How to protect our 12 daughter online.
June 6, 2021 10:24 PM Subscribe
Our twelve year old takes enormous risks online. She discloses her real name, age, and school, and has multiple accounts across many different apps. I believe she’s likely being groomed.
We knew we were a few steps behind her in trying to make it all secure (phone and laptop for school), but it’s become obvious over the last few days how deeply embedded she is with online “friends”. They all make themselves out to be very sweet but slightly vulnerable school girls who tell my daughter how sweet and pretty she is, and how misunderstood she is.
She’s an incredibly bright child who is struggling to engage at school, at home, with irl friends or her pets.
We started her with a therapist last week but we didn’t know the extent of her vulnerability. When she has talked about friends giving her a VPN we thought a school friend. She believes all these online girls are real and hates us for taking away her devices. She’s incredibly tech savvy and is angry, despairing and very very deceitful right now.
We are so worried. We have no idea what she’s seen or sent or done …if anything. But in conversations, now deleted by her, she talked about how much porn she’s been sent and she screen shot a number of “girls” saying they liked her. She keeps telling them she’s not bi, but these “girls” are definitely love bombing her.
When I suggested many were pedophiles who were grooming her trust - she was angry as she believes these tween “girls” in the Maldives and Indonesia and Mexico (with impeccable written English) are true friends.
We are beside ourselves. We don’t know how to protect her. We don’t know how to stop her -she is convinced she is too clever to be conned. And she is also incredibly cunning. She’s 12. She’s angry. She’s sad. And she’s clearly feeling isolated. Please help us with all the advice you can around all of this. She’s so young and so loved by us and she doesn’t believe either of those things right now.
Links, experiences, resources , blogs, podcasts, anything would help. I worry she could run away or harm herself. We’ll update school and her therapist but we’re adrift and scared.
My throwaway email is tenfanlerrible@gmail.com If you’d rather not write in public or have questions I’ve left out in my distress.
We knew we were a few steps behind her in trying to make it all secure (phone and laptop for school), but it’s become obvious over the last few days how deeply embedded she is with online “friends”. They all make themselves out to be very sweet but slightly vulnerable school girls who tell my daughter how sweet and pretty she is, and how misunderstood she is.
She’s an incredibly bright child who is struggling to engage at school, at home, with irl friends or her pets.
We started her with a therapist last week but we didn’t know the extent of her vulnerability. When she has talked about friends giving her a VPN we thought a school friend. She believes all these online girls are real and hates us for taking away her devices. She’s incredibly tech savvy and is angry, despairing and very very deceitful right now.
We are so worried. We have no idea what she’s seen or sent or done …if anything. But in conversations, now deleted by her, she talked about how much porn she’s been sent and she screen shot a number of “girls” saying they liked her. She keeps telling them she’s not bi, but these “girls” are definitely love bombing her.
When I suggested many were pedophiles who were grooming her trust - she was angry as she believes these tween “girls” in the Maldives and Indonesia and Mexico (with impeccable written English) are true friends.
We are beside ourselves. We don’t know how to protect her. We don’t know how to stop her -she is convinced she is too clever to be conned. And she is also incredibly cunning. She’s 12. She’s angry. She’s sad. And she’s clearly feeling isolated. Please help us with all the advice you can around all of this. She’s so young and so loved by us and she doesn’t believe either of those things right now.
Links, experiences, resources , blogs, podcasts, anything would help. I worry she could run away or harm herself. We’ll update school and her therapist but we’re adrift and scared.
My throwaway email is tenfanlerrible@gmail.com If you’d rather not write in public or have questions I’ve left out in my distress.
I don't have an answer, but I wanted to thank you for being so vigilant about this. I came of age when the internet was really first beginning and struggled with parents who didn't believe much of what I experienced. I can't imagine how much your heart hurts right now. I hope the best for your family.
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:04 PM on June 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:04 PM on June 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
I think to some extent there are limits to what you can do - you are right that taking devices away is not a solution to this problem. It's also developmentally normal now for children to be exploring relationships (and even sexuality) on the internet at this age with strangers.
Have you considered talking to her about how to recognize when a situation would become dangerous, starting from the position that you dont know these friends are dangerous, but there ARE people on the internet looking to exploit 12 year old girls? Its early enough that going over warning signs might set off alarm bells later when she sees them. You can also have some baseline rules that are easy for a kid to follow, like no giving out your address, or let me talk to a parent before Facetiming.
Also, I as a 35-year old woman play a popular video game in teams with 8-year old boys on the internet, with voice and text chat, every day. It will be useful for you to identify for yourself what aspects of internet relationships with strangers are actually dangerous, so that you can better talk to your daughter about how to recognize them.
posted by thelastpolarbear at 11:11 PM on June 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Have you considered talking to her about how to recognize when a situation would become dangerous, starting from the position that you dont know these friends are dangerous, but there ARE people on the internet looking to exploit 12 year old girls? Its early enough that going over warning signs might set off alarm bells later when she sees them. You can also have some baseline rules that are easy for a kid to follow, like no giving out your address, or let me talk to a parent before Facetiming.
Also, I as a 35-year old woman play a popular video game in teams with 8-year old boys on the internet, with voice and text chat, every day. It will be useful for you to identify for yourself what aspects of internet relationships with strangers are actually dangerous, so that you can better talk to your daughter about how to recognize them.
posted by thelastpolarbear at 11:11 PM on June 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Some key warning signs I think could be helpful to talk about to keep the conversation focused on recognizing danger and separating the 'real' friends from the exploiters: obviously requests for sexual or nude pictures, sending porn or bringing up sex descriptively, asking lots of questions about her sexual experience (this is tricky bc that's also normal between girls who are friends, so you can talk about how it can be normal but she should listen to her gut, etc).
This might be a different conversation, but when she is ready I would also consider roleplaying a few different conversations to give her a chance to practice how to set boundaries - "That question makes me uncomfortable, let's talk about something else," or even just talking about how it's ok to block people - even if they are really 12 year old girls, they'll get over it and the internet is full of other future friends!
posted by thelastpolarbear at 11:24 PM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
This might be a different conversation, but when she is ready I would also consider roleplaying a few different conversations to give her a chance to practice how to set boundaries - "That question makes me uncomfortable, let's talk about something else," or even just talking about how it's ok to block people - even if they are really 12 year old girls, they'll get over it and the internet is full of other future friends!
posted by thelastpolarbear at 11:24 PM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is terrible, I'm sorry. It sounds like you are doing the right thing regarding connecting with a therapist and cutting off access for now. One thought that may be helpful for her age would be watching the show Catfish together? I feel like it's dishy enough and sort of oriented to the 12-year-old set that it may get through to her in a way that you as the parent just won't be able to. Also it sounds like she is having trouble connecting with kids IRL - if you are going to cut off her virtual friends, you have to figure out the IRL friend-thing asap. Figure out what she was doing online and find a version of that in your town/city and see if that is a way to help her make friends.
posted by Toddles at 11:25 PM on June 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 11:25 PM on June 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm so sorry this is happening. I would maybe let her keep some of the interactions, so she wouldn't feel so cut off from everyone - but under parental supervision. Or alternatively, change her situation completely, so the reasons that she was looking for approval and love from online friends would go away (eg. if she has problems at school, take her out of school for a week or two. If there is drama from IRL friends, let her stay away from them for a while. etc.)
Try to educate her about catfishing, sexual abuse, pedophilia. Those topics are hard, but having your naivete shattered by an abuser is even harder. Try watching this documentary together: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caught_in_the_Net_(2020_film)
Maybe think about contacting about the police and giving them the info about all these "friends". Sending porn to a 12yo is a crime.
Let her think through some things. Like, why would you need a VPN for communicating with friends? Why were your so-called friends sending you porn even though you said you didn't like it? If they love you so much, why were they doing something you don't want?
posted by gakiko at 2:17 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Try to educate her about catfishing, sexual abuse, pedophilia. Those topics are hard, but having your naivete shattered by an abuser is even harder. Try watching this documentary together: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caught_in_the_Net_(2020_film)
Maybe think about contacting about the police and giving them the info about all these "friends". Sending porn to a 12yo is a crime.
Let her think through some things. Like, why would you need a VPN for communicating with friends? Why were your so-called friends sending you porn even though you said you didn't like it? If they love you so much, why were they doing something you don't want?
posted by gakiko at 2:17 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I worked on this project with an academic who asked girls in that age group about safety on the internet. Perhaps some of the resources there will help.
posted by b33j at 2:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by b33j at 2:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm so sorry for you. You are right to see this as a serious problem.
Unfortunately, I don't have better advice than whatever your child's therapist might recommend, but I am writing now to point out that many pedophiles are very patient. Something that seems innocent now can turn into something very sinister in a couple of years, when you will have even less control of the situation.
And also, even innocent shared pictures can be used for nefarious purposes, for instance by manipulating them. Right now, there is a case here, where a young man has shared hundreds of pictures of children.
Definitely alert the police.
I don't want to be a fear monger, but strangers on the internet are not for unsupervised children. I made sure to meet all my children's real life friends when they were younger, I'd certainly do the same with internet friends.
Maybe a change of school could help your daughter find new friends and interests? This helped both my children when they were in a kind of rut at that age. A friend of one of my children who also changed school at the time had gotten into some internet-based problems that had migrated into real life, and the kids (all her new friends) were so good at helping her get out of it.
One thing that surprised me about her story, that is echoed in some of the current police investigations and court cases in this country, was that the culprits were not very old themselves. They were older, but only by a few years. If the girls were 14 at the time they became friends and the activities had been going on for a while, the perpetrators were perhaps 17-18, and my sense was that their interest was in the money they could make by selling pictures or worse. So while I doubt that your daughter's "friends" are real friends, I know from experience that they can be young kids, which might make them harder to see through.
posted by mumimor at 2:52 AM on June 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
Unfortunately, I don't have better advice than whatever your child's therapist might recommend, but I am writing now to point out that many pedophiles are very patient. Something that seems innocent now can turn into something very sinister in a couple of years, when you will have even less control of the situation.
And also, even innocent shared pictures can be used for nefarious purposes, for instance by manipulating them. Right now, there is a case here, where a young man has shared hundreds of pictures of children.
Definitely alert the police.
I don't want to be a fear monger, but strangers on the internet are not for unsupervised children. I made sure to meet all my children's real life friends when they were younger, I'd certainly do the same with internet friends.
Maybe a change of school could help your daughter find new friends and interests? This helped both my children when they were in a kind of rut at that age. A friend of one of my children who also changed school at the time had gotten into some internet-based problems that had migrated into real life, and the kids (all her new friends) were so good at helping her get out of it.
One thing that surprised me about her story, that is echoed in some of the current police investigations and court cases in this country, was that the culprits were not very old themselves. They were older, but only by a few years. If the girls were 14 at the time they became friends and the activities had been going on for a while, the perpetrators were perhaps 17-18, and my sense was that their interest was in the money they could make by selling pictures or worse. So while I doubt that your daughter's "friends" are real friends, I know from experience that they can be young kids, which might make them harder to see through.
posted by mumimor at 2:52 AM on June 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
JZig: If the only interaction she ever has with someone is online, it honestly doesn't really matter if the other person is who they say they are.
I'm afraid that if this were ever true, it is no longer so. If someone shares nude or nude-adjacent pictures of themselves with someone online, that can come back to bite them in several ways, some of which I don't even want to think about or mention here.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:39 AM on June 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
I'm afraid that if this were ever true, it is no longer so. If someone shares nude or nude-adjacent pictures of themselves with someone online, that can come back to bite them in several ways, some of which I don't even want to think about or mention here.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:39 AM on June 7, 2021 [25 favorites]
I’m sorry this is happening.
I have no personal experience but Bark was recommended to me as parental internet security. I don’t know how easy it is to get around but maybe after watching Catfish or some other suggestions, letting her back on with that set up would allow her more freedom and you the opportunity to know exactly what’s going on.
posted by emkelley at 3:43 AM on June 7, 2021
I have no personal experience but Bark was recommended to me as parental internet security. I don’t know how easy it is to get around but maybe after watching Catfish or some other suggestions, letting her back on with that set up would allow her more freedom and you the opportunity to know exactly what’s going on.
posted by emkelley at 3:43 AM on June 7, 2021
Seconding Too-Ticky that it's definitely not fine just because it stays online. Being coerced into doing things you don't want to do on a webcam is still abuse; being persuaded into sending revealing photos or having sexual text conversations with an adult man who you think is another young girl, is still abuse. A huge proportion of online predators probably don't ever intend on meeting their victims IRL - webcams and the ease of sending photos mean they don't need to. (But you know that, I just wanted to counter the comment above).
I'd ask the school head-on what they do about educating kids on the dangers of online predators. There's a fair chance that they cover it at some point during their school career, maybe her class could happen to have that pushed up so the class happens next week? If her whole class is talking about how stupid you'd have to be to trust a stranger online who gets sexual, that's a pretty big motivator, and probably more so than it coming from her parents.
Are there any profile pictures on the screenshotted conversations that you could reverse image search? That's often a good way of proving that someone is not who they say they are (though it sounds like you might be in a place where trying harder and harder to prove her wrong will make her more and more angry with you.)
Thinking about the wider issues of her being isolated - does your locality have any kind of 'big sister' mentoring scheme? Someone just a little older than her, who gets her, but is a little wiser, and who isn't her parents, might be a good resource for her right now. And seconding trying to get her more IRL activities and relationships but I'm sure that's probably obvious and something you've tried.
posted by penguin pie at 5:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'd ask the school head-on what they do about educating kids on the dangers of online predators. There's a fair chance that they cover it at some point during their school career, maybe her class could happen to have that pushed up so the class happens next week? If her whole class is talking about how stupid you'd have to be to trust a stranger online who gets sexual, that's a pretty big motivator, and probably more so than it coming from her parents.
Are there any profile pictures on the screenshotted conversations that you could reverse image search? That's often a good way of proving that someone is not who they say they are (though it sounds like you might be in a place where trying harder and harder to prove her wrong will make her more and more angry with you.)
Thinking about the wider issues of her being isolated - does your locality have any kind of 'big sister' mentoring scheme? Someone just a little older than her, who gets her, but is a little wiser, and who isn't her parents, might be a good resource for her right now. And seconding trying to get her more IRL activities and relationships but I'm sure that's probably obvious and something you've tried.
posted by penguin pie at 5:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Good on you for catching this. If your child is already feeling vulnerable and isolated from her immediate environment, that can be an 'in' for predators online. They may, as you've said, groom her to further increase a sense of isolation from her surroundings so she will turn to the groomer as an outlet.
This stuck out to me, "When she has talked about friends giving her a VPN we thought a school friend." What in the hell 12-year-old needs some online friend to buy them a VPN? That's a huge huge huge red flag. Source: I was sexually abused starting from her age & the person who groomed me did similar type of stuff, but back in the olden days so more like tried to buy me a private cell phone to exchange communication. I agree with Muminor. Pedophiles are hugely patient- they have personality disorders that drive them to engage in predatory behavior compulsively. The internet is NOT a safe place for children, although there can be more controlled platforms for kids that are safe-ish, with a lot of supervision.
You should wipe all of her accounts because anything that leads people back to her actual identity / communication is unsafe. She can restart any approved social media w your permission & you need to police those accounts. "Exploring sexuality" is NOT what something kids should be doing with adults online. Playing spin the bottle with classmates is a vastly different type of exploration- and I mean, even then, there are risks of kids being exploited.
She will not like you for this, and that's FINE. She's a CHILD. Your kids don't have to like you when you're doing your job of protecting them from malevolent, literally soul-eating predatorial adults. She'll like you when she's older and smarter. The fact that she's pushing back so hard against you tells me something is absolutely going on.
Put your kid into IRL activities, like arts and crafts, whatever sport, cooking classes, sewing classes, hiking, bee-keeping, knitting, volunteering, ANYTHING, with TRUSTED, VETTED adults around. Stay vigilant. It's not an exaggeration to say that there are people looking to take advantage around every corner. It's not enough to say anymore "we didn't know." We, the adults, DO know. We know the stories, we know the statistics, we know the playbook for grooming, we know the types of places that draw these people. KIDS DO NOT. They don't get it. They shouldn't have to. It doesn't matter if she's unhappy with your decision to lockdown her online presence now, bc again, she is a child and this is your job.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [42 favorites]
This stuck out to me, "When she has talked about friends giving her a VPN we thought a school friend." What in the hell 12-year-old needs some online friend to buy them a VPN? That's a huge huge huge red flag. Source: I was sexually abused starting from her age & the person who groomed me did similar type of stuff, but back in the olden days so more like tried to buy me a private cell phone to exchange communication. I agree with Muminor. Pedophiles are hugely patient- they have personality disorders that drive them to engage in predatory behavior compulsively. The internet is NOT a safe place for children, although there can be more controlled platforms for kids that are safe-ish, with a lot of supervision.
You should wipe all of her accounts because anything that leads people back to her actual identity / communication is unsafe. She can restart any approved social media w your permission & you need to police those accounts. "Exploring sexuality" is NOT what something kids should be doing with adults online. Playing spin the bottle with classmates is a vastly different type of exploration- and I mean, even then, there are risks of kids being exploited.
She will not like you for this, and that's FINE. She's a CHILD. Your kids don't have to like you when you're doing your job of protecting them from malevolent, literally soul-eating predatorial adults. She'll like you when she's older and smarter. The fact that she's pushing back so hard against you tells me something is absolutely going on.
Put your kid into IRL activities, like arts and crafts, whatever sport, cooking classes, sewing classes, hiking, bee-keeping, knitting, volunteering, ANYTHING, with TRUSTED, VETTED adults around. Stay vigilant. It's not an exaggeration to say that there are people looking to take advantage around every corner. It's not enough to say anymore "we didn't know." We, the adults, DO know. We know the stories, we know the statistics, we know the playbook for grooming, we know the types of places that draw these people. KIDS DO NOT. They don't get it. They shouldn't have to. It doesn't matter if she's unhappy with your decision to lockdown her online presence now, bc again, she is a child and this is your job.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:35 AM on June 7, 2021 [42 favorites]
I agree with a lot of what's been said but wanted to nth the idea of getting her into in-person activities with kids her own age as soon as possible, and looking for opportunities for her to contribute and volunteer in a safe environment. The more pull you can give reality -- a place where she can feel equally empowered and engaged and start to build a community outside of her school -- the better.
I'm 100% biased but I think martial arts is one activity to consider and it has the advantage of explicitly teaching awareness of both your body and your environment.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:45 AM on June 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
I'm 100% biased but I think martial arts is one activity to consider and it has the advantage of explicitly teaching awareness of both your body and your environment.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:45 AM on June 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
Ugh, this is really difficult. I agree with everyone who has suggested trying to make some real life changes- new activities, hobbies, switching schools if she is miserable there. I also agree that taking away devices is not the answer, and that online interaction with strangers is incredibly common at that age (and some of these online friends are likely real kids who are not looking to deceive or harm her). Where is she meeting them? Are there maybe some more positive online communities you could suggest she wander into, based on her interests?
It might be hard if she's really in a bad space right now, but I would try and educate about warning signs/red flags as suggested upthread. But I think it is really important when you do this to take the position that online friends are okay, show her that you understand she is getting support from some of these folks and that it is possible and fine to have friends in online spaces. Don't focus on whether her friends are real, focus on the list of behaviors that are problematic in an online space with people she doesn't know irl. Tell her that it is important she DOES NOT ENGAGE further and tells you if she encounters any of those flags. Communicate that you trust her to chat online, but that she has to be smart about it because there are so many pedophiles, scammers, etc. Reiterate that she should not give out real life info like her address because that could put all of you at risk.
Good on you for being aware, getting her hooked up with a therapist, and trying to problem solve this. Being a 12 yo girl who isn't fitting in with her peers is SO hard.
posted by DTMFA at 6:09 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
It might be hard if she's really in a bad space right now, but I would try and educate about warning signs/red flags as suggested upthread. But I think it is really important when you do this to take the position that online friends are okay, show her that you understand she is getting support from some of these folks and that it is possible and fine to have friends in online spaces. Don't focus on whether her friends are real, focus on the list of behaviors that are problematic in an online space with people she doesn't know irl. Tell her that it is important she DOES NOT ENGAGE further and tells you if she encounters any of those flags. Communicate that you trust her to chat online, but that she has to be smart about it because there are so many pedophiles, scammers, etc. Reiterate that she should not give out real life info like her address because that could put all of you at risk.
Good on you for being aware, getting her hooked up with a therapist, and trying to problem solve this. Being a 12 yo girl who isn't fitting in with her peers is SO hard.
posted by DTMFA at 6:09 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I used a keylogger for my most at-risk kid and wouldn't hesitate now because they were under 16 and high risk. However that kid wasn't very computer savvy. I would NOT ban online access outright because they are resourceful and will find ways to make contact and then not tell you - ours used friends' and school access. And now life for kids is so completely tied to online that even her IRL friendships will need online access.
Give her access using the computer with you in the same room and establish firm rules that she has worked with you on - not handed down from on high but negotiated.
Talk openly with her about pornography online and why there's age appropriate talk about sex (she's 12! kids do talk about this stuff a bit) and about what should be red flags. Is she old enough/precociously curious for scarleteens? Factual non-shame based talk about sex demystifies it and also gives her room to say "I'm not ready for that and that doesn't make me weird" which is a message I don't think girls get enough of. Work with her on putting together a safe image/safe words filter so she can browse with more freedom.
I would definitely have freaked out over the friend giving a VPN and the porn images too, you're not overreacting but you have to focus on building a good open communication with her, not higher fences around her.
Loneliness in awkward kids is hard. We're using outschool.com for online holiday and school activities, and they have social clubs for tweens and special interest groups. You could enroll her in a paid online language class or d&d group - there's lots more online activities where just showing up regularly helps build friendships.
Also it is SUPER common for kids her age to be sharing info. Our kid's school has had to repeatedly drill it into their heads. Kids give out that info online for shopping, forms etc, and they don't see the risk the way we grew up with it.
How did she meet these 'girls'? If it's in an activity-based fan forum of some sort, find a similar online group and encourage her to start over with a new safe online identity so she can find friends again.
Also super liking the idea of video chatting with these friends to verify they are teens like her. I have actually done that for some of my kids' friends to check in that the other kid's parents are aware and cool with the online chats etc and it is mildly embarrassing for the kid but much better than being banned.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
Give her access using the computer with you in the same room and establish firm rules that she has worked with you on - not handed down from on high but negotiated.
Talk openly with her about pornography online and why there's age appropriate talk about sex (she's 12! kids do talk about this stuff a bit) and about what should be red flags. Is she old enough/precociously curious for scarleteens? Factual non-shame based talk about sex demystifies it and also gives her room to say "I'm not ready for that and that doesn't make me weird" which is a message I don't think girls get enough of. Work with her on putting together a safe image/safe words filter so she can browse with more freedom.
I would definitely have freaked out over the friend giving a VPN and the porn images too, you're not overreacting but you have to focus on building a good open communication with her, not higher fences around her.
Loneliness in awkward kids is hard. We're using outschool.com for online holiday and school activities, and they have social clubs for tweens and special interest groups. You could enroll her in a paid online language class or d&d group - there's lots more online activities where just showing up regularly helps build friendships.
Also it is SUPER common for kids her age to be sharing info. Our kid's school has had to repeatedly drill it into their heads. Kids give out that info online for shopping, forms etc, and they don't see the risk the way we grew up with it.
How did she meet these 'girls'? If it's in an activity-based fan forum of some sort, find a similar online group and encourage her to start over with a new safe online identity so she can find friends again.
Also super liking the idea of video chatting with these friends to verify they are teens like her. I have actually done that for some of my kids' friends to check in that the other kid's parents are aware and cool with the online chats etc and it is mildly embarrassing for the kid but much better than being banned.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
PS: Don't punish your child for being exploited by adults. At this point, nothing she does is her responsibility in the sense of the word the way we think about it normally. The only people who bear responsibility in this situation are the adults involved, IE the parents & the predators. Set up consequences for breaking any boundaries/expectations (not "rules" bc kids hate the word rules) and make those boundaries & consequences crystal clear & enforce them consistently. However, this should be normal type boundary enforcement, not shaming the child or using violent speech or action as a way to "punish" or de-motivate the child. Reward the child for following the boundaries (positive reinforcement) as well. Keep the lines of discussion open. Always keep the goal in mind, which is keeping your child away from predators and vice versa.
I thought a bit more about the VPN and I am hugely scared for your child. The only reason this would be a thing is if the predator who also has a VPN wants a secure connection that can't be hacked or tracked bc very illegal and immoral activities are going on and the predator wants to secure both ends to make sure their own ass is covered from potentially getting busted.
posted by erattacorrige at 7:07 AM on June 7, 2021 [20 favorites]
I thought a bit more about the VPN and I am hugely scared for your child. The only reason this would be a thing is if the predator who also has a VPN wants a secure connection that can't be hacked or tracked bc very illegal and immoral activities are going on and the predator wants to secure both ends to make sure their own ass is covered from potentially getting busted.
posted by erattacorrige at 7:07 AM on June 7, 2021 [20 favorites]
I am not a parent, just a internet nerd with friends who are parents. Can you treat her online friends like irl friends and talk to them AND their parents via video chat? I am just thinking of how you could handle separating out real kids from predatory adults. Additionally, it would give you parents to talk to if your two children are getting into dicey territory, as even healthy kids might do.
And of course, it would weed out the predators pretty quickly (I think). She may resist because of that, but it’s also much easier to point out unsavory behavior if they’re resisting very basic getting to know you info.
Just make sure it’s video chat so you don’t get predator acting like the parent, and have you and your daughter and them and their child for the first chat.
I would suggest she pick 3 friends she wants to keep speaking to, and sit with her while she tells them her parents need to speak with their parents. Give her a script, tell her it’s okay to say “Mom/Dad is being annoying...” or whatever kid speak is. It also honestly will be a powerful lesson in learning what evasive behavior looks like as it sounds like for sure many of these kids aren’t. Kids her age will be used to parents talking to parents, so the request isn’t particularly unusual.
If it goes well with the 3, you can do another 3, etc...
Others here can tell me if I’m off base, I’m just thinking of how you’d handle this with people in the physical world, and meeting the parents is a powerful tool for vetting the safety of situations and friendship that everyone has used since forever and that’s why.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:10 AM on June 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
And of course, it would weed out the predators pretty quickly (I think). She may resist because of that, but it’s also much easier to point out unsavory behavior if they’re resisting very basic getting to know you info.
Just make sure it’s video chat so you don’t get predator acting like the parent, and have you and your daughter and them and their child for the first chat.
I would suggest she pick 3 friends she wants to keep speaking to, and sit with her while she tells them her parents need to speak with their parents. Give her a script, tell her it’s okay to say “Mom/Dad is being annoying...” or whatever kid speak is. It also honestly will be a powerful lesson in learning what evasive behavior looks like as it sounds like for sure many of these kids aren’t. Kids her age will be used to parents talking to parents, so the request isn’t particularly unusual.
If it goes well with the 3, you can do another 3, etc...
Others here can tell me if I’m off base, I’m just thinking of how you’d handle this with people in the physical world, and meeting the parents is a powerful tool for vetting the safety of situations and friendship that everyone has used since forever and that’s why.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:10 AM on June 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
First -- the pornography is deeply worrying, and I don't want to understate that.
I do want to nth the idea of finding a way to verify some of her friends' identities (through videochat or whatever). I say this because I too was a bright twelve-year-old who had no IRL friends, and so my whole social life was on the internet (this was back in the 90s). I'd met them through an interest forum, and I am still friends with some of them today. They weren't catfishing or grooming, they were just other slightly weird adolescents and young adults. If my parents had cut me off from those friendships -- truly the only ones I had! -- it would have been really hard for me, so I definitely feel for your daughter here.
Which is just to say: if there is a way to verify the legitimacy of some of these "girls", it might be worth finding it. I can't imagine they're allgroomers. Or if you can tag her into other online groups where she would be more likely to meet appropriate peers.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:14 AM on June 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
I do want to nth the idea of finding a way to verify some of her friends' identities (through videochat or whatever). I say this because I too was a bright twelve-year-old who had no IRL friends, and so my whole social life was on the internet (this was back in the 90s). I'd met them through an interest forum, and I am still friends with some of them today. They weren't catfishing or grooming, they were just other slightly weird adolescents and young adults. If my parents had cut me off from those friendships -- truly the only ones I had! -- it would have been really hard for me, so I definitely feel for your daughter here.
Which is just to say: if there is a way to verify the legitimacy of some of these "girls", it might be worth finding it. I can't imagine they're allgroomers. Or if you can tag her into other online groups where she would be more likely to meet appropriate peers.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:14 AM on June 7, 2021 [15 favorites]
I don't think the VPN is necessarily worrying on its own. I got a VPN in middle school because my school had firewalls that blocked my access to social sites.
My parents did something similar to me at her age that I've had a really hard time recovering from. Be careful how you handle this - their response gave me some pretty serious privacy/boundary issues I still struggle with today. I did not trust my mom for a very long time and still don't talk to my father.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 8:00 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
My parents did something similar to me at her age that I've had a really hard time recovering from. Be careful how you handle this - their response gave me some pretty serious privacy/boundary issues I still struggle with today. I did not trust my mom for a very long time and still don't talk to my father.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 8:00 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I was recently in a similar situation with my daughter. It was a reverse image search that finally broke the spell. Has this person sent any photos of "themselves"?
posted by diogenes at 9:33 AM on June 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 9:33 AM on June 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
I really hope you aren't feeling ashamed of this. It's going to happen to a lot of us with teenage daughters. Mine is 10 and I see that things could head this way for us and I'm so grateful you posted this question. I am reading the suggestions here carefully. I know my daughter has online 'friends' in other countries. I know they say they are kids her age, but there is no way to verify.
You have to tread carefully because as you've said, she's a bit of a wild card right now and you really don't want to alienate her. It's hard to make suggestions because I don't know her personality. I use humor a lot with my kiddo. Like, I tease in silly voices, I might say something like "Hi my name is Boo123 and I play online and pretend to be a kid but I'm actually a creepy weirdo and I have 17 cats but no real friends and by the way I never wear pants!" She'll giggle and I hope she get's the message. Similarly, she learned what sex was in school last week (official curriculum which I oops didn't realize was about to happen) and so we ended up peeing our pants laughing about the poor kid who was sent out of the room and how he'll never know where babies come from. This works for my kid because the humor online she likes is often so fill with absurdity - all the tik tok videos and you tubers.
Just know that the anger and rejections of what you are telling her - these are normal, they are not your fault. She's 12. It will pass. Shower her with love (I know you do).
Finally, and you know this, check up on what she's doing. I haven't done this enough myself. Luckily, she uses my google account for a lot of things (there are really embarrassing comments on a lot of YouTube videos with my actual name, which would make me seem like - a 10 year old, I guess). I know her Roblox password. I also know she sneakily downloads apps I've told her she can't, like Tik Tok. She's pretty cunning too.
Finally, while I do get a lot of stomping and cold shouldering when I lay down the law, I think it's ok to say "We are now looking at everything you do online BECAUSE I SAID SO". When I pull out BECAUSE I SAID SO, she gets mad, but so far gets over it.
God I'm rooting for you. And all of us with teenage daughters.
posted by kitcat at 9:34 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
You have to tread carefully because as you've said, she's a bit of a wild card right now and you really don't want to alienate her. It's hard to make suggestions because I don't know her personality. I use humor a lot with my kiddo. Like, I tease in silly voices, I might say something like "Hi my name is Boo123 and I play online and pretend to be a kid but I'm actually a creepy weirdo and I have 17 cats but no real friends and by the way I never wear pants!" She'll giggle and I hope she get's the message. Similarly, she learned what sex was in school last week (official curriculum which I oops didn't realize was about to happen) and so we ended up peeing our pants laughing about the poor kid who was sent out of the room and how he'll never know where babies come from. This works for my kid because the humor online she likes is often so fill with absurdity - all the tik tok videos and you tubers.
Just know that the anger and rejections of what you are telling her - these are normal, they are not your fault. She's 12. It will pass. Shower her with love (I know you do).
Finally, and you know this, check up on what she's doing. I haven't done this enough myself. Luckily, she uses my google account for a lot of things (there are really embarrassing comments on a lot of YouTube videos with my actual name, which would make me seem like - a 10 year old, I guess). I know her Roblox password. I also know she sneakily downloads apps I've told her she can't, like Tik Tok. She's pretty cunning too.
Finally, while I do get a lot of stomping and cold shouldering when I lay down the law, I think it's ok to say "We are now looking at everything you do online BECAUSE I SAID SO". When I pull out BECAUSE I SAID SO, she gets mad, but so far gets over it.
God I'm rooting for you. And all of us with teenage daughters.
posted by kitcat at 9:34 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
One thing I thought about after posting above is: from very early on, my ex and I agreed that the kids and their friends should always be able to tell us if something was going wrong, or call us if they needed help, even if whatever they had done/were doing was illegal or wrong. I think it might be hard for you to build that trust right now and here, (don't worry, you can still get there), but if so, do you have a relative or friend or is there a teacher at her school who can take on that role?
I thought of it because the girl I mentioned in my earlier reply once almost killed herself drinking strong liquor while her mother was at work, and we were who they called. My ex called the ambulance and went to the hospital with the girl, and I took care of another girl who was also very sick, but well enough to be "home". And we talked with the parents so the girls didn't have to.
The internet predators often use the children's sense of shame and fear to blackmail them into doing things they don't want to do. Having a real adult friend or parents you can confide in can really mean a lot, specially because the predators are good at creating fear out of nothing.
Building trust as a parent is slow work, and not done in the middle of a crisis. But it is not opposed to having rules. I have been a quite strict parent in some ways, we have had food and eating rules, bedtime rules, screen time rules, a very harsh law against whining, rules about hair and general cleanliness and basic politeness, and some random bans that were about stuff I hate and the kids would have to do with other people: bad TV and amusement parks. You are not your daughter's friends, you are her parents. She will not resent you for parenting, in the long run.
But the best way to build that trust is to do things together, and do it often. Hike, play a world-building game, cook or bake, go shopping, travel somewhere (it doesn't have to be far). In those situations, it comes naturally to mention that time when you were ten and something really scary happened. Or how happy you were when she was born. Little things that remind her that you love her and can feel her.
I was much better at this with my second child than with my first, even though I knew I wanted to do this. With my first, I needed professional help to learn it after a serious crisis, different from yours. I hope your therapist can help you too.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on June 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
I thought of it because the girl I mentioned in my earlier reply once almost killed herself drinking strong liquor while her mother was at work, and we were who they called. My ex called the ambulance and went to the hospital with the girl, and I took care of another girl who was also very sick, but well enough to be "home". And we talked with the parents so the girls didn't have to.
The internet predators often use the children's sense of shame and fear to blackmail them into doing things they don't want to do. Having a real adult friend or parents you can confide in can really mean a lot, specially because the predators are good at creating fear out of nothing.
Building trust as a parent is slow work, and not done in the middle of a crisis. But it is not opposed to having rules. I have been a quite strict parent in some ways, we have had food and eating rules, bedtime rules, screen time rules, a very harsh law against whining, rules about hair and general cleanliness and basic politeness, and some random bans that were about stuff I hate and the kids would have to do with other people: bad TV and amusement parks. You are not your daughter's friends, you are her parents. She will not resent you for parenting, in the long run.
But the best way to build that trust is to do things together, and do it often. Hike, play a world-building game, cook or bake, go shopping, travel somewhere (it doesn't have to be far). In those situations, it comes naturally to mention that time when you were ten and something really scary happened. Or how happy you were when she was born. Little things that remind her that you love her and can feel her.
I was much better at this with my second child than with my first, even though I knew I wanted to do this. With my first, I needed professional help to learn it after a serious crisis, different from yours. I hope your therapist can help you too.
posted by mumimor at 11:23 AM on June 7, 2021 [11 favorites]
Oh, boy. You very probably need to get law enforcement involved, if you haven't yet. Before someone tells her not just to delete things, but to scrub hard drives.
There's some answers here that are far too naive. Please don't be.
posted by stormyteal at 11:24 AM on June 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
There's some answers here that are far too naive. Please don't be.
posted by stormyteal at 11:24 AM on June 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
I’m not sure what your location is, but there’s bound to be a Youth Advocacy Center near you, these places specialize in therapy and interviewing for children who are victims of sexual predation.
The VPN and the Pornography are deeply concerning, Having worked professionally for years specifically with sex offenders in both treatment and law enforcement capacities.
I can not understate the importance of getting her in front of an expert child interviewer and therapist, this is a deeply complicated problem that reeks of grooming and needs to be handled by an expert team.
I recommend the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children which offers both a peer support line for you and her, 866-305-HOPE, which is staffed by victims of child sexual exploitation and their family members as well as help locating local therapists who specialize ( (contact familysupport@ncmec.org or 1-877-446-2632 ext. 6117). Do not forget to take care of yourself, this is trauma.
Edited to add peer support line phone number.
posted by LastAtlanticWalrus at 12:24 PM on June 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
The VPN and the Pornography are deeply concerning, Having worked professionally for years specifically with sex offenders in both treatment and law enforcement capacities.
I can not understate the importance of getting her in front of an expert child interviewer and therapist, this is a deeply complicated problem that reeks of grooming and needs to be handled by an expert team.
I recommend the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children which offers both a peer support line for you and her, 866-305-HOPE, which is staffed by victims of child sexual exploitation and their family members as well as help locating local therapists who specialize ( (contact familysupport@ncmec.org or 1-877-446-2632 ext. 6117). Do not forget to take care of yourself, this is trauma.
Edited to add peer support line phone number.
posted by LastAtlanticWalrus at 12:24 PM on June 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
From a MeFite who would prefer to remain anon:
OP: I saw this exact grooming process happen via Instagram DMs in my immediate family. The same love-bombing, the same queer boundary-pushing, the same emotional hooks, fake sympathy, everything. The story is identical, just gender-reversed.posted by jessamyn at 4:14 PM on June 7, 2021 [31 favorites]
In the case of my family member, who is the same age as your daughter, they were eventually convinced to send naked and compromising photographs, some of which may have represented acts outside their normal sexuality. At this point, the group of people used these photos as tools of shame.
This is their mechanism. The photos are blackmail. The groomers demanded passwords to every account and computer and phone in the house. They then used this to map out the family and friends of my family member, which they used to threaten and control EVEN MORE. They threatened many things, and demanded more pictures, which they received. They also started demanding large sums of money ($5k at a time).
My family member never told any of us any of this as it was happening, and they hid it, but they were very actively engaged with the groomers. When we discovered a small part of what was happening, I asked very specific questions of family member and they denied everything (we have previously had a very trusting relationship). Eventually they made up some cover stories about being "hacked" which were obvious lies, but they refused to be honest. The main reason I started looking at things more closely is that family member became suicidal and expressed it. They were able to reach out about this but not the blackmail.
Once the hacking stories came out, we took them to law enforcement to give an account of the hacking. This may sound extreme or inexplicable but there is some history that made this the right move. Law enforcement (who in our case had experience with hacking/grooming/pedophiles) were very harsh and straightforward once family member started lying to them. They said "It couldn't have happened that way. Tell the truth". That is when we learned the full story. We were absolutely floored.
I strongly advise you to take control of this situation and all accounts/devices, and involve some kind of law enforcement. In our case it was the sheriff's office and FBI. Instagram, the platform, was involved somehow but only superficially or through law enforcement. Most of the attacking accounts were closed and some data was recovered as part of the investigation, which really went nowhere.
Later on, family member continued contact with at least one of these parties, which I again accidentally discovered. It's still not clear what's happening yet, but the mental and emotional hooks are deep and powerful. Do not underestimate these people. Get law enforcement involved and do not doubt your instincts here. This is serious.
What come to mind is the books about combatting cult mind control by Steve Hassan. When' dealing with destructive influence there s a playbook to follow e.g. maintain a non-judgmental stance, keep in regular contact, be extremely cautious in directly criticizing who they are involved with because that will activate defenses that the other has implanted in her mind, try to engage her own sense of critical thinking and her own sense of what's right for her. With that said I would defer to the people in this thread suggesting you just lock down her accounts since you are in a position to do that and the stakes are so high. I'm thinking more about long term, how can you set her up to gradually take control over her online communications in a way that lets her build her own capacities.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:52 PM on June 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:52 PM on June 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm going to raise the possibility that your daughter is on the autism spectrum. I say this because we autistics tend to be isolated, not great at forming relationships, and thus vulnerable to exploitation. I'm quite sure I could have wound up in your daughter's situation had I been born more recently.
If that's the case, look around for IRL places where she can hang with fellow autistic kids. If there are communities for board games, cosplay, makerspaces, etc that's a great place to find other autistic kids.
Putting an autistic kid into a social situation with mostly neurotypical kids is likely to backfire. Many neurotypical kids just flat out reject autistic kids no matter how hard the autistic kids mask... and there are junior predators and manipulators too. Better to try to find autistic-friendly spaces.
You don't necessarily have to go through the expensive and often unreliable assessment process. Reading books like Sarah Hendrickx' Women and Girls With Autism Spectrum Disorder is a great place to start.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:58 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
If that's the case, look around for IRL places where she can hang with fellow autistic kids. If there are communities for board games, cosplay, makerspaces, etc that's a great place to find other autistic kids.
Putting an autistic kid into a social situation with mostly neurotypical kids is likely to backfire. Many neurotypical kids just flat out reject autistic kids no matter how hard the autistic kids mask... and there are junior predators and manipulators too. Better to try to find autistic-friendly spaces.
You don't necessarily have to go through the expensive and often unreliable assessment process. Reading books like Sarah Hendrickx' Women and Girls With Autism Spectrum Disorder is a great place to start.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:58 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm not the OP, but get law enforcement involved how? There's no obvious crime being committed yet.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:34 PM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Omnomnom at 9:34 PM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you are not skilled in accessing the data, try to find a person who is to do it for you. You need to know what the back and forth communication has been, where she has revealed her personal info, etc. I don't know how to find this computer person, but others on metafilter might.
posted by KayQuestions at 9:44 PM on June 7, 2021
posted by KayQuestions at 9:44 PM on June 7, 2021
Grooming a child is actually a crime in many jurisdictions, "no obvious crime" my arse. Example (Australian). More examples from around the world including parts of the USA.
You should get the advice of your local law enforcement's child abuse people ASAP.
posted by Coaticass at 1:29 AM on June 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
You should get the advice of your local law enforcement's child abuse people ASAP.
posted by Coaticass at 1:29 AM on June 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
My workplace recently hosted a talk by Susan McLean, one of Australia's leading experts on this topic, she had a lot of blood-curdling stories. You might find some useful advice here? Or someone similar who is closer to home?
posted by Coaticass at 1:41 AM on June 8, 2021
posted by Coaticass at 1:41 AM on June 8, 2021
Yes, don't try to handle this on your own. Call the police.
Also, your child may unwittingly become involved in criminal acts herself, if she shares images with other children, and I think you should talk with her about this risk right away, in a non-confrontational way. Just calmly explain that it can happen for children who have no criminal intent at all. In this country, over 1.000 under-18s have been convicted for sharing sexual images on Facebook. The case started with the FBI contacting the authorities here, this a crime that knows no borders.
posted by mumimor at 2:23 AM on June 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, your child may unwittingly become involved in criminal acts herself, if she shares images with other children, and I think you should talk with her about this risk right away, in a non-confrontational way. Just calmly explain that it can happen for children who have no criminal intent at all. In this country, over 1.000 under-18s have been convicted for sharing sexual images on Facebook. The case started with the FBI contacting the authorities here, this a crime that knows no borders.
posted by mumimor at 2:23 AM on June 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
The riskiest place to be, in any situation, is in between. Transitions from one state to another are where vulnerabilities are exploited. This is a truth universally acknowledged across just about any spectrum.
That's why pre-teens are IMO the most emotionally vulnerable age group there is. They are moving from being a child into being an adult. Every risk is amplified, every insecurity can be preyed upon. They become objects of action by those who sit and wait on the sidelines of developmental transition, looking for EXACTLY the sort of person it sounds like your daughter is.
In this particular transition state, the pre-teen is not only moving to a new state, they WANT to move to the new state. They choose behaviors and actions that they feel will speed that transition, because in their eyes, it will most quickly change them into the optimal version of themselves. In their haste to "level up," they lose objectivity and normalize risk. They seek and accept guidance from those predators who have laid their nets.
If she is in therapy, is there attention being paid to this dynamic? What are your daughter's self-image beliefs? Is there an opportunity for her therapist to assist in pulling aside the curtain and giving another trusted adult's voice of reason?
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:33 AM on June 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's why pre-teens are IMO the most emotionally vulnerable age group there is. They are moving from being a child into being an adult. Every risk is amplified, every insecurity can be preyed upon. They become objects of action by those who sit and wait on the sidelines of developmental transition, looking for EXACTLY the sort of person it sounds like your daughter is.
In this particular transition state, the pre-teen is not only moving to a new state, they WANT to move to the new state. They choose behaviors and actions that they feel will speed that transition, because in their eyes, it will most quickly change them into the optimal version of themselves. In their haste to "level up," they lose objectivity and normalize risk. They seek and accept guidance from those predators who have laid their nets.
If she is in therapy, is there attention being paid to this dynamic? What are your daughter's self-image beliefs? Is there an opportunity for her therapist to assist in pulling aside the curtain and giving another trusted adult's voice of reason?
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:33 AM on June 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
I came to make a point similar to mumimor's. You don't want to, for instance, take a computer to be repaired and find out someone sent your family member illegal images and that those have been downloaded, either innocently or with no real sense of the implications.
posted by BibiRose at 6:03 AM on June 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:03 AM on June 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
One commenter above postulated that these putative friends can’t all be groomers. I want to say that they absolutely can be, especially if she’s meeting them all in the same way. This isn’t like a series of independent coin tosses. I can think of a couple different paths by which having one abuser could beget more.
I also had online friends as a teen, some older and male, who were important to my developing sense of self. I want to stress that none of these friends ever sent me pornography, told me repeatedly that they loved me, or tried to move our communications to platforms hidden from law enforcement. None of this is normal.
Please update us if you can. I feel for your family.
posted by eirias at 11:42 AM on June 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
I also had online friends as a teen, some older and male, who were important to my developing sense of self. I want to stress that none of these friends ever sent me pornography, told me repeatedly that they loved me, or tried to move our communications to platforms hidden from law enforcement. None of this is normal.
Please update us if you can. I feel for your family.
posted by eirias at 11:42 AM on June 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
Some of this Australian advice may be applicable where you are. Or maybe there are similar organisations in your jurisdiction.
Australian eSafety Commissioner.
CyberSafety Solutions, as linked above: Main Page.
posted by Coaticass at 2:58 PM on June 8, 2021
Australian eSafety Commissioner.
CyberSafety Solutions, as linked above: Main Page.
posted by Coaticass at 2:58 PM on June 8, 2021
She’s so young and so loved by us and she doesn’t believe either of those things right now.
I don't think that's necessarily it. To believe that your parents love you is no help when your great fear is that they are the only people who love you. The closer she is to understanding you're probably right, that her "friends" aren't real and don't want anything good for her, the angrier and more ashamed and gullible and stupid she will feel. Of course she's a child who couldn't have known better. but it is humiliating to be be told that about yourself. probably more so at 12 than ever again.
like - you are adults and worried sick about life-and-death harm and trauma to her but she is a child and worried about the absolute shame and humiliation of being unable to tell the difference between being liked and being manipulated. she's not afraid of what you're afraid of, she's afraid of being proven gullible and exposed as friendless.
I think it is worth considering whether heavy explicit arguments about pedophile manipulation tactics is the best approach. and the suggestion of forcing her into a position where she has to find out in front of you via video-chat challenge that her friends aren't real? might it not be better to simply treat her as the child she is and say, No secret communication with friends unless we've met them and met their parents, and if it's not possible to meet them because they live far away or don't want to, that's just too bad.
you have to keep her safe no matter what, that's not in question. but it might be kinder to be the strict jerks who won't let her talk to her online friends, than to be the saintly loving parents forcing her to admit her "friends" aren't friends and don't care about her. she'll get over hating you sooner than she'll get over hating herself.
but if her therapist disagrees I imagine her therapist knows best.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:47 PM on June 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't think that's necessarily it. To believe that your parents love you is no help when your great fear is that they are the only people who love you. The closer she is to understanding you're probably right, that her "friends" aren't real and don't want anything good for her, the angrier and more ashamed and gullible and stupid she will feel. Of course she's a child who couldn't have known better. but it is humiliating to be be told that about yourself. probably more so at 12 than ever again.
like - you are adults and worried sick about life-and-death harm and trauma to her but she is a child and worried about the absolute shame and humiliation of being unable to tell the difference between being liked and being manipulated. she's not afraid of what you're afraid of, she's afraid of being proven gullible and exposed as friendless.
I think it is worth considering whether heavy explicit arguments about pedophile manipulation tactics is the best approach. and the suggestion of forcing her into a position where she has to find out in front of you via video-chat challenge that her friends aren't real? might it not be better to simply treat her as the child she is and say, No secret communication with friends unless we've met them and met their parents, and if it's not possible to meet them because they live far away or don't want to, that's just too bad.
you have to keep her safe no matter what, that's not in question. but it might be kinder to be the strict jerks who won't let her talk to her online friends, than to be the saintly loving parents forcing her to admit her "friends" aren't friends and don't care about her. she'll get over hating you sooner than she'll get over hating herself.
but if her therapist disagrees I imagine her therapist knows best.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:47 PM on June 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm glad you are there to help your daughter. For those that recommend video chatting, I'm here to say that you can't trust that anymore either.
* Middle-age women pretends to be in her twenties, cheated boyfriend out of 6M yuan (link)
* 58-year-old Chinese woman who used video filter to pose as younger 'cute goddess' exposed after technical glitch (link)
* Popular female biker unmasked as 50-year-old man in Japan (link)
* NVIDIA is putting out AI products combined with video management. (link to latest GTC conference)
As these demonstrate, be careful trusting what you seen on video. Frankly, these make me not trust anything I see on video anymore.
posted by rw at 1:10 PM on June 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
* Middle-age women pretends to be in her twenties, cheated boyfriend out of 6M yuan (link)
* 58-year-old Chinese woman who used video filter to pose as younger 'cute goddess' exposed after technical glitch (link)
* Popular female biker unmasked as 50-year-old man in Japan (link)
* NVIDIA is putting out AI products combined with video management. (link to latest GTC conference)
As these demonstrate, be careful trusting what you seen on video. Frankly, these make me not trust anything I see on video anymore.
posted by rw at 1:10 PM on June 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
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posted by loulou718 at 10:46 PM on June 6, 2021 [21 favorites]