Close friend is not vaccinated and doesn’t plan to get vaccinated
December 29, 2021 2:10 PM Subscribe
I’m a grad student at a major UK university and I thought I didn’t know anyone who wasn’t vaccinated. Turns out I was wrong. One of my really close friends (who works at my uni) hasn’t been vaccinated - and much to my horror - I’ve learnt that she doesn’t plan to get vaccinated either. I don’t see her that often - she works remotely and lives with her boyfriend in another city - but we do catch up in person once a month. How do I proceed? I would never tell her what to do - and I’d hate to get into an argument but, as it stands, I can’t meet up with her anymore without risking my health.
I’m not entirely sure why she’s decided to go down this path but if I could hazard a guess, it’s that she’s turned pretty religious in the last couple of years. From whatever I’ve read, a large proportion of unvaccinated people in the UK are from the same religious background. So I feel like this is something she’s absorbed because she’s very secular in her outlook (or so I thought anyway) with her friends - and religion has always been a private matter for her.
She has no health issues that would prevent her from taking this vaccine and her partner is double vaccinated. Probably not relevant but her boyfriend is non-religious and from different religious heritage.
I feel extremely frustrated and upset because I only recently learnt she’s unvaccinated. I don’t want to lose her as a friend but I can’t keep meeting up with her. And neither do I want to hurt her feelings.
I’m not entirely sure why she’s decided to go down this path but if I could hazard a guess, it’s that she’s turned pretty religious in the last couple of years. From whatever I’ve read, a large proportion of unvaccinated people in the UK are from the same religious background. So I feel like this is something she’s absorbed because she’s very secular in her outlook (or so I thought anyway) with her friends - and religion has always been a private matter for her.
She has no health issues that would prevent her from taking this vaccine and her partner is double vaccinated. Probably not relevant but her boyfriend is non-religious and from different religious heritage.
I feel extremely frustrated and upset because I only recently learnt she’s unvaccinated. I don’t want to lose her as a friend but I can’t keep meeting up with her. And neither do I want to hurt her feelings.
You may need to choose between moderately hurt feelings and what you judge as risk to your health. I, personally, would choose the hurt feelings in this scenario. Hurdy gurdy girl's suggested script is great.
posted by Alterscape at 2:41 PM on December 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 2:41 PM on December 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
There is no reason why not meeting up with her should hurt her feelings. There's nothing disrespectful or boundary-violating about this. If her feelings are hurt then it's because of whatever is going on in her head and you have no control over that.
posted by bleep at 2:45 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:45 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
Ugh, this is tough. I agree that being straightforward with her is the best way to go. Framing it to be about your needs/feelings might also soften it a bit, e.g. "I don't feel safe meeting in-person with anybody who isn't vaccinated, so we need to shift our get-togethers to Zoom (or whatever) until all this is over."
I wouldn't say anything about her getting vaccinated since she's probably getting it fro mall sides and there's probably no point in having that argument with you as well. If she's an intelligent adult she knows that would make a difference and so if she ever changes her mind and lets you know you can go from there. Focussing on your feelings rather than the objective situation will discourage any of the counter-science BS.
If she presses, you could say something along the lines of "I'm not judging you and I don't want to lose our friendship, but I need to do what I can to feel safe. I respect your boundaries and I need you to respect mine."
posted by rpfields at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2021 [25 favorites]
I wouldn't say anything about her getting vaccinated since she's probably getting it fro mall sides and there's probably no point in having that argument with you as well. If she's an intelligent adult she knows that would make a difference and so if she ever changes her mind and lets you know you can go from there. Focussing on your feelings rather than the objective situation will discourage any of the counter-science BS.
If she presses, you could say something along the lines of "I'm not judging you and I don't want to lose our friendship, but I need to do what I can to feel safe. I respect your boundaries and I need you to respect mine."
posted by rpfields at 2:54 PM on December 29, 2021 [25 favorites]
I think rpfields has the perfect response for you - it's important not to let something like this destroy a friendship, but your position deserves the same level of respect as hers does.
posted by dg at 3:16 PM on December 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by dg at 3:16 PM on December 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
How have you been meeting up previously? Indoors or out? Masked or no? Just wondering on that one. Like I'm forced to work with someone who's unvaccinated, and indoors, but at least she masks up and is following the strict work requirements. I guess I'm just wondering how different your situation is going to be saying "absolutely not in person any more" compared to what you have been doing when you thought she was vaxxed. That might be a factor in what you say to her, because I could see "but we're wearing masks/outdoors, what are you talking about, everything's fine!" as an argument she might make. But that said, omicron + UK should be enough reasonable argument against continuing meeting as you were before, whatever that was.
I don't think there's any point in trying to figure out "but why isn't she" at this point. There's so many blockheaded people out there these days that it seems like a waste of time trying to figure out the why or how to get them to change their minds. Unfortunately, you may very well have to hurt her feelings here, depending on how she's uh, doing mentally. Those who choose to not get their shots and make their lives safer (or other people safer) are going to have to deal with the consequences of their actions and having their options limited. You don't like this? Get the shot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't think there's any point in trying to figure out "but why isn't she" at this point. There's so many blockheaded people out there these days that it seems like a waste of time trying to figure out the why or how to get them to change their minds. Unfortunately, you may very well have to hurt her feelings here, depending on how she's uh, doing mentally. Those who choose to not get their shots and make their lives safer (or other people safer) are going to have to deal with the consequences of their actions and having their options limited. You don't like this? Get the shot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you are vaccinated, you are pretty safe. Some people do exercise zero tolerance and are fortunate to be able to live a life where they have that privilege. If you are not up for any risk, say that. Maybe keep in touch via phone calls and texts.
You could mitigate risk by meeting outside, wearing masks, etc.. There is also rapid testing, which a lot of people seem to use during the holidays. Do what makes you feel safe.
posted by rhonzo at 4:09 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
You could mitigate risk by meeting outside, wearing masks, etc.. There is also rapid testing, which a lot of people seem to use during the holidays. Do what makes you feel safe.
posted by rhonzo at 4:09 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am in the minority on this issue, but I'll share anyway.
If I hadn't needed the vaccination for an oral surgery (and after that for my workplace) I wouldn't have taken it. Why? Not because of religion, and not because of conspiracy theories. Rather, I feel like COVID is endemic and part of life now, like the cold or flu, and I am young-ish and healthy and not worried about it.
I don't interact with elderly people. None of my friends are immuno-compromised. And, more importantly, I have kids that I share with an ex-wife who works as a nurse at a hospital that has COVID patients, so my kids are exposed, thus I am exposed. In fact, my kids got COVID in the summer and I tested positive afterward, but was fine.
Passing moral judgement on someone for not being vaccinated is weird to me. If YOU are vaccinated, you have done all that you can to protect yourself. Yet you can still get the virus and pass it on to others...
posted by tacodave at 4:28 PM on December 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
If I hadn't needed the vaccination for an oral surgery (and after that for my workplace) I wouldn't have taken it. Why? Not because of religion, and not because of conspiracy theories. Rather, I feel like COVID is endemic and part of life now, like the cold or flu, and I am young-ish and healthy and not worried about it.
I don't interact with elderly people. None of my friends are immuno-compromised. And, more importantly, I have kids that I share with an ex-wife who works as a nurse at a hospital that has COVID patients, so my kids are exposed, thus I am exposed. In fact, my kids got COVID in the summer and I tested positive afterward, but was fine.
Passing moral judgement on someone for not being vaccinated is weird to me. If YOU are vaccinated, you have done all that you can to protect yourself. Yet you can still get the virus and pass it on to others...
posted by tacodave at 4:28 PM on December 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yet you can still get the virus and pass it on to others...
But less, is the whole point. Can't save everybody isn't the same as can't save anybody, hence the moral judgement. Plus less likelihood of overloading hospital systems such that they can't treat people who really need it.
But anyway, in this case I agree with the approach of "you do you, but these are my boundaries", which is something many religious people will be intimately familiar with in their own lives.
posted by trig at 5:01 PM on December 29, 2021 [39 favorites]
But less, is the whole point. Can't save everybody isn't the same as can't save anybody, hence the moral judgement. Plus less likelihood of overloading hospital systems such that they can't treat people who really need it.
But anyway, in this case I agree with the approach of "you do you, but these are my boundaries", which is something many religious people will be intimately familiar with in their own lives.
posted by trig at 5:01 PM on December 29, 2021 [39 favorites]
Well. As someone who is in moderately good health, got mild Covid back before vaccines were available, and is still not 'fine' nearly 20 months later? You are totally and completely in your right to put your health before your friend's feelings.
Like other people have said, I wouldn't concentrate on why your friend won't get the jab, nor trying to convince them to, nor blaming them for not getting it. However, you are then in the right to voice that in person gatherings/gatherings inside/gatherings without N95 masks, what have you, are not possible at this time, and won't as long as Covid is a risk. And if it's endemic? Then it'll be taking the necesssary precations forever.
I recently had to break off a friendship with someone because they turned into a anti-masker, wouldn't treat Covid seriously, and belittled me when I said that I was. I still wonder how they're doing, but not enough to put myself at risk again to be around them - and their callous flaunting of Covid restrictions.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:05 PM on December 29, 2021 [15 favorites]
Like other people have said, I wouldn't concentrate on why your friend won't get the jab, nor trying to convince them to, nor blaming them for not getting it. However, you are then in the right to voice that in person gatherings/gatherings inside/gatherings without N95 masks, what have you, are not possible at this time, and won't as long as Covid is a risk. And if it's endemic? Then it'll be taking the necesssary precations forever.
I recently had to break off a friendship with someone because they turned into a anti-masker, wouldn't treat Covid seriously, and belittled me when I said that I was. I still wonder how they're doing, but not enough to put myself at risk again to be around them - and their callous flaunting of Covid restrictions.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:05 PM on December 29, 2021 [15 favorites]
[Replies below to tacodave and then to the OP]
tacodave, you have no way of knowing whether your friends *or their friends or relatives* are immuno-compromised. Not everyone knows (yet). Not everyone tells; I guarantee you encounter people/co-workers/others every day with heart and lung and hemotological conditions about which you know nothing. Your statement belies a selfishness that fails to recognize all the things that you do not know.
If you're not doing everything you can to keep people (loved ones or strangers) from getting seriously ill and dying, this is a bare minimum moral judgment one can make about you. You say, "If YOU are vaccinated, you have done all that you can to protect yourself in case of a car accident." That's not remotely true. That's like saying, "If you wear a seatbelt, you've done all you can do to protect yourself," let alone everyone else, completely not texting, driving safely, maintaining your car's safety features, and not driving in dangerous conditions.
If one is vaccinated, one has NOT done ALL they can to do protect themselves. Being vaccinated, being masked, avoiding crowds, avoiding people who do not take precautions, and many more steps can be added to protect oneself and others.
I know of people who've died from COVID who were young. I know people with Long COVID who are young and were healthy and now they can't climb stairs. A friend's newly-married friend got COVID early on, had a stroke (everyone forgets the hematological dangers!), and can't care for himself.
The vaccine, like most vaccines, helps prevent the most dangerous aspects of the illness.
Oh, it's endemic, so you don't think it's worth doing anything? You don't get a flu shot? You lick the handle on the public restroom? There are STDs that are endemic. Would you not get vaccinated against them if possible? Would you not use condoms and be careful not to interact with someone whom you knew did not take precautions?
=====
bigyellowtaxi, I understand your frustration. You have invested trust in this friend and she's doing something to show that she's not trustworthy in regard to protecting other people. I get that you don't want to upset the applecart, but I want to give you the closest example I've yet to come up with.
If you had children who played with the children of your friend, and you found out that your friend kept a loaded firearm unsecured in the house, what would you do? Yes, the person may feel unsafe and that's why they have the firearm. Yes, the person has a right to make decisions about their own safety. But I bet you would not let your child be in the home of an unsecured, loaded firearm BECAUSE IT'S NOT SAFE. And you'd be appalled at your friend and worried about her kids. You can't control what she does, or what happens to those kids, but you must control your own safety.
You'd need to make the right decision for yourself, and then you'd need to find a way to communicate that decision in a way that makes you feel OK. You can lie and make a million excuses as to why you're busy and can't see your friend (just like you could say, "Nope, I'm punishing my kid for a random thing and there will be no playdates" to the weapon-owing person, repeated every week forever) or you could tell some or all of the truth about how you feel.
Personally, if I learned this about someone I knew, I would lose too much respect for them to be friends, I'd grieve the friendship, but I'd be done. But I won't make presumptions about your thoughts in this regard. But there is no way to tell the truth to someone about them doing something you consider dangerous (to you, let alone to them) and not hurt their feelings.
* You can't tell someone you won't ride in their car because they're a bad driver without risking hurting their feelings. (I almost died in a car crash when my father was driving. He was a terrible driver. He continued to have horrible accidents, but I never rode with him again, so I was safer. I had to hurt his feelings.)
* You can't tell someone you won't eat at their home because they have bad household hygiene, don't wash their cookware or plates, and generally gross you out without risking hurting their feelings.
* You can't tell someone you're not willing to do something illegal (just because they wheedle/cajole/insist) without risking hurting their feelings. (But how many friends's feelings are worth winding up in jail to protect?)
With a truly important friendship, you might be willing to try to show them why they're wrong. But in the end, the only thing you have to do is maintain your own boundaries, however you can.
In the end, you have to decide how honest you want to be about how upset you are at them. We can't make that decision for you, but we can support you in making that decision.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 5:33 PM on December 29, 2021 [69 favorites]
tacodave, you have no way of knowing whether your friends *or their friends or relatives* are immuno-compromised. Not everyone knows (yet). Not everyone tells; I guarantee you encounter people/co-workers/others every day with heart and lung and hemotological conditions about which you know nothing. Your statement belies a selfishness that fails to recognize all the things that you do not know.
If you're not doing everything you can to keep people (loved ones or strangers) from getting seriously ill and dying, this is a bare minimum moral judgment one can make about you. You say, "If YOU are vaccinated, you have done all that you can to protect yourself in case of a car accident." That's not remotely true. That's like saying, "If you wear a seatbelt, you've done all you can do to protect yourself," let alone everyone else, completely not texting, driving safely, maintaining your car's safety features, and not driving in dangerous conditions.
If one is vaccinated, one has NOT done ALL they can to do protect themselves. Being vaccinated, being masked, avoiding crowds, avoiding people who do not take precautions, and many more steps can be added to protect oneself and others.
I know of people who've died from COVID who were young. I know people with Long COVID who are young and were healthy and now they can't climb stairs. A friend's newly-married friend got COVID early on, had a stroke (everyone forgets the hematological dangers!), and can't care for himself.
The vaccine, like most vaccines, helps prevent the most dangerous aspects of the illness.
Oh, it's endemic, so you don't think it's worth doing anything? You don't get a flu shot? You lick the handle on the public restroom? There are STDs that are endemic. Would you not get vaccinated against them if possible? Would you not use condoms and be careful not to interact with someone whom you knew did not take precautions?
=====
bigyellowtaxi, I understand your frustration. You have invested trust in this friend and she's doing something to show that she's not trustworthy in regard to protecting other people. I get that you don't want to upset the applecart, but I want to give you the closest example I've yet to come up with.
If you had children who played with the children of your friend, and you found out that your friend kept a loaded firearm unsecured in the house, what would you do? Yes, the person may feel unsafe and that's why they have the firearm. Yes, the person has a right to make decisions about their own safety. But I bet you would not let your child be in the home of an unsecured, loaded firearm BECAUSE IT'S NOT SAFE. And you'd be appalled at your friend and worried about her kids. You can't control what she does, or what happens to those kids, but you must control your own safety.
You'd need to make the right decision for yourself, and then you'd need to find a way to communicate that decision in a way that makes you feel OK. You can lie and make a million excuses as to why you're busy and can't see your friend (just like you could say, "Nope, I'm punishing my kid for a random thing and there will be no playdates" to the weapon-owing person, repeated every week forever) or you could tell some or all of the truth about how you feel.
Personally, if I learned this about someone I knew, I would lose too much respect for them to be friends, I'd grieve the friendship, but I'd be done. But I won't make presumptions about your thoughts in this regard. But there is no way to tell the truth to someone about them doing something you consider dangerous (to you, let alone to them) and not hurt their feelings.
* You can't tell someone you won't ride in their car because they're a bad driver without risking hurting their feelings. (I almost died in a car crash when my father was driving. He was a terrible driver. He continued to have horrible accidents, but I never rode with him again, so I was safer. I had to hurt his feelings.)
* You can't tell someone you won't eat at their home because they have bad household hygiene, don't wash their cookware or plates, and generally gross you out without risking hurting their feelings.
* You can't tell someone you're not willing to do something illegal (just because they wheedle/cajole/insist) without risking hurting their feelings. (But how many friends's feelings are worth winding up in jail to protect?)
With a truly important friendship, you might be willing to try to show them why they're wrong. But in the end, the only thing you have to do is maintain your own boundaries, however you can.
In the end, you have to decide how honest you want to be about how upset you are at them. We can't make that decision for you, but we can support you in making that decision.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 5:33 PM on December 29, 2021 [69 favorites]
A friend of mine for more than 40 years has placed me in the same boat. She's using religious reasons, and IS religious... but is pretty clearly not even using critical thinking skills that I've heard her use in the past on previous topics. It frustrates and scares me.
After a text message conversation, I pretty much resigned myself to not seeing her in person again for a very long time, and praying she stays safe.
The very next day, I ran into her in a large box store that neither of us had no way of knowing the other would be at - I'd nearly talked myself out of going at all, and she was stopped by mid-trip home from her mother's.
I pretty much decided that was God/the Universe's way of telling me that I made the right decision, it was a chance to tell her I love her and make sure we were on somewhat ok terms after an unusually volatile conversation for us, and accept that whatever happened, I'd done what I could and it was not in my hands.
posted by stormyteal at 5:37 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
After a text message conversation, I pretty much resigned myself to not seeing her in person again for a very long time, and praying she stays safe.
The very next day, I ran into her in a large box store that neither of us had no way of knowing the other would be at - I'd nearly talked myself out of going at all, and she was stopped by mid-trip home from her mother's.
I pretty much decided that was God/the Universe's way of telling me that I made the right decision, it was a chance to tell her I love her and make sure we were on somewhat ok terms after an unusually volatile conversation for us, and accept that whatever happened, I'd done what I could and it was not in my hands.
posted by stormyteal at 5:37 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Your friend has made a choice that puts herself and others at risk. It’s not your job to shield her from the consequences of this. I mean, don’t be horrible about it but I wouldn’t sugarcoat it either - tell her if she’s unvaccinated you won’t be catching up. And trust me, you won’t be the only person in her life curtailing their interactions with her either.
posted by Jubey at 6:06 PM on December 29, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 6:06 PM on December 29, 2021 [10 favorites]
A person very dear to me died of covid in September. He was vaccinated. He had a serious comorbidity. Someone unvaccinated in his community was his likely point of exposure. If you refuse to get vaccinated, you too could kill someone in the same way. I would absolutely pass moral judgment on a "friend" who was that selfish. I do in fact pass moral judgment on "young and healthy" people who cannot grasp the very idea of social responsibility and have no good reason not to get the vaccine except "why should I?"
But even if I refrained from articulating that judgment, I damn sure would not meet with them in person any time soon.
posted by spitbull at 6:11 PM on December 29, 2021 [42 favorites]
But even if I refrained from articulating that judgment, I damn sure would not meet with them in person any time soon.
posted by spitbull at 6:11 PM on December 29, 2021 [42 favorites]
How do I proceed? I would never tell her what to do - and I’d hate to get into an argument but, as it stands, I can’t meet up with her anymore without risking my health.
I think you keep things simplest when you explain your non-negotiable boundaries clearly: I can't meet with people who aren't vaccinated so I won't be able to see you in person as long as you have that status.
There is no need for any argument. You're not trying to convince her that she's wrong or you're right - you're simply explaining a personal boundary and the consequences of enforcing it. (Of course, if you do try to talk her into your point of view, there may be an argument.)
That isn't to say it will be easy or emotionless either. She may feel upset, or you may.
posted by theorique at 6:33 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I think you keep things simplest when you explain your non-negotiable boundaries clearly: I can't meet with people who aren't vaccinated so I won't be able to see you in person as long as you have that status.
There is no need for any argument. You're not trying to convince her that she's wrong or you're right - you're simply explaining a personal boundary and the consequences of enforcing it. (Of course, if you do try to talk her into your point of view, there may be an argument.)
That isn't to say it will be easy or emotionless either. She may feel upset, or you may.
posted by theorique at 6:33 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I agree with theorique, it does not need to be complicated. You can't be around unvaccinated people, or, in other words "It won't be possible".
Her decision has consequences, as they say.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:10 PM on December 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
Her decision has consequences, as they say.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:10 PM on December 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
You are already encountering unvaccinated people in public places; you just don't know which people they are. I would say that if you meet up with this person, outside, just once a month, the proportion by which you're increasing your COVID risk is so small as to be negligible. (This advice may not apply if you are in a circumstance where you've chosen to be really fully secluded, not encountering people every day or going into buildings, etc.)
If what you want is to send a message, I think insisting on meeting her outdoors instead of indoors will do the trick.
posted by escabeche at 8:37 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
If what you want is to send a message, I think insisting on meeting her outdoors instead of indoors will do the trick.
posted by escabeche at 8:37 PM on December 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t want to lose her as a friend but I can’t keep meeting up with her. And neither do I want to hurt her feelings.
Right now, I view not getting vaccinated (other than for legit medical reasons) as a litmus test on whether I can be anything other than a distanced and casual friend with someone. Not just because of the health risk and their irresponsibility of not helping contain the pandemic, but because there is a strong correlation with not getting vaccinated and having political/cultural views that don't align with mine. A significant portion of my friends are LGBTQ and if someone doesn't think that me and mine deserve rights, I'm not going to be friends with them.
Passing moral judgement on someone for not being vaccinated is weird to me.
Because our hospitals and perhaps more importantly our medical staff are at the point of breaking and it's the attitudes of people like you that have played a major role in preventing us from getting the situation under control so it can become "merely" endemic. The basic facts like the ones The Wrong Kind of Cheese dropped above have been told to people like you until we're blue in the face for nearly a year now, so yeah, at the point that someone's engaging in willful ignorance, yells "YOLO!" and endangers their community and helps keep Covid a pandemic rather than endemic disease, we tend to get a little judgy. We've been engaged in the world's worst group project for the past 21 months and you're the member who's not been paying attention and clearly don't understand what everyone's been working on, shrugs and says as long as you don't get a literal 0 you're pretty sure you'll pass the class, except rather a grade on the line it's people's lives. And it's representative of the decline of respect for science and research, where people assert that their feelings about something or what they've gleaned from Facebook memes is as valid as the research and guidance from people that have devoted their lives to studying important subjects like how to not die.
posted by Candleman at 9:28 PM on December 29, 2021 [55 favorites]
Right now, I view not getting vaccinated (other than for legit medical reasons) as a litmus test on whether I can be anything other than a distanced and casual friend with someone. Not just because of the health risk and their irresponsibility of not helping contain the pandemic, but because there is a strong correlation with not getting vaccinated and having political/cultural views that don't align with mine. A significant portion of my friends are LGBTQ and if someone doesn't think that me and mine deserve rights, I'm not going to be friends with them.
Passing moral judgement on someone for not being vaccinated is weird to me.
Because our hospitals and perhaps more importantly our medical staff are at the point of breaking and it's the attitudes of people like you that have played a major role in preventing us from getting the situation under control so it can become "merely" endemic. The basic facts like the ones The Wrong Kind of Cheese dropped above have been told to people like you until we're blue in the face for nearly a year now, so yeah, at the point that someone's engaging in willful ignorance, yells "YOLO!" and endangers their community and helps keep Covid a pandemic rather than endemic disease, we tend to get a little judgy. We've been engaged in the world's worst group project for the past 21 months and you're the member who's not been paying attention and clearly don't understand what everyone's been working on, shrugs and says as long as you don't get a literal 0 you're pretty sure you'll pass the class, except rather a grade on the line it's people's lives. And it's representative of the decline of respect for science and research, where people assert that their feelings about something or what they've gleaned from Facebook memes is as valid as the research and guidance from people that have devoted their lives to studying important subjects like how to not die.
posted by Candleman at 9:28 PM on December 29, 2021 [55 favorites]
I will be blunt: unless you cannot get it for legitimate reasons (age, allergy to ingredients in the vaccine, your own immune system being a butt) vaccination ought to be the price of admittance to a civilized society.
Religion is not a legitimate reason, because every religion that I know of emphasizes the importance of preserving human life and being your sibling's keeper, and vaccination - if you can - is a major way of doing so, generally and during a fucking pandemic.
Your friend is, bluntly, being a selfish bint. She is not only more likely to get seriously ill herself, thus taking up space in an already overloaded system that could go to people not selfish bints, she is putting the people around her at risk, especially the vulnerable.
If her feelings are hurt by people pointing out that she's being a selfish bint? Good. Actions have consequences.
posted by Tamanna at 5:10 AM on December 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
Religion is not a legitimate reason, because every religion that I know of emphasizes the importance of preserving human life and being your sibling's keeper, and vaccination - if you can - is a major way of doing so, generally and during a fucking pandemic.
Your friend is, bluntly, being a selfish bint. She is not only more likely to get seriously ill herself, thus taking up space in an already overloaded system that could go to people not selfish bints, she is putting the people around her at risk, especially the vulnerable.
If her feelings are hurt by people pointing out that she's being a selfish bint? Good. Actions have consequences.
posted by Tamanna at 5:10 AM on December 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
Curious: does your uni have a vaccination policy for staff and students? i.e. must be vaccinated to attend class or work.
Anyway, lots of great answers here. Here's another angle that you may or may not find helpful: unvaxxed person writes into A Practical Wedding saying she can't attend her BFF's destination wedding because of her unvaxxed status. What to do? I think the advice to the LW is really on point.
And for another angle on that, here's That Bad Advice's "advice" to that letter. (It's satire and sarcasm; written for those letters that want to be validated in being superior or "correct" or entitled.)
posted by foxjacket at 6:45 AM on December 30, 2021
Anyway, lots of great answers here. Here's another angle that you may or may not find helpful: unvaxxed person writes into A Practical Wedding saying she can't attend her BFF's destination wedding because of her unvaxxed status. What to do? I think the advice to the LW is really on point.
And for another angle on that, here's That Bad Advice's "advice" to that letter. (It's satire and sarcasm; written for those letters that want to be validated in being superior or "correct" or entitled.)
posted by foxjacket at 6:45 AM on December 30, 2021
Be prepared to hear about choice and counter with, "totally, it's your choice and I respect that* you've made it, and I also need to make my own choices about how it might impact me and how to protect my health" and then redirect back to something positive like Zoom scheduling. (* Respecting that someone has made up their mind is different from having respect for the content of their decision.)
posted by slidell at 11:32 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by slidell at 11:32 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yes, I agree with slidell that even if you do follow the script I recommended above, which contains merely statements of fact about your boundaries, there’s a strong chance your friend will counter with arguments about why it’s her choice not to get vaccinated. Which technically, it is! But the antivaxxers I know are not interested in respecting others’ choices (to avoid their unvaccinated friends and family).
Much like the letter writer in the advice column foxjacket linked to, my anti vax relatives get very upset when faced with the consequences of their choice not to get vaccinated. They believe it’s their right not to get vaccinated, but get upset when others exercise their right not to be around their unvaccinated selves.
Again from experience, if you do want to maintain a relationship with this person, I recommend sticking to the neutral script and then steadfastly redirecting the topic every time she presents you with a “choice” argument.
And remember: just as it’s her choice not to get vaccinated, it’s also her choice to feel hurt by your perfectly reasonable and polite statement of boundaries. But if she does feel hurt, it’s not your fault and you can’t control that.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:02 PM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Much like the letter writer in the advice column foxjacket linked to, my anti vax relatives get very upset when faced with the consequences of their choice not to get vaccinated. They believe it’s their right not to get vaccinated, but get upset when others exercise their right not to be around their unvaccinated selves.
Again from experience, if you do want to maintain a relationship with this person, I recommend sticking to the neutral script and then steadfastly redirecting the topic every time she presents you with a “choice” argument.
And remember: just as it’s her choice not to get vaccinated, it’s also her choice to feel hurt by your perfectly reasonable and polite statement of boundaries. But if she does feel hurt, it’s not your fault and you can’t control that.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:02 PM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Other endemic, or previously endemic, diseases:
Smallpox, measles, rubella, rabies, polio.
I don't suggest you avoid being vaccinated because something may now be endemic. In fact, I would suggest that this reasoning is absurd, ignorant, dangerous, and stupid.
posted by Justinian at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
Smallpox, measles, rubella, rabies, polio.
I don't suggest you avoid being vaccinated because something may now be endemic. In fact, I would suggest that this reasoning is absurd, ignorant, dangerous, and stupid.
posted by Justinian at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
Vaccination won't necessarily keep you safe. My dad and I were doubled vaxxed with Pfizer, but not yet boosted. We both got it. He passed away around 4 this morning and I still feel like shit.
posted by kathrynm at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by kathrynm at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm sorry to hear that, kathrynm.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:45 PM on December 30, 2021
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:45 PM on December 30, 2021
If you must meet up with her, visit her outdoors. As far as we can tell, transmission is really difficult outdoors.
But let me add something-- this Christmas I decided to visit my cousins. A few of them aren't vaccinated, so I made sure to pay $190 to get a PCR test that would give me same-day results, because I cared about protecting them. They, however, did not take the same amount of care about me and everyone else, and one of those unvaccinated cousins basically infected most everyone else at Christmas. And because I spent a fair amount of 1-on-1 time talking to her, I seem to have gotten a painfully symptomatic case, considering the fact that I'm boosted and this is likely the omicron variant.
If I had been head strong enough to simply say, "I am not attending a gathering where there are unvaccinated people," I wouldn't currently be feeling sick and quarantining in my apartment, unable to go outside. And also the effects of getting Covid from "incidental" contact are not nearly as bad as getting covid from someone who's unvaccinated and that you spend a significant amount of 1-on-1 contact with. And that unvaccinated person by nature of being the sort of person who chooses to be unvaccinated will be more careless when it comes to avoiding infection and more careless about protecting others.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 12:18 PM on January 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
But let me add something-- this Christmas I decided to visit my cousins. A few of them aren't vaccinated, so I made sure to pay $190 to get a PCR test that would give me same-day results, because I cared about protecting them. They, however, did not take the same amount of care about me and everyone else, and one of those unvaccinated cousins basically infected most everyone else at Christmas. And because I spent a fair amount of 1-on-1 time talking to her, I seem to have gotten a painfully symptomatic case, considering the fact that I'm boosted and this is likely the omicron variant.
If I had been head strong enough to simply say, "I am not attending a gathering where there are unvaccinated people," I wouldn't currently be feeling sick and quarantining in my apartment, unable to go outside. And also the effects of getting Covid from "incidental" contact are not nearly as bad as getting covid from someone who's unvaccinated and that you spend a significant amount of 1-on-1 contact with. And that unvaccinated person by nature of being the sort of person who chooses to be unvaccinated will be more careless when it comes to avoiding infection and more careless about protecting others.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 12:18 PM on January 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Can you just tell her (part of) what you told us? “I can’t meet up in person with people who aren’t vaccinated. I don’t want to lose you as a friend but I can’t keep meeting up with you in person. I hope we can still connect in other ways (Zoom etc.) though.”
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:19 PM on December 29, 2021 [49 favorites]