work. The Trinity is…kind of a big deal? Like, if anyone makes the sign of the cross they will be referencing the Trinity.
I think it might be helpful to dig into why you feel this way? I say this as someone whose spouse also had a somewhat similar reaction to you (he is an atheist), and now kind of is embarrassed by his previous reactions. It was, in his case, about other stuff besides the actual religious objections.
posted by corb at 12:33 AM on February 18, 2022 [11 favorites]
A Catholic wedding is going to be religious. You can have one without mass, this is the official text for that ceremony. As you'll see, it's basically please pick from a small menu of options rather than start from a blank page. By careful choice of readings, it is possible to shape the focus of the ceremony a bit. For example, Song of Songs + 1 Corinthians + The Beatitudes does not have difficult or controversial theology and focuses on love in various forms. If you want to step away from the approved text more, then you need a priest who is willing to bend/break the rules for you. I believe it is possible to have two rather than three readings, but the second would be a Gospel (ie New Testament) reading.
The convalidation route, where you have the civil ceremony first, appears to have slightly more flexibility as it's supposed to be a 'simple ceremony' not a second wedding per se. You may be able to drop all but one reading, but I think the wording of the vows themselves is likely to be fixed. They are not trinitarian but the giving and receiving of rings is.
posted by plonkee at 1:44 AM on February 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
The convalidation route, where you have the civil ceremony first, appears to have slightly more flexibility as it's supposed to be a 'simple ceremony' not a second wedding per se. You may be able to drop all but one reading, but I think the wording of the vows themselves is likely to be fixed. They are not trinitarian but the giving and receiving of rings is.
posted by plonkee at 1:44 AM on February 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I honestly don’t think you can do this. You can have a Catholic convalidation and they can go out of their way to help you, you can have one where you need to make no promises or statements of your belief, but saying “also you can’t reference your own religion or my spouses religion at all” is just not going to work.
This. I am trying to figure out what you think could be Catholic about a ceremony that excludes the New Testament - that is absolutely essential to Catholicism. And if you're excluding mention of the trinity (not sure if you mean you just personally don't want to affirm it), that is essential to Catholicism as well. If you got married in the priest's office, which is the least "religious" possibility I can think of, so no altar, there is still going to be a crucifix on the wall and probably other religious art as well. It's likely the priest will try to accommodate you as much as possible, but even a cool priest is still a Catholic priest.
Some of your requests seem to go beyond "I do not want to profess Catholicism" to "I don't want the ceremony to actually be Catholic." So maybe rethink what it means to you to agree to a Catholic ceremony? Maybe you're not really willing to do that.
The priest who will be conducting the ceremony is still your best source for asking about your concerns though. You may be told that something is not possible, but the priest isn't going to punish you for asking questions by refusing to marry you, which is the concern that seems to come through in your question.
posted by FencingGal at 5:59 AM on February 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
This. I am trying to figure out what you think could be Catholic about a ceremony that excludes the New Testament - that is absolutely essential to Catholicism. And if you're excluding mention of the trinity (not sure if you mean you just personally don't want to affirm it), that is essential to Catholicism as well. If you got married in the priest's office, which is the least "religious" possibility I can think of, so no altar, there is still going to be a crucifix on the wall and probably other religious art as well. It's likely the priest will try to accommodate you as much as possible, but even a cool priest is still a Catholic priest.
Some of your requests seem to go beyond "I do not want to profess Catholicism" to "I don't want the ceremony to actually be Catholic." So maybe rethink what it means to you to agree to a Catholic ceremony? Maybe you're not really willing to do that.
The priest who will be conducting the ceremony is still your best source for asking about your concerns though. You may be told that something is not possible, but the priest isn't going to punish you for asking questions by refusing to marry you, which is the concern that seems to come through in your question.
posted by FencingGal at 5:59 AM on February 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
I cannot with a good conscience participate in a ceremony that requires me to endorse any Trinitarian formulas. Many readings from the Hebrew Bible could be acceptable to me, even in Roman Catholic translation. Readings from the "New Testament" are not, and neither are creedal statements.
I don't think you'll be able to do this in the Catholic Church.
When you are a non-Catholic marrying a Catholic (as I was), you basically have 3 options:
1. Convert and have a Sacramental Marriage (there are nuances here and exceptions)
2. Have a non-sacramental but canonically legal marriage (a marriage the Church recognizes as valid and holds your spouse to the same standards as the above.) This is what happens in a convalidation ceremony, the Church is validating the marriage.
3. Have an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church.
The thing is, for #1 and #2, the Church is requiring at the very least your spouse (and to some degree, you) to affirm certain things. Part of that, for them, will be to affirm their faith. So that necessarily will have to be a part of the ceremony.
As someone who's navigated some of these issues, I recommend that you decide where you sit on the importance of rite and ceremony and vows in your life and proceed accordingly. If you want your beliefs to be respected, and your belief is that you CANNOT do the things you listed, then a Catholic ceremony is very likely to be off the table.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:37 AM on February 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't think you'll be able to do this in the Catholic Church.
When you are a non-Catholic marrying a Catholic (as I was), you basically have 3 options:
1. Convert and have a Sacramental Marriage (there are nuances here and exceptions)
2. Have a non-sacramental but canonically legal marriage (a marriage the Church recognizes as valid and holds your spouse to the same standards as the above.) This is what happens in a convalidation ceremony, the Church is validating the marriage.
3. Have an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church.
The thing is, for #1 and #2, the Church is requiring at the very least your spouse (and to some degree, you) to affirm certain things. Part of that, for them, will be to affirm their faith. So that necessarily will have to be a part of the ceremony.
As someone who's navigated some of these issues, I recommend that you decide where you sit on the importance of rite and ceremony and vows in your life and proceed accordingly. If you want your beliefs to be respected, and your belief is that you CANNOT do the things you listed, then a Catholic ceremony is very likely to be off the table.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:37 AM on February 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
And also as the outsider to a Catholic family and having navigated a few things, including the assumption that I was Catholic and getting thrust to the front of a godparent ceremony and asked to affirm my (not present) faith, there are a lot of ways to think about it.
For me, I was fine doing a Catholic wedding because it was my husband's tradition and I wasn't opposed (which sounds different from where you are.) When I said the Catholic responses, mentally I took them as "my husband is inviting his Father/Son/Holy Spirit relationship into his life and therefore our marriage" and so my affirming those things was an affirmation of his faith, not my own. That is splitting hairs but I was comfortable with it. Not sure now that I'm not 24 I would make the same choices but I certainly don't regret the marriage at all.
However, later I explored conversion and after a lot of reflection what I discerned was that I could not convert. Because I had shared that journey with his family, my then-rejection of conversion was taken kind of personally.
And it was, in that I could not take vows to be in communion with the Church. But that was truly where I was and still am. At that point, I do just plain need respect for my beliefs.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:53 AM on February 18, 2022
For me, I was fine doing a Catholic wedding because it was my husband's tradition and I wasn't opposed (which sounds different from where you are.) When I said the Catholic responses, mentally I took them as "my husband is inviting his Father/Son/Holy Spirit relationship into his life and therefore our marriage" and so my affirming those things was an affirmation of his faith, not my own. That is splitting hairs but I was comfortable with it. Not sure now that I'm not 24 I would make the same choices but I certainly don't regret the marriage at all.
However, later I explored conversion and after a lot of reflection what I discerned was that I could not convert. Because I had shared that journey with his family, my then-rejection of conversion was taken kind of personally.
And it was, in that I could not take vows to be in communion with the Church. But that was truly where I was and still am. At that point, I do just plain need respect for my beliefs.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:53 AM on February 18, 2022
There's gonna be, at least, religious paraphernalia about. There will likely be a New Testament reading--the Beatitudes, noted above, are anodyne and agreeable to most but also they are an NT reading, for example. "Endorsement" of trinitarian formulations could mean a few things to you, so it's worth considering how you feel about having trinitarian formulations stated and enacted throughout this thing.
posted by kensington314 at 10:59 AM on February 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 10:59 AM on February 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Minor point but this terminology does get thrown around when talking about options so I think it’s worth clarifying: I think OP’s marriage would in the church’s eyes be sacramental because it is between two baptized persons. The church regards baptism as indelible no matter what. (I am not baptized. I believe that if I were to be baptized in the future, that would have the springing effect of making my non-sacramental marriage to a catholic into a sacramental marriage.)
posted by rustcellar at 12:54 PM on February 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rustcellar at 12:54 PM on February 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Raised Catholic, don’t believe in a lot of it, still consider myself Catholic. Look, you seem like a very ethical person, so I hesitate to suggest this, but have you considered just swearing to things you have no intention of carrying out, because you don’t actually believe in this religion?
I know it’s frustrating not to have the option to have your beliefs validated on a big day, but keep in mind you have no obligation to give the church power over your life. You are doing this as a favour to your wife and her family. Telling convenient half truths to priests has a grand tradition in Catholicism.
Sorry if this is unhelpful. Watching how the Catholic church has dealt with a great many issues large and small over the past decades has led me to this conclusion. Take what you want from it.
posted by Concordia at 1:28 PM on February 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I know it’s frustrating not to have the option to have your beliefs validated on a big day, but keep in mind you have no obligation to give the church power over your life. You are doing this as a favour to your wife and her family. Telling convenient half truths to priests has a grand tradition in Catholicism.
Sorry if this is unhelpful. Watching how the Catholic church has dealt with a great many issues large and small over the past decades has led me to this conclusion. Take what you want from it.
posted by Concordia at 1:28 PM on February 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don’t think this is possible. Priests say what they want - even if you got the coolest priest ever, you can’t guarantee he won’t talk about, you know, Jesus. I also guess that your fiance’s family may not think a ceremony that isn’t in a church and doesn’t include any Catholic liturgy is Catholic. So you’re not really making anyone happy with this plan. Your fiance is going to have to draw some boundaries and disappoint her family. Tough lesson but has to be learned eventually.
What about if you had a non-religous ceremony on a Sunday and attended Mass together that day?
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:23 AM on February 19, 2022
What about if you had a non-religous ceremony on a Sunday and attended Mass together that day?
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:23 AM on February 19, 2022
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posted by small_ruminant at 4:19 PM on February 17, 2022 [10 favorites]