Competition distancing relationships
July 29, 2021 3:11 PM Subscribe
I'm not proud of myself for even having to ask this question, but I want to improve:
I notice that when somebody is "my competition," I find it really hard to be friends with them, or get close to them, or stay close to them.
I was/am in this ridiculously competitive educational track / system where everyone was either an overachiever or just extremely talented, or maybe a little of both.
My problem is that it is hard for me to be close to somebody if they are working towards the same goals as me. I do have good friends, but they're all in at least slightly or completely different fields from me (even if they're within the same field, they have a different area of interest, or are in a different point in their career). If they're coming from the same place or background, working towards a very similar goal, then I find I need to distance myself. I'm not proud of this, but sometimes I even inwardly (never outwardly) put these people down when they are too close to me. I would say congratulations to them and stuff, but I don't think I'd really be genuinely happy FOR them if they got something I wanted for myself. I would feel like a bad person for feeling that way. Then I would keep my head down and just keep working. It's not exactly schadenfreude, but maybe sort of related in that it is about comparison?
There were some points in my educational path where it felt like a zero-sum game. Maybe it truly was, maybe it wasn't, but that's how it felt to me. The stakes always felt high. I am not really sure how it felt to other people. Nobody ever really openly talked about the psychological realities of competition, and if anything, they minimized it. It seemed like competition was this rotten, taboo thing (people would say "come to our program, it's not competitive at all unlike the many other programs out there!") and so I feel doubly bad and ashamed about even having these feelings and patterns of behavior at all.
It now seems ridiculous to me, how much pressure I put on myself back then. It feels so petty and immature. It was not until I got to a point in my career where everyone now truly IS doing something slightly different, everyone is supportive, and I was no longer taking biweekly or monthly exams or doing presentations or applying for awards that this started to let up. But I still think back at the people I distanced myself from, who honestly now seem like perfectly nice, funny, hardworking, talented people who I could learn a lot from, and feel like I missed out and didn't approach this the right way. (What is the right way?) I feel like I didn't or couldn't even see them as full people- I just was like, "okay, are they ahead of me or not?" and I found it hard to express curiosity about them and their lives. I know, I suck.
I also find myself wondering, how do people who continue on in this type of track (for example academia or whatever other highly competitive endeavor) approach it? I don't feel like I could do this competition thing for one more second. Do people actually enjoy this?
I am concerned that this pattern could spill over into other areas of my life / other personal relationships- like what if people close to me achieve various milestones I am working on myself, or get to do something I simply can't because of discrepancies in income, or physical abilities, or whatever? Maybe there are some similarities in how people sometimes find it difficult to remain friends with people who have vastly different income levels than themselves - I haven't gotten to that point in my life yet, but I'm just trying to imagine how this dynamic could continue to spoil things for me, because I really don't want it to.
Has anybody ever experienced something similar? What did you do to change this? Are there things to read about this kind of experience that might help me feel a little kinder towards myself and these feelings, while also maturing to a more enlightened and freer stage?
I was/am in this ridiculously competitive educational track / system where everyone was either an overachiever or just extremely talented, or maybe a little of both.
My problem is that it is hard for me to be close to somebody if they are working towards the same goals as me. I do have good friends, but they're all in at least slightly or completely different fields from me (even if they're within the same field, they have a different area of interest, or are in a different point in their career). If they're coming from the same place or background, working towards a very similar goal, then I find I need to distance myself. I'm not proud of this, but sometimes I even inwardly (never outwardly) put these people down when they are too close to me. I would say congratulations to them and stuff, but I don't think I'd really be genuinely happy FOR them if they got something I wanted for myself. I would feel like a bad person for feeling that way. Then I would keep my head down and just keep working. It's not exactly schadenfreude, but maybe sort of related in that it is about comparison?
There were some points in my educational path where it felt like a zero-sum game. Maybe it truly was, maybe it wasn't, but that's how it felt to me. The stakes always felt high. I am not really sure how it felt to other people. Nobody ever really openly talked about the psychological realities of competition, and if anything, they minimized it. It seemed like competition was this rotten, taboo thing (people would say "come to our program, it's not competitive at all unlike the many other programs out there!") and so I feel doubly bad and ashamed about even having these feelings and patterns of behavior at all.
It now seems ridiculous to me, how much pressure I put on myself back then. It feels so petty and immature. It was not until I got to a point in my career where everyone now truly IS doing something slightly different, everyone is supportive, and I was no longer taking biweekly or monthly exams or doing presentations or applying for awards that this started to let up. But I still think back at the people I distanced myself from, who honestly now seem like perfectly nice, funny, hardworking, talented people who I could learn a lot from, and feel like I missed out and didn't approach this the right way. (What is the right way?) I feel like I didn't or couldn't even see them as full people- I just was like, "okay, are they ahead of me or not?" and I found it hard to express curiosity about them and their lives. I know, I suck.
I also find myself wondering, how do people who continue on in this type of track (for example academia or whatever other highly competitive endeavor) approach it? I don't feel like I could do this competition thing for one more second. Do people actually enjoy this?
I am concerned that this pattern could spill over into other areas of my life / other personal relationships- like what if people close to me achieve various milestones I am working on myself, or get to do something I simply can't because of discrepancies in income, or physical abilities, or whatever? Maybe there are some similarities in how people sometimes find it difficult to remain friends with people who have vastly different income levels than themselves - I haven't gotten to that point in my life yet, but I'm just trying to imagine how this dynamic could continue to spoil things for me, because I really don't want it to.
Has anybody ever experienced something similar? What did you do to change this? Are there things to read about this kind of experience that might help me feel a little kinder towards myself and these feelings, while also maturing to a more enlightened and freer stage?
I've been in a toxic relationship (or two, hi!) where a kind of "devil take the hindmost" appears and I (or they) do just enough to keep the moral high ground of putting in more effort than you.
I hope that's clear: you can be both, caring for some layers of a person while also riven with contempt for the areas you're doing a better job than they are. It's not healthy, nor is it sustainable.
I guess what I can offer is the foundational thought that this other person is grounding you as a competitor -- may you find other ways to be grounded to what you do.
Plus: what do you know about yourself until you've fallen, failing and broken and put yourself back together?
posted by k3ninho at 3:50 PM on July 29, 2021
I hope that's clear: you can be both, caring for some layers of a person while also riven with contempt for the areas you're doing a better job than they are. It's not healthy, nor is it sustainable.
I guess what I can offer is the foundational thought that this other person is grounding you as a competitor -- may you find other ways to be grounded to what you do.
Plus: what do you know about yourself until you've fallen, failing and broken and put yourself back together?
posted by k3ninho at 3:50 PM on July 29, 2021
Yes a million times to what nantucket said about Everyone is Fabulous.
Check out shine theory.
sometimes I even inwardly (never outwardly) put these people down when they are too close to me
I know, I suck.
Nope. You are a human being trying to figure out how to best relate to other human beings in a weird world. You're asking this question. That alone tells me that you don't suck. It's clear that you don't want to put other people down so please don't put yourself down. You're Fabulous.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:10 PM on July 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
Check out shine theory.
sometimes I even inwardly (never outwardly) put these people down when they are too close to me
I know, I suck.
Nope. You are a human being trying to figure out how to best relate to other human beings in a weird world. You're asking this question. That alone tells me that you don't suck. It's clear that you don't want to put other people down so please don't put yourself down. You're Fabulous.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:10 PM on July 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'll even go one further here as someone who had your initial attitude beat into her in high school.
What you actually want is to have friends and family who are better than you because that will actually make you better (or at least have someone super great to consult with.)
Having to be the best/top/most-whatever is exhausting at times. Choosing to build a life where you always have opportunities to learn and grow is pretty amazing. Surrounding yourself with people that will help you learn and grow -- not just by supporting you but through their own awesome selves - adds to that.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:14 PM on July 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
What you actually want is to have friends and family who are better than you because that will actually make you better (or at least have someone super great to consult with.)
Having to be the best/top/most-whatever is exhausting at times. Choosing to build a life where you always have opportunities to learn and grow is pretty amazing. Surrounding yourself with people that will help you learn and grow -- not just by supporting you but through their own awesome selves - adds to that.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:14 PM on July 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I love nantucket's answer!
One thought to add to it: I have found that it's easier for me to exist in Mode 2 when I surround myself with Mode 2 people. If I hang around too much with Mode 1 people -- even if they are on the self-deprecating end and constantly talk about how they're not as good rather than how great they are -- then I start to think in that way; I start to compare myself to others and keep track of an invisible mental hierarchy.
The trick for me is to avoid conceptualising any hierarchies at all, no matter whether I'm high or low on them. And becoming friends with Mode 2 people who do the same is how I stick with it. It becomes a virtuous cycle: the more you're around people who see success as a shared thing rather than a zero-sum competition, the more you feel the same. And that feeling, like success itself, spreads.
posted by sir jective at 4:29 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
One thought to add to it: I have found that it's easier for me to exist in Mode 2 when I surround myself with Mode 2 people. If I hang around too much with Mode 1 people -- even if they are on the self-deprecating end and constantly talk about how they're not as good rather than how great they are -- then I start to think in that way; I start to compare myself to others and keep track of an invisible mental hierarchy.
The trick for me is to avoid conceptualising any hierarchies at all, no matter whether I'm high or low on them. And becoming friends with Mode 2 people who do the same is how I stick with it. It becomes a virtuous cycle: the more you're around people who see success as a shared thing rather than a zero-sum competition, the more you feel the same. And that feeling, like success itself, spreads.
posted by sir jective at 4:29 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think it's all well and good to name the two different modes, but in my experience you can't do mode 2 with somebody unless you're feeling good about what you're doing yourself - being a MacArthur fellow makes this easier, not harder.
The only thing I've ever found useful when I'm feeling competitive with somebody is to .. stop competing with them. This can take a variety of forms - you can switch fields, you can ironically distance from your work, but the most common way is to specialize. Sure, person X does really polished widgets, but you do really funky widgets.
Given that, it's not surprising you felt competitive and messed-up in academia - in large part, education is about figuring out what area you can specialize and be successful in, so it's no wonder that people midway through that journey are going to be jostling each other frequently.
In terms of future relationships, some kind of competitive jealousy is still going to happen, but almost all the time it's going to be at a time when you're unhappy with your own life - so focus on that, and on finding friends who aren't going to be drifting into your lane all the time.
posted by inkyz at 6:39 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
The only thing I've ever found useful when I'm feeling competitive with somebody is to .. stop competing with them. This can take a variety of forms - you can switch fields, you can ironically distance from your work, but the most common way is to specialize. Sure, person X does really polished widgets, but you do really funky widgets.
Given that, it's not surprising you felt competitive and messed-up in academia - in large part, education is about figuring out what area you can specialize and be successful in, so it's no wonder that people midway through that journey are going to be jostling each other frequently.
In terms of future relationships, some kind of competitive jealousy is still going to happen, but almost all the time it's going to be at a time when you're unhappy with your own life - so focus on that, and on finding friends who aren't going to be drifting into your lane all the time.
posted by inkyz at 6:39 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
you can't do mode 2 with somebody unless you're feeling good about what you're doing yourself
Yes, this is wha struck me about your "I know, I suck"... having compassion for others and being truly happy for their successes, talents, etc starts with you. Can you start having more compassion for yourself, how hard all that competition has been on you, how it's been helpful sometimes, sure, but it's also not helpful anymore?
It can be very hard to move out of that zero-sum game if the environment encourages it. But if you seek out the people and interests that really do seem to be mostly working to build others up, it will be easier to create win/win situations. Start recognizing and celebrating your own good qualities (to yourself! and a journal/friend - not your "competition") and it will be easier to recognize and honestly celebrate theirs. Such a happier way to be.
posted by ldthomps at 7:12 PM on July 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is wha struck me about your "I know, I suck"... having compassion for others and being truly happy for their successes, talents, etc starts with you. Can you start having more compassion for yourself, how hard all that competition has been on you, how it's been helpful sometimes, sure, but it's also not helpful anymore?
It can be very hard to move out of that zero-sum game if the environment encourages it. But if you seek out the people and interests that really do seem to be mostly working to build others up, it will be easier to create win/win situations. Start recognizing and celebrating your own good qualities (to yourself! and a journal/friend - not your "competition") and it will be easier to recognize and honestly celebrate theirs. Such a happier way to be.
posted by ldthomps at 7:12 PM on July 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
What you’re describing is scarcity mindset thinking. The idea that there’s not enough room for everyone, only so much recognition to go around, limited time, everything adds up to a whole (zero-sum), black and white, competitive over collaborative, etc.
This and some of the other things you’ve said in the post are forms of Automatic Negative Thoughts, or ANTs.
The two main things to work on here that could help:
1. Thoughtwork in the form of noticing your ANTs, practicing new and more helpful thoughts, repatterning your mindset and working through any underlying fear, doubt, imposter syndrome feelings that are driving this behaviour.
2. Practicing different forms of self-care, especially reflective self-care, involving things like journaling, mindfulness, and talking with others who can mirror or reflect back to you what they’re hearing.
Over time, this will help you get to a place where you can befriend the behavior, find peace with it and move toward a generous, wholehearted mindset. This will allow you to learn and grow from everyone around you, without feeling intimidated or threatened.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:18 PM on July 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
This and some of the other things you’ve said in the post are forms of Automatic Negative Thoughts, or ANTs.
The two main things to work on here that could help:
1. Thoughtwork in the form of noticing your ANTs, practicing new and more helpful thoughts, repatterning your mindset and working through any underlying fear, doubt, imposter syndrome feelings that are driving this behaviour.
2. Practicing different forms of self-care, especially reflective self-care, involving things like journaling, mindfulness, and talking with others who can mirror or reflect back to you what they’re hearing.
Over time, this will help you get to a place where you can befriend the behavior, find peace with it and move toward a generous, wholehearted mindset. This will allow you to learn and grow from everyone around you, without feeling intimidated or threatened.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:18 PM on July 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also want to put a finger on that double bind you've had impressed on you from an early age: 1) you have to be cutthroat competitive because only the best are worth anything and 2) never, ever admit that this is the way you see it because struggling like that is for losers who aren't worth anything.
Each of these alone is poisonous, but together they contradict each other and make you doubt what you're experiencing. You're struggling to reconcile 2 contradictory narratives.
So now you've carried that internal world view into a less unhealthy environment. You feel you have to leave your competition in the dust or be a loser and you feel a loser for feeling this way.
Neither of these is true. I think resolving this learned feeling of low self worth is the way to start untangling this.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:58 PM on July 29, 2021
Each of these alone is poisonous, but together they contradict each other and make you doubt what you're experiencing. You're struggling to reconcile 2 contradictory narratives.
So now you've carried that internal world view into a less unhealthy environment. You feel you have to leave your competition in the dust or be a loser and you feel a loser for feeling this way.
Neither of these is true. I think resolving this learned feeling of low self worth is the way to start untangling this.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:58 PM on July 29, 2021
To put it even more concisely, you have a hard time being your generous better self with friends because their successes feel like a threat. What you're feeling is not schadenfreude but fear.
Fear that their successes make you worthless. It's a very old, learned fear. You can unlearn it with some work (therapy probably helps).
Side note: Every child learns what it needs to do to gain their adult's love and approval. Every child is afraid of losing it. It's worth thinking about how this played out for you and what lessons you absorbed at an early age even before you started school.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:38 AM on July 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Fear that their successes make you worthless. It's a very old, learned fear. You can unlearn it with some work (therapy probably helps).
Side note: Every child learns what it needs to do to gain their adult's love and approval. Every child is afraid of losing it. It's worth thinking about how this played out for you and what lessons you absorbed at an early age even before you started school.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:38 AM on July 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
It now seems ridiculous to me, how much pressure I put on myself back then. ... It was not until I got to a point in my career where everyone now truly IS doing something slightly different, everyone is supportive... that this started to let up.
I want to encourage you to stop and realize that you are already in the process of figuring this out for yourself. This new perspective is not automatic just because the pressure let up - for some people that sense of scarcity - that there is only one winner and it has to be you - lasts a lifetime. But you are able to take advantage to easing of pressure to really appreciate that it doesn't have to be that way and you can appreciate all the nice people around you and start (just start - this is a work in progress) to give and receive support instead of competition.
You can make excuses why it doesn't count or why there is something wrong with you that you couldn't do it sooner but just stop for a minute and appreciate the growth that is happening for you here. It may be small, there may be more growth to do (isn't there always?) but this is real and you are already moving in the direction that you want to go.
posted by metahawk at 11:07 AM on July 31, 2021
I want to encourage you to stop and realize that you are already in the process of figuring this out for yourself. This new perspective is not automatic just because the pressure let up - for some people that sense of scarcity - that there is only one winner and it has to be you - lasts a lifetime. But you are able to take advantage to easing of pressure to really appreciate that it doesn't have to be that way and you can appreciate all the nice people around you and start (just start - this is a work in progress) to give and receive support instead of competition.
You can make excuses why it doesn't count or why there is something wrong with you that you couldn't do it sooner but just stop for a minute and appreciate the growth that is happening for you here. It may be small, there may be more growth to do (isn't there always?) but this is real and you are already moving in the direction that you want to go.
posted by metahawk at 11:07 AM on July 31, 2021
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I think there are 2 ways to feel good about being smart.
Mode 1. You feel good always being the smartest in the whole universe at everything and knowing at all times that everyone else is below you.
Obviously this never works. For anyone. It is exhausting, too.
Mode 2. You feel good because you're surrounded by smart people, their smartness rubs off on you, their smartness reflects your own smartness for being near them, for being in the same species with them, for occupying the planet with them; no matter what amazing thing they do, you share it because you are in a smart circle, you are delighted by their fabulous brilliance, YAY! This one is called Everyone is Fabulous!
For Mode 2: You get to praise people in your own head and to others, not have to constantly think of ways that actually they're bad at this or that to make an exhausting, impossible balance sheet come out in your favor.
Both my former Phd advisor and a colleague are MacArthur Fellows. Yet -- though invisible people with big money said they are Geniuses! --[...] I've been noticing for years that they are squarely in Mode 2: "You won! Marvelous! I'm with smart people! Everyone is fabulous!" They introduce people to each other exclaiming over the wondrousness of other people, and they really do think it makes their own self more shiny to be around fabulous others.
Mode 2 is so much better for mental health. Everyone should do it. (Everyone really is fabulous!)
posted by nantucket at 9:25 PM on November 13, 2019 [25 favorites +] [!]
posted by nantucket at 3:31 PM on July 29, 2021 [22 favorites]