Money & equity in (my) life partnership...
August 3, 2021 6:18 AM Subscribe
I have been with my partner for almost five years. We have a two-year-old and are due with our second child in December. I’m struggling with our financial arrangement altogether, and with inequities in our division of childcare and housework. I see some risk in confusing these questions by asking them in the same post, though they’re very connected.
• He’s 51 and I’m 41. Partner is self-employed and is very well-established in his career. When we met, I was earning roughly 60% (maybe 70%) of what he earned. We both have reasonable savings/investments, though his are greater. I’m likely to inherit more from my parent than he from his, but that’s not a sure thing and we’re not talking game-changing inheritances. No debt on either side.
• I was laid off a year ago and am collecting unemployment due to expire in Sept. I anticipate that I will take home more like 40% of what my partner earns at my next full-time gig based on my interviews to date.
• All of our assets are willed to one another when we die. We share common expenses (rent, childcare, groceries, household), but otherwise manage our money separately.
• We are not married. I would like to be, but my partner has been married twice before and doesn’t want to marry again.
• He wanted kids for much of his adult life, but the time I met him he was ambivalent and so largely decided to become a parent in order not to lose me (I was prepared to have a child on my own if not with him). We struck a deal and I agreed to do more childcare for baby #1 (ratios and details not discussed at the time). My partner was also very clear that he didn’t want to single-handedly finance a family nor work more in general.
• Partner wanted a second child as much if not more than me. I’m no longer cool with our agreement that I do “more” once the second kid arrives, and I’ve done a lot more over the past two years than I imagined I would when I first agreed to this unequal arrangement.
• He’s not currently open to couples counseling (we’ve tried before though I personally think we’ve barely scratched the surface on money stuff), nor is he open to contributing to shared expenses proportional to our respective incomes.
• He is open to other proposals including one-off lump sum payments to me, but I’m struggling to come up with isolated concrete requests and would really like to have some established “operating principles” in place so that we don’t have to continually negotiate and revisit this.
• Partner and I generally both feel hurt and wary of one another when we discuss money. He’s generally of the looser “you can trust me”, “don’t worry about it”, “we are one another’s back-stops” and “I won’t let you go without” mindset. While I trust his good intent, so long as we manage our finances separately, I don’t feel safe or secure without more concrete agreements.
• Nor do I feel it’s fair that either one of us should exclusively pay for pregnancy or childcare-related loss of income (i.e. if I’m not employed by the time I’m 7 months pregnant or so, I’ll likely have zero income until the baby is in daycare many months later).
• In addition to overarching agreements about our shared financial life, I’ve also considered suggesting a system to compensate for imbalances in our daily load of childcare. If I routinely do more childcare (say 15 hours more a week), does my partner pay me for this time and if so, a babysitter’s rate? In general, my partner prefers to hire extra help once he’s maxed out whereas I don’t like hiring sitters as much, but I am not content to absorb his slack.
• Projecting to future scenarios where we’d qualify for financial assistance (i.e. aid for a pre-K program for the kids) based on my income but disqualify based on my partner’s. Then what?
• I love the idea of a relationship that is not so transactional, but equity is a deeply held value of mine, and I don’t want to naively leave myself unprepared for expenses we bear individually or unprotected in the case of separation.
Like I said, multi-part question. I’d be glad for suggestions on any and all of it. This has become a sort of third rail issue for us and I’m often repressing a lot of frustration and worry that converts to resentment. Ps, do I hire my own financial planner?
• He’s 51 and I’m 41. Partner is self-employed and is very well-established in his career. When we met, I was earning roughly 60% (maybe 70%) of what he earned. We both have reasonable savings/investments, though his are greater. I’m likely to inherit more from my parent than he from his, but that’s not a sure thing and we’re not talking game-changing inheritances. No debt on either side.
• I was laid off a year ago and am collecting unemployment due to expire in Sept. I anticipate that I will take home more like 40% of what my partner earns at my next full-time gig based on my interviews to date.
• All of our assets are willed to one another when we die. We share common expenses (rent, childcare, groceries, household), but otherwise manage our money separately.
• We are not married. I would like to be, but my partner has been married twice before and doesn’t want to marry again.
• He wanted kids for much of his adult life, but the time I met him he was ambivalent and so largely decided to become a parent in order not to lose me (I was prepared to have a child on my own if not with him). We struck a deal and I agreed to do more childcare for baby #1 (ratios and details not discussed at the time). My partner was also very clear that he didn’t want to single-handedly finance a family nor work more in general.
• Partner wanted a second child as much if not more than me. I’m no longer cool with our agreement that I do “more” once the second kid arrives, and I’ve done a lot more over the past two years than I imagined I would when I first agreed to this unequal arrangement.
• He’s not currently open to couples counseling (we’ve tried before though I personally think we’ve barely scratched the surface on money stuff), nor is he open to contributing to shared expenses proportional to our respective incomes.
• He is open to other proposals including one-off lump sum payments to me, but I’m struggling to come up with isolated concrete requests and would really like to have some established “operating principles” in place so that we don’t have to continually negotiate and revisit this.
• Partner and I generally both feel hurt and wary of one another when we discuss money. He’s generally of the looser “you can trust me”, “don’t worry about it”, “we are one another’s back-stops” and “I won’t let you go without” mindset. While I trust his good intent, so long as we manage our finances separately, I don’t feel safe or secure without more concrete agreements.
• Nor do I feel it’s fair that either one of us should exclusively pay for pregnancy or childcare-related loss of income (i.e. if I’m not employed by the time I’m 7 months pregnant or so, I’ll likely have zero income until the baby is in daycare many months later).
• In addition to overarching agreements about our shared financial life, I’ve also considered suggesting a system to compensate for imbalances in our daily load of childcare. If I routinely do more childcare (say 15 hours more a week), does my partner pay me for this time and if so, a babysitter’s rate? In general, my partner prefers to hire extra help once he’s maxed out whereas I don’t like hiring sitters as much, but I am not content to absorb his slack.
• Projecting to future scenarios where we’d qualify for financial assistance (i.e. aid for a pre-K program for the kids) based on my income but disqualify based on my partner’s. Then what?
• I love the idea of a relationship that is not so transactional, but equity is a deeply held value of mine, and I don’t want to naively leave myself unprepared for expenses we bear individually or unprotected in the case of separation.
Like I said, multi-part question. I’d be glad for suggestions on any and all of it. This has become a sort of third rail issue for us and I’m often repressing a lot of frustration and worry that converts to resentment. Ps, do I hire my own financial planner?
Look at the child support calculator for your state. Here's the one for MA. It should give you a baseline for "equitable" in many of the various scenarios you describe.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:48 AM on August 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 6:48 AM on August 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
My advice is going to sound very small and like not enough because it feels like you all have arrived at an arrangement that is in no way sustainable let alone (obviously) equitable. And I don’t think you’ve arranged anything really. You both sort of agreed to what was a thought experiment pre-baby and come to find out that what you thought would be do-able or made sense actually was none of those things.
So, yes, financial planning help. You both need to hear from a third party what they consider reasonable financial planning for a family of four. It’s not what you all are doing.
And yes to childcare and housecleaning. I’m not sure what you mean about childcare of 15 hours per week? The last I checked, childcare needs are like eleventy-billion hours per week.
Does he also want a wife? One of the hardest things in my relationship this past pandemic year has been all my jobs: paid work, parenting, teacher’s aid to online learning, and wife. Oh and keeping myself from going off the rails. That’s a lot of pieces to slice and dice. And if only I were a robot…. I digress.
If he wants a wife, he’ll need to do something different. Right? Eventually, if you are going to be together for long, counseling is probably your only hope to make sense of this man and this relationship.
posted by amanda at 6:52 AM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
So, yes, financial planning help. You both need to hear from a third party what they consider reasonable financial planning for a family of four. It’s not what you all are doing.
And yes to childcare and housecleaning. I’m not sure what you mean about childcare of 15 hours per week? The last I checked, childcare needs are like eleventy-billion hours per week.
Does he also want a wife? One of the hardest things in my relationship this past pandemic year has been all my jobs: paid work, parenting, teacher’s aid to online learning, and wife. Oh and keeping myself from going off the rails. That’s a lot of pieces to slice and dice. And if only I were a robot…. I digress.
If he wants a wife, he’ll need to do something different. Right? Eventually, if you are going to be together for long, counseling is probably your only hope to make sense of this man and this relationship.
posted by amanda at 6:52 AM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
It sounds like the finances thing is just getting in the way, and causing conflict that's more about different attitudes towards money than it is about equity or trust. Maybe it's a proxy for other issues - I can't tell.
My wife and I have a joint account, separate from our individual bank accounts. We worked out how much our household budget should be, and decided to pay the appropriate percentage of each of our earnings into that account, automatically every month. Since I earn more than three times what my wife does, that means I pay a much larger part, although it's the same percentage of what I earn. You could tweak this with things like an earnings threshold under which you don't contribute (which might help during unemployment) and decide whether things like holidays, shared entertainment etc. go on the joint account. It works to the extent that we almost never argue about money.
You could present this not as an issue of trust, but just as something you'd like to do so you don't need to talk about it any more.
posted by pipeski at 6:54 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
My wife and I have a joint account, separate from our individual bank accounts. We worked out how much our household budget should be, and decided to pay the appropriate percentage of each of our earnings into that account, automatically every month. Since I earn more than three times what my wife does, that means I pay a much larger part, although it's the same percentage of what I earn. You could tweak this with things like an earnings threshold under which you don't contribute (which might help during unemployment) and decide whether things like holidays, shared entertainment etc. go on the joint account. It works to the extent that we almost never argue about money.
You could present this not as an issue of trust, but just as something you'd like to do so you don't need to talk about it any more.
posted by pipeski at 6:54 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I love the idea of a relationship that is not so transactional, but equity is a deeply held value of mine, and I don’t want to naively leave myself unprepared for expenses we bear individually or unprotected in the case of separation.
I’m often repressing a lot of frustration and worry that converts to resentment.
I feel compelled to say that you have every reason and right to value equity and feel very vulnerable in your situation. Please don't let yourself be convinced that this means you are not being easy-breezy-beautiful enough about how actually transactional any relationship is whether people acknowledge that fact or not.
You deserve to feel safe and secure in your relationship. I don't think you should be repressing your frustration and worry. I hope you can talk to someone about it and I really hope that your husband can start to step up and be that person. If he can't do that, you may want to find another person who can support you through this tough stuff.
Good luck, I wish I had more answers.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 7:03 AM on August 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
I’m often repressing a lot of frustration and worry that converts to resentment.
I feel compelled to say that you have every reason and right to value equity and feel very vulnerable in your situation. Please don't let yourself be convinced that this means you are not being easy-breezy-beautiful enough about how actually transactional any relationship is whether people acknowledge that fact or not.
You deserve to feel safe and secure in your relationship. I don't think you should be repressing your frustration and worry. I hope you can talk to someone about it and I really hope that your husband can start to step up and be that person. If he can't do that, you may want to find another person who can support you through this tough stuff.
Good luck, I wish I had more answers.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 7:03 AM on August 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
Eh, I wish I had a had a solution but all I can do is empathise and validate your concerns. This would make me nervous as well: you don't have the financial benefits of marriage if you were to split up, are doing the bulk of the childcare, currently have no income, will likely have significantly less than him when you do, and he isn't open to counselling? Yeah, no. IMHO, people change, circumstances change, so even with the absolute very best of the intentions "trust me" is not good enough.
posted by cultureclash82 at 7:07 AM on August 3, 2021 [65 favorites]
posted by cultureclash82 at 7:07 AM on August 3, 2021 [65 favorites]
There is a common arrangement where his "I won't let you go without" mindset is backed up by social and legal expectations. It's called marriage. If he's not willing to get married, then he needs to be willing to work something out with you.
posted by ewok_academy at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2021 [90 favorites]
posted by ewok_academy at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2021 [90 favorites]
It seems like one solution would be to pool at least some portion of your assets - i.e., this idea that all of your money is separate is not really workable or fair, so why not take X% of what you both have and put both of your names on it? I think this would be better than him making payments to you, which only reinforces the idea of separateness, which seems incompatible with a long term relationship as a family.
posted by Mid at 7:26 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Mid at 7:26 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
A reality of long-term relationships is that you have to revisit the financial and personal arrangements once in a while because whatever sounded like a great idea when you were first moving in together doesn't necessarily still make sense years later when jobs have changed and maybe your physical/mental capabilities have changed or your house situation needs more upkeep, or whatever. That's true even without kids, I can't imagine how much more true it is with them. You are being completely reasonable to want to revisit how your family works in terms of both money and childcare.
I think he should be contributing financially in proportion to his income, and also doing more of the childcare than he is. But that's not going to happen tomorrow, given all this resistance on his end. So, a possibly silly question: you mention that he's open to hiring extra help, generally, but it seems like child-rearing issues are a lightning rod for bad feelings in your family. Long term that needs to get dealt with, but short term, are there other things he would more willingly throw money at that would ease your load? For example, if he won't directly pay for or help with childcare, would he hire a housecleaner or personal chef service or laundry service, or otherwise throw money at something other than childcare that's a burden for you? While you address the overall problem, maybe you could get some relief in some other parts of your life that way, that would help buy you some breathing room.
posted by Stacey at 7:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
I think he should be contributing financially in proportion to his income, and also doing more of the childcare than he is. But that's not going to happen tomorrow, given all this resistance on his end. So, a possibly silly question: you mention that he's open to hiring extra help, generally, but it seems like child-rearing issues are a lightning rod for bad feelings in your family. Long term that needs to get dealt with, but short term, are there other things he would more willingly throw money at that would ease your load? For example, if he won't directly pay for or help with childcare, would he hire a housecleaner or personal chef service or laundry service, or otherwise throw money at something other than childcare that's a burden for you? While you address the overall problem, maybe you could get some relief in some other parts of your life that way, that would help buy you some breathing room.
posted by Stacey at 7:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Dude. Are you saying that you and your partner currently share expenses 50-50, despite i) you making significantly less money, and being currently unemployed, and ii) you shouldering more of the burden than your partner when it comes to childcare and housework? And your partner is not "open to contributing to shared expenses proportional to our respective incomes."
That is not just. It just isn't. You are right to be unhappy.
When I was married, my partner and I split expenses proportionate to our incomes. We did it that way because that's what's fair. It meant that if one of us was super career focused and made a bunch of money, they would contribute more financially, which would be appropriate because being super career-focused = (among other things) less housework. And that larger contribution could be used for things like cleaners. It meant that if one of us sacrificed career success for the family, in whatever way, that person would be 'compensated' in the form of the other person making a bigger financial contribution. It meant that we would be compensating for sexism: like, if I made 70 cents for his dollar because the culture is sexist, we would not be perpetuating that sexism inside our own house. It meant that if we decided to have children, any career sacrifice related to that would be compensated for, with money. It made us a team: our successes and our struggles were shared. Oh and also the wealth we built was shared 50-50. Like the house was owned 50-50, and we contributed (proportionate to our income) to retirement savings that were actually owned 50-50.
My marriage ended, but that had nothing to do with money. We did the money thing right, and we always felt okay about how we handled it. It worked when he made more than me, and it worked when I made more than him.
I am so sorry that your partner isn't open to that, because it is the right answer. You are getting a raw deal. I don't think that lump sum payments or him paying you for childcare will work here. Doing stuff like that means you will be negotiating this forever. Contributing proportionate to your income is the right answer: it is simple and it is fair.
posted by Susan PG at 7:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [78 favorites]
That is not just. It just isn't. You are right to be unhappy.
When I was married, my partner and I split expenses proportionate to our incomes. We did it that way because that's what's fair. It meant that if one of us was super career focused and made a bunch of money, they would contribute more financially, which would be appropriate because being super career-focused = (among other things) less housework. And that larger contribution could be used for things like cleaners. It meant that if one of us sacrificed career success for the family, in whatever way, that person would be 'compensated' in the form of the other person making a bigger financial contribution. It meant that we would be compensating for sexism: like, if I made 70 cents for his dollar because the culture is sexist, we would not be perpetuating that sexism inside our own house. It meant that if we decided to have children, any career sacrifice related to that would be compensated for, with money. It made us a team: our successes and our struggles were shared. Oh and also the wealth we built was shared 50-50. Like the house was owned 50-50, and we contributed (proportionate to our income) to retirement savings that were actually owned 50-50.
My marriage ended, but that had nothing to do with money. We did the money thing right, and we always felt okay about how we handled it. It worked when he made more than me, and it worked when I made more than him.
I am so sorry that your partner isn't open to that, because it is the right answer. You are getting a raw deal. I don't think that lump sum payments or him paying you for childcare will work here. Doing stuff like that means you will be negotiating this forever. Contributing proportionate to your income is the right answer: it is simple and it is fair.
posted by Susan PG at 7:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [78 favorites]
To be honest this doesn't sound like a partnership to me. You said he's not open to counseling (sigh), but if you're not in therapy yourself, I suspect you should be if it's at all financially possible. From my point of view it sounds like everything in your lives revolves around what he wants and his convenience, so of course you're frustrated and worried.
posted by wintersweet at 7:35 AM on August 3, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 7:35 AM on August 3, 2021 [40 favorites]
Like, is it the current plan that you will continue to pay 50% of the expenses while you are not working and have zero income because of a baby you are having together? If so, that is ridiculous, and I am 100% outraged on your behalf.
posted by Susan PG at 7:38 AM on August 3, 2021 [69 favorites]
posted by Susan PG at 7:38 AM on August 3, 2021 [69 favorites]
By the way, when your partner says "trust me" and "I won't let you go without" my response would be: based on what exactly? It's not like he's got your back now with this shitty arrangement where he also happens to get to veto everything you want including marriage, counselling, and alterations to your financial structure that would make you feel more secure. But it'll get better if you separate? I don't follow.
posted by cultureclash82 at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by cultureclash82 at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2021 [40 favorites]
When I took time off work to do childcare and breastfeed our baby, for the first few months I did it “for free”. Then I started feeling exploited, so I worked out the cost of my solo childcare hours at minimum wage, plus an hour a day of housework, plus formula. It worked out to over $200 a day.
So I was giving our family over $1000/week of free, absolutely top quality, loving and nurturing labour.
I presented this to my partner whose jaw dropped. I pointed out that for that amount of money he wouldn’t even get a great nanny- in our area only teenagers do childcare for minimum wage.
He promptly started paying for every household expense, and also giving me a weekly “household allowance” (a jar of cash that he put about $60 a week into) to cover quick babysitter fees and a cleaner when I needed a break, plus a small “salary” just so I wouldn’t feel like I was cracking into my savings if I wanted to buy a muffin or take our kid to a drop in baby class for $20.
I didn’t need market rate on the “salary” but it was a few hundred bucks a month so I could like go out for lunch with a pal and not stress about the money at all. Plus I paid ZERO household expenses until I was back to work full time.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
So I was giving our family over $1000/week of free, absolutely top quality, loving and nurturing labour.
I presented this to my partner whose jaw dropped. I pointed out that for that amount of money he wouldn’t even get a great nanny- in our area only teenagers do childcare for minimum wage.
He promptly started paying for every household expense, and also giving me a weekly “household allowance” (a jar of cash that he put about $60 a week into) to cover quick babysitter fees and a cleaner when I needed a break, plus a small “salary” just so I wouldn’t feel like I was cracking into my savings if I wanted to buy a muffin or take our kid to a drop in baby class for $20.
I didn’t need market rate on the “salary” but it was a few hundred bucks a month so I could like go out for lunch with a pal and not stress about the money at all. Plus I paid ZERO household expenses until I was back to work full time.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
I am not qualified to tell you what is "fair" for your relationship. I do know that fair does not necessarily mean equal or the same. But, logically, if he is willing to pay an outsider to cover gaps in childcare, why would he not pay you? If you are doing 15 hours more, he should pay you for his 50% of that or whatever the rate is for 7.5 hours of work.
posted by AugustWest at 8:21 AM on August 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 8:21 AM on August 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
When anyone says “trust me”, they are telling you they are NOT trustworthy.
posted by dbiedny at 8:23 AM on August 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by dbiedny at 8:23 AM on August 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
Wow, what a terribly difficult situation.
I would absolutely seek a financial advisor's counsel, with or without him. I imagine a third party's input is going to be very necessary if you hope to the current status quo. Regarding one-off lump payments, I might use a child support calculator for your state as a basis for this, or the amount of money you're going to be saving on childcare until you're back to work, or preferably both.
With regard to changing the balance of childcare, that is going to be insanely challenging when you're this entrenched in old patterns. I was able to absorb doing the bulk of the care of one kid, but when our second came along, forget it. Two will break you, especially two under two. If he's happy to shell out for a sitter, would he pay for other household help or services so you can focus solely on the children? This might be manageable if you could reliably get every single other household obligation off your plate and fully paid for.
posted by anderjen at 8:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would absolutely seek a financial advisor's counsel, with or without him. I imagine a third party's input is going to be very necessary if you hope to the current status quo. Regarding one-off lump payments, I might use a child support calculator for your state as a basis for this, or the amount of money you're going to be saving on childcare until you're back to work, or preferably both.
With regard to changing the balance of childcare, that is going to be insanely challenging when you're this entrenched in old patterns. I was able to absorb doing the bulk of the care of one kid, but when our second came along, forget it. Two will break you, especially two under two. If he's happy to shell out for a sitter, would he pay for other household help or services so you can focus solely on the children? This might be manageable if you could reliably get every single other household obligation off your plate and fully paid for.
posted by anderjen at 8:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Partner and I generally both feel hurt and wary of one another when we discuss money. He’s generally of the looser “you can trust me”, “don’t worry about it”, “we are one another’s back-stops” and “I won’t let you go without” mindset. While I trust his good intent, so long as we manage our finances separately, I don’t feel safe or secure without more concrete agreements.
Doesn't mean shit. If you are not legally married, you cannot trust him, you do have to worry about it, you are not each other's backstops, and he most certainly would let you go without. The fact that he isn't willing to legally bind himself to this relationship puts his assertions as little more than sweet talk in order to get into your pants and get you to wash his dirty socks.
To put it bluntly, what's to stop your partner from leaving you and your kids right this second? "God, my partner keeps yapping about me doing more housework and giving her more money? Didn't I end two marriages over this bullshit? [fires up Tinder]" He walks out that door, what incentive does he have to give you one red cent?
posted by alidarbac at 8:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
Doesn't mean shit. If you are not legally married, you cannot trust him, you do have to worry about it, you are not each other's backstops, and he most certainly would let you go without. The fact that he isn't willing to legally bind himself to this relationship puts his assertions as little more than sweet talk in order to get into your pants and get you to wash his dirty socks.
To put it bluntly, what's to stop your partner from leaving you and your kids right this second? "God, my partner keeps yapping about me doing more housework and giving her more money? Didn't I end two marriages over this bullshit? [fires up Tinder]" He walks out that door, what incentive does he have to give you one red cent?
posted by alidarbac at 8:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
There is a rising trend in the feminist online community that addresses this kind of inequity. The obnoxiously named but bear with it please subreddit Female Dating Strategy has the primer. As with any online community there's plenty that's not so great, but the central tenet is clear: women have been perpetually and historically fucked over by the consequence of our reproductive anatomy/obligations and institutional sexism, so any heterosexual relationship, particularly one with children, based on "equality" is impossible, and will by default be worse for the woman.
The link I put is to the handbook where there are sections on motherhood and family finances. You may find value there.
Long story short your "partner" is a piece of shit and I'm angry for you.
posted by phunniemee at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
The link I put is to the handbook where there are sections on motherhood and family finances. You may find value there.
Long story short your "partner" is a piece of shit and I'm angry for you.
posted by phunniemee at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
I am about to become a surrogate. If I am successful, I will be paid cash money of $35k spread out as monthly installments over the course of my pregnancy, plus all my expenses related to pregnancy such as all my medical costs for the duration of pregnancy PLUS 1 full year after giving birth (which includes not only health insurance premiums and copays but also weekly visits to a therapist of my choice), a clothing allowance, gym membership, life insurance, disability insurance, a weekly house cleaner, a weekly yardwork helper during summer and fall, and even a food allowance.
Add up the dollar cost of everything I mentioned here. Then make your partner pay you his share, split according to your respective income (because that's the way child support works). That guarantees a *somewhat* equitable sharing of the costs of pregnancy on your life & body. To make it absolutely and completely fair to both of you, let's not devalue his contribution to this process... So add in the cost of a sperm sample and split that cost between you both as well (usually it runs to about $50 total).
Now let's move on to babycare, breastfeeding, and childcare. The assumption needs to be that once the baby is born, both of you are equally responsible for providing for the child's needs in proportion to your share of income. Each hour of being on "baby duty" can be assigned a monetary value, such as $15 an hour, and each day has a pot of 24 hours' worth of money that both of you contribute to, the percentage should be based on your income (again, since that's the way child support works). And then, at the end of the day, each hour of baby-duty gets paid out to whoever performed it. On-call hours are compensated the same as active-duty hours because that's the way being on-call works. Any shift exceeding 8 consecutive hours gets time-and-a-half. Adjust the daily pot accordingly.
Other activities to support babycare - such as time spent ordering diapers, time spent trying out nursing bras to find a good fit, time spent preparing special meals or food items such as blessed thistle tea for supporting breastmilk supply, etc. - should also be recorded and paid for at the rate you both have decided.
In reality this doesn't even come close to evening out the scales because you're not adding in opportunity costs, lost income, reduced retirement savings, etc. But start with this. Present your partner with this bill to equitably share the concrete costs of having a baby.
I suspect it will make him more amenable to the idea of couples' counseling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having finished with the facetious part of my comment, let me be serious:
> He’s not currently open to couples counseling
Listen. This is not an acceptable position for him to take. I'm not a fan of ultimatums at all, but this is one that I myself ended up giving my ex husband: go to counseling or we're done. What ended up happening in counseling (which, I suspect, is what my ex had been afraid of all along) was that the extreme unfairness of my ex's demands were laid out in the open and all the fantastical arrangements between us that he had been previously able to cordon off as non-negotiable suddenly became easy to identify as unhealthy, toxic, controlling moves on his part.
So for instance, in your case:
>> largely decided to become a parent in order not to lose me (I was prepared to have a child on my own if not with him). We struck a deal and I agreed to do more childcare for baby #1
is an example of a fantastical arrangement between you both that he has cordoned off as non-negotiable, but is in reality an incredibly toxic move on his part, not only as a partner to you but also as a parent to your child. In what universe does a parent get to wash their hands of ANY part of responsibility for a child in this manner? Answer: in a toxic one.
If you are interested in saving this relationship, give him this ultimatum. If you're not interested in making such an effort, that's absolutely your prerogative. In that case, you can leave him and he will need to share custody (i.e. do childcare that he is responsible for) as well as pay child support (i.e. provide for the child in proportion to his income).
Look, I know it's hard for you to read comments like mine. It sounds like I am devaluing your partner and devaluing your relationship. It sounds like I'm saying he's a monster who is calculating how best to exploit you. And you know that's not true. You know that your partner loves you, he loves your child, he is wonderful in so many ways, and you see yourself growing old with this man because of how much good you see in him and in your relationship. AND YOU'RE RIGHT. He's *not* evil. He's *not* a monster. You both love each other very much and you are not deluding yourself about the quality of your relationship.
But you know that love is not enough, right? Neither are good intentions, sincerity, commitment to fairness, etc.
The bottomline is, in fact, your bottomline. You know he's not being fair to you, and you're at the end of your rope. HE knows he's not being fair to you, but he won't admit it. Please don't allow this to be swept under the rug. You deserve the equity you're working so hard for.
posted by MiraK at 8:48 AM on August 3, 2021 [63 favorites]
Add up the dollar cost of everything I mentioned here. Then make your partner pay you his share, split according to your respective income (because that's the way child support works). That guarantees a *somewhat* equitable sharing of the costs of pregnancy on your life & body. To make it absolutely and completely fair to both of you, let's not devalue his contribution to this process... So add in the cost of a sperm sample and split that cost between you both as well (usually it runs to about $50 total).
Now let's move on to babycare, breastfeeding, and childcare. The assumption needs to be that once the baby is born, both of you are equally responsible for providing for the child's needs in proportion to your share of income. Each hour of being on "baby duty" can be assigned a monetary value, such as $15 an hour, and each day has a pot of 24 hours' worth of money that both of you contribute to, the percentage should be based on your income (again, since that's the way child support works). And then, at the end of the day, each hour of baby-duty gets paid out to whoever performed it. On-call hours are compensated the same as active-duty hours because that's the way being on-call works. Any shift exceeding 8 consecutive hours gets time-and-a-half. Adjust the daily pot accordingly.
Other activities to support babycare - such as time spent ordering diapers, time spent trying out nursing bras to find a good fit, time spent preparing special meals or food items such as blessed thistle tea for supporting breastmilk supply, etc. - should also be recorded and paid for at the rate you both have decided.
In reality this doesn't even come close to evening out the scales because you're not adding in opportunity costs, lost income, reduced retirement savings, etc. But start with this. Present your partner with this bill to equitably share the concrete costs of having a baby.
I suspect it will make him more amenable to the idea of couples' counseling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having finished with the facetious part of my comment, let me be serious:
> He’s not currently open to couples counseling
Listen. This is not an acceptable position for him to take. I'm not a fan of ultimatums at all, but this is one that I myself ended up giving my ex husband: go to counseling or we're done. What ended up happening in counseling (which, I suspect, is what my ex had been afraid of all along) was that the extreme unfairness of my ex's demands were laid out in the open and all the fantastical arrangements between us that he had been previously able to cordon off as non-negotiable suddenly became easy to identify as unhealthy, toxic, controlling moves on his part.
So for instance, in your case:
>> largely decided to become a parent in order not to lose me (I was prepared to have a child on my own if not with him). We struck a deal and I agreed to do more childcare for baby #1
is an example of a fantastical arrangement between you both that he has cordoned off as non-negotiable, but is in reality an incredibly toxic move on his part, not only as a partner to you but also as a parent to your child. In what universe does a parent get to wash their hands of ANY part of responsibility for a child in this manner? Answer: in a toxic one.
If you are interested in saving this relationship, give him this ultimatum. If you're not interested in making such an effort, that's absolutely your prerogative. In that case, you can leave him and he will need to share custody (i.e. do childcare that he is responsible for) as well as pay child support (i.e. provide for the child in proportion to his income).
Look, I know it's hard for you to read comments like mine. It sounds like I am devaluing your partner and devaluing your relationship. It sounds like I'm saying he's a monster who is calculating how best to exploit you. And you know that's not true. You know that your partner loves you, he loves your child, he is wonderful in so many ways, and you see yourself growing old with this man because of how much good you see in him and in your relationship. AND YOU'RE RIGHT. He's *not* evil. He's *not* a monster. You both love each other very much and you are not deluding yourself about the quality of your relationship.
But you know that love is not enough, right? Neither are good intentions, sincerity, commitment to fairness, etc.
The bottomline is, in fact, your bottomline. You know he's not being fair to you, and you're at the end of your rope. HE knows he's not being fair to you, but he won't admit it. Please don't allow this to be swept under the rug. You deserve the equity you're working so hard for.
posted by MiraK at 8:48 AM on August 3, 2021 [63 favorites]
Does he understand how unfair this setup is? Is that what he actually wants? Is he really ok with taking advantage of your time, effort, and your money?
I mean, maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but he needs to confront what is actually happening, and take active ownership of his choices, much more deeply than "trust me" which is really pretty shallow. I'd ask him to come up with a full accounting of what he thinks ongoing and past costs and time-spent are (including things like mat leave and retirement contributions) and what he thinks is a fair share from you both.
Right now it seems like he's making some assumptions about the status quo, and you are too, if you're not asking him to confront and own his choices. Which shouldn't be your job to do, but there it is.
posted by Dashy at 8:51 AM on August 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
I mean, maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but he needs to confront what is actually happening, and take active ownership of his choices, much more deeply than "trust me" which is really pretty shallow. I'd ask him to come up with a full accounting of what he thinks ongoing and past costs and time-spent are (including things like mat leave and retirement contributions) and what he thinks is a fair share from you both.
Right now it seems like he's making some assumptions about the status quo, and you are too, if you're not asking him to confront and own his choices. Which shouldn't be your job to do, but there it is.
posted by Dashy at 8:51 AM on August 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
The thing about his "trust me" and "I wouldn't let you go without" that really gets to me is that even now, when presumably things between the two of you are at their best (or at least are at a state where he's pleased enough with you to be as agreeable as he's ever likely to be), you are still going without. Without adequate support for your labors. Without financial security. You are going without right now.
Now, do you really think he's going to change his tune and suddenly contribute more to you if the two of you split up? Think through some of the possible reasons breakups occur - most of the ones I can think of are situations where he either won't be thinking of you or else will be upset with you. He holds all the power here, and it's not like people don't chose to either ignore or else actively "punish" their exes every damn day.
If he truly believes right now that he would never let you go without, then he needs to take steps to back that belief up with action. You deserve equity and security that relies on more than hope.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:12 AM on August 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
Now, do you really think he's going to change his tune and suddenly contribute more to you if the two of you split up? Think through some of the possible reasons breakups occur - most of the ones I can think of are situations where he either won't be thinking of you or else will be upset with you. He holds all the power here, and it's not like people don't chose to either ignore or else actively "punish" their exes every damn day.
If he truly believes right now that he would never let you go without, then he needs to take steps to back that belief up with action. You deserve equity and security that relies on more than hope.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:12 AM on August 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
I just want to add a high-earning, male voice to the chorus of people in here saying "the current arrangement doesn't sound equitable; he should be contributing proportionally to his income, including childcare."
I do think it's fair to discuss hiring paid help to reduce the load on you, even if that's not your preferred outcome. But even then, he should be paying at least his share of that, probably more (since it's only necessary because he doesn't want to do more himself).
posted by Alterscape at 9:26 AM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I do think it's fair to discuss hiring paid help to reduce the load on you, even if that's not your preferred outcome. But even then, he should be paying at least his share of that, probably more (since it's only necessary because he doesn't want to do more himself).
posted by Alterscape at 9:26 AM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Not being a family man myself (I'm just an old bachelor), I can't help but feel something is not quite right with this arrangement. From what you described, you two are merely cohabitating, not building a family. He said he wanted kids, but if he really wanted to pinch pennies and argue about equitable share with you while comparing checkbooks and income, I really feel he's not really... walking the talk.
But ultimately, this is your relationship. Please ask yourself the following:
* Is this a real family I'm building? Or am I merely WISHING it'd get better?
* What is my plan B, should this not go the way I planned it?
posted by kschang at 9:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
But ultimately, this is your relationship. Please ask yourself the following:
* Is this a real family I'm building? Or am I merely WISHING it'd get better?
* What is my plan B, should this not go the way I planned it?
posted by kschang at 9:28 AM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
He needs to be paying you a salary for the child care and household burdens you are taking on, and it needs to cover more than 100% of your expenses during the period you can't work. ("More than" because you are also missing out on savings, retirement funding, etc. in that period.)
I think in general, half of a couple's joint income should be allocated into separate accounts for each of them. If you're in a partnership, rather than a roommate or casual relationship, it's only fair.
posted by metasarah at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think in general, half of a couple's joint income should be allocated into separate accounts for each of them. If you're in a partnership, rather than a roommate or casual relationship, it's only fair.
posted by metasarah at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'd just like to state, apropos of nothing, that in all US states he'd be required to pay child support, despite your not being married.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [25 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:34 AM on August 3, 2021 [25 favorites]
I love the idea of a relationship that is not so transactional, but equity is a deeply held value of mine, and I don’t want to naively leave myself unprepared for expenses we bear individually or unprotected in the case of separation.
Maybe this is my pinko side, but I was raised that to believe that families - and if you live together and are having children together, you are a family - should be like communes: each giving and receiving according to their abilities and needs. Equity doesn't mean equality (each paying 50%) - it means that both are contributing in proportion to their abilities (financial or otherwise).
This doesn't mean you shouldn't both have private savings/assets - and you're very right to plan for your own financial future. But it does mean that, for example, that you probably need to pool most of your combine income because you are a family and supporting small children - and not just for necessities, but also for the "nice to haves". Your income will be zero because you are birthing and feeding a child that belongs to both of you - which is a huge contribution to the family that you have together. That may mean that your partner is having to contribute 90-95% of his personal income when you have no income, including money which you can spend on yourself (no questions asked) -- which is still fair, since you would be pooling essentially 100% of your non-income.
I know that gender roles have meaning in these debates, and many woman/afab people don't want to feel like they are reliant on their partners for money. But part of partnership is having equity, and not a false equality that isn't equity. I am an afab person with a cis male partner and there are times when he has made 10x what I have, and other times when I've made 10x what he has. We've gotten by and not fought about money by always viewing the vast majority of our incomes as "our money", because we both contribute, regardless of income.
posted by jb at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
Maybe this is my pinko side, but I was raised that to believe that families - and if you live together and are having children together, you are a family - should be like communes: each giving and receiving according to their abilities and needs. Equity doesn't mean equality (each paying 50%) - it means that both are contributing in proportion to their abilities (financial or otherwise).
This doesn't mean you shouldn't both have private savings/assets - and you're very right to plan for your own financial future. But it does mean that, for example, that you probably need to pool most of your combine income because you are a family and supporting small children - and not just for necessities, but also for the "nice to haves". Your income will be zero because you are birthing and feeding a child that belongs to both of you - which is a huge contribution to the family that you have together. That may mean that your partner is having to contribute 90-95% of his personal income when you have no income, including money which you can spend on yourself (no questions asked) -- which is still fair, since you would be pooling essentially 100% of your non-income.
I know that gender roles have meaning in these debates, and many woman/afab people don't want to feel like they are reliant on their partners for money. But part of partnership is having equity, and not a false equality that isn't equity. I am an afab person with a cis male partner and there are times when he has made 10x what I have, and other times when I've made 10x what he has. We've gotten by and not fought about money by always viewing the vast majority of our incomes as "our money", because we both contribute, regardless of income.
posted by jb at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
I think that using a child support calculator is a good idea, but keep in mind that it's often the bare minimum amount necessary to provide basic care. Also, regardless of what you decide to do, please look into establishing paternity. Laws vary by state, but it's pretty universal that a child born outside of marriage is considered legally fatherless until paternity is established (it doesn't matter if his name is on the birth certificate(s)). If he refuses to take this legal step (it sounds like he's been hesitant to legally bind himself to you in any way, which is a red flag to me, but I digress...) then you could leave him and take the children with you and he would have no entitlement to custody. Alternatively you could file for paternity and force him to respond in court, which would then grant you the child support that you should have. That shift in the power dynamic may open his eyes to the reality of the situation. Counseling would help and the fact that he won't go is another red flag.
posted by mezzanayne at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by mezzanayne at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think that you should be contributing to expenses proportionately, like people have said above. So if you're unemployed, he should really be contributing basically 100% (maybe you figure it out with unemployment but I kind of agree that if you're pregnant, that really needs to be saved for getting back in the workforce afterwards.)
So my math would be:
If you make $50,000 a year and he makes $100,000 a year, your combined income is $150,000 and his proportion is 2/3, so he pays 2/3 of bills (assuming you have equal say in choosing what your rent will be, for example.)
I’m no longer cool with our agreement that I do “more” once the second kid arrives, and I’ve done a lot more over the past two years than I imagined I would when I first agreed to this unequal arrangement.
For childcare, I think your original arrangement was not great for the child or for either of you, because unless there's a physical custody arrangement where the child is in one parent's care solely geographically, it's pretty hard to quantify.
And yeah, it's a lot more work than you know before you take it on. What if the child has special needs or how do you sort it out "breastfeeding hours vs. applying for financial aid in university hours?" A child needs to feel that both parents are 100% committed. So I wouldn't try to work this out on an hourly basis. I mean also -- a babysitting rate is not great. And how do you count the hours? If you're sick who pays whom? It seems to me like it's going to be more work to sort this out in money than it would be in time.
I'm not sure I would try to work it out on a financial basis at all. I think probably the work needs to be renegotiated and not the money. That's my point of view. Otherwise I think possibly the best way to handle it would be to agree on a retirement contribution and have him contribute that to your savings because it's kind of...time traded for time? And with the compound interest/investment income you have a chance of getting real value for it compared to minimum wage.
However, if you have to stay home for maternity leave or other reasons (like the aforementioned special needs), your partner should be paying 100% of the bills, contributing to your retirement as they are to their own, and providing you with some spending money.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
So my math would be:
If you make $50,000 a year and he makes $100,000 a year, your combined income is $150,000 and his proportion is 2/3, so he pays 2/3 of bills (assuming you have equal say in choosing what your rent will be, for example.)
I’m no longer cool with our agreement that I do “more” once the second kid arrives, and I’ve done a lot more over the past two years than I imagined I would when I first agreed to this unequal arrangement.
For childcare, I think your original arrangement was not great for the child or for either of you, because unless there's a physical custody arrangement where the child is in one parent's care solely geographically, it's pretty hard to quantify.
And yeah, it's a lot more work than you know before you take it on. What if the child has special needs or how do you sort it out "breastfeeding hours vs. applying for financial aid in university hours?" A child needs to feel that both parents are 100% committed. So I wouldn't try to work this out on an hourly basis. I mean also -- a babysitting rate is not great. And how do you count the hours? If you're sick who pays whom? It seems to me like it's going to be more work to sort this out in money than it would be in time.
I'm not sure I would try to work it out on a financial basis at all. I think probably the work needs to be renegotiated and not the money. That's my point of view. Otherwise I think possibly the best way to handle it would be to agree on a retirement contribution and have him contribute that to your savings because it's kind of...time traded for time? And with the compound interest/investment income you have a chance of getting real value for it compared to minimum wage.
However, if you have to stay home for maternity leave or other reasons (like the aforementioned special needs), your partner should be paying 100% of the bills, contributing to your retirement as they are to their own, and providing you with some spending money.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
By the way, he likely isn't open to counselling because he knows it will not benefit him. He'll get called on his bullshit, you'll get validation from a qualified third party and feel more empowered in a very unequal relationship, and it'll open up a can of worms he doesn't want to deal with.
posted by cultureclash82 at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2021 [59 favorites]
posted by cultureclash82 at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2021 [59 favorites]
What is he doing with his money that is more important than caring for the pregnant parent of his children? I feel like this is a different conversation if most of his money is going to alimony / supporting other family members vs. he’s living an extravagant lifestyle that you can’t afford. If you have no idea where his money goes, that’s also concerning.
Also: you probably need more retirement savings than your partner because of gender-related life expectancy differences, incorporate this into your financial planning.
posted by momus_window at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Also: you probably need more retirement savings than your partner because of gender-related life expectancy differences, incorporate this into your financial planning.
posted by momus_window at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Every woman I've known who was in an arrangement like yours either ended up as an impoverished single mother or trapped in an abusive relationship because they couldn't afford to leave.
You are SO SO SO vulnerable without the legal protections of marriage.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:08 AM on August 3, 2021 [45 favorites]
You are SO SO SO vulnerable without the legal protections of marriage.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:08 AM on August 3, 2021 [45 favorites]
Projecting to future scenarios where we’d qualify for financial assistance (i.e. aid for a pre-K program for the kids) based on my income but disqualify based on my partner’s. Then what?
BTW this is the exact reason why the responsibility of providing for a child falls on parents proportional to their income. Then what, you ask? Then your partner picks up e*all* of the cost that would have been covered by financial assistance + half of whatever would not have been covered, that's what. Because:
1. Clearly, based on your income, you qualify for financial assistance. Since HE disqualifies you from accessing that benefit, HE's responsible for making you whole.
2. If only you were employed and he had no income, then, according to his rules, he'd still pay half the costs for the child. Therefore he would still owe you half of whatever isn't covered by financial assistance.
I hope you're realizing the extent to which this man does not have your back. DingoMutt is right: he isn't even taking care of things now. He's already left you out in the cold not just financially but also as a partner and as a co-parent. He's living off your dime and calling it "even". It's horrifying.
posted by MiraK at 11:36 AM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
BTW this is the exact reason why the responsibility of providing for a child falls on parents proportional to their income. Then what, you ask? Then your partner picks up e*all* of the cost that would have been covered by financial assistance + half of whatever would not have been covered, that's what. Because:
1. Clearly, based on your income, you qualify for financial assistance. Since HE disqualifies you from accessing that benefit, HE's responsible for making you whole.
2. If only you were employed and he had no income, then, according to his rules, he'd still pay half the costs for the child. Therefore he would still owe you half of whatever isn't covered by financial assistance.
I hope you're realizing the extent to which this man does not have your back. DingoMutt is right: he isn't even taking care of things now. He's already left you out in the cold not just financially but also as a partner and as a co-parent. He's living off your dime and calling it "even". It's horrifying.
posted by MiraK at 11:36 AM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
Have you set up educational accounts for your kids?
Do you gave retirement accounts or investments?
Would you consider hiring a nanny or housekeeper?
posted by Ideefixe at 2:32 PM on August 3, 2021
Do you gave retirement accounts or investments?
Would you consider hiring a nanny or housekeeper?
posted by Ideefixe at 2:32 PM on August 3, 2021
I personally think you are getting the very very short end of the relationship stick here, but setting that aside. Theoretically, if I wanted to ask for financial and legal arrangements that would attempt to make this feel more fair and appropriately compensated, I would think about:
- 1) Establishing some type of large lump sum trust that would cover the kids from now until 18. It looks like USDA pegs this around $230-$280k per kid + extras for extraordinary events + college $$$$$. I feel like there should be a theoretical way to structure this legally to help protect all parties.
- 2) $X salary at child care / house work per year -- I might peg this to hypothetically if you were to both outsource this, how much would it cost to effectively get a full time nanny or boarding school (once old enough) type of set up. I would ask for ~X years of cash in the bank/trust, with legal commitments for ongoing committed payments that would adjust based on inflation, changes in his personal income, changes in needs of child, with a minimal floor.
- 3) Some pool of skills training/education/etc. funds for you in the event this relationship does not work, and you need to re-enter the work force, ditto on legal commitments
I personally think that marriage and more traditional pooling of finances can provide some of the financial / legal security, but, in lieu of that, I would expect to ask for a premium $ and unique legal terms for what *is* a higher risk relationship situation. Obviously this probably seems like large amount of money, but that is entirely the point -- e.g., if he is not truly bearing the risk of spending 1), 2) and 3), well, then you are bearing the risk. Maybe there are "co-parenting" contracts that you can take inspiration from.
posted by ellerhodes at 3:24 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
- 1) Establishing some type of large lump sum trust that would cover the kids from now until 18. It looks like USDA pegs this around $230-$280k per kid + extras for extraordinary events + college $$$$$. I feel like there should be a theoretical way to structure this legally to help protect all parties.
- 2) $X salary at child care / house work per year -- I might peg this to hypothetically if you were to both outsource this, how much would it cost to effectively get a full time nanny or boarding school (once old enough) type of set up. I would ask for ~X years of cash in the bank/trust, with legal commitments for ongoing committed payments that would adjust based on inflation, changes in his personal income, changes in needs of child, with a minimal floor.
- 3) Some pool of skills training/education/etc. funds for you in the event this relationship does not work, and you need to re-enter the work force, ditto on legal commitments
I personally think that marriage and more traditional pooling of finances can provide some of the financial / legal security, but, in lieu of that, I would expect to ask for a premium $ and unique legal terms for what *is* a higher risk relationship situation. Obviously this probably seems like large amount of money, but that is entirely the point -- e.g., if he is not truly bearing the risk of spending 1), 2) and 3), well, then you are bearing the risk. Maybe there are "co-parenting" contracts that you can take inspiration from.
posted by ellerhodes at 3:24 PM on August 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Check the laws where you live to see if you are already considered common law partners and have some protection in regards to separation and other protections marriage grants.
I would be looking for a therapist of your own to give you some space to sort through what odd a complicated situation. A financial advisor would help too but I would go for therapy Forrest to be ready for the financial counselling.
What you have now is deeply unfair and also - these are his children. He should prioritise them, and that means making sure they get enough financial support. You could have a shared bank account for child and household related expenses where he contributes proportional to income and your contribution in money is much much lower because of the sweat equity you are paying.
But your feelings of sadness and anger over this are totally valid. He is getting what he wants at the cost of your time and money. Can you see yourself doing this for the next 10-15 years and do you feel confident he will be supportive when you have health issues? Pregnancy is essentially a big health issue and he let you down - you are worried because with age coming up, the expectation is that you will take care of him but he’s shown he won’t take care of you when you’re vulnerable.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:33 PM on August 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I would be looking for a therapist of your own to give you some space to sort through what odd a complicated situation. A financial advisor would help too but I would go for therapy Forrest to be ready for the financial counselling.
What you have now is deeply unfair and also - these are his children. He should prioritise them, and that means making sure they get enough financial support. You could have a shared bank account for child and household related expenses where he contributes proportional to income and your contribution in money is much much lower because of the sweat equity you are paying.
But your feelings of sadness and anger over this are totally valid. He is getting what he wants at the cost of your time and money. Can you see yourself doing this for the next 10-15 years and do you feel confident he will be supportive when you have health issues? Pregnancy is essentially a big health issue and he let you down - you are worried because with age coming up, the expectation is that you will take care of him but he’s shown he won’t take care of you when you’re vulnerable.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:33 PM on August 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Let's take a completely plausible scenario: you are medically advised to be on complete bed rest for the last six weeks of your pregnancy because of pre-eclampsia/gestational diabetes/other causes I don't know. Is your reaction
a) god that would be such a relief to hand off all the childcare and housework
b) haha, as if that would work
c) oh my god, how would he even begin with looking after Toddler, maybe I should think about having my mom/friend/neighbor/competent adult be available to take Toddler/move in
(a) demonstrates trust that he would and could step up. The others demonstrate the lack of it, and I don't think you should let your life and your children's rely on the helpfulness of someone you can't really trust and won't give you any legal guarantees.
posted by bashing rocks together at 5:35 PM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
a) god that would be such a relief to hand off all the childcare and housework
b) haha, as if that would work
c) oh my god, how would he even begin with looking after Toddler, maybe I should think about having my mom/friend/neighbor/competent adult be available to take Toddler/move in
(a) demonstrates trust that he would and could step up. The others demonstrate the lack of it, and I don't think you should let your life and your children's rely on the helpfulness of someone you can't really trust and won't give you any legal guarantees.
posted by bashing rocks together at 5:35 PM on August 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
This arrangement sounds incredibly stressful and deeply unequal to me. Two children are much harder to raise than one, and it's extremely difficult to manage both without active assistance from your partner. Add in the stress of not having financial stability and that sounds really, really hard.
I would suggest solo counseling for you, as well as talking with a lawyer about your partner's obligations, and a financial adviser, to find out what a solution might be. At the least, your partner should be paying 100% of all household bills while you are home with your mutual children and providing you with a stipend to cover your personal and household needs. And, while he's at it, he should fully fund your IRA each year.
Sadly, I have seen situations where a partner insists on "equity" while his child-rearing partner is at home. The most blatant of these was a case when both parents agreed they wanted their child to be cared for by a parent. The female partner stayed home, but drained, first her savings, then her retirement accounts, to pay for "her share" of the bills. It's been years, she never really recovered financially, and, when the marriage turned abusive, had to borrow money from her mother to pay for her divorce lawyer.
I'm not saying this will happen to you, but it's definitely a cautionary tale. In my friend's case, her husband was hoping that forcing her to be financial dependent on him would force her to overlook his behavior and stay with him.
posted by dancing_angel at 6:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
I would suggest solo counseling for you, as well as talking with a lawyer about your partner's obligations, and a financial adviser, to find out what a solution might be. At the least, your partner should be paying 100% of all household bills while you are home with your mutual children and providing you with a stipend to cover your personal and household needs. And, while he's at it, he should fully fund your IRA each year.
Sadly, I have seen situations where a partner insists on "equity" while his child-rearing partner is at home. The most blatant of these was a case when both parents agreed they wanted their child to be cared for by a parent. The female partner stayed home, but drained, first her savings, then her retirement accounts, to pay for "her share" of the bills. It's been years, she never really recovered financially, and, when the marriage turned abusive, had to borrow money from her mother to pay for her divorce lawyer.
I'm not saying this will happen to you, but it's definitely a cautionary tale. In my friend's case, her husband was hoping that forcing her to be financial dependent on him would force her to overlook his behavior and stay with him.
posted by dancing_angel at 6:58 PM on August 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
Unless his first two wives died, then there's a very high chance this is all bullshit: you can trust me”, “don’t worry about it”, “we are one another’s back-stops” and “I won’t let you go without” mindset
Would his first two wives say that they could trust him, he was their back-stop, that he wouldn't let them go without?
I realize people have complicated relationships with marriage as an institution, but the two of you are in a long term committed relationship with children. What line does marriage cross for him? The line where he has enforceable legal obligations?
posted by Mavri at 7:02 PM on August 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
Would his first two wives say that they could trust him, he was their back-stop, that he wouldn't let them go without?
I realize people have complicated relationships with marriage as an institution, but the two of you are in a long term committed relationship with children. What line does marriage cross for him? The line where he has enforceable legal obligations?
posted by Mavri at 7:02 PM on August 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
You are both operating as if he has no obligations to his children that exist independently of his obligations to -- or coercive deals with -- you. but he does. I don't mean the financial ones.
He did not do you a favor when he agreed to conceive your first child. If he went into it knowingly and willingly, and if he is still presenting himself to you, to the child, and to the law as that child's father, his obligations cannot be dissolved by his own wishes. not even if you once said you didn't mind. your first child's right to care from both its parents was not yours to barter away. does that mean the situation as it is is half your fault? fuck no. not even close.
your older child is not yet old enough for complex articulation of pain and resentment, but they will be soon enough. when he says to them -- what will he say? "Your mom and I agreed that I wouldn't have to worry about your daily needs and emotional maintenance, just her; we shook hands on it and everything. what do you mean you weren't consulted, what's it got to do with you?"
at that time a bill will come due that he is right now pretending isn't his to pay. And because you are a family, you really are, regardless of his little "thing" about marriage and all other interpersonal responsibilities, this will hurt you, too, not just the child, and not just through your empathy and love for the child(ren).
If I were you, I would want to know his concrete and detailed plans for caring for his two children, in the event you died suddenly. and then I would ask him to start putting those plans ever so gradually into practice, while you are still there to see it. and in the event he treated this as a big joke, I would get my own place and a child support order. I say this occasionally but I rarely mean it so profoundly as I do in this case. I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
YES get your own financial planner yesterday. and lawyer. ignore everything else I said if you like, but do that.
p.s. I feel strongly not because your description of this guy reminds me of any ex of my own, but because he reminds me of my mother's wistful memories of my own dad. children may love, but they are not blinded to paternal faults by romantic love.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:56 PM on August 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
He did not do you a favor when he agreed to conceive your first child. If he went into it knowingly and willingly, and if he is still presenting himself to you, to the child, and to the law as that child's father, his obligations cannot be dissolved by his own wishes. not even if you once said you didn't mind. your first child's right to care from both its parents was not yours to barter away. does that mean the situation as it is is half your fault? fuck no. not even close.
your older child is not yet old enough for complex articulation of pain and resentment, but they will be soon enough. when he says to them -- what will he say? "Your mom and I agreed that I wouldn't have to worry about your daily needs and emotional maintenance, just her; we shook hands on it and everything. what do you mean you weren't consulted, what's it got to do with you?"
at that time a bill will come due that he is right now pretending isn't his to pay. And because you are a family, you really are, regardless of his little "thing" about marriage and all other interpersonal responsibilities, this will hurt you, too, not just the child, and not just through your empathy and love for the child(ren).
If I were you, I would want to know his concrete and detailed plans for caring for his two children, in the event you died suddenly. and then I would ask him to start putting those plans ever so gradually into practice, while you are still there to see it. and in the event he treated this as a big joke, I would get my own place and a child support order. I say this occasionally but I rarely mean it so profoundly as I do in this case. I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
YES get your own financial planner yesterday. and lawyer. ignore everything else I said if you like, but do that.
p.s. I feel strongly not because your description of this guy reminds me of any ex of my own, but because he reminds me of my mother's wistful memories of my own dad. children may love, but they are not blinded to paternal faults by romantic love.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:56 PM on August 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
Oh my god, I’m exhausted just reading about what a shitty arrangement you have. Your partner is a selfish asshole. Lawyer up, and DTMFA.
I mean, I have put up with some bullshit in my time, but this is over and above. He is contributing nothing to this relationship except paying for his own cost of living. He’s got a free maid, a free baby maker, a free nanny. You have...no job, no peace, no free time. You deserve better.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:27 PM on August 3, 2021 [25 favorites]
I mean, I have put up with some bullshit in my time, but this is over and above. He is contributing nothing to this relationship except paying for his own cost of living. He’s got a free maid, a free baby maker, a free nanny. You have...no job, no peace, no free time. You deserve better.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:27 PM on August 3, 2021 [25 favorites]
I agree; this dude is a deadbeat. I'm sorry, OP.
I ran out of patience with a deadbeat dude finally, and he and I didn't even have kids. (I was at least savvy enough to realize that if we did, we'd have ended up in a situation much like yours. I didn't want any part of that, and I'm glad beyond measure about it now.)
Sheelzebub Principle time: if this goes on exactly as is for one more year, five more years, ten more years... would you up stakes and leave? Then up stakes and leave now.
posted by humbug at 6:11 AM on August 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
I ran out of patience with a deadbeat dude finally, and he and I didn't even have kids. (I was at least savvy enough to realize that if we did, we'd have ended up in a situation much like yours. I didn't want any part of that, and I'm glad beyond measure about it now.)
Sheelzebub Principle time: if this goes on exactly as is for one more year, five more years, ten more years... would you up stakes and leave? Then up stakes and leave now.
posted by humbug at 6:11 AM on August 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would consult a family law attorney now if I were you, for two reasons. First, you should know what rights you have if you split up, because I think there's a nonzero chance you're headed that way. But second, that lawyer can help you calculate what you're financially entitled to, based on your jurisdiction's child support and palimony laws, and that gives you hard numbers to take to your partner in your continued conversations over this. Refusing to go to counseling with you needs to be a deal-breaker, because it seems like he is also refusing to have these important conversations with you outside of counseling, and that the conversations you initiate are unproductive. You owe it to your children to make sure that they and their mother don't get screwed because their father has some very weird ideas about fairness and sharing within families.
posted by decathecting at 6:17 AM on August 4, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 6:17 AM on August 4, 2021 [12 favorites]
Assuming that you are not planning to DTMFA, and you're mainly looking for more financial equity you can still work with this. You said He is open to other proposals including one-off lump sum payments to me. This is a good starting place to figure out if he really means that.
Look at everything you spent for your one kid over the last year. Everything. Groceries, clothes, doctor appointments, unexpected expenses. Then multiply it by two. Then think about everything that was an unexpected expense when you had your first child. Add that to your total. Then look at how you spent money on yourself in the last year to survive basically being full time mom and add that. Then estimate the cost of what you can contract out (groceries, some house cleaning, someone to come over an watch kid 1 for 10 hours every week) and add that in. Let him know your total "I calculated the annual cost of the children, and this is the annual upfront lump sum I need in my bank account with the understanding that further unexpected expenses might come up."
If he tries to nickle and dime you on the figure or argue that he doesn't want to do such a large upfront annual payment (or make a shared bank account with that amount in it so you don't have to ask him everytime you need to buy more diapers) than you need to carefully consider whether your children will benefit from seeing a relationship dynamic like the one you have. Couples have different approaches to finances but you shouldn't have to dig into your savings when you are unemployed (while your partner has a continual cash inflow) to care for children that are also your partner's responsibility.
posted by donut_princess at 6:22 AM on August 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Look at everything you spent for your one kid over the last year. Everything. Groceries, clothes, doctor appointments, unexpected expenses. Then multiply it by two. Then think about everything that was an unexpected expense when you had your first child. Add that to your total. Then look at how you spent money on yourself in the last year to survive basically being full time mom and add that. Then estimate the cost of what you can contract out (groceries, some house cleaning, someone to come over an watch kid 1 for 10 hours every week) and add that in. Let him know your total "I calculated the annual cost of the children, and this is the annual upfront lump sum I need in my bank account with the understanding that further unexpected expenses might come up."
If he tries to nickle and dime you on the figure or argue that he doesn't want to do such a large upfront annual payment (or make a shared bank account with that amount in it so you don't have to ask him everytime you need to buy more diapers) than you need to carefully consider whether your children will benefit from seeing a relationship dynamic like the one you have. Couples have different approaches to finances but you shouldn't have to dig into your savings when you are unemployed (while your partner has a continual cash inflow) to care for children that are also your partner's responsibility.
posted by donut_princess at 6:22 AM on August 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't get the feeling you were asking "is this fair?" because you know it isn't, as approximately 8 million people above have validated. I think your baseline is so fucked from living with this arrangement that you are asking "what is fair?" That's why I suggested looking at the MA state guidelines for child support. That is the absolute minimum that's fair. That's the botton rung for fair.
While I trust his good intent, so long as we manage our finances separately, I don’t feel safe or secure without more concrete agreements.
And this is completely fair, because you don't know what security you have. But in the absence of a contract between you (ie, marriage) you have what is granted to you by the state in which you reside, not by your partner's good will.
I would see a family law attorney, quietly and privately, to find out more about what happens in the case of the unexpected: your partner leaves you, or dies.
And I'd also look at the legal protections afforded to you and your children by Domestic Partnership in MA.
Just please, get some professional help to find out where you actually stand.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:43 AM on August 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
While I trust his good intent, so long as we manage our finances separately, I don’t feel safe or secure without more concrete agreements.
And this is completely fair, because you don't know what security you have. But in the absence of a contract between you (ie, marriage) you have what is granted to you by the state in which you reside, not by your partner's good will.
I would see a family law attorney, quietly and privately, to find out more about what happens in the case of the unexpected: your partner leaves you, or dies.
And I'd also look at the legal protections afforded to you and your children by Domestic Partnership in MA.
Just please, get some professional help to find out where you actually stand.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:43 AM on August 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I knew that this would be jarring, and also motivating.
I realize now that I may have given the impression that I am doing full-time childcare for our son. I am not. He's in daycare full-time (partner and I split the cost). Our second child will also be with a nanny or in daycare full-time once she's three-months old.
I am not going to DTMFA for several reasons, but I am aware of the urgency to act. Since my original post, I have accepted a job that pays, as I suspected, approx. 40% of my partner's current income. I also scheduled a call with a family lawyer and a financial planner. I intend to get back into individual therapy once my new insurance kicks in in the coming weeks.
We live in a common law marriage state, so will question the lawyer about this. I'm also near certain that my partner established paternity when our son was born and not only on the birth certificate, but will double check.
I will decide how to move this forward with my partner after my professional consultations next week, but I'm actively working it out. Thank you for your time and care.
posted by AlmondEyes at 9:26 AM on August 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
I realize now that I may have given the impression that I am doing full-time childcare for our son. I am not. He's in daycare full-time (partner and I split the cost). Our second child will also be with a nanny or in daycare full-time once she's three-months old.
I am not going to DTMFA for several reasons, but I am aware of the urgency to act. Since my original post, I have accepted a job that pays, as I suspected, approx. 40% of my partner's current income. I also scheduled a call with a family lawyer and a financial planner. I intend to get back into individual therapy once my new insurance kicks in in the coming weeks.
We live in a common law marriage state, so will question the lawyer about this. I'm also near certain that my partner established paternity when our son was born and not only on the birth certificate, but will double check.
I will decide how to move this forward with my partner after my professional consultations next week, but I'm actively working it out. Thank you for your time and care.
posted by AlmondEyes at 9:26 AM on August 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
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posted by Laura in Canada at 6:42 AM on August 3, 2021