My best friend believes in anti-vax COVID conspiracies. How do I cope?
June 5, 2021 7:08 PM Subscribe
My left-wing, socially-conscious best friend is suddenly terrified of the COVID-19 vaccine and is refusing to get it. She has been extremely careful and has followed all the guidelines during the pandemic, and is not an anti-masker nor part of right-wing circles. I assumed she was totally fine with COVID vaccination until today, so this is out of the blue.
I've tried having a calm conversation with her about the facts and her fears, but I'm not going to change her mind any time soon. How do I emotionally and morally cope with this without cutting her off?
This has seriously shaken me. My most beloved, lifelong friend in the world (she's essentially family to me, and is a huge part of my support system) is usually very socially conscious, science-forward and left-wing. She's a wonderful, intelligent, and deeply compassionate person, so our political/social stances have always pretty much aligned ... Until today.
I was texting her that I'd finally gotten an appointment for a vaccine (yay!) when she suddenly said that she'd read "concerning" things about the vaccines in general, and was wondering if it was okay to tell me what she'd found but was worried it'd make me anxious. I agreed to let her tell me since I thought it was maybe just a few worries about stuff I'd already read (the low chances of a blood-clot with the AZ vaccine, possible side-effects for a few days, something like that), but it wasn't.
Instead, she said she was really scared the vaccine might kill me with an untreatable blood clot, that it isn't effective at cutting transmission or preventing COVID, that it's potentially "toxic" and unsafe in the long term, that Big Pharma is hiding data from us, and that she's super worried about me getting it, even though she does respect my choice + bodily autonomy to do so, and understands my fear around COVID. She then sent me articles from anti-vax 5G conspiracy sites, and videos from "doctors" who were casting doubt on the vaccine's effectiveness.
I tried to contain my shock and have a gentle conversation about it, since I could tell that this was all coming from a place of deep panic about her friends and she is just really misinformed and worried; it isn't malicious. I tried to ease her fears with facts, reassurance and validation that yes, there are risks and uncertainty here but it is worth it and that COVID is much more of a risk, these are my sources, etc, but I don't think I got anywhere or that I handled it all that well. We ended the convo with both of us acknowledging that we were coming from a place of deep fear for each other and we both just want the best for our friends/community/etc, we just have different ideas on what that best looks like and we'll leave it at that, live and let live, but... I still feel bad.
This was so sudden and it hit me like a truck because she's been one of the most compassionate, socially-aware people I've ever known point-blank, and she's one my dearest friends in the whole damn world, so her suddenly falling into anti-vax conspiracy is a little scary. I do know she's had bad experiences with doctors in the past, she is very hypervigilant around risks and losing others, and that her dad is most likely the one who started feeding her all this anti-vax info, so I'm trying my best not to blame her too much and to empathize, but I'm shaken.
I'm really worried that she won't get vaccinated and she'll get COVID and die/get lifelong effects/etc or pass it on to others. Or that our friendship will fall apart and that this will be an irreperable difference between us. I really, really do not want to cut her out of my life or do anything drastic—that would completely break my heart—but right now, I'm struggling to wrap my head around this aspect of her.
Like I said, she wears an N-95 mask, socially distances, follows all the guidelines and will continue to do so, etc, so it's not like she's out there spreading COVID to everyone she meets, and I can understand a little worry around the vaccine, but it also feels like I'm talking to a stranger that I don't recognize—her views around COVID as a virus are solid and grounded in facts, but the second the vaccine part of it comes in it turns into conspiracy and misinformation very quickly, and it's disorienting.
It's triggering my own fight/flight too, my own fears around getting emotionally hurt in relationships, and of potentially losing someone to a preventable death. There's also a moral worry to it—am I allowed to or okay with being super close friends with someone who refuses the vaccine and believes in fringe anti-vax stuff? After all the death, the nightmare of this pandemic... My own moral compass is absolutely set on getting vaccinated and protecting myself, friends, and community; it would feel irresponsible and wrong not to. But I can tell she's so so scared, she thinks she's doing the safest thing for everybody, and she's still being careful with masking + distancing + no socializing, so the moral aspect is gray, confusing territory, and that’s hard. It isn't as clear-cut as "oh, just write her off forever and move on."
I'm aware this is broad, but my question is: how do I emotionally and morally cope with this anti-covid-vax perspective of my best friend? I know I probably can't change her mind (though I'll keep trying to reach her when the topic comes up) so tips on that aren't probably all that useful here. Mostly I just don't want to lose her to this—the rest of our friendship is genuinely wonderful, not much else is an issue, and I love her to death. I want to find a way to morally/emotionally navigate this without cutting her off or distancing myself, so please don't suggest that if at all possible.
I struggle with a pretty inflexible, black-and-white moral framework and anxiety, so this whole thing is pretty intense for me, and I'd love perspective or insight on how to deal, or if anyone's emotionally navigated something similar in their lives successfully. I have a therapist and I'm gonna talk to them about this next week, but I wanted input from others too. Thank you so much!
This has seriously shaken me. My most beloved, lifelong friend in the world (she's essentially family to me, and is a huge part of my support system) is usually very socially conscious, science-forward and left-wing. She's a wonderful, intelligent, and deeply compassionate person, so our political/social stances have always pretty much aligned ... Until today.
I was texting her that I'd finally gotten an appointment for a vaccine (yay!) when she suddenly said that she'd read "concerning" things about the vaccines in general, and was wondering if it was okay to tell me what she'd found but was worried it'd make me anxious. I agreed to let her tell me since I thought it was maybe just a few worries about stuff I'd already read (the low chances of a blood-clot with the AZ vaccine, possible side-effects for a few days, something like that), but it wasn't.
Instead, she said she was really scared the vaccine might kill me with an untreatable blood clot, that it isn't effective at cutting transmission or preventing COVID, that it's potentially "toxic" and unsafe in the long term, that Big Pharma is hiding data from us, and that she's super worried about me getting it, even though she does respect my choice + bodily autonomy to do so, and understands my fear around COVID. She then sent me articles from anti-vax 5G conspiracy sites, and videos from "doctors" who were casting doubt on the vaccine's effectiveness.
I tried to contain my shock and have a gentle conversation about it, since I could tell that this was all coming from a place of deep panic about her friends and she is just really misinformed and worried; it isn't malicious. I tried to ease her fears with facts, reassurance and validation that yes, there are risks and uncertainty here but it is worth it and that COVID is much more of a risk, these are my sources, etc, but I don't think I got anywhere or that I handled it all that well. We ended the convo with both of us acknowledging that we were coming from a place of deep fear for each other and we both just want the best for our friends/community/etc, we just have different ideas on what that best looks like and we'll leave it at that, live and let live, but... I still feel bad.
This was so sudden and it hit me like a truck because she's been one of the most compassionate, socially-aware people I've ever known point-blank, and she's one my dearest friends in the whole damn world, so her suddenly falling into anti-vax conspiracy is a little scary. I do know she's had bad experiences with doctors in the past, she is very hypervigilant around risks and losing others, and that her dad is most likely the one who started feeding her all this anti-vax info, so I'm trying my best not to blame her too much and to empathize, but I'm shaken.
I'm really worried that she won't get vaccinated and she'll get COVID and die/get lifelong effects/etc or pass it on to others. Or that our friendship will fall apart and that this will be an irreperable difference between us. I really, really do not want to cut her out of my life or do anything drastic—that would completely break my heart—but right now, I'm struggling to wrap my head around this aspect of her.
Like I said, she wears an N-95 mask, socially distances, follows all the guidelines and will continue to do so, etc, so it's not like she's out there spreading COVID to everyone she meets, and I can understand a little worry around the vaccine, but it also feels like I'm talking to a stranger that I don't recognize—her views around COVID as a virus are solid and grounded in facts, but the second the vaccine part of it comes in it turns into conspiracy and misinformation very quickly, and it's disorienting.
It's triggering my own fight/flight too, my own fears around getting emotionally hurt in relationships, and of potentially losing someone to a preventable death. There's also a moral worry to it—am I allowed to or okay with being super close friends with someone who refuses the vaccine and believes in fringe anti-vax stuff? After all the death, the nightmare of this pandemic... My own moral compass is absolutely set on getting vaccinated and protecting myself, friends, and community; it would feel irresponsible and wrong not to. But I can tell she's so so scared, she thinks she's doing the safest thing for everybody, and she's still being careful with masking + distancing + no socializing, so the moral aspect is gray, confusing territory, and that’s hard. It isn't as clear-cut as "oh, just write her off forever and move on."
I'm aware this is broad, but my question is: how do I emotionally and morally cope with this anti-covid-vax perspective of my best friend? I know I probably can't change her mind (though I'll keep trying to reach her when the topic comes up) so tips on that aren't probably all that useful here. Mostly I just don't want to lose her to this—the rest of our friendship is genuinely wonderful, not much else is an issue, and I love her to death. I want to find a way to morally/emotionally navigate this without cutting her off or distancing myself, so please don't suggest that if at all possible.
I struggle with a pretty inflexible, black-and-white moral framework and anxiety, so this whole thing is pretty intense for me, and I'd love perspective or insight on how to deal, or if anyone's emotionally navigated something similar in their lives successfully. I have a therapist and I'm gonna talk to them about this next week, but I wanted input from others too. Thank you so much!
We ended the convo with both of us acknowledging that we were coming from a place of deep fear for each other and we both just want the best for our friends/community/etc, we just have different ideas on what that best looks like and we'll leave it at that, live and let live
You have already hit on the best strategy here.
I have a close family member who is anti vax (and in a higher risk age group) and I have come to accept that she will never change her mind on vaccines, just as I will never change mine. Therefore we agree to disagree and change the subject if it arises.
Of course that's easy to say and it's taken me many months to really accept it but in a nutshell that's what you do. It's similar to how anti-smokers get used to a loved one smoking.
posted by roolya_boolya at 7:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
You have already hit on the best strategy here.
I have a close family member who is anti vax (and in a higher risk age group) and I have come to accept that she will never change her mind on vaccines, just as I will never change mine. Therefore we agree to disagree and change the subject if it arises.
Of course that's easy to say and it's taken me many months to really accept it but in a nutshell that's what you do. It's similar to how anti-smokers get used to a loved one smoking.
posted by roolya_boolya at 7:34 PM on June 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's totally fine for you to not figure out what to do about this for a few weeks to think this through and see if she gets better. You can go low-effort for contact for a bit and just avoid taking this head-on and see what pans out.
But you should probably brace yourself for the pedophiles that come next, and decide where your line is.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:40 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
But you should probably brace yourself for the pedophiles that come next, and decide where your line is.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:40 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Not going to threadsit, but just to clear something up—she doesn't live and isn't from the USA, so QAnon isn't such a huge threat where she is (although I know that conspiracy groups and extremists exist everywhere, especially online, so that doesn't help all that much.) I'm pretty sure she heard "deadly blood clots in people that are my friends' ages", freaked out, and fell down an anti-vax rabbit hole; and that this is more about a heavily misinformed medical fear + being very anti-corporation in her politics. It doesn't seem to extend to her other beliefs as far as I could glean, and I tried to glean that. Seems like a vaccine/medical-misinformation issue, though I'm aware it could spiral into something worse.
So, I know that's a possibility and I get the worry, but I'd appreciate answers with less speculation around a possible future QAnon/conspiracy-spiral for her, since I'm already plenty anxious about that myself, and more focus on how I might cope with what's happening right now in the present, which is solely about our opposite views on the COVID vaccine. Thank you!
posted by Anonymous at 8:06 PM on June 5, 2021
So, I know that's a possibility and I get the worry, but I'd appreciate answers with less speculation around a possible future QAnon/conspiracy-spiral for her, since I'm already plenty anxious about that myself, and more focus on how I might cope with what's happening right now in the present, which is solely about our opposite views on the COVID vaccine. Thank you!
posted by Anonymous at 8:06 PM on June 5, 2021
This article on verbal aikido may be helpful for you.
It's a bit hard for me to talk about this without deviating into "how to steer her away from this before it gets worse," because I've been following a lot of this and it often does get worse. Has she been locked down or otherwise isolated? There are a lot of people who are getting sucked into this thinking, particularly through wellness communities. There's a very specific funnel for this that starts in online yoga/meditation/GOOP-type communities. As a broader strategy, if she has been locked down and isolated, it would be good to remind her of things she enjoys doing/reading/spending more time with her in ways that divert her from getting obsessed with this. Fear can lead people to consume more of this content which just hardens their views.
This comes from a support group for families with QAnon members but it's helpful advice for anyone with a loved one that believes in conspiracy theories.
posted by rednikki at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
It's a bit hard for me to talk about this without deviating into "how to steer her away from this before it gets worse," because I've been following a lot of this and it often does get worse. Has she been locked down or otherwise isolated? There are a lot of people who are getting sucked into this thinking, particularly through wellness communities. There's a very specific funnel for this that starts in online yoga/meditation/GOOP-type communities. As a broader strategy, if she has been locked down and isolated, it would be good to remind her of things she enjoys doing/reading/spending more time with her in ways that divert her from getting obsessed with this. Fear can lead people to consume more of this content which just hardens their views.
This comes from a support group for families with QAnon members but it's helpful advice for anyone with a loved one that believes in conspiracy theories.
posted by rednikki at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
I am a black and white thinker, and I have a lot of fact-based beliefs that are socially acceptable to ignore because they're too hard to acknowledge. Like about casual use of dangerous motor vehicles.
I tell myself over and over that everyone is working on the things that matter to them as best as they know how.
posted by aniola at 8:40 PM on June 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
I tell myself over and over that everyone is working on the things that matter to them as best as they know how.
posted by aniola at 8:40 PM on June 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
I completely share your views with regard to the vaccine, but you sound like you are catastrophizing both the impact and the potential result of her views. She is far from the only one that holds them, and managing vaccine hesitancy (and the impact of it) is a problem way bigger than something to be dealt with at the individual level. Personally I would not let something like this get in the way of what otherwise seems like a very fulfilling friendship, and just hope that she eventually comes around.
posted by ryanbryan at 9:38 PM on June 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by ryanbryan at 9:38 PM on June 5, 2021 [7 favorites]
Oh lord, one of my online friends (never met in person, met during pandemic online, we hang out over Zoom/chat a lot) is like this. Genius-type person, but sometimes once in a while it's like hoooo boy did this just go down the not-quite-QAnon rabbit hole from hell. She doesn't trust mRNA vaccines and she's convinced that the J&J comes from aborted babies. I was all "so hey, I read some stuff the other day about this, turns out it doesn't," and she politely is going to believe what she wants to believe despite any evidence. She also doesn't think vaccines work AT ALL because someone or other she knew came down with Covid a week or two after the first shot. The few times I and our other friend set her off on the topic, well, we're backing off.
I don't think there's anything I can do. She wants to believe what she wants to believe. I'm not being around her IRL since she lives on the other end of the state. I can't affect what she does and her being unvaccinated isn't technically affecting my health. If she wants to spend the rest of her life in Covid jail living like this at a distance with masks forever because of "aborted babies," that's her choice. That's all you can do too. That and worry if she'll get it, but we can't do shit about that either.
However, what I'm curious about is that my friend's employer is one of those who has said "as soon as the FDA makes the vaccines for regular use, we're requiring all employees to get it, preferably by fall anyway." I'm REALLY curious to see what happens then. Is she going to entirely quit her job over this, or suck it up and get over the "aborted babies" drama?
I don't think you have to cut her off over this. I'm guessing that friend doesn't live in your vicinity, so her health choices aren't messing with you personally. It's not like she's insisting on coming to stay at your house for 2 weeks with your immunocompromised grandma already living there or whatever. But avoiding the topic wherever possible is probably the best way to maintain the friendship without having bombs go off regularly. IF she gives you a possible opening, MAYBE try with her again, but if she's coming from a place of total fear, she probably can't hear you anyway.
Good luck. It's a sucky place to be in and I wasn't expecting to be in it myself.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:00 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't think there's anything I can do. She wants to believe what she wants to believe. I'm not being around her IRL since she lives on the other end of the state. I can't affect what she does and her being unvaccinated isn't technically affecting my health. If she wants to spend the rest of her life in Covid jail living like this at a distance with masks forever because of "aborted babies," that's her choice. That's all you can do too. That and worry if she'll get it, but we can't do shit about that either.
However, what I'm curious about is that my friend's employer is one of those who has said "as soon as the FDA makes the vaccines for regular use, we're requiring all employees to get it, preferably by fall anyway." I'm REALLY curious to see what happens then. Is she going to entirely quit her job over this, or suck it up and get over the "aborted babies" drama?
I don't think you have to cut her off over this. I'm guessing that friend doesn't live in your vicinity, so her health choices aren't messing with you personally. It's not like she's insisting on coming to stay at your house for 2 weeks with your immunocompromised grandma already living there or whatever. But avoiding the topic wherever possible is probably the best way to maintain the friendship without having bombs go off regularly. IF she gives you a possible opening, MAYBE try with her again, but if she's coming from a place of total fear, she probably can't hear you anyway.
Good luck. It's a sucky place to be in and I wasn't expecting to be in it myself.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:00 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think cutting off your friend would be counter productive. First, you both would lose an (otherwise) amazing friendship. Second, your friend would lose a connection with someone who has not fallen down the anti-vax rabbit hole.
It sounds like for the time being, you will try to continue on as usual with your friendship without bringing up the topic of the COVID vaccines. I think you can continue to hope for the possibility that some day your friend may become more comfortable with the COVID vaccine as it becomes more established.
Also a gentle reminder that the only person you can control in this situation is you. There isn't an ethical way to make your friend take your position on COVID vaccines. However, perhaps (if you have the bandwidth to do so) you could brainstorm actions you could take to help ease humanity's pain caused by pandemic.
posted by oceano at 11:06 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
It sounds like for the time being, you will try to continue on as usual with your friendship without bringing up the topic of the COVID vaccines. I think you can continue to hope for the possibility that some day your friend may become more comfortable with the COVID vaccine as it becomes more established.
Also a gentle reminder that the only person you can control in this situation is you. There isn't an ethical way to make your friend take your position on COVID vaccines. However, perhaps (if you have the bandwidth to do so) you could brainstorm actions you could take to help ease humanity's pain caused by pandemic.
posted by oceano at 11:06 PM on June 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
Would it help or make sense to talk about how you’re feeling with her? Not about the vaccine but about how jarring it is to see her suddenly taken in by conspiracy theories (from your perspective) when that runs counter to everything you know about her and how you conceive of her.
I would usually expect that conversation to result in defensiveness or fighting but it sounds like you have a very open and sensitive communication style with each other. Maybe this was already part of the original conversation.
posted by Gravel at 11:25 PM on June 5, 2021
I would usually expect that conversation to result in defensiveness or fighting but it sounds like you have a very open and sensitive communication style with each other. Maybe this was already part of the original conversation.
posted by Gravel at 11:25 PM on June 5, 2021
Vice actually did a couple articles on the 5G Covid conspiracy. There is evidence that this is Russian-backed misinformation campaign attempting to gain time for their 5G technology and deployment to catch up to the west. RT commentator was most active pushing the 5G conspiracy angle with ZERO supporting evidence, merely suggestive wording, and it actually predated COVID. When COVID hit the news she added that to the repertoire of insinuations.
The first "doctor" to directly link 5G to COVID was a Dutch doctor (GP, not virologist or anything) of a tiny town who wrote an editorial, again, with ZERO evidence backing his opinion. The newspaper decided it's so bad they took down his editorial, which unfortunately only encouraged the conspiracy theorists to double down screaming "censorship!"
Then there are these well-credentialed supposedly scientists... writing papers that are FAR OUT OF their field of expertise. Like a cardiologist and a dermatologist writing a paper claiming 5G causes COVID. It's clearly a group of pseudoscientists... and someone is trying to index their obscure work to "prove" the conspiracy theories.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgqxgd/inside-the-bizarre-publishing-ring-that-linked-5g-to-coronavirus
https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/blog/2020/04/anti-vaxxers-and-russia-behind-viral-5g-covid-conspiracy-theory/
posted by kschang at 12:38 AM on June 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
The first "doctor" to directly link 5G to COVID was a Dutch doctor (GP, not virologist or anything) of a tiny town who wrote an editorial, again, with ZERO evidence backing his opinion. The newspaper decided it's so bad they took down his editorial, which unfortunately only encouraged the conspiracy theorists to double down screaming "censorship!"
Then there are these well-credentialed supposedly scientists... writing papers that are FAR OUT OF their field of expertise. Like a cardiologist and a dermatologist writing a paper claiming 5G causes COVID. It's clearly a group of pseudoscientists... and someone is trying to index their obscure work to "prove" the conspiracy theories.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgqxgd/inside-the-bizarre-publishing-ring-that-linked-5g-to-coronavirus
https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/blog/2020/04/anti-vaxxers-and-russia-behind-viral-5g-covid-conspiracy-theory/
posted by kschang at 12:38 AM on June 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
am I allowed to or okay with being super close friends with someone who refuses the vaccine and believes in fringe anti-vax stuff?
No-one can give you permission, because that is entirely your decision. There's no "left-wing, socially-conscious" rule book that tells you what to do in morally ambiguous situations, it's a judgement call that you and you alone have to make. Besides, a "rule" in this kind of situation would be too inflexible to deal with changing and nuanced circumstances.
I'm going to go against some of the prevailing sentiment here, and say that there is a good chance your friend will naturally pull out of the rabbit hole as time goes on and it becomes clear that the vaccine doesn't have any terrible side effects for the overwhelming majority (99.5%+) of people who have it. (If it turns out that there ARE terrible side effects for lots of people in the long term then your question is moot, because she was right.)
Fear itself in the face of a pandemic and a quickly built vaccine is rational, but she's just gone a little too far. You can't force her to row back because that will almost certainly push her farther down the rabbit hole.
The best thing for you to do is to continue to speak to her as regularly as you can, without mentioning vaccines at all. Let her see that the world is normal, that you are fine, that all the people you have in common are fine. Slowly over a period of time it may become more apparent to her that her worst fears are unfounded and she will gently untangle herself from the web she's got ensnared in. And if nothing else, the more time you spend with her, the less time she'll be on the internet soaking up fuel for her conspiracy fire. Keep her grounded in this world, and you'll have the best shot of keeping her here.
But whatever you do, don't push against her beliefs. They are not set in stone, yet, and pushing will only hasten that hardening. Keep away from the topic, focus on other things you have in common that are tangential - racial/gender equity, corporate greed, etc - so that she can confirm that you are still on the same page on everything else, and give her the space and support to come back towards you in her own time.
You cannot fix this, you can only provide the environment where she can fix this herself.
posted by underclocked at 12:55 AM on June 6, 2021 [21 favorites]
No-one can give you permission, because that is entirely your decision. There's no "left-wing, socially-conscious" rule book that tells you what to do in morally ambiguous situations, it's a judgement call that you and you alone have to make. Besides, a "rule" in this kind of situation would be too inflexible to deal with changing and nuanced circumstances.
I'm going to go against some of the prevailing sentiment here, and say that there is a good chance your friend will naturally pull out of the rabbit hole as time goes on and it becomes clear that the vaccine doesn't have any terrible side effects for the overwhelming majority (99.5%+) of people who have it. (If it turns out that there ARE terrible side effects for lots of people in the long term then your question is moot, because she was right.)
Fear itself in the face of a pandemic and a quickly built vaccine is rational, but she's just gone a little too far. You can't force her to row back because that will almost certainly push her farther down the rabbit hole.
The best thing for you to do is to continue to speak to her as regularly as you can, without mentioning vaccines at all. Let her see that the world is normal, that you are fine, that all the people you have in common are fine. Slowly over a period of time it may become more apparent to her that her worst fears are unfounded and she will gently untangle herself from the web she's got ensnared in. And if nothing else, the more time you spend with her, the less time she'll be on the internet soaking up fuel for her conspiracy fire. Keep her grounded in this world, and you'll have the best shot of keeping her here.
But whatever you do, don't push against her beliefs. They are not set in stone, yet, and pushing will only hasten that hardening. Keep away from the topic, focus on other things you have in common that are tangential - racial/gender equity, corporate greed, etc - so that she can confirm that you are still on the same page on everything else, and give her the space and support to come back towards you in her own time.
You cannot fix this, you can only provide the environment where she can fix this herself.
posted by underclocked at 12:55 AM on June 6, 2021 [21 favorites]
So sometimes when my anxiety gets really out of control, it's like my brain just picks something to latch onto, and I'll hyperfocus all my fears on that. Often, there's something else even scarier that I'm actively avoiding thinking about/dealing with, so instead I pick this other scary thing to just project all my anxious energy onto. I often don't even realize this is what I'm doing in the moment.
I would agree that for now, it's best to stay away from this particular topic. Again, just for me personally, whenever someone tries to gently push back when I'm in that "fight or flight" mode, it doesn't work. My brain is too busy being "Oh my god it's abear [Whatever anxiety provoking thing]! We're going to die! The sky is falling! etc" for any sense to make it through.
I think for now, just being there for your friend as best you can is the most helpful thing you can do. Maybe keep an ear out or even gently probe if you're comfortable to see if there are other stressors going on.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:22 AM on June 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would agree that for now, it's best to stay away from this particular topic. Again, just for me personally, whenever someone tries to gently push back when I'm in that "fight or flight" mode, it doesn't work. My brain is too busy being "Oh my god it's a
I think for now, just being there for your friend as best you can is the most helpful thing you can do. Maybe keep an ear out or even gently probe if you're comfortable to see if there are other stressors going on.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:22 AM on June 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I could have written this, and it's been a distressing situation. The way I'm coping with it is thinking about it like "oh that Sally, she loves wearing purple hats on Tuesday! I would never do that but hey, everyone has their quirks." And go on with my day. Even though I am upset someone close to me has a huge difference in opinion about something important to me, if I think about it too long I catastrophize and get very negative about the situation and my friend. Like other people mentioned, I would talk about other light hearted topics and hope things get less scary feeling for both of us.
posted by starlybri at 6:27 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by starlybri at 6:27 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Does your friend suffer from anxiety? Perfectly reasonable people with anxiety can be quite irrational about things that trigger their anxiety.
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:05 AM on June 6, 2021
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:05 AM on June 6, 2021
Her best friend getting the vaccine with no ill effects is going to be one thing that helps her start finding her way out of this dark place.
posted by joeyh at 7:30 AM on June 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 7:30 AM on June 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
I think there is great insight here. We tend to believe new things that align with the beliefs we already have, and to disbelieve the things that contradict what we already believe. This is true of everyone. Einstein, who upset conventional belief more than any other 20th century thinker, couldn't accept some later ideas in physics.
The message "Great work Pfizer! Great work Modena! Great work J&J! Everyone get vaccinated" was at odds with the friend's pre-existing beliefs and she rejected it. Perhaps she had accepted the notion that the drug companies are untrustworthy, dirty, rotten scoundrels. That idea is certainly out there (and there are some companies to which it applies). Maybe it was something else.
Personally, I would 1) avoid the topic, and 2) if unavoidable, limit my own contributions to a few "I have not seen any reason to believe that" responses plus unintelligible grunts as required.
posted by SemiSalt at 9:17 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
The message "Great work Pfizer! Great work Modena! Great work J&J! Everyone get vaccinated" was at odds with the friend's pre-existing beliefs and she rejected it. Perhaps she had accepted the notion that the drug companies are untrustworthy, dirty, rotten scoundrels. That idea is certainly out there (and there are some companies to which it applies). Maybe it was something else.
Personally, I would 1) avoid the topic, and 2) if unavoidable, limit my own contributions to a few "I have not seen any reason to believe that" responses plus unintelligible grunts as required.
posted by SemiSalt at 9:17 AM on June 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is no sign she is becoming non-left-wing or non-socially conscious. The anti-vax movement has traditionally and abounded in socially-conscious atheistic left-wing people. Right-wing religious people (who of course think of themselves as socially conscious!) have been noisier in the initial wave of Covid anti-vax sentiment, but the others were bound to catch up.
It's probably not a sign she's becoming a general purpose believer in conspiracies / disbeliever in mainstream things. For whatever reason, anti-vax sentiment seems to be its own thing, embraced by lots of (otherwise) reasonable people.
posted by MattD at 9:35 AM on June 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's probably not a sign she's becoming a general purpose believer in conspiracies / disbeliever in mainstream things. For whatever reason, anti-vax sentiment seems to be its own thing, embraced by lots of (otherwise) reasonable people.
posted by MattD at 9:35 AM on June 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
One of my dearest friends is not vaccinated because she’s afraid of the side effects. You know those people who are on the less-lucky side of the spectrum? That “what are the chances that would have happened to her?” person? That’s her, and she knows it, and side effects that are 10/1,000,000 scare her.
As she’s watched the rest of us get our shots and observed our side effects and seen us all come out ok on the other side, she’s gone from “I’m never getting it” to “I’ll get it in the fall.” And that’s fine. She’s masking and being careful. We’re acting as a wall of immunity around her. For some people it just takes time and a more gentle approach.
posted by kimberussell at 10:26 AM on June 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
As she’s watched the rest of us get our shots and observed our side effects and seen us all come out ok on the other side, she’s gone from “I’m never getting it” to “I’ll get it in the fall.” And that’s fine. She’s masking and being careful. We’re acting as a wall of immunity around her. For some people it just takes time and a more gentle approach.
posted by kimberussell at 10:26 AM on June 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
If it's in Canada, I blame mainstream media like CBC News, which was irresponsibly pushing scare-mongering panic about AstraZeneca side-effects, and actually pressured our province into temporarily suspending AZ (until health officials intervened). I don't know of a simple solution, but some patience probably helps.
posted by ovvl at 11:07 AM on June 6, 2021
posted by ovvl at 11:07 AM on June 6, 2021
A dear friend of mine who has very progressive politics and a big heart has become a vocal covid-vax denier. Friend also firmly believes in 9/11 conspiracies. I've told them I will engage only briefly on the subject. People you love can believe things that are genuinely factually wrong and you can still love them. As long as the person doesn't embrace immorally wrong things, like racist, Trump-y, Right-wing crap.
posted by theora55 at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2021
posted by theora55 at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2021
This may sound a bit condescending, but it may help explain the situation:
"Crank magnetism" -- a condition where people become attracted to multiple crank ideas at the same time, or the tendency of a person who believes in one or more cranks to accumulate more crank beliefs over time.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism
First coined by Mark Hoofnagle back in 2007, it was pointed out that conspiracy theorists are often able to believe in MULTIPLE conspiracy theories that conflict with each other (mutually exclusive), while denying objective reality, if those conspiracy theories align with their core beliefs.
For example, if the person has a fundamental distrust of government, then any conspiracy theory that fits the mold (JFK assassination, 9/11 truth, moon landing hoax are all about distrust of government) would be welcomed, and COVID vaccine fear is also a distrust of government / CDC / WHO / etc.
Another possibility: if the person believes in one form of alternative medicine, or nutritional supplements (vitamins, etc.), they may gain antivax beliefs as the overall "core belief" is "anti Big Pharma", and distrust of vaccine aligns with that.
posted by kschang at 12:33 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
"Crank magnetism" -- a condition where people become attracted to multiple crank ideas at the same time, or the tendency of a person who believes in one or more cranks to accumulate more crank beliefs over time.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism
First coined by Mark Hoofnagle back in 2007, it was pointed out that conspiracy theorists are often able to believe in MULTIPLE conspiracy theories that conflict with each other (mutually exclusive), while denying objective reality, if those conspiracy theories align with their core beliefs.
For example, if the person has a fundamental distrust of government, then any conspiracy theory that fits the mold (JFK assassination, 9/11 truth, moon landing hoax are all about distrust of government) would be welcomed, and COVID vaccine fear is also a distrust of government / CDC / WHO / etc.
Another possibility: if the person believes in one form of alternative medicine, or nutritional supplements (vitamins, etc.), they may gain antivax beliefs as the overall "core belief" is "anti Big Pharma", and distrust of vaccine aligns with that.
posted by kschang at 12:33 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have a good friend whom I love and respect deeply, who is also an anti-vaxxer. She also has many other strongly and sincerely-held beliefs that I do not. I can't change this and I know that she (like many people) will respond to reasoned arguments, articles and logic in favour of getting the vaccine by digging her heels in further and claiming that we have all been brainwashed by 'the government' and Big Pharma. I've told her that I love and respect her but that I don't think we should discuss vaccinations anymore, and we don't. We go way back and have a wellspring of trust and affection for each other and our friendship hasn't struggled as a result of this difference of opinion. I hope that gives you some hope!
Many people can't get the vaccine for legitimate reasons - I know at least two people personally who have received medical advice from their GPs not to get the vaccine - if enough of the rest of us get vaccinated, a minority not getting it will not turn the tide of cases.
I wanted to address this:
There's also a moral worry to it—am I allowed to or okay with being super close friends with someone who refuses the vaccine and believes in fringe anti-vax stuff?
I also think that the pandemic has aided/sped up the creation of a fixed-point black and white morality which simply cannot survive being applied to reality. I blame our culture of hot takes and call-outs for this. We simply cannot expect everyone to behave the way we will all the time. That also does not make them bad people. The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' themselves are problematic and unhelpful anyway; reality does not deal in absolutes, it's all a matter of degrees. Your friend being an anti-vaxxer does not suddenly make her a bad person and it doesn't make you a bad person to continue to be friends with her. Who gets to call you good and bad anyway? I think I am a good person, but I regularly eat meat even though it's not the best choice for the planet. Does that mean everything else good that I have done, every time I have provided emotional support to a friend, donated to charity, or stood up to bullies, becomes invalidated by that one act? I hear you when you say you're struggling with it; I hope that you have the support you need to work through this yourself as well.
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:15 PM on June 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Many people can't get the vaccine for legitimate reasons - I know at least two people personally who have received medical advice from their GPs not to get the vaccine - if enough of the rest of us get vaccinated, a minority not getting it will not turn the tide of cases.
I wanted to address this:
There's also a moral worry to it—am I allowed to or okay with being super close friends with someone who refuses the vaccine and believes in fringe anti-vax stuff?
I also think that the pandemic has aided/sped up the creation of a fixed-point black and white morality which simply cannot survive being applied to reality. I blame our culture of hot takes and call-outs for this. We simply cannot expect everyone to behave the way we will all the time. That also does not make them bad people. The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' themselves are problematic and unhelpful anyway; reality does not deal in absolutes, it's all a matter of degrees. Your friend being an anti-vaxxer does not suddenly make her a bad person and it doesn't make you a bad person to continue to be friends with her. Who gets to call you good and bad anyway? I think I am a good person, but I regularly eat meat even though it's not the best choice for the planet. Does that mean everything else good that I have done, every time I have provided emotional support to a friend, donated to charity, or stood up to bullies, becomes invalidated by that one act? I hear you when you say you're struggling with it; I hope that you have the support you need to work through this yourself as well.
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:15 PM on June 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Vaccines freak people out. I mean, it's pretty weird to let someone stick a needle in you, and a needle full of "germs" is even weirder. Benjamin Franklin wouldn't let doctors inoculate his son, who then died at age 4 of smallpox, because he was scared of the risks of inoculation, and had this to say about it later:
"In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen."
2020/2021 has been a terrifying year on many levels. That your friend is having some non-optimal thoughts and behaviors seems pretty normal to me. (That it totally freaks YOU out to have your friend suddenly spouting uncharacteristic opinions seems very normal to me, too.) I don't think you have any moral impetus to cut her off; on the contrary, if you have a moral job related to this phenomena, it's to stay in touch with her, so she can see how fine you are and how find you continue to be.
posted by hungrytiger at 4:24 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
"In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen."
2020/2021 has been a terrifying year on many levels. That your friend is having some non-optimal thoughts and behaviors seems pretty normal to me. (That it totally freaks YOU out to have your friend suddenly spouting uncharacteristic opinions seems very normal to me, too.) I don't think you have any moral impetus to cut her off; on the contrary, if you have a moral job related to this phenomena, it's to stay in touch with her, so she can see how fine you are and how find you continue to be.
posted by hungrytiger at 4:24 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have a very close friend who won't get the vaccine because of fears of potential dangerous side effects. She also won't allow her teenager to get the vaccine, even though he wants it. ( Her spouse is vaccinated.) The reason why this doesn't bother me in the least is because I know my friend very well. I know that she has a lot of fears around safety, security, and illness. It's not rational but it's one of her personality traits, just as I have irrational personality traits.
Refusing the vaccine does not have to be politically motivated. My friend and I have the same left-progressive political leanings. I trust that the vaccine is safe. Trusting that the vaccine is safe has nothing to do with politics. My friend will not risk her health, even if there is a minute chance of an adverse outcome, and might seek out information that aligns with her fears. It has nothing to do with politics. My friend is afraid of chemicals and things that will cause cancer or death. She is afraid of sunscreen and household cleaners and anything artificial -- Diet Coke for instance. It's not a shock that she won't get the vaccine. She doesn't like to introduce "chemicals" into her body. It's not rational and she probably knows it.
she is very hypervigilant around risks and losing others,
My friend is the same and this statement tells you everything you need to know in order to understand her motivations and fears. Your friend is motivated to remain safe and secure. Even without her father's anti-vax sentiments, she would still likely refuse it and find ways in which it is harmful.
My advice is to let the vaccine subject die and understand the psychology behind her refusal. Her anxieties and fears are patterns of trying to remain safe. She might outgrow this and she might not. Think of some traits that you have that aren't rational. People may have tried to convince you otherwise, yet you still have this underlying irrational belief or feeling. It's the same thing. My example would be a feeling of not belonging when others include me.
posted by loveandhappiness at 5:08 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Refusing the vaccine does not have to be politically motivated. My friend and I have the same left-progressive political leanings. I trust that the vaccine is safe. Trusting that the vaccine is safe has nothing to do with politics. My friend will not risk her health, even if there is a minute chance of an adverse outcome, and might seek out information that aligns with her fears. It has nothing to do with politics. My friend is afraid of chemicals and things that will cause cancer or death. She is afraid of sunscreen and household cleaners and anything artificial -- Diet Coke for instance. It's not a shock that she won't get the vaccine. She doesn't like to introduce "chemicals" into her body. It's not rational and she probably knows it.
she is very hypervigilant around risks and losing others,
My friend is the same and this statement tells you everything you need to know in order to understand her motivations and fears. Your friend is motivated to remain safe and secure. Even without her father's anti-vax sentiments, she would still likely refuse it and find ways in which it is harmful.
My advice is to let the vaccine subject die and understand the psychology behind her refusal. Her anxieties and fears are patterns of trying to remain safe. She might outgrow this and she might not. Think of some traits that you have that aren't rational. People may have tried to convince you otherwise, yet you still have this underlying irrational belief or feeling. It's the same thing. My example would be a feeling of not belonging when others include me.
posted by loveandhappiness at 5:08 PM on June 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would back way off the "end this friendship" thinking for now. If you need to end the friendship, you have plenty of time to do so! Give yourself some time to react to this, to have your feelings of shock, anger, fear, etc, without making any decisions. Friends are hard to make as we get older. I suggest you just cool off a bit.
I am a nurse and talk to people about the vaccine every day. I have coworkers who have been eligible since February, fearful of harmful effects, and literally just decided last week to get vaccinated. Patients I talk to have fear as well, and many have slowly changed their mind over time. This is not necessarily a permanent mind-state for your friend. There is no need to take action now.
I always feel afraid sharing this here, but here goes: when I had a baby 18 years ago, I didn't vaccinate her. This was before the Right had seized and expanded vaccine concerns into a movement. I had never heard any rumors about autism. I was part of a subculture of folks who were very critical of medicine for reasons that I still find quite valid: The pharmaceutical industry is under-regulated and corrupt. They report findings selectively and profit off human misery. There is a long history of erroneous medical assumptions, treated as facts, that caused harm.
Despite my concerns, a friend who disagreed remained my friend. She talked to me about the vaccine issue a lot, and ultimately, convinced me to get at least some, not for the health of my own child, but for the well being of the larger community. Perhaps, over time, your friend will be persuaded by such an argument about COVID vaccines. Many years have passed since I had my child and over those years I changed my thinking on vaccines. I find the concerns about possible negative health impacts to lack compelling evidence, and the community health benefits to far outweigh the small possibility that there are unknown harms. My child eventually was fully vaccinated.
I share all this to say your friend sounds like a good person who is having some opinions that, according to the currently available evidence, are wrong. But this is an extremely charged moment for all of us, and over time, her views may change. And also you will likely change, as we move past this historical moment of pandemic.
THere's no right answer here. But honor your own love for this person by giving this some time and space.
posted by latkes at 10:51 PM on June 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
I am a nurse and talk to people about the vaccine every day. I have coworkers who have been eligible since February, fearful of harmful effects, and literally just decided last week to get vaccinated. Patients I talk to have fear as well, and many have slowly changed their mind over time. This is not necessarily a permanent mind-state for your friend. There is no need to take action now.
I always feel afraid sharing this here, but here goes: when I had a baby 18 years ago, I didn't vaccinate her. This was before the Right had seized and expanded vaccine concerns into a movement. I had never heard any rumors about autism. I was part of a subculture of folks who were very critical of medicine for reasons that I still find quite valid: The pharmaceutical industry is under-regulated and corrupt. They report findings selectively and profit off human misery. There is a long history of erroneous medical assumptions, treated as facts, that caused harm.
Despite my concerns, a friend who disagreed remained my friend. She talked to me about the vaccine issue a lot, and ultimately, convinced me to get at least some, not for the health of my own child, but for the well being of the larger community. Perhaps, over time, your friend will be persuaded by such an argument about COVID vaccines. Many years have passed since I had my child and over those years I changed my thinking on vaccines. I find the concerns about possible negative health impacts to lack compelling evidence, and the community health benefits to far outweigh the small possibility that there are unknown harms. My child eventually was fully vaccinated.
I share all this to say your friend sounds like a good person who is having some opinions that, according to the currently available evidence, are wrong. But this is an extremely charged moment for all of us, and over time, her views may change. And also you will likely change, as we move past this historical moment of pandemic.
THere's no right answer here. But honor your own love for this person by giving this some time and space.
posted by latkes at 10:51 PM on June 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you so much to everyone who answered! I'm still a little shaky, but I'm definitely feeling calmer after a few days of processing and reading your answers. I'll keep an eye on things, but I'm not gonna cut her off, and will gently let things play out and see how it goes. Thanks again!
posted by Anonymous at 5:05 PM on June 7, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 5:05 PM on June 7, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think you probably also know that if she's living in the U.S. and doesn't have other serious medical conditions, she is unlikely to die of COVID. Whatever tools you currently use to manage recognizably-exaggerated anxieties you should bring into play here (or talk to your therapist about working on).
I do think, though, that you should be aware that worse may be to come. Barring a head injury or similar, people don't start suddenly believing wacky conspiracy theories out of nowhere. Rather, they line up with deeply-embedded priors that are unlocked under pressure. The priors for most people who've gone down this path, though not all, are deeply unappealing. In other words, she may not be as socially conscious and left-wing as you think. There's a nonzero probability she'll be a Qultist in a year. Just...be a little more careful with her.
posted by praemunire at 7:30 PM on June 5, 2021 [16 favorites]