I have the most fun with people who suck at feelings + boundaries! Help
October 26, 2021 4:52 AM Subscribe
I have had two connections in the past year that had that time-melts-away, talk-about-anything-and-nothing-for-hours, laugh-my-butt-off vibe and both of them have been with men who are emotionally stunted, bad at communicating and ride over boundaries like they're road markings. I want to set standards for how people treat me but if I let go of the connection with the latest guy, who knows when I'll experience this kind of forget-everything fun again - part of me says, maybe never because maybe it's specifically emotional 6 year olds I connect with in this way? I feel so silly writing this question, but basically - do I just ignore the bad and continue on with a fun friendship?
Obligatory life story psychological background: I was raised by a single mother who routinely rode over my boundaries and didn't really let me exist as an emotionally separate self whose fullness as a human was respected + nourished. I am in therapy and have been intentionally healing from this for some time. I am 25 and have many beautiful, mutually respectful connections, both platonic and intimate. I have healthy boundaries with friends and have gotten better at asserting boundaries with my mother.
Last year at work I met a man who made me feel absolutely crazy schoolgirl crush feelings and with whom I had an intense flirtatious connection, until he owned up to the fact that his girlfriend was not, as he'd previously told me, open to an open relationship and that we couldn't be friends anymore because he had 'emotionally cheated' with me. Very charismatic, very funny, very smart, said and did outrageous things, gave me the space to say and do outrageous things with him and basically forget all my boundaries and just have a good time. (This didn't involve anything physical, except for some leg touching that definitely pushed the boundaries and that I regret engaging in). A big part of why it felt so exciting to be around him is the combination of us getting each other on some intuitive level and being able to say and do anything because we knew the other person would get it. I miss him so much writing this. I've checked back in with him 9 months after we said goodbye but he said he said he wasn't ready to restart the friendship.
6 months after my friendship with this guy ended, I met someone at a party and we ended up talking into the late hours, going home together (no sex except him doing things to me) and then spending a whole day basically talking shit. I distinctly remember thinking I hadn't felt like this since my work friend - this guy was witty, charismatic, knew how to push my buttons and trade barbs in the most fun way. He also told me straight away he was 'emotionally unavailable' and told me 'not to fall in love'. That was an asshole thing to say but fine with me because I didn't want a relationship, just to have a good time and honestly I kind of enjoyed the blunt emotionlessness because it made conversations zero stakes games rather than real emotional ground. We met up again recently after I was out of town for a bit and we had a great time, with him being very affectionate, physically touchy, talking about engaging in shared kinks etc until we went back to his at the end of the day and he said he didn't feel sexually attracted to me. Of course he said this in the least compassionate and caring way possible, some version of 'you know I'm not going to have sex with you' and when I asked if it was because I just didn't do it for him he said 'basically yeah' after which I left and had a big weep at home because, well, rejection and the miscommunication from him, and also I'm a big emotional sook and have a lot of feelings which is maybe why I enjoy turning them off with these guys. I wrote him a message basically saying his acting like he was sexually interested in me when he actually wasn't hurt me and I hoped he wouldn't act that way with someone again + I'd need time to think about a friendship. It's two days later, he's seen the message but not replied.
This is finally the meat of the question - do I continue a friendship with him despite his lack of basic communication skills and emotional intelligence? I feel so amazing and like the most fun version of myself when I'm with him, it makes me teary thinking about letting that go. And then what if I can only feel this way with people who are a bit screwed up, because the feeling is the feeling of extreme freedom that only exists when there are no boundaries and anything goes? Maybe I just have to be a big girl and prioritise my emotional wellbeing and foundations of self respect over having a good time? Is there a way for me to have both? I realise this is a lot of overlapping and diffuse and big questions, so really I would just appreciate any thoughts or similar experiences people have had.
Obligatory life story psychological background: I was raised by a single mother who routinely rode over my boundaries and didn't really let me exist as an emotionally separate self whose fullness as a human was respected + nourished. I am in therapy and have been intentionally healing from this for some time. I am 25 and have many beautiful, mutually respectful connections, both platonic and intimate. I have healthy boundaries with friends and have gotten better at asserting boundaries with my mother.
Last year at work I met a man who made me feel absolutely crazy schoolgirl crush feelings and with whom I had an intense flirtatious connection, until he owned up to the fact that his girlfriend was not, as he'd previously told me, open to an open relationship and that we couldn't be friends anymore because he had 'emotionally cheated' with me. Very charismatic, very funny, very smart, said and did outrageous things, gave me the space to say and do outrageous things with him and basically forget all my boundaries and just have a good time. (This didn't involve anything physical, except for some leg touching that definitely pushed the boundaries and that I regret engaging in). A big part of why it felt so exciting to be around him is the combination of us getting each other on some intuitive level and being able to say and do anything because we knew the other person would get it. I miss him so much writing this. I've checked back in with him 9 months after we said goodbye but he said he said he wasn't ready to restart the friendship.
6 months after my friendship with this guy ended, I met someone at a party and we ended up talking into the late hours, going home together (no sex except him doing things to me) and then spending a whole day basically talking shit. I distinctly remember thinking I hadn't felt like this since my work friend - this guy was witty, charismatic, knew how to push my buttons and trade barbs in the most fun way. He also told me straight away he was 'emotionally unavailable' and told me 'not to fall in love'. That was an asshole thing to say but fine with me because I didn't want a relationship, just to have a good time and honestly I kind of enjoyed the blunt emotionlessness because it made conversations zero stakes games rather than real emotional ground. We met up again recently after I was out of town for a bit and we had a great time, with him being very affectionate, physically touchy, talking about engaging in shared kinks etc until we went back to his at the end of the day and he said he didn't feel sexually attracted to me. Of course he said this in the least compassionate and caring way possible, some version of 'you know I'm not going to have sex with you' and when I asked if it was because I just didn't do it for him he said 'basically yeah' after which I left and had a big weep at home because, well, rejection and the miscommunication from him, and also I'm a big emotional sook and have a lot of feelings which is maybe why I enjoy turning them off with these guys. I wrote him a message basically saying his acting like he was sexually interested in me when he actually wasn't hurt me and I hoped he wouldn't act that way with someone again + I'd need time to think about a friendship. It's two days later, he's seen the message but not replied.
This is finally the meat of the question - do I continue a friendship with him despite his lack of basic communication skills and emotional intelligence? I feel so amazing and like the most fun version of myself when I'm with him, it makes me teary thinking about letting that go. And then what if I can only feel this way with people who are a bit screwed up, because the feeling is the feeling of extreme freedom that only exists when there are no boundaries and anything goes? Maybe I just have to be a big girl and prioritise my emotional wellbeing and foundations of self respect over having a good time? Is there a way for me to have both? I realise this is a lot of overlapping and diffuse and big questions, so really I would just appreciate any thoughts or similar experiences people have had.
Jesus, no, don't be friends with either of these guys. Look, asshole guys are a dime a dozen; you don't need to have any particular damage or history to stumble on two in a row. Also, you've had two amazing crushes in one year, so here's guessing if you drop this current fool someone new and shiny will show up in the next 6 months or so.
There's no reason you can't hold out for someone who both treats you decently and makes you feel like there are no limits and everything is possible. These are not mutually exclusive things. Maybe be available for that person when they come along.
posted by shadygrove at 5:41 AM on October 26, 2021 [34 favorites]
There's no reason you can't hold out for someone who both treats you decently and makes you feel like there are no limits and everything is possible. These are not mutually exclusive things. Maybe be available for that person when they come along.
posted by shadygrove at 5:41 AM on October 26, 2021 [34 favorites]
You're conflating "friendship" with "dating relationship" here and I'm not sure you're aware you're doing it. I have fun friendships with people I can talk for hours with, sure. Some of them are emotionally intimate relationships, some of them aren't. Nearly all of them are not romantic or sexual relationships. (I did marry one of them.) You can be friends with people you don't date!
You can't, however, date people you aren't friends with. (I mean, you can, but that tends not to end well for anyone.) And if you start out thinking it's going to be that kind of relationship ("no sex except him doing things to me" is not really "no sex" in my book) then yeah, the transition to only friends is going to be a little rough and not necessarily possible for both of you.
So you might think about ways to make friends with whom you feel like you're having fun and being open and spontaneous but do not have any plans or desire to turn it romantic or sexual. That is an important boundary to have! It's much easier to have a rich and fulfulling social life if you can surround yourself with people who you feel good with who don't have that perpetual relationship-escalator question attached. This is definitely something to bring up with your therapist, honestly.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:53 AM on October 26, 2021 [27 favorites]
You can't, however, date people you aren't friends with. (I mean, you can, but that tends not to end well for anyone.) And if you start out thinking it's going to be that kind of relationship ("no sex except him doing things to me" is not really "no sex" in my book) then yeah, the transition to only friends is going to be a little rough and not necessarily possible for both of you.
So you might think about ways to make friends with whom you feel like you're having fun and being open and spontaneous but do not have any plans or desire to turn it romantic or sexual. That is an important boundary to have! It's much easier to have a rich and fulfulling social life if you can surround yourself with people who you feel good with who don't have that perpetual relationship-escalator question attached. This is definitely something to bring up with your therapist, honestly.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:53 AM on October 26, 2021 [27 favorites]
The second guy seems not only like an ass but like he intentionally hurt you for the fun of it. I wasn't there but think on that. I can pardon ineptitude and overlook some poor manners. But not cruelty. I'd get away bc I think he'll hurt you again as bad or worse. And at some point it doesn't even matter if it's intentional or not.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:55 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:55 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
There is a lot in the framing of your question that is a bit confusing - you use the term boundaries a lot, without ever defining what this means to you, or what your boundaries are - it's not clear how your relationship with either man had no boundaries - because you were so swept up by these men that you ignored your own boundaries?
I have had some fun friendships with emotionally stunted men, but no doubt these men would have been terrible people to get romantically involved with - that didn't negate the fact that we clicked personality wise. But this current guy you describe has already cruelly led you on and then callously rejected you - whether you can move on from that without feeling bad is up to you (like metasarah suggests above) - I'd at least give it time. But the larger point is that hopefully you will now be able to identify such emotionally stunted men faster in the future (because they truly abound in your age-range), and you'll avoid situations like this in the future by making clear you just want friendship from them.
is the feeling of extreme freedom that only exists when there are no boundaries and anything goes?
Are you just describing NRE (New Relationship Energy)? Because I think generally when people experience crushes, there is a sense of freedom and openness, which is of course exciting! Nothing wrong with that - but if you are feeling free and open with an asshole (like these two guys) it generally doesn't end well. Feeling free and open with people who aren't assholes is pretty lovely, would recommend.
posted by coffeecat at 5:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have had some fun friendships with emotionally stunted men, but no doubt these men would have been terrible people to get romantically involved with - that didn't negate the fact that we clicked personality wise. But this current guy you describe has already cruelly led you on and then callously rejected you - whether you can move on from that without feeling bad is up to you (like metasarah suggests above) - I'd at least give it time. But the larger point is that hopefully you will now be able to identify such emotionally stunted men faster in the future (because they truly abound in your age-range), and you'll avoid situations like this in the future by making clear you just want friendship from them.
is the feeling of extreme freedom that only exists when there are no boundaries and anything goes?
Are you just describing NRE (New Relationship Energy)? Because I think generally when people experience crushes, there is a sense of freedom and openness, which is of course exciting! Nothing wrong with that - but if you are feeling free and open with an asshole (like these two guys) it generally doesn't end well. Feeling free and open with people who aren't assholes is pretty lovely, would recommend.
posted by coffeecat at 5:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
who knows when I'll experience this kind of forget-everything fun again - part of me says, maybe never because maybe it's specifically emotional 6 year olds I connect with in this way?
Oh my goodness, you're twenty five and this has all happened in six months, after a 2 year pandemic disrupted the world and literally made 99% of human beings fully mentally unwell. PATIENCE, my dear. At 25 you will not believe me how fucking goddamn long life is.
You're not turning your feelings off with these men, or you wouldn't be having "the feeling of extreme freedom" and "schoolgirl crushes" and you wouldn't be hurt. You're just telling yourself you're turning the feelings off because that's the only way you can allow yourself to stay in these idiots' orbits.
It's a Metafilter cliche, but this is what your therapy sessions are for. A good therapist will challenge your assumptions and your cause-and-effect in stuff like this; they'll push back when you say you're "turning off your feelings" when in fact you are "a big emotional sook and have a lot of feelings." If you've been focusing exclusively on your mother maybe open the sessions up to the rest of your emotional connections.
Some of us are drawn to a more playfully combative, joking, teasing kind of dynamic and that is OK, I mean, that's why The Philadelphia Story is such a great movie. But the thing is, the failure mode of funny is asshole. So if this is what you're into (which is fine! I'm into it too!) you're going to run into a lot of assholes.
But critically! Not 100% assholes. It's just that at 25 most people still suck a lot at knowing themselves or knowing how to be with others, and even the unfunny drips are still assholes mostly. As people get older and wiser you will find more partners whose honesty and openness doesn't mean being needlessly cruel.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 AM on October 26, 2021 [27 favorites]
Oh my goodness, you're twenty five and this has all happened in six months, after a 2 year pandemic disrupted the world and literally made 99% of human beings fully mentally unwell. PATIENCE, my dear. At 25 you will not believe me how fucking goddamn long life is.
You're not turning your feelings off with these men, or you wouldn't be having "the feeling of extreme freedom" and "schoolgirl crushes" and you wouldn't be hurt. You're just telling yourself you're turning the feelings off because that's the only way you can allow yourself to stay in these idiots' orbits.
It's a Metafilter cliche, but this is what your therapy sessions are for. A good therapist will challenge your assumptions and your cause-and-effect in stuff like this; they'll push back when you say you're "turning off your feelings" when in fact you are "a big emotional sook and have a lot of feelings." If you've been focusing exclusively on your mother maybe open the sessions up to the rest of your emotional connections.
Some of us are drawn to a more playfully combative, joking, teasing kind of dynamic and that is OK, I mean, that's why The Philadelphia Story is such a great movie. But the thing is, the failure mode of funny is asshole. So if this is what you're into (which is fine! I'm into it too!) you're going to run into a lot of assholes.
But critically! Not 100% assholes. It's just that at 25 most people still suck a lot at knowing themselves or knowing how to be with others, and even the unfunny drips are still assholes mostly. As people get older and wiser you will find more partners whose honesty and openness doesn't mean being needlessly cruel.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 AM on October 26, 2021 [27 favorites]
Your description reminds me powerfully of the kind of relationship that's attractive if you come from a dysfunctional home. (Ask me how I know.) It's the same reason alcoholics and addicts tend to be really fun and glamorous, at least early on. There is usually at least a little something addictive or at least codependent in the relationship, and people who do this in a serial way can usually recognize people who will be susceptible to it. They are not necessarily setting out to con you or victimize you; they may just be somewhat damaged people and they don't know any better than to relate to you this way. And I'm not saying that you are dysfunctional, not in the least. People like this exert a real magnetism. But I think at a certain point it's more trouble than it's worth, and you are starting to see that.
posted by BibiRose at 6:50 AM on October 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:50 AM on October 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
The only reason you want to be "friends" with these guys is that you're romantically interested in them. You don't have a special, magical, once in a lifetime connection with these guys. You have a crush, and with that comes some pretty intense rose-colored glasses (I know you think you see their flaws, but the second guy is a jerk, not someone who "sucks at feelings.") I've been there, so no judgment from me, but remember this is a chemical thing your brain is doing (limerence) and that's it.
On that note it seems like neither of these guys have trouble communicating.
The first guy told you his girlfriend was "open to" an open relationship because he wanted the fun of being flirty with you--he knew they weren't in an open relationship, even if they were discussing it. He communicated exactly what he wanted to. Then he realized his relationship with you had gotten to the point of an emotional affair, and did the right thing by cutting off his relationship with you. It's not a sign of immaturity or some other flaw that he's "not ready" to resume being friends with you. He's probably putting it that way to spare your feelings a bit. (Or he's kidding himself a bit--but not as much as you're kidding yourself on this.) If he values his relationship with his committed partner, he should never resume being friends with you. You're the other woman here.
The second guy, again, communicated exactly what he wanted to. He wanted you to know he didn't want a relationship up front--done. He wanted to make you feel like shit, by phrasing it in a jerky way, and later telling you he wasn't attracted to you. (He obviously is attracted to you if he hooked up with you, but apparently he gets more enjoyment out of jerking you around than he thinks he would get out of a mutually respectful FWB situation. He really likes dangling the carrot in front of your face and then seeing you get upset when he takes it away.)
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:16 AM on October 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
On that note it seems like neither of these guys have trouble communicating.
The first guy told you his girlfriend was "open to" an open relationship because he wanted the fun of being flirty with you--he knew they weren't in an open relationship, even if they were discussing it. He communicated exactly what he wanted to. Then he realized his relationship with you had gotten to the point of an emotional affair, and did the right thing by cutting off his relationship with you. It's not a sign of immaturity or some other flaw that he's "not ready" to resume being friends with you. He's probably putting it that way to spare your feelings a bit. (Or he's kidding himself a bit--but not as much as you're kidding yourself on this.) If he values his relationship with his committed partner, he should never resume being friends with you. You're the other woman here.
The second guy, again, communicated exactly what he wanted to. He wanted you to know he didn't want a relationship up front--done. He wanted to make you feel like shit, by phrasing it in a jerky way, and later telling you he wasn't attracted to you. (He obviously is attracted to you if he hooked up with you, but apparently he gets more enjoyment out of jerking you around than he thinks he would get out of a mutually respectful FWB situation. He really likes dangling the carrot in front of your face and then seeing you get upset when he takes it away.)
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:16 AM on October 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
I feel so amazing and like the most fun version of myself when I'm with him
That you realize this is a good sign, and lovely to see, because I think you understand that this situation is touching on something which is ultimately most about you; these jerk-style dudes just happen to fall into the open role in which you cast certain people to meet this desire for being the "most fun version" of yourself. It might be worth exploring with your therapist what else "most fun" could mean, because there might be a lot more to it than just "fun," like just to speculate e.g. is it also the part of yourself that you can actually like, or love? The implication here would then be exploring this part of yourself, and other avenues to connect with, live as, become more of, this aspect of yourself, which if successful, would make situations with guys like this far less emotionally fraught.
posted by obliterati at 7:51 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
That you realize this is a good sign, and lovely to see, because I think you understand that this situation is touching on something which is ultimately most about you; these jerk-style dudes just happen to fall into the open role in which you cast certain people to meet this desire for being the "most fun version" of yourself. It might be worth exploring with your therapist what else "most fun" could mean, because there might be a lot more to it than just "fun," like just to speculate e.g. is it also the part of yourself that you can actually like, or love? The implication here would then be exploring this part of yourself, and other avenues to connect with, live as, become more of, this aspect of yourself, which if successful, would make situations with guys like this far less emotionally fraught.
posted by obliterati at 7:51 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Hey look, in my early 20s I spent a bunch of time not dating exclusively, and I went about it a lot like it sounds you are. I dated dudes who were assholes, exclusively, and basically it was a way to hold myself separate from them. They weren't MY problem, we were just fucking. It was fine.
I'm not here to tell you to stop seeking out the jerks. I had a lot of fun with the ones I knew. But eventually I started to also feel like a jerk. The reasonable dudes I got with during this period (and there were one or two, shockingly) were hurt by me, one way or another. I didn't salvage friendships out of the messes I made. And I got hurt, and felt like I had no standing to complain, because we were just fucking, and I was fine.
I met someone who was kind at a moment when I needed kindness, and it changed things for me. I'm not sure whether I would have been okay, otherwise. It took conscious effort to relax and let that person get close to me, and it took work to begin to learn to be kind to them. It's been a long series of moments in which I kept saying yes to them (lol 21 years, who would have thought).
I trust your ability to to decide whether you are done seeking out the fun guys. You are the boss of when you are done with these moments where you feel hurt, or tricked. And the only good thing about doing it this way is that they have no standing to complain when you walk away.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:53 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not here to tell you to stop seeking out the jerks. I had a lot of fun with the ones I knew. But eventually I started to also feel like a jerk. The reasonable dudes I got with during this period (and there were one or two, shockingly) were hurt by me, one way or another. I didn't salvage friendships out of the messes I made. And I got hurt, and felt like I had no standing to complain, because we were just fucking, and I was fine.
I met someone who was kind at a moment when I needed kindness, and it changed things for me. I'm not sure whether I would have been okay, otherwise. It took conscious effort to relax and let that person get close to me, and it took work to begin to learn to be kind to them. It's been a long series of moments in which I kept saying yes to them (lol 21 years, who would have thought).
I trust your ability to to decide whether you are done seeking out the fun guys. You are the boss of when you are done with these moments where you feel hurt, or tricked. And the only good thing about doing it this way is that they have no standing to complain when you walk away.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:53 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I may just not be using the words the same way, but it seems incongruous for you to, in the same breath, say that you want people to not ride over your boundaries but then celebrate "saying and doing outrageous things." I guess to me, "outrageous things" are almost definitionally boundary-crossing (if not my own boundaries, then some other boundary). My experience is that people who revel in crossing boundaries in one area are much likely to do it in other areas too. So I am not sure that "outrageous things" and respecting boundaries are compatible in general.
posted by primethyme at 7:59 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 7:59 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
(This didn't involve anything physical, except for some leg touching that definitely pushed the boundaries and that I regret engaging in).
(no sex except him doing things to me)
You're not seeking friendship with these guys, you're seeking a relationship. Which is fine, you know? You know you're allowed to want to have intimate relationships, right? But you're not going to get it from either of these particular guys. One of them realized he was cheating and responsibly stopped hanging out with you, the other one is just an asshole.
Right now, you seem to be running the absolute worst combination of "cool girl" and "sexually passive OOPS look what kind of just happened" strategies, and that is a recipe for disaster. You're going to hook up with men who aren't good to or for you and you're not even going to have the kind of sex you want, just the kind that sorta kinda happens according to their whims. That is actually not going to be fun for you, and you can have fun crushes and dizzying flirtations and impulsive sex and actual full-blown relationships without doing this. I swear!
(I'm not going to read you a lecture on morality, but I do think 25 is old enough--within the context of your partners respecting consensuality, of course, which is a huge caveat in this culture, but doesn't seem to be in play here--to only be having sex you can take responsibility for having had afterwards. I don't mean you have to have waited for The One or waited [x] amount of dates; I mean you should be able to say afterwards, "yeah, as a grown woman, I decided to do that.")
posted by praemunire at 8:11 AM on October 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
(no sex except him doing things to me)
You're not seeking friendship with these guys, you're seeking a relationship. Which is fine, you know? You know you're allowed to want to have intimate relationships, right? But you're not going to get it from either of these particular guys. One of them realized he was cheating and responsibly stopped hanging out with you, the other one is just an asshole.
Right now, you seem to be running the absolute worst combination of "cool girl" and "sexually passive OOPS look what kind of just happened" strategies, and that is a recipe for disaster. You're going to hook up with men who aren't good to or for you and you're not even going to have the kind of sex you want, just the kind that sorta kinda happens according to their whims. That is actually not going to be fun for you, and you can have fun crushes and dizzying flirtations and impulsive sex and actual full-blown relationships without doing this. I swear!
(I'm not going to read you a lecture on morality, but I do think 25 is old enough--within the context of your partners respecting consensuality, of course, which is a huge caveat in this culture, but doesn't seem to be in play here--to only be having sex you can take responsibility for having had afterwards. I don't mean you have to have waited for The One or waited [x] amount of dates; I mean you should be able to say afterwards, "yeah, as a grown woman, I decided to do that.")
posted by praemunire at 8:11 AM on October 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
*sigh*
This question is very hard for me to read because one of the most difficult and heartbreaking experiences of my life involved stepping away from one of these people and exactly the kind of connection you're describing. I didn't want to do it, but I had to, for my own sanity and wellbeing. I still miss it, and him, and I probably will forever because when it was good, it was SO GOOD OMG. He made me feel like the best, brightest, sparkliest version of myself in a way no one ever had before. We had so much freaking fun. And yet... over time, the flip side of our dynamic came at a massive emotional cost, with so many issues that I let drag out forever because it made me so incredibly sad to even contemplate voluntarily severing from the many good and fun parts. A lack of basic communication skills, a lack of respect for my time, little to no emotional intelligence, so much flirty or relationship ladder talk followed by either withdrawal or cruelty when I reciprocated, an interaction style that was inherently imbalanced and always on his terms. None of that is what true friendship actually looks like. This person was never actually my friend, despite having known him for several years (!).
The really sad and unfortunate thing about establishing your boundaries and requirements for fair treatment with people like this is what's going to happen when you finally do: you likely won't be able to keep the good parts. Instead you should be prepared for people like this to react badly or (worse and far more likely, IMO) start avoiding you completely. If you ask for what you want directly, fail to comply with the easygoing flow you have going, stop mirroring them in the same enthusiastic way, I think you know what will happen. You've already seen it with him leaving you on read when you called out his behavior. And it sucks so much and is so very hurtful.
People are commenting on the tendency for this to happen more in your age bracket, which I do think is true for many reasons, but mine happened when both of us were in our late 30s and I was and still am shocked by how much it undid me, so don't please don't underestimate the massive effect that people like this can have on you, or beat yourself up for having trouble separating from it. But I would hate for you to feel like this is a binary situation, that emotional wellbeing and foundations of self-respect can't coexist with having a good time, when truly both of things should be the minimum viable product for any halfway decent relationship, either friendly or romantic.
posted by anderjen at 10:15 AM on October 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
This question is very hard for me to read because one of the most difficult and heartbreaking experiences of my life involved stepping away from one of these people and exactly the kind of connection you're describing. I didn't want to do it, but I had to, for my own sanity and wellbeing. I still miss it, and him, and I probably will forever because when it was good, it was SO GOOD OMG. He made me feel like the best, brightest, sparkliest version of myself in a way no one ever had before. We had so much freaking fun. And yet... over time, the flip side of our dynamic came at a massive emotional cost, with so many issues that I let drag out forever because it made me so incredibly sad to even contemplate voluntarily severing from the many good and fun parts. A lack of basic communication skills, a lack of respect for my time, little to no emotional intelligence, so much flirty or relationship ladder talk followed by either withdrawal or cruelty when I reciprocated, an interaction style that was inherently imbalanced and always on his terms. None of that is what true friendship actually looks like. This person was never actually my friend, despite having known him for several years (!).
The really sad and unfortunate thing about establishing your boundaries and requirements for fair treatment with people like this is what's going to happen when you finally do: you likely won't be able to keep the good parts. Instead you should be prepared for people like this to react badly or (worse and far more likely, IMO) start avoiding you completely. If you ask for what you want directly, fail to comply with the easygoing flow you have going, stop mirroring them in the same enthusiastic way, I think you know what will happen. You've already seen it with him leaving you on read when you called out his behavior. And it sucks so much and is so very hurtful.
People are commenting on the tendency for this to happen more in your age bracket, which I do think is true for many reasons, but mine happened when both of us were in our late 30s and I was and still am shocked by how much it undid me, so don't please don't underestimate the massive effect that people like this can have on you, or beat yourself up for having trouble separating from it. But I would hate for you to feel like this is a binary situation, that emotional wellbeing and foundations of self-respect can't coexist with having a good time, when truly both of things should be the minimum viable product for any halfway decent relationship, either friendly or romantic.
posted by anderjen at 10:15 AM on October 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
Congratulations, you are in the developmental phase known colloquially as "crushing on/dating assholes." I hope that doesn't sound condescending, and I don't think this will or should make it hurt any less. But truly, most of us have been there, and I really do believe it's an important developmental milestone for many of us. And you are right on time, your twenties are a solid time to do this. It doesn't mean you're broken, or doomed to never have fun again! It just means you met some charismatic, fun assholes, and then they hurt you, as assholes will.
Definitely talk with your therapist about all of this. Try not to beat yourself up too much about your feelings. Try to appreciate what you've learned about yourself through this - one possible thing is that you don't necessarily feel like you can always be yourself with friends and loved ones, and it feels really good when you meet someone where you DO feel like you can be yourself. Maybe try to figure out if you really do need to keep yourself under wraps with your loved ones and/or think about whether or not you can find people who give you that sense of being yourself WITHOUT the asshole-ness.
posted by lunasol at 11:44 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Definitely talk with your therapist about all of this. Try not to beat yourself up too much about your feelings. Try to appreciate what you've learned about yourself through this - one possible thing is that you don't necessarily feel like you can always be yourself with friends and loved ones, and it feels really good when you meet someone where you DO feel like you can be yourself. Maybe try to figure out if you really do need to keep yourself under wraps with your loved ones and/or think about whether or not you can find people who give you that sense of being yourself WITHOUT the asshole-ness.
posted by lunasol at 11:44 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I just want to reassure you that there are people out there who will give you that "free and alive" feeling without treating you like shit. I didn't always believe this. I thought the choice was between "exciting and mean" or "boring and kind." But as I've gotten older and continued to meet people, I've discovered that there are many people in this world who are both exciting and kind.
posted by Mender at 2:01 PM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Mender at 2:01 PM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Assholes look more exciting because they will tell you whatever to make you react the way they want. They can always spin the story that matches your story and set the mood that matches your mood. When you're with a guy who's being his authentic self and not trying to scam you in some way, the mesh won't always be perfect, because it'll be a real person there.
posted by Lady Li at 12:17 AM on October 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Lady Li at 12:17 AM on October 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
(you can still have an amazing time meshing with real, present, authentic people. But it'll happen only when they're a real match, and the thing to remember is your pool has two groups in it: "people I truly have amazing rare synergy with" and "people who will lie to get me to respond the way they want")
posted by Lady Li at 12:22 AM on October 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Lady Li at 12:22 AM on October 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
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I personally would not have been able to do this when I was 25; it's easier now that I'm older and more jaded.
If you can't muster enough remove to keep from being hurt by their $&@#, cut them off.
If they take up too much space in your life so you don't build and maintain your healthier connections, cut them off.
If their energy starts to turn you into something you don't want to be, cut them off.
posted by metasarah at 5:16 AM on October 26, 2021 [14 favorites]