But I'm RIGHT
January 29, 2022 5:05 PM Subscribe
How do I grow out of being self-righteous? This is kind of hard for me to ask - you know, being right all the time about everything and all - so be kind, please.
I've been accused of being self-righteous in the past and it's happened again. I work in a knowledge industry and I strive to be a person of reasonable morals, so Knowing Things is a big part of my personality. I tend to have strong opinions, but I'm not an extrovert so I am less likely to argue and proselytize and more likely to silently judge people and opinions that don't align with mine. I recently read something along the lines of "moral superiority does not default to what you believe" and was like...huh. That sounds like something that I've been told in the past and probably brushed off because, you know, I'm RIGHT.
Have you been able to go from being self-righteous to more openminded and humble? I'm not looking for just actions, because I can ask questions and learn. But how does one unclench the inner need to Know Things, and how do I stop defaulting to thinking that my way and my beliefs are the right ones and those that other people have are wrong?
I've been accused of being self-righteous in the past and it's happened again. I work in a knowledge industry and I strive to be a person of reasonable morals, so Knowing Things is a big part of my personality. I tend to have strong opinions, but I'm not an extrovert so I am less likely to argue and proselytize and more likely to silently judge people and opinions that don't align with mine. I recently read something along the lines of "moral superiority does not default to what you believe" and was like...huh. That sounds like something that I've been told in the past and probably brushed off because, you know, I'm RIGHT.
Have you been able to go from being self-righteous to more openminded and humble? I'm not looking for just actions, because I can ask questions and learn. But how does one unclench the inner need to Know Things, and how do I stop defaulting to thinking that my way and my beliefs are the right ones and those that other people have are wrong?
My thought was that the opposite of being rigidly Right is to be curious. Maybe try to spend time reflecting on recent interactions, noticing when you had this strong reaction and then being curious about what was going for the other person. Why were they saying that - maybe different facts? maybe a different perspective or different life experiences? Can you think how they have been right too? And since the change is not just about optimizing truth about also about relationships, think about what happened next - what was it like for you to go into that rigid "Right" place, how did it feel, what did you do, how did the other person respond? Finally, what do you think might have happened if you responded differently?
As you said "Knowing Things" is really important to you - I'm sure that this is both a strength and a protection (as in "Not Knowing Things" causes bad things to happen which you can avoid by Knowing). You don't want to get rid of that completely - in many ways it is a good thing. You just want to expand your range of responses.
In fact, you need to be really careful as you try to change yourself that you don't beat yourself up for not be perfectly humble. Often people who need to be "Right", feel like the only other option is to be "Wrong". Life is much more complex and subtle than that so you need to give yourself grace as you work on this - that even as you find places you could have done better, you don't bring all that negative judgement on yourself either.
posted by metahawk at 5:37 PM on January 29, 2022 [29 favorites]
As you said "Knowing Things" is really important to you - I'm sure that this is both a strength and a protection (as in "Not Knowing Things" causes bad things to happen which you can avoid by Knowing). You don't want to get rid of that completely - in many ways it is a good thing. You just want to expand your range of responses.
In fact, you need to be really careful as you try to change yourself that you don't beat yourself up for not be perfectly humble. Often people who need to be "Right", feel like the only other option is to be "Wrong". Life is much more complex and subtle than that so you need to give yourself grace as you work on this - that even as you find places you could have done better, you don't bring all that negative judgement on yourself either.
posted by metahawk at 5:37 PM on January 29, 2022 [29 favorites]
Every time you accept someone else's opinion it makes you look good and it makes people like you. Plus, a really good way to get to Know Things is to let other people tell you what they know. I just try to give things a fair trial that way if I do feel the need to spreak up I list out why I think I'm right & not look like an idiot.
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on January 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on January 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
I grew up in an environment of people who were very convinced they knew better and more than others, and for a while it felt like the best way to survive in this world was to respond in kind - the best defense was a good offense. This felt exhausting and uncomfortable, and ultimately kind of self-defeating, because I came to feel that there seemed to be something false in it: everybody knows something that everyone else does not, namely their own experience. I can have my suspicions, and even judgement, about who they are, how they're being in the world, and why, but at root I know I cannot know what it is to be them. I think most people have a need to have other people in their lives, but having good relationships with other people requires knowing about them and their experience, and so other people will always be more of an expert at something than you about something that is essential to your wellbeing, just as you will be an expert in something that is essential to theirs.
I find this really exciting because that same inner drive to know things turned from something driving me to know more than others into something that required learning about others - other people's thoughts and opinions became indispensible. And then it kind of became self-reinforcing - the more I learned from other people, the more I realized how little I knew.
This doesn't mean I need to understand or even respect everybody's positions - and in fact I've even found that it's freed me to realize that certain relationships will require me to deeply engage with viewpoints that drive me up the wall, and therefore I've had to set boundaries I wouldn't have set if I could have just assumed I knew better by default.
I don't know if any of this helps, but it's just to say that this one random MeFite believes that there can be no proper ranking to how knowledgeable we are, because we all have unique knowledge. And maybe that can be kind of liberating.
posted by nightcoast at 5:46 PM on January 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
I find this really exciting because that same inner drive to know things turned from something driving me to know more than others into something that required learning about others - other people's thoughts and opinions became indispensible. And then it kind of became self-reinforcing - the more I learned from other people, the more I realized how little I knew.
This doesn't mean I need to understand or even respect everybody's positions - and in fact I've even found that it's freed me to realize that certain relationships will require me to deeply engage with viewpoints that drive me up the wall, and therefore I've had to set boundaries I wouldn't have set if I could have just assumed I knew better by default.
I don't know if any of this helps, but it's just to say that this one random MeFite believes that there can be no proper ranking to how knowledgeable we are, because we all have unique knowledge. And maybe that can be kind of liberating.
posted by nightcoast at 5:46 PM on January 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
One thing that I found useful for myself was examining all the things I've changed my mind about. Logically speaking it made it hard to reconcile being right before and being right currently about the same exact thing. The moral of the story for me was that mee feeling that something was right or correct is a matter or perspective. That doesn't mean you have to slide into hardcore moral relativism, but it should make it easier to think that the opposite of you being right isn't the other people being wrong.
posted by pyro979 at 5:52 PM on January 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by pyro979 at 5:52 PM on January 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can't tell, in your question, whether you make a distinction between two kinds of right: Is and Ought. Like, the world Is this way, I am factually right to think so; and people Ought to act thusly, it is morally right to do so.
Philosophers vary, but I am more peaceful operating in a frame of "you can't get from Is to Ought". Doesn't matter if you're a deontologist or consequentialist or whatever, beliefs about how Is affects Ought are all rooted in Ought somewhere.
I still have a lot of opinions on both sides, but deciding which is which and reacting appropriately is enough to keep me busy.
posted by clew at 6:06 PM on January 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Philosophers vary, but I am more peaceful operating in a frame of "you can't get from Is to Ought". Doesn't matter if you're a deontologist or consequentialist or whatever, beliefs about how Is affects Ought are all rooted in Ought somewhere.
I still have a lot of opinions on both sides, but deciding which is which and reacting appropriately is enough to keep me busy.
posted by clew at 6:06 PM on January 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
"Often people who need to be "Right", feel like the only other option is to be "Wrong". This is nicely phrased. It's very possible to possess a strong sense of humility, while remaining balanced with information and self possession.
At some point, regardless of how accurate your information or how "right," you are, the emotions of others and worldview, or relativity become a larger factor. It isn't about one person being right, it's about balanced information and hopefully balanced social acts.
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:08 PM on January 29, 2022
At some point, regardless of how accurate your information or how "right," you are, the emotions of others and worldview, or relativity become a larger factor. It isn't about one person being right, it's about balanced information and hopefully balanced social acts.
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:08 PM on January 29, 2022
But how does one unclench the inner need to Know Things, and how do I stop defaulting to thinking that my way and my beliefs are the right ones and those that other people have are wrong?
Your self-righteous certainty is an armour that you wear to protect your vulnerabilities. Work to remove the armour. Become curious about these vulnerable parts of yourself and be compassionate as you unpeel the layers. As you learn about your concepts of moral flaws and ignorance you can come to understand that you were telling yourself a story about 'knowing things'. Become curious about why that is important to you, and what you have missed by holding tightly to it. Begin to consciously construct other stories you could tell yourself where don't need you to be the one who's right. Don't be surprised at this process taking 3 months or more of daily consideration.
Become curious about other people, especially the ones who confidently don't engage in your right/wrong competition.
posted by Thella at 6:17 PM on January 29, 2022 [21 favorites]
Your self-righteous certainty is an armour that you wear to protect your vulnerabilities. Work to remove the armour. Become curious about these vulnerable parts of yourself and be compassionate as you unpeel the layers. As you learn about your concepts of moral flaws and ignorance you can come to understand that you were telling yourself a story about 'knowing things'. Become curious about why that is important to you, and what you have missed by holding tightly to it. Begin to consciously construct other stories you could tell yourself where don't need you to be the one who's right. Don't be surprised at this process taking 3 months or more of daily consideration.
Become curious about other people, especially the ones who confidently don't engage in your right/wrong competition.
posted by Thella at 6:17 PM on January 29, 2022 [21 favorites]
"I tend to have strong opinions, but I'm not an extrovert so I am less likely to argue and proselytize and more likely to silently judge people and opinions that don't align with mine."
By silently letting things pass, you're missing out on opportunities to learn collaboratively with other people.
Can you shift away from thinking that every disagreement is an argument? A disagreement can become an opportunity for you both to learn more, for the two conversants to articulate their thoughts, develop their own ideas further, and possibly come to an agreement—or even if you don't end up agreeing, you can both maybe learn some new things and come to understand each other's perspectives better.
So maybe try opening some conversations when you disagree, not with a goal of winning an argument or proselytizing, but with just exploring with curiosity and good will. "Huh, I learned in [place] that [other fact] is true. How did you find out about [fact]? Can you tell me more about it?"
posted by BrashTech at 6:21 PM on January 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
By silently letting things pass, you're missing out on opportunities to learn collaboratively with other people.
Can you shift away from thinking that every disagreement is an argument? A disagreement can become an opportunity for you both to learn more, for the two conversants to articulate their thoughts, develop their own ideas further, and possibly come to an agreement—or even if you don't end up agreeing, you can both maybe learn some new things and come to understand each other's perspectives better.
So maybe try opening some conversations when you disagree, not with a goal of winning an argument or proselytizing, but with just exploring with curiosity and good will. "Huh, I learned in [place] that [other fact] is true. How did you find out about [fact]? Can you tell me more about it?"
posted by BrashTech at 6:21 PM on January 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ask more questions. Wise people know that the more they know about something, the more questions they have, because they better understand how much they don’t know. Every time you ask a question, take a moment to reflect on what you learned you don’t know from the answer.
And once in a while go ahead and indulge in the self righteousness, preferably about mundane things like “I told you putting the toilet paper flap side down keeps the pets from destroying it!!” And not things like politics or religion. Like, I super duper get it. We gotta feel that vindication sometimes. It’s just, being humble about the complexity of human experience and the natural world is also an important part of life.
posted by Mizu at 6:30 PM on January 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
And once in a while go ahead and indulge in the self righteousness, preferably about mundane things like “I told you putting the toilet paper flap side down keeps the pets from destroying it!!” And not things like politics or religion. Like, I super duper get it. We gotta feel that vindication sometimes. It’s just, being humble about the complexity of human experience and the natural world is also an important part of life.
posted by Mizu at 6:30 PM on January 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's a difference between being right, and being self-righteous.
But I have a feeling that you got into a situation where your advice, while "right", was not welcomed.
There are also many situations where there are a number of undisclosed factors that also figured into the existing situation and/or decisions that you are not privy to.
It's easy to dismiss the other side as simply "they're wrong" (which is an implied "I'm right"). But you don't learn from that. You simply made a judgment call... based on what you have learned, which is probably NOT everything.
Even here, I sometimes offer advice on things I know little about. :D But then, I don't know everything, and I acknowledge that, and I read all the other answers to see if there's some new perspective or source I haven't considered.
You may still be right, they may still be wrong, but you would have gained a better understanding.
posted by kschang at 6:35 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I have a feeling that you got into a situation where your advice, while "right", was not welcomed.
There are also many situations where there are a number of undisclosed factors that also figured into the existing situation and/or decisions that you are not privy to.
It's easy to dismiss the other side as simply "they're wrong" (which is an implied "I'm right"). But you don't learn from that. You simply made a judgment call... based on what you have learned, which is probably NOT everything.
Even here, I sometimes offer advice on things I know little about. :D But then, I don't know everything, and I acknowledge that, and I read all the other answers to see if there's some new perspective or source I haven't considered.
You may still be right, they may still be wrong, but you would have gained a better understanding.
posted by kschang at 6:35 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
You could tell a few select people who you are close to, either personally or at work, about this issue. Most importantly, ask them to point out (in private, of course) when you are being self-righteous. You have to give them permission and promise to be appreciative, not angry or hurt. The experience might be hard on your ego, but I guarantee they will respect you for it.
posted by conrad53 at 6:56 PM on January 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by conrad53 at 6:56 PM on January 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I said to someone earlier today that neither of us wins when we have an argument. To have a healthy interpersonal relationship, it would be great to think of ourselves as a team working on a joint project. If we can be curious and compassionate when a conflict arises, then we can co to he working on the project. We both lose when we argue unkindly. There’s not always a “right.”
posted by bluedaisy at 6:58 PM on January 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 6:58 PM on January 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have been where you are. Still am to some extent. But I've been blessed, or maybe cursed, by an elevated sense of empathy, and this is how I think I've been able to avoid anyone calling me self-righteous (at least not that I'm aware of, and I'm pretty sure I would be aware, because I'm usually right...)
But really, I think that's what it comes down to...cultivating empathy. And it can be cultivated. When you hear something, put yourself into the speaker's shoes, see things through their eyes, where they may have come upon this opinion or alternative facts. In other words, think before judging. They might still be wrong, but that doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
posted by lhauser at 7:01 PM on January 29, 2022
But really, I think that's what it comes down to...cultivating empathy. And it can be cultivated. When you hear something, put yourself into the speaker's shoes, see things through their eyes, where they may have come upon this opinion or alternative facts. In other words, think before judging. They might still be wrong, but that doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
posted by lhauser at 7:01 PM on January 29, 2022
This is something I could have written in college or in my 20s, right down to the humble-braggy "but I'm right all the time! #jokingnotjoking" tone. So I might be projecting stuff from younger me on to you and be wildly off base.
But . . . do you want to change? Your write up sure makes it sound like you have a lot invested in having a smartest one in the room persona. Going to be hard to hold on to that and truly be open to other ideas all the time. If you're self-image is tied up in being right, you're probably missing a lot of opportunities to become right.
If you do want to change then I'm completely behind everyone telling you to listen more. Practice the attitude that that every situation where you haven't learned something is a failure of yours.
posted by mark k at 7:51 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
But . . . do you want to change? Your write up sure makes it sound like you have a lot invested in having a smartest one in the room persona. Going to be hard to hold on to that and truly be open to other ideas all the time. If you're self-image is tied up in being right, you're probably missing a lot of opportunities to become right.
If you do want to change then I'm completely behind everyone telling you to listen more. Practice the attitude that that every situation where you haven't learned something is a failure of yours.
posted by mark k at 7:51 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
how do I stop defaulting to thinking that my way and my beliefs are the right ones and those that other people have are wrong?
Send me your opinions via MeMail. I'll tell you which ones are wrong.
Seriously, though, there are horrendous amounts of boneheaded wrongness out and about in the world, and if the worst effect you ever suffer from that is having somebody who is wrong express irritation that you've noticed, you're doing pretty well.
There's nothing unsound about defaulting to thinking that your way and your beliefs are the right ones, as long as you've been reasonably conscientious about making genuinely honest attempts to disconfirm the things you believe most strongly. Worth bearing in mind, though, that there is strength in diversity, and we are all ultimately swimming in the same fishpond, so just because what somebody else appears to believe appears to be incompatible with something that you do, it ain't necessarily so.
As for unclenching: I recommend pursuing a rigorous program of internal belief examination. Next time you find yourself experiencing an internal need to defend a belief against an onslaught of obvious wrongness, that's your opportunity to look for more sympathetic readings of that wrongness, and a wider interpretation of your own rightness, to see if you can improve their compatibility.
Failing that, you could try doing what I did: have an actual psychotic break, then recover from it, the process of which involved spending years and years mulling over the question of how I could possibly have had so much ironclad certainty about so many things that were all complete crap.
I currently count myself certain of the truth of exactly one proposition: that something's going on. I have yet to experience any state of consciousness in which this proposition was not, having subsequently reflected on it in any state of consciousness capable of formulating it in the first place, true. Everything more specific than that is a matter of interpretations and distinctions made for convenience reasons and degrees of confidence, many of which are quite fluid and variable. It's a scary way to live at first but quite pleasant once it becomes habitual.
posted by flabdablet at 9:25 PM on January 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Send me your opinions via MeMail. I'll tell you which ones are wrong.
Seriously, though, there are horrendous amounts of boneheaded wrongness out and about in the world, and if the worst effect you ever suffer from that is having somebody who is wrong express irritation that you've noticed, you're doing pretty well.
There's nothing unsound about defaulting to thinking that your way and your beliefs are the right ones, as long as you've been reasonably conscientious about making genuinely honest attempts to disconfirm the things you believe most strongly. Worth bearing in mind, though, that there is strength in diversity, and we are all ultimately swimming in the same fishpond, so just because what somebody else appears to believe appears to be incompatible with something that you do, it ain't necessarily so.
As for unclenching: I recommend pursuing a rigorous program of internal belief examination. Next time you find yourself experiencing an internal need to defend a belief against an onslaught of obvious wrongness, that's your opportunity to look for more sympathetic readings of that wrongness, and a wider interpretation of your own rightness, to see if you can improve their compatibility.
Failing that, you could try doing what I did: have an actual psychotic break, then recover from it, the process of which involved spending years and years mulling over the question of how I could possibly have had so much ironclad certainty about so many things that were all complete crap.
I currently count myself certain of the truth of exactly one proposition: that something's going on. I have yet to experience any state of consciousness in which this proposition was not, having subsequently reflected on it in any state of consciousness capable of formulating it in the first place, true. Everything more specific than that is a matter of interpretations and distinctions made for convenience reasons and degrees of confidence, many of which are quite fluid and variable. It's a scary way to live at first but quite pleasant once it becomes habitual.
posted by flabdablet at 9:25 PM on January 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Good on you for taking this step. I come from a super-judgy family, so this is something I have thought about/still think about a lot. In many contexts I’ve found myself in, being “right” is very often rooted in the assumption that being correct was both due to and constitutive of individual superiority.
“I am correct *because* I am smarter and more moral etc. than these other people - to have thought about things in a way that led to the correct opinion/answer, I must have been better than them to begin with. Furthermore, being correct both affirms my superiority and paves a path to my getting even more smart, moral, etc.”
If you haven’t already, it might be worth investigating explicit or latent feelings of superiority. One of the best ways that I know of to counter feelings of superiority and separateness is to dream about the beautiful and impossibly rich life being lived by everyone you meet or see. Someone is bringing a bouquet of flowers as they walk down the sidewalk. Are they for a lover? A mourning friend? A sibling in the hospital? Themselves?
What does the check-out clerk do on the weekend? Maybe they’re deep in the house-dance scene, or taking care of grandkids, or getting into a stained-glass class. Remembering that your own profound joys and sorrows and frustrations and successes are as unknowable to others as theirs are to you, treat people you meet with as much kindness as you can - acts of courtesy and smiles exchanged with strangers can give you the live-wire shock of recognition where you DO know each other, in a warm and caring way, for the tiniest instant.
Watching documentaries can be profound for this - in addition to getting some edited perspective of the lives of the people being documented, there are universes of their public and private lives that are completely untouched by the film - joys and sorrows and rages and wisdoms. What are their hidden depths? (Some documentaries are better for this. Three that are coming to mind are Paris Is Burning, Encounters At The End Of The World, and A State Of Mind.)
The suggestions above about practicing curiosity in conversation are great! These suggestions I’m offering I also think of as being practices of curiosity and care.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
“I am correct *because* I am smarter and more moral etc. than these other people - to have thought about things in a way that led to the correct opinion/answer, I must have been better than them to begin with. Furthermore, being correct both affirms my superiority and paves a path to my getting even more smart, moral, etc.”
If you haven’t already, it might be worth investigating explicit or latent feelings of superiority. One of the best ways that I know of to counter feelings of superiority and separateness is to dream about the beautiful and impossibly rich life being lived by everyone you meet or see. Someone is bringing a bouquet of flowers as they walk down the sidewalk. Are they for a lover? A mourning friend? A sibling in the hospital? Themselves?
What does the check-out clerk do on the weekend? Maybe they’re deep in the house-dance scene, or taking care of grandkids, or getting into a stained-glass class. Remembering that your own profound joys and sorrows and frustrations and successes are as unknowable to others as theirs are to you, treat people you meet with as much kindness as you can - acts of courtesy and smiles exchanged with strangers can give you the live-wire shock of recognition where you DO know each other, in a warm and caring way, for the tiniest instant.
Watching documentaries can be profound for this - in addition to getting some edited perspective of the lives of the people being documented, there are universes of their public and private lives that are completely untouched by the film - joys and sorrows and rages and wisdoms. What are their hidden depths? (Some documentaries are better for this. Three that are coming to mind are Paris Is Burning, Encounters At The End Of The World, and A State Of Mind.)
The suggestions above about practicing curiosity in conversation are great! These suggestions I’m offering I also think of as being practices of curiosity and care.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is a pretty different angle and is likely to be inapplicable to you, but I used to take adhd medication that had the side effect that it was really important to me that I was right and win arguments and it made me unpleasantly strident about all kinds of inconsequential things. I discontinued it and I was a lot more fun to be around.
posted by aubilenon at 10:24 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 10:24 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Really, just noticing how much energy it costs to have to be right all the time can help. I mean, sure, there's definitely an attractive benefit to being right, namely the feelings of superiority and righteousness. But there's a cost too. It's a defensive posture which leaves you having to constantly defend yourself from all the dimwits who just don't get it!
I absolutely love the last paragraph of flabdablet's answer. Ultimately, life seems to be a slow process of learning and then unlearning. It's a common experience as we get older to realize that we thought we knew everything when we were teenagers and/or young adults but we really didn't. I don't know if that process ever stops. Sure, there are discreet topics we may be much more knowledgeable than others about. Maybe there are many. But ultimately, really, ain't nobody really know a damn thing innit? And ain't nobody ever did.
You might find letting others be right sometimes gives you more space and makes life feel a little more free and open and playful. You can even just play with the idea of letting others be right. Like, even if you secretly know you are totally right during an argument or conversation with someone, just try on the perspective of letting them be right, giving them the benefit of the doubt, trying to understand the possible reasons behind why they think they are right. Or, you know, drop the entire idea about either of you being right and just see the conversation as an exchange of ideas, recognizing that you have an emotional attachment or clinginess to your ideas and they have an emotional attachment or clinginess to theirs. And just see how it feels. And go from there.
posted by WhenInGnome at 11:49 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I absolutely love the last paragraph of flabdablet's answer. Ultimately, life seems to be a slow process of learning and then unlearning. It's a common experience as we get older to realize that we thought we knew everything when we were teenagers and/or young adults but we really didn't. I don't know if that process ever stops. Sure, there are discreet topics we may be much more knowledgeable than others about. Maybe there are many. But ultimately, really, ain't nobody really know a damn thing innit? And ain't nobody ever did.
You might find letting others be right sometimes gives you more space and makes life feel a little more free and open and playful. You can even just play with the idea of letting others be right. Like, even if you secretly know you are totally right during an argument or conversation with someone, just try on the perspective of letting them be right, giving them the benefit of the doubt, trying to understand the possible reasons behind why they think they are right. Or, you know, drop the entire idea about either of you being right and just see the conversation as an exchange of ideas, recognizing that you have an emotional attachment or clinginess to your ideas and they have an emotional attachment or clinginess to theirs. And just see how it feels. And go from there.
posted by WhenInGnome at 11:49 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Realizing that much of the conviction of being right is due to ignorance. By definition, we don’t know what we don’t know and often not even the extent of our ignorance. The data is biased, sometimes we don’t find out we were wrong until years later, or we never find out. Especially the latter means that we can’t even know how often it happens.
The less we know, the less nuanced our opinion is, we know less about which factors we’re not considering, let alone how they would influence the opinion, because we don’t know them.
The things I cringe most about in hindsight are those when I was convinced I knew and I knew better, and much later found out I was not right. Just realizing that feeling right does not imply actually being right and focusing on finding out and learning may reduce the opportunities I give my future self to cringe about current me.
posted by meijusa at 2:18 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
The less we know, the less nuanced our opinion is, we know less about which factors we’re not considering, let alone how they would influence the opinion, because we don’t know them.
The things I cringe most about in hindsight are those when I was convinced I knew and I knew better, and much later found out I was not right. Just realizing that feeling right does not imply actually being right and focusing on finding out and learning may reduce the opportunities I give my future self to cringe about current me.
posted by meijusa at 2:18 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Logic is logic, and will reliably output reasoned decisions from input information.
It is utterly dependent on having all relevant inputs, and those who use reason must know what inputs to have and to seek.
Knowing what all the relevant inputs are is where you're probably not going to succeed.
This is why juries of one's peers are important -- it's impossible (even now, even with technology) to encode all those inputs. This is why experience is important in judging -- many of the most important inputs have to do with weighing how one situation feels emotionally and how those feelings affect (exponentially, sometimes) developments over time.
Feelings aren't all of it -- think of any scientific development that didn't work out as expected, and you'll find very intelligent people who genuinely wanted to do the right thing, but neglected to ask one or more important questions -- sometimes it's something scientific, sometimes it's knowing what factors -- and their magnitudes -- are persuading the other person away from your truth.
posted by amtho at 3:18 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
It is utterly dependent on having all relevant inputs, and those who use reason must know what inputs to have and to seek.
Knowing what all the relevant inputs are is where you're probably not going to succeed.
This is why juries of one's peers are important -- it's impossible (even now, even with technology) to encode all those inputs. This is why experience is important in judging -- many of the most important inputs have to do with weighing how one situation feels emotionally and how those feelings affect (exponentially, sometimes) developments over time.
Feelings aren't all of it -- think of any scientific development that didn't work out as expected, and you'll find very intelligent people who genuinely wanted to do the right thing, but neglected to ask one or more important questions -- sometimes it's something scientific, sometimes it's knowing what factors -- and their magnitudes -- are persuading the other person away from your truth.
posted by amtho at 3:18 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
feeling right does not imply actually being right
and this observation scales. Even feeling convinced to the core of your soul that something or other is the case is not, in and of itself, any kind of guarantee that it actually is. Certainty is unreliable because it fails to take into account the extent to which the brain that's performing it is. The closer to certain I am of anything, the better advised I would be to subject it to a genuinely determined quest for counterexamples, preferably involving talking it over with other people.
This is the main lesson I took away from psychosis, and if I can persuade you that it's a good lesson without you needing to go mad and worry the hell out of everybody who loves you first, I'll be well pleased.
The second most important lesson I took away from psychosis is that the primary purpose of language is communication across minds, and not so much the organization of thought forms within them.
It's easy to fall into developing one's own private internal jargon, habitually using words (especially words with relatively abstract referents) in quite idiosyncratic ways. The resulting conceptual structures can feel transparently clear, but in fact are quite often houses of cards that a small change of direction can render quite opaque and a light puff of external thought can rapidly demolish. Beware the tyranny of words.
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [11 favorites]
and this observation scales. Even feeling convinced to the core of your soul that something or other is the case is not, in and of itself, any kind of guarantee that it actually is. Certainty is unreliable because it fails to take into account the extent to which the brain that's performing it is. The closer to certain I am of anything, the better advised I would be to subject it to a genuinely determined quest for counterexamples, preferably involving talking it over with other people.
This is the main lesson I took away from psychosis, and if I can persuade you that it's a good lesson without you needing to go mad and worry the hell out of everybody who loves you first, I'll be well pleased.
The second most important lesson I took away from psychosis is that the primary purpose of language is communication across minds, and not so much the organization of thought forms within them.
It's easy to fall into developing one's own private internal jargon, habitually using words (especially words with relatively abstract referents) in quite idiosyncratic ways. The resulting conceptual structures can feel transparently clear, but in fact are quite often houses of cards that a small change of direction can render quite opaque and a light puff of external thought can rapidly demolish. Beware the tyranny of words.
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [11 favorites]
I went from being a debater (in high school) to judging debate (now). Lincoln Douglas debate, in particular, is an interesting one to watch as an observer. If you would like more information on how to judge this, please memail me.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 5:13 AM on January 30, 2022
posted by Ms Vegetable at 5:13 AM on January 30, 2022
I've struggled with this too. Here are some things that have helped me:
posted by iamkimiam at 6:27 AM on January 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
- Hold thoughts lightly. Thoughts are just sentences in our heads and they are all optional. Holding these thoughts more lightly makes it easier to assess them, share them, play with them, and ultimately, change them. Start by practicing with easy thoughts. Pick something you like, such as a colour or food. Play around with the idea. What if in the future, it was no longer true? What if it's not true for you now? Or for the next minute? How might that be possible? Once you've mastered that, move onto tougher, more tightly held thoughts and see if you can loosen the grip.
- Recognise that right/wrong is a form of scarcity thinking. What if there were no right or wrong? What if lots of things could be true, for all of us, at the same time? That's abundance thinking. The more we practice seeing things from others' points of views, we increase our capacity for connection and empathy. This allows us to be more naturally humble, open-minded and accepting.
- Understand that judgement and criticsm are simply wishes wearing defences. That is, we are hard on others (or ourselves) when we're wanting things to be different. But for whatever reasons, we're scared of being that vulnerable, so we cloak the wish in judgement or criticism as a way to protect ourselves from the fear and awkwardness of honestly expressing our needs.
- Find the unmet need. When I started getting my personal needs for validation, affection, and recognition met, it was a lot easier to be present in conversations and just let people think whatever they thought. I wasn't seeking something from the conversation; its purpose wasn't to confirm my beliefs or provide proof of something. My beliefs were already validated elsewhere. With my ego out of the way and my needs met, I could show up to conversations with quieter confidence. What need is trying to be met for you by 'being right'?
- You get to know way more things through listening to others. When we're only listening to the thoughts in our heads, we mostly reinforce what we already know. There's little learning going on. We're practicing judgement and we're not being fully present. When we let those sentences in our heads fade away and focus on what's happening in front of our face (rather than behind it), we allow new thoughts in. We learn things about others. We become better Knowers of Things.
- Become the quiet curator of your best knowledge. Sure, I know things. But I also know that not everyone needs to hear them. Or especially all of them at once; a vomit buffet for all to judge. I like to play this game in my head. It goes, “What's the one thing I know that could help this person the most right now?” As I listen to them go on, that one thing usually changes. It gets swapped out for something better. They keep going. That first thing definitely wasn't it. Now I realise that the challenge here actually wasn't at all what I thought it was. I keep listening. I'm starting to think a new thing could be way more useful to them. But only if they're open to hearing it. I ask them if I can share something. This totally piques their curiosity. I try to reformulate what I'm wanting to tell them as a non-leading question instead. It's not perfect, but in their reply, it allows them to discover something. They think I've shared something insightful. I haven't. We did.*
posted by iamkimiam at 6:27 AM on January 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
I made this change by deciding I no longer wanted my identity tied up in knowing things. Once I didn't have ego invested, it was easy to be open to other views.
Along those lines, I am very aligned with the idea of subjective vs objective truth, and most things we think we are right about are subjective. I went from "I'm right (because I need to be)" to "There's billions of versions of right on this planet and who am I to say my version is better?"
I believe what helped with this adjustment was finally becoming a fish in a bigger pond so perhaps that can be part of your strategy. Expose yourself to people who do know more -- world class individuals. Maybe you can't do that in person or maybe you can, depending on your location and knowledge base. I realized as much as I know, someone always knows more, and rather than constantly deal with a bruised ego or needing to cling to my position on some hierarchy, I just let go of this part of my identity because I didn't want to invest my energy that way. (To be clear, there are probably still many scenarios where I'm the smartest person in the room or whatever but I no longer care. I don't relate that way anymore either. It's frankly a very distancing way of relating to position yourself as more knowledgeable or right or whatever. There is more value in connection for me than there is being the winner.)
posted by crunchy potato at 6:41 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Along those lines, I am very aligned with the idea of subjective vs objective truth, and most things we think we are right about are subjective. I went from "I'm right (because I need to be)" to "There's billions of versions of right on this planet and who am I to say my version is better?"
I believe what helped with this adjustment was finally becoming a fish in a bigger pond so perhaps that can be part of your strategy. Expose yourself to people who do know more -- world class individuals. Maybe you can't do that in person or maybe you can, depending on your location and knowledge base. I realized as much as I know, someone always knows more, and rather than constantly deal with a bruised ego or needing to cling to my position on some hierarchy, I just let go of this part of my identity because I didn't want to invest my energy that way. (To be clear, there are probably still many scenarios where I'm the smartest person in the room or whatever but I no longer care. I don't relate that way anymore either. It's frankly a very distancing way of relating to position yourself as more knowledgeable or right or whatever. There is more value in connection for me than there is being the winner.)
posted by crunchy potato at 6:41 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
.I work in a knowledge industry and I strive to be a person of reasonable morals, so Knowing Things is a big part of my personality.
This moral imperative to Know because knowledge is important: there's a flip side. In knowledge-intensive work, humility is a virtue, and certainty creates blindness that can do great harm.
Dunno about yours, but my knowledge industry is a Jenga pile of uninspected metrics. Thinking "do I actually know this?" Is productive. Knowledge industry is mostly ignorance industry, and we'd do well to remember it. Seeing knowledge as a dispute for which party is right leaves out the very common case: no one is right, no one knows, we don't know.
This can be a profoundly uncomfortable feeling, if you're used to displacing it with a feeling of certainty. It gets easier, slowly. You're not on an easy journey here, so try not to judge yourself, pick yourself up and try again.
posted by away for regrooving at 6:48 AM on January 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
This moral imperative to Know because knowledge is important: there's a flip side. In knowledge-intensive work, humility is a virtue, and certainty creates blindness that can do great harm.
Dunno about yours, but my knowledge industry is a Jenga pile of uninspected metrics. Thinking "do I actually know this?" Is productive. Knowledge industry is mostly ignorance industry, and we'd do well to remember it. Seeing knowledge as a dispute for which party is right leaves out the very common case: no one is right, no one knows, we don't know.
This can be a profoundly uncomfortable feeling, if you're used to displacing it with a feeling of certainty. It gets easier, slowly. You're not on an easy journey here, so try not to judge yourself, pick yourself up and try again.
posted by away for regrooving at 6:48 AM on January 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
I was very judgmental and a very close relative helped me understand that probably it was because I was feeling inferior and trying to make myself feel better. There is a leap from thinking you’re right, and suspecting others are wrong- to then judging. Now instead of judging (I try) to just be happy that I make different choices or so different things or think differently and let it go because we’re all on our own journey.
posted by pairofshades at 9:06 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pairofshades at 9:06 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
The desire to be right is a response to an ego threat. Basically when this happens you are feeling like someone is pulling rank on you as an expert and relegating you to the role of the naive or ignorant one. Chances are you are responding to feeling threatened.
The first thing to do is to get familiar with the feeling and learn to recognize it when it is starting to blossom.
If you are wrong about something you really need to know so that you can move from ignorant to expert again, so it is critically important NOT to defend your ego from those snot nosed ignorant whippersnappers and to instead figure out what they know that you don't. Everybody knows stuff that you don't although most of them only know what they had for breakfast, stuff you don't need to know. But at the same time that feeling of threat and the urge to double down is your opportunity to figure out if they know something that you don't and potentially to learn more about a subject in which you enjoy being an expert. Failure to learn more means you will soon lose that expert status.
So as soon as you get that feeling you need to prepare yourself to concede the point and pick their brains. This may feel impossible, like you are being asked to roll over a die and let them treat you badly. So you need to re-frame your response from being attacked to being a position of confidence seeking more knowledge. The best way to do that is to think of the information as a single piece of trivia in the field in which you are an expert. Take the role of a delighted professor, encouraging their student to share new information. "So interesting the new information your research has uncovered!" You're the expert, they are the upstart, you can afford to be magnanimous when they introduce a new fact to you. After all, your field of expertise is not set in stone and new information and new perspectives are being introduced all the time. And after all you are enough of an expert you don't have to feel bad about not knowing this one measly little fact.
The degree to which you reveal that you are patronizing them must be delicately calculated. It is extremely important not to be offensive yourself as you lose the moral high ground and are likely to get into an escalating spiral of threat and counter threat. Chances are your ego was triggered because in fact this person is a hostile twerp and you realised that they were trying to one up you. So when you were hopefully aiming for was a respectful give and take and mutual sharing of information they were actually looking for an opening and have pounced on something small ranging from regional difference in grammar to slightly out of date information and they are deliberately using it offensively. You can keep it on the footing of a reasonable give and take of information by overlooking their fragile ego that is making them hostile and offensive.
Return to the basics of the argument: Proof and documentation. Remember they are nothing but a twerp trying to get a rise out of you, and desperately over compensating for their own fragile ego. Be as kind as possible to them. Compliment them. "That's very interesting. Where did you find that out?" etc.
When the exchange is over reiterate to yourself that you don't know everything and it is okay to not know everything. That only people who are not still clever learners like you refuse to accept new information. People who are not learning and who are not experimenting are the ones who never make mistakes. Mistakes are good because they show you are moving out of your comfort zone and beyond the limited area you are proficient in.
Use the person who made you uncomfortable. Suck them dry. And if, by chance they can't document or provide sources for the information, go and look up the information yourself to prove they are right (NOT that they are wrong!) and a useful source of information for you to use to trigger new research goals.
What a pity their social skills are so bad they don't know how to have an exchange of information without being offensive - but like taking that nasty freeway to get to work, it is often very worth making use of sub-optimal resources.
Once you get good at not over reacting to an ego threat you can dial back the ego to start considering if in fact this person is not a twerp nor a whippersnapper and that you were totally over reacting. At that point you will totally grateful if you realised that you did not double down or visible patronize them. You could end up suicidally embarassed if one day you realise you spent weeks lecturing a five-time Olympic gold medalists because you briefly participated in their sport during Junior High and though you knew more about it. Humility is the best protection for the ego. You are frequently wrong and it is okay. You are dumb and it is okay.
Fake humility until you actually achieve it. You are not just okay when you are wrong, but you are still wonderful. Wen you allow your ego to let you do stupid things that hurt you, you are the one getting hurt. The consequences of claiming the moral high ground and then being wrong are so devastating to the ego, that the best way to avoid the ego death that results is to never ever claim the moral high ground, or the expert status. If you need to prove it, you know it's not true or it's not important, it's a pissing contest and you are being bloody minded over trivia or prestige. Don't do that to yourself.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:24 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
The first thing to do is to get familiar with the feeling and learn to recognize it when it is starting to blossom.
If you are wrong about something you really need to know so that you can move from ignorant to expert again, so it is critically important NOT to defend your ego from those snot nosed ignorant whippersnappers and to instead figure out what they know that you don't. Everybody knows stuff that you don't although most of them only know what they had for breakfast, stuff you don't need to know. But at the same time that feeling of threat and the urge to double down is your opportunity to figure out if they know something that you don't and potentially to learn more about a subject in which you enjoy being an expert. Failure to learn more means you will soon lose that expert status.
So as soon as you get that feeling you need to prepare yourself to concede the point and pick their brains. This may feel impossible, like you are being asked to roll over a die and let them treat you badly. So you need to re-frame your response from being attacked to being a position of confidence seeking more knowledge. The best way to do that is to think of the information as a single piece of trivia in the field in which you are an expert. Take the role of a delighted professor, encouraging their student to share new information. "So interesting the new information your research has uncovered!" You're the expert, they are the upstart, you can afford to be magnanimous when they introduce a new fact to you. After all, your field of expertise is not set in stone and new information and new perspectives are being introduced all the time. And after all you are enough of an expert you don't have to feel bad about not knowing this one measly little fact.
The degree to which you reveal that you are patronizing them must be delicately calculated. It is extremely important not to be offensive yourself as you lose the moral high ground and are likely to get into an escalating spiral of threat and counter threat. Chances are your ego was triggered because in fact this person is a hostile twerp and you realised that they were trying to one up you. So when you were hopefully aiming for was a respectful give and take and mutual sharing of information they were actually looking for an opening and have pounced on something small ranging from regional difference in grammar to slightly out of date information and they are deliberately using it offensively. You can keep it on the footing of a reasonable give and take of information by overlooking their fragile ego that is making them hostile and offensive.
Return to the basics of the argument: Proof and documentation. Remember they are nothing but a twerp trying to get a rise out of you, and desperately over compensating for their own fragile ego. Be as kind as possible to them. Compliment them. "That's very interesting. Where did you find that out?" etc.
When the exchange is over reiterate to yourself that you don't know everything and it is okay to not know everything. That only people who are not still clever learners like you refuse to accept new information. People who are not learning and who are not experimenting are the ones who never make mistakes. Mistakes are good because they show you are moving out of your comfort zone and beyond the limited area you are proficient in.
Use the person who made you uncomfortable. Suck them dry. And if, by chance they can't document or provide sources for the information, go and look up the information yourself to prove they are right (NOT that they are wrong!) and a useful source of information for you to use to trigger new research goals.
What a pity their social skills are so bad they don't know how to have an exchange of information without being offensive - but like taking that nasty freeway to get to work, it is often very worth making use of sub-optimal resources.
Once you get good at not over reacting to an ego threat you can dial back the ego to start considering if in fact this person is not a twerp nor a whippersnapper and that you were totally over reacting. At that point you will totally grateful if you realised that you did not double down or visible patronize them. You could end up suicidally embarassed if one day you realise you spent weeks lecturing a five-time Olympic gold medalists because you briefly participated in their sport during Junior High and though you knew more about it. Humility is the best protection for the ego. You are frequently wrong and it is okay. You are dumb and it is okay.
Fake humility until you actually achieve it. You are not just okay when you are wrong, but you are still wonderful. Wen you allow your ego to let you do stupid things that hurt you, you are the one getting hurt. The consequences of claiming the moral high ground and then being wrong are so devastating to the ego, that the best way to avoid the ego death that results is to never ever claim the moral high ground, or the expert status. If you need to prove it, you know it's not true or it's not important, it's a pissing contest and you are being bloody minded over trivia or prestige. Don't do that to yourself.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:24 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
This has been me in the past and is something I still struggle with a bit. Having an ex partner who was as smart or smarter than I am helped some: I was often wrong in our disagreements. Actually, as I’ve aged I’ve seen myself be wrong a lot and that has certainly mellowed me out.
I lived with my parents for a while, and seeing how self-righteous I’d become through my mother’s eyes made me want to be better. I don’t want to hurt anyone I love, and being selfish-righteous is disrespectful and damaging.
Someone close to me now is righteous and judgemental, and they have a hard time with empathy: they are very sure that they are Right and cannot even conceive that someone else might have access to rightness in a disagreement. Their rock solid belief that they’re 100% correct means that disagreeing with them is difficult, because they are only seeking a way to correct my thinking, not to come to an agreement based on mutual learning, etc. This is especially instructive because this person is demonstrably wrong a decent percentage of the time. I’m finding that it’s even harder to respect someone who is wrong when they’re stubbornly sure of themselves as being the smartest / infallible: it’s like an extra layer of wrongness that’s less forgivable than the initial misperception.
I do not want to be like that. I want to concede that I may be wrong, NOT only as lip service or being the best arguer, but deeply, so that I have access to learning and thinking that would be blocked by self-certainty. Smug wrong people don’t grow or learn, and they’re also hard to be around. Don’t get stuck like that. It’s sad and ugly. Seek all opportunities to see where you’re wrong. It’s very hard and annoying and sometimes hurts, but it’s also necessary and beautiful.
posted by Edna Million at 9:49 AM on January 30, 2022
I lived with my parents for a while, and seeing how self-righteous I’d become through my mother’s eyes made me want to be better. I don’t want to hurt anyone I love, and being selfish-righteous is disrespectful and damaging.
Someone close to me now is righteous and judgemental, and they have a hard time with empathy: they are very sure that they are Right and cannot even conceive that someone else might have access to rightness in a disagreement. Their rock solid belief that they’re 100% correct means that disagreeing with them is difficult, because they are only seeking a way to correct my thinking, not to come to an agreement based on mutual learning, etc. This is especially instructive because this person is demonstrably wrong a decent percentage of the time. I’m finding that it’s even harder to respect someone who is wrong when they’re stubbornly sure of themselves as being the smartest / infallible: it’s like an extra layer of wrongness that’s less forgivable than the initial misperception.
I do not want to be like that. I want to concede that I may be wrong, NOT only as lip service or being the best arguer, but deeply, so that I have access to learning and thinking that would be blocked by self-certainty. Smug wrong people don’t grow or learn, and they’re also hard to be around. Don’t get stuck like that. It’s sad and ugly. Seek all opportunities to see where you’re wrong. It’s very hard and annoying and sometimes hurts, but it’s also necessary and beautiful.
posted by Edna Million at 9:49 AM on January 30, 2022
Agree with asking questions like Why do you think___, I'm curious about that, I'd like to know more. That works for people who have different opinions, like about music, some politics, food, etc. I don't often like my friends' movie and tv recommendations, but I like hearing why they like it, I'll usually try the show, and that's a valid area for opinion. Also questions that draw people out; somebody makes a comment about Bernie Sanders; ask them hpw they're feeling about Biden, or about the next Supreme Court nom. people's opinions, esp. the reasons behind them, can be surprising.
When somebody willfully embraces ignorance, like Covid deniers, vax deniers, Climate Crisis deniers, I just state that I have a very different understanding and try to change the subject. I have politely asked vax denying people to re-consider because I want them to be well. If someone wants to debate, I will, if I have energy, but people who embrace ignorance don't want to learn. If people are being racist, sexist, anti-gay, anti-trans, age-ist, etc., I will usually engage, gently if I think they don't want to be an asshole. Social pressure effects change.
I wonder if you're socially anxious and tend to get passionate and go on at length? It's the going on at length that's the issue. Or know-it-all-ing with Well, Actually and explaining why someone doesn't truly get Jane Austen. A person who calls you self-righteous may just be bullying you, esp. because you sound like confidence is something you struggle with. Passionate people are interesting, esp. if they take the time to listen to other peoples' passions. you sound like humility is already something you practice. Work on listening to other people, we all love that, but don't let anybody silence you.
posted by theora55 at 10:20 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
When somebody willfully embraces ignorance, like Covid deniers, vax deniers, Climate Crisis deniers, I just state that I have a very different understanding and try to change the subject. I have politely asked vax denying people to re-consider because I want them to be well. If someone wants to debate, I will, if I have energy, but people who embrace ignorance don't want to learn. If people are being racist, sexist, anti-gay, anti-trans, age-ist, etc., I will usually engage, gently if I think they don't want to be an asshole. Social pressure effects change.
I wonder if you're socially anxious and tend to get passionate and go on at length? It's the going on at length that's the issue. Or know-it-all-ing with Well, Actually and explaining why someone doesn't truly get Jane Austen. A person who calls you self-righteous may just be bullying you, esp. because you sound like confidence is something you struggle with. Passionate people are interesting, esp. if they take the time to listen to other peoples' passions. you sound like humility is already something you practice. Work on listening to other people, we all love that, but don't let anybody silence you.
posted by theora55 at 10:20 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
If there's one thing to correct it's the notion that "humility" is the opposite or correction of self-righteousness - some kind of abnegation of self-respect or confidence in your knowledge or analysis. The least humble people are quite often the least self-righteousness because their status doesn't rely upon being seen as right, they aren't emotionally affected by other people being wrong, and they aren't embarrassed to change their mind to favor views they once thought were wrong.
posted by MattD at 10:59 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 10:59 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Tons and tons of great advice and insight here. I have also struggled with this, and it's not easy, especially in today's very judgemental and polarized times. So, I think you should cut yourself a little slack and recognize that you are taking a huge step by being willing to take a look at this. Many people never even get to this point.
A few years ago, I had to write a eulogy for a co-worker I disliked who died tragically on the job. I wanted to write something that reflected the reality of the person rather than just a bunch of platitudes, so I made a list of all the things I could remember about her, all of which I thought were things she did "wrong" and tried to turn them into positives. (I wrote about that in more detail here in case you are interested.) The really weird thing was that as I went through my list, and tried to really see things from her point of view, I realized that many were really not as clear-cut as I thought. Even in cases where I still disagreed with her behaviour, I could see and appreciate the positive intent behind it. It was a truly eye-opening experience and since then, I apply this technique often when I find myself really coming down on somebody in my own mind.
Curiosity is definitely a key quality/skill that will help with this process. One other important thing is to recognize our own innate tendency to confirmation bias, i.e. we think we're usually right because we track all those times when circumstances end up supporting our points of view. So, another useful thing to do is to keep a log of times when you catch yourself silently judging somebody and thinking something like "wow, this is going to end badly," and then periodically reviewing the situations to see what actually happened. Was your friend really wrong not to DTMFA, or did the couple get past their difficulties and seem happy now? Did the person really lose money by doing/not doing XYZ with their investments? Gathering this kind of data can really help understand that a) we're not always right and b) the world is a lot more complex than we might be able to see up front.
posted by rpfields at 11:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
A few years ago, I had to write a eulogy for a co-worker I disliked who died tragically on the job. I wanted to write something that reflected the reality of the person rather than just a bunch of platitudes, so I made a list of all the things I could remember about her, all of which I thought were things she did "wrong" and tried to turn them into positives. (I wrote about that in more detail here in case you are interested.) The really weird thing was that as I went through my list, and tried to really see things from her point of view, I realized that many were really not as clear-cut as I thought. Even in cases where I still disagreed with her behaviour, I could see and appreciate the positive intent behind it. It was a truly eye-opening experience and since then, I apply this technique often when I find myself really coming down on somebody in my own mind.
Curiosity is definitely a key quality/skill that will help with this process. One other important thing is to recognize our own innate tendency to confirmation bias, i.e. we think we're usually right because we track all those times when circumstances end up supporting our points of view. So, another useful thing to do is to keep a log of times when you catch yourself silently judging somebody and thinking something like "wow, this is going to end badly," and then periodically reviewing the situations to see what actually happened. Was your friend really wrong not to DTMFA, or did the couple get past their difficulties and seem happy now? Did the person really lose money by doing/not doing XYZ with their investments? Gathering this kind of data can really help understand that a) we're not always right and b) the world is a lot more complex than we might be able to see up front.
posted by rpfields at 11:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I work in a knowledge industry and I strive to be a person of reasonable morals, so Knowing Things is a big part of my personality. I tend to have strong opinions, but I'm not an extrovert
I struggle with this, too, but I don't know if it's in the same way as you. As a fellow traveler, for what it's worth:
My default assumption in a knowledge industry conversation where I'm among peers and/or providing advice or training, is that we're going to all share our thoughts and opinions as equals. But I've learned I have to say that out loud every time, not assume it. What happens is that if my tone and phrasing come across as a little overconfident when I say my piece and/or if I'm on the powerful side of a power differential, then people who are more socially graced than I am feel uncomfortable speaking up, because they think I'm being self-righteous and unwilling to hear. My intent to treat others equally doesn't matter if the effect of my behavior doesn't make them feel treated as equal. Being a bit slow to pick up on social cues, I have to use my words in order to overcome unintentional facial/tone/phrasing/social/cultural messages I may send by accident. So I try to remember to say out loud that I want to know what the other person/people think. Smile. Pause so they can respond. Say it more often than is normal for me, rephrasing it in the most gentle and inviting ways. ("what questions do you have?" instead of "do you have any questions?" for example) Use active listening so they know I heard and understood them. Thank them for sharing. Pause to consider (even though I Know right away... still pause) before responding. It has taken some time for me to really internalize (and sometimes I still get carried away and forget) that consistently applying these social graces is even more important than providing Correct Answers.
When it comes to morals, I was raised in a religious community that had different ("higher") morals than the broader community, because they/we/I Knew Things others didn't know. When I was in that community, I often wished people (friends or acquaintances) would ask me what we believed and practiced, and maybe go with me to one service, because no one outside the community ever understood it quite Right. After I left that community, I figured I should return the favor and at least once visit a religious service of each faith or denomination that I had a good friend in. I guess it should have been obvious that I didn't know much about their faiths, but wow it was eye-opening to see what a childlike level of ignorance and astoundingly wrong assumptions I had about their foundational beliefs and everyday practices.
Maybe what both of my examples have in common is the question, "do you want to be right, or do you want to connect with people?"
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I struggle with this, too, but I don't know if it's in the same way as you. As a fellow traveler, for what it's worth:
My default assumption in a knowledge industry conversation where I'm among peers and/or providing advice or training, is that we're going to all share our thoughts and opinions as equals. But I've learned I have to say that out loud every time, not assume it. What happens is that if my tone and phrasing come across as a little overconfident when I say my piece and/or if I'm on the powerful side of a power differential, then people who are more socially graced than I am feel uncomfortable speaking up, because they think I'm being self-righteous and unwilling to hear. My intent to treat others equally doesn't matter if the effect of my behavior doesn't make them feel treated as equal. Being a bit slow to pick up on social cues, I have to use my words in order to overcome unintentional facial/tone/phrasing/social/cultural messages I may send by accident. So I try to remember to say out loud that I want to know what the other person/people think. Smile. Pause so they can respond. Say it more often than is normal for me, rephrasing it in the most gentle and inviting ways. ("what questions do you have?" instead of "do you have any questions?" for example) Use active listening so they know I heard and understood them. Thank them for sharing. Pause to consider (even though I Know right away... still pause) before responding. It has taken some time for me to really internalize (and sometimes I still get carried away and forget) that consistently applying these social graces is even more important than providing Correct Answers.
When it comes to morals, I was raised in a religious community that had different ("higher") morals than the broader community, because they/we/I Knew Things others didn't know. When I was in that community, I often wished people (friends or acquaintances) would ask me what we believed and practiced, and maybe go with me to one service, because no one outside the community ever understood it quite Right. After I left that community, I figured I should return the favor and at least once visit a religious service of each faith or denomination that I had a good friend in. I guess it should have been obvious that I didn't know much about their faiths, but wow it was eye-opening to see what a childlike level of ignorance and astoundingly wrong assumptions I had about their foundational beliefs and everyday practices.
Maybe what both of my examples have in common is the question, "do you want to be right, or do you want to connect with people?"
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I tend to have strong opinions
Opinions, or facts? There's no such thing as being "right" about an opinion. You might know something the other person doesn't know, they might know something you don't know, you might be working to different goals or weight competing principles differently.
So practically, what I try to do is:
Mind your own business - who cares if someone's "wrong" about a thing that doesn't affect me?
Pick your battles - Is this winnable? Even if so, is the payoff worth the conflict and effect on my reputation?
Assume everyone is as smart as me. Be suspicious when I disagree, try to find out what they know that I don't know.
After those three screening exercises, maybe it's worth taking a stand on it. I still assume it's a "different goals" or "different priorities in balancing principles" situation, not that they are a wrongity-wrong dumbass. Because that shows even if I don't say it.
posted by ctmf at 4:48 PM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Opinions, or facts? There's no such thing as being "right" about an opinion. You might know something the other person doesn't know, they might know something you don't know, you might be working to different goals or weight competing principles differently.
So practically, what I try to do is:
Mind your own business - who cares if someone's "wrong" about a thing that doesn't affect me?
Pick your battles - Is this winnable? Even if so, is the payoff worth the conflict and effect on my reputation?
Assume everyone is as smart as me. Be suspicious when I disagree, try to find out what they know that I don't know.
After those three screening exercises, maybe it's worth taking a stand on it. I still assume it's a "different goals" or "different priorities in balancing principles" situation, not that they are a wrongity-wrong dumbass. Because that shows even if I don't say it.
posted by ctmf at 4:48 PM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I made this change by deciding I no longer wanted my identity tied up in knowing things. Once I didn't have ego invested, it was easy to be open to other views.
"Who am I?" seems to occur to everybody at various points in their lives and with varying degrees of urgency.
My best effort at answering this question so far, and one that I've been happy with for four solid decades now, involves splitting it in two. Who am I? I am this; now describe this.
The first part of the answer appears to be tautologous, but I don't think it is, not really. What it does is to put the focus squarely on the search for a persistent referent for the words "I" and "this". And this is a search that can proceed completely independently of addressing the demand in the second part.
That second part is where many of the people I've met seem to go immediately in pursuit of their own sense of identity. I think that's a mistake. Descriptions of people must evolve over time if they're to remain at all accurate, because people do. To treat any aspect of any such description as if changing it involved a risk of losing one's identity entirely is to give it far more weight than I think is warranted. And yet lots of people do seem to do exactly this: "If I'm not a (soldier|heterosexual|Christian|.*) any more, what is there left to live for?"
You don't actually need to be Right simply in order to go on being you. All you need for that is to keep breathing.
posted by flabdablet at 9:49 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Who am I?" seems to occur to everybody at various points in their lives and with varying degrees of urgency.
My best effort at answering this question so far, and one that I've been happy with for four solid decades now, involves splitting it in two. Who am I? I am this; now describe this.
The first part of the answer appears to be tautologous, but I don't think it is, not really. What it does is to put the focus squarely on the search for a persistent referent for the words "I" and "this". And this is a search that can proceed completely independently of addressing the demand in the second part.
That second part is where many of the people I've met seem to go immediately in pursuit of their own sense of identity. I think that's a mistake. Descriptions of people must evolve over time if they're to remain at all accurate, because people do. To treat any aspect of any such description as if changing it involved a risk of losing one's identity entirely is to give it far more weight than I think is warranted. And yet lots of people do seem to do exactly this: "If I'm not a (soldier|heterosexual|Christian|.*) any more, what is there left to live for?"
You don't actually need to be Right simply in order to go on being you. All you need for that is to keep breathing.
posted by flabdablet at 9:49 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
That said, being right more often than not about how stuff actually does work can be a big help with the keep breathing thing. See also: Herman Cain Awards.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
lol go get a phd.
but seriously,
becoming a professional "knower" is also joining a community of people who know precisely how little they know. moral certainty is a sign of ignorance.
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:07 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
but seriously,
becoming a professional "knower" is also joining a community of people who know precisely how little they know. moral certainty is a sign of ignorance.
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:07 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sorry I don't have time to read all the responses above. I'll just say that to Know something indisputably is to create error somewhere else, at the corner cases or boundaries with other things that are True. The world, including the world of the mind, is incredibly non-linear and wiggly. When you say you Know something, you are really just saying that thing is true within a certain linearized patch of the overall wiggly world. Humility comes from recognizing this and so not being so sure of yourself.
posted by hypnogogue at 8:24 AM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 8:24 AM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Coming back to add that reframing my vision of myself from "somebody who knows things" to "somebody who learns things" has made a big difference to my attitude across the board.
posted by rpfields at 1:36 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 1:36 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have a distinct childhood memory, from the age of maybe 8, of wandering through the gate that divided the front half of our house's yard from the back half, and having it suddenly occur to me with the force of revelation that I didn't need to go to school any more because I already knew everything.
And having suddenly understood that I could prove that I knew everything, I immediately went on to do so. I thought of something I knew - can't remember exactly what, plausibly the seven times table - and checked that I knew it. Yes! Then I thought of something else that I knew, and checked that I knew that. And I kept on doing that for maybe five minutes, just standing there with the scent of the grass that Dad had cut maybe three days prior and that gate latch's familiar krrTunk!aduggaduggadugga looping over and over on inside-head radio, and it was true: everything I could think of, I could think of.
This transcendently confident certainty lasted, I dunno, maybe the rest of the day? I can't remember what broke it, and of course I did go back to school. But I'm not sure it's ever completely worn off.
I don't think there's a single thing wrong with taking pleasure in one's own stock of hard-won knowledge. But it is rude to gloat about it, and any belief that it could ever be anything like complete, even in principle, even for quite limited purposes, is a bit of a red flag for being stuck in a young affluent white boychild's mindset.
The older I've become, the more value I've found in discarding beliefs that I used to feel a need to rely on. Note that this is not at all the same thing as replacing old understandings with new ones that come from lived experience, either my own or that of others, though obviously that's always going to be going on as well. It's about winnowing down and throwing out and learning to live without, embracing uncertainty until all that's left is a shrinking core of apparently-still-essentials.
At death's door, I like to think I'll be grinning with the delight of needing to rely on nothing but This Is.
posted by flabdablet at 8:27 PM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
And having suddenly understood that I could prove that I knew everything, I immediately went on to do so. I thought of something I knew - can't remember exactly what, plausibly the seven times table - and checked that I knew it. Yes! Then I thought of something else that I knew, and checked that I knew that. And I kept on doing that for maybe five minutes, just standing there with the scent of the grass that Dad had cut maybe three days prior and that gate latch's familiar krrTunk!aduggaduggadugga looping over and over on inside-head radio, and it was true: everything I could think of, I could think of.
This transcendently confident certainty lasted, I dunno, maybe the rest of the day? I can't remember what broke it, and of course I did go back to school. But I'm not sure it's ever completely worn off.
I don't think there's a single thing wrong with taking pleasure in one's own stock of hard-won knowledge. But it is rude to gloat about it, and any belief that it could ever be anything like complete, even in principle, even for quite limited purposes, is a bit of a red flag for being stuck in a young affluent white boychild's mindset.
The older I've become, the more value I've found in discarding beliefs that I used to feel a need to rely on. Note that this is not at all the same thing as replacing old understandings with new ones that come from lived experience, either my own or that of others, though obviously that's always going to be going on as well. It's about winnowing down and throwing out and learning to live without, embracing uncertainty until all that's left is a shrinking core of apparently-still-essentials.
At death's door, I like to think I'll be grinning with the delight of needing to rely on nothing but This Is.
posted by flabdablet at 8:27 PM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Try doing more activities where you can get direct feedback about whether or not you're actually right. I think this helps with getting comfortable with the idea of being wrong. Also it's often surprising just how wrong we are about things. Some examples: poker, chess or any other game where it's easy to verify the "right" answer and get feedback that you have made an objective mistake.
But the most helpful activity I'd recommend is trying making some future predictions. See Matthew Yglesias's predictions for an example. It's very humbling to look back a year later and realize how wrong you can be about something you were so sure of. It's not even necessary to make this public. I keep a private spreadsheet where I make predictions. Guesses about politics, about silly things, about things I'm very confident about, about economics. It takes a while depending on the timeframe your predictions are on but there's nothing more humbling than reading your prediction from a year ago with 90% confidence and seeing how wildly off base you were. This might not help with general humility about less "objective" things but it's an easy activity to do and is guaranteed to help build at least some humility.
posted by aaabbbccc at 10:40 PM on January 31, 2022
But the most helpful activity I'd recommend is trying making some future predictions. See Matthew Yglesias's predictions for an example. It's very humbling to look back a year later and realize how wrong you can be about something you were so sure of. It's not even necessary to make this public. I keep a private spreadsheet where I make predictions. Guesses about politics, about silly things, about things I'm very confident about, about economics. It takes a while depending on the timeframe your predictions are on but there's nothing more humbling than reading your prediction from a year ago with 90% confidence and seeing how wildly off base you were. This might not help with general humility about less "objective" things but it's an easy activity to do and is guaranteed to help build at least some humility.
posted by aaabbbccc at 10:40 PM on January 31, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 5:21 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]