Stuck in state pension system bureaucracy heck
May 17, 2021 5:32 AM   Subscribe

For over a year I've been trying to withdraw my meager retirement plan contributions from the New York State & Local Retirement System (I'm not of retirement age, and I'm no longer employed in New York - I've been trying to roll it over into an IRA). They keep rejecting me because I didn't include a form that legally I'm not allowed to include.

The first time I applied, I got rejected because I didn't include a W-8 form. A W-8 form (or more precisely a W-8BEN form) is something that you're supposed to include if you're not a US citizen or permanent resident (I am a permanent resident). To fill it out, you have to sign on the form stating that you're not a citizen or permanent resident.

I wrote in to NYSLRS saying, "Hey, what's up, I am a permanent resident and I can't fill out a W-8." And they said "Huh, okay, fill out the withdrawal paperwork again." So I did, and two months later - because that's how slowly things go there - I get rejected again for not including a W-8.

(Yes, I do mean a W-8 and not a W-9).

Just now I was on hold for half an hour to speak to someone who couldn't help me. I have to contact the withdrawal department that doesn't even have a phone number (or email) - I have to use snail mail or a fax.

If you've dealt with government pension system bureaucracy or similar before - what ultimately worked to resolve things for you? Where do I go next with this?

(Just because I know someone's going to ask - I could just leave my money in there and get a very small pension when I retire, but I don't want to because communicating with NYSLRS is such a nightmare, and also because I don't trust state pension systems to be around when I retire.)
posted by Jeanne to Work & Money (16 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
If it were me, I'd just send them the W-8 form as requested, even though it doesn't seem to apply to you. Reminds me of those stories of people repeatedly getting billed for a balance of $0.00, and the only way they made it stop was to send a check for $0.00 (probably an urban legend).
posted by alex1965 at 5:38 AM on May 17, 2021


Best answer: I have to contact the withdrawal department that doesn't even have a phone number (or email) - I have to use snail mail or a fax.

Have you done this? Sometimes the only way out is through.
posted by zamboni at 5:49 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Were you a member of a union in the job(s) covered by this pension? Maybe they could help.

Otherwise, I would fax everything over with a note on the cover letter explicitly explaining that you're not providing the W-8 because [what you said here] and asking them to reach out. Some human is processing that paperwork and hopefully they will help you figure it out....
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:06 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: If it were me, I'd just send them the W-8 form as requested, even though it doesn't seem to apply to you.

I would do this, except that I would have to certify under penalty of perjury that I'm not a resident of the US.
posted by Jeanne at 6:12 AM on May 17, 2021


Best answer: My best guess is that somehow your account is incorrectly flagged as belonging to a non-US citizen, so the person processing your forms is looking for that W-8 form and not finding it.

I would try sending a letter along with your withdrawal stuff explaining why you have not included a W-8 and asking them to contact you before rejecting it.
posted by Mid at 6:21 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


I would do this, except that I would have to certify under penalty of perjury that I'm not a resident of the US.

Additionally, this may be happening because something in the pension system says you're a non-resident, and sending them a W-8 is going to reinforce this error. The W-8 specifically tells you not to use it if you're "a U.S. citizen or other U.S. person, including a resident alien individual", and to use the W-9 instead. Including a W-9 with your letter explaining why you're not including the requested W-8 seems like a good option.
posted by zamboni at 6:24 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


I might try the W9.

I would also overwhelm the with the fact you cannot fill out the W8-BEN. Include a blank w8, and highlight the part that says you cannot fill it out if you are a US person. Include a photocopy of the document that proves you are a US person. Include a brief cover letter with large font that explains you cannot fill out the W8.

I might also ask your IRA provider if the have encountered this before and see what they say.

Good luck.
posted by thenormshow at 6:35 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


If you've dealt with government pension system bureaucracy or similar before - what ultimately worked to resolve things for you? Where do I go next with this?

Call or write to your State Senator. They typically have casework staff tasked with solving exactly this kind of problem.
posted by Jahaza at 6:55 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Best answer: My wife had to deal with a different (but likely similarly bureaucratic) agency in NY -- the NYS Education Department. The strategy that worked for her when she was trying to get in touch with someone was to just get on the phone with anyone even vaguely close to the people she want to talk to and try to get them to transfer her to someone who works in the relevant department. Of course they have phones (and emails); they just don't want to give them out to you. So, you need to get on the phone with a sympathetic person and have them transfer you. This, in the end, worked for my wife, but took several tries to get it to work.
posted by Betelgeuse at 6:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Yeah, send the W-8 with some kind of note and documentation explaining that it doesn’t apply to you. This process could be getting hung up by a form or some software that requires that the “was the W-8 included” box to be ticked before anything can proceed.
posted by corey flood at 7:01 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


It is not clear if you live in NY. If you do, I would call my NYS Senator's office or Assemblyperson's office. Ask for their help. If you are in a NYS pension plan, it is highly likely that you were in a union. Talk to that union too.

Fwiw, the NYS pension plans I have some knowledge about, TRS and ERS, are some of the most highly funded plans in the country. Over 90% (closer to 95+%) funded. They are imbedded into the NYS constitution. THey are backed by the taxing authority of whatever government entity for which you worked. I would roll my money into my own IRA too, but know that the pension plans in NY will still be there by the time you finish fighting the bureaucracy.
posted by AugustWest at 7:17 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Best answer: two months later

More general advice, which you may already be on top of: with a two month response time, go parallel, not serial. Send the letter/fax, and talk to your State Senator, and talk to the union, and try getting transferred to the correct department. Be the squeakiest wheel.
posted by zamboni at 9:00 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Did you have friendly relations with anyone in HR? I'd contact them and ask them if they could help or refer you on to someone who can. It will probably be the latter, but even that would help.
posted by praemunire at 10:31 AM on May 17, 2021


Response by poster: Thank you for all of your answers. Getting in touch with the union and HR are really good ideas if I don't succeed by just trying to do things the normal way and providing them with really copious documentation that I don't need a W-8. (Getting in touch with a state rep / senator is also a good idea, but I no longer live in NY.) It's really useful to have ideas for other human beings who might be able to help given my lack of success getting traction with anyone there.
posted by Jeanne at 11:11 AM on May 17, 2021


Best answer: Have you tried scheduling a preretirement consultation? That might get you a person who can actually help.
posted by notjustthefish at 11:51 AM on May 17, 2021


Response by poster: I just got a letter confirming that my rollover check went through! THANK YOU.

First I sent them a fax asking them to give me an explanation of why my application had been rejected and why they thought I needed a W-8 form; then I called them asking to schedule a preretirement consultation.

"You're nowhere near retirement age, so why are you trying to schedule a preretirement consultation?" asked the person on the phone.

So I explained the entire situation and said "I'm just trying to find a human being to talk to who can help me solve this."

She said that the preretirement consultation department was separate from the withdrawal department and they wouldn't be able to help me, but she would get in touch with the withdrawal department and ask them to figure out what was going on. So that at least was more helpful than the previous person who could only tell me I needed to fill out a W-8 form.

The truly strange thing is that when I went back to the online portal and looked through my old correspondence, the first time they rejected my application they sent me a W-8BEN-E form. That's not just for nonresident aliens, that's a 30-page form for foreign corporations. (I am not a foreign corporation). So it definitely looks like my account was flagged wrong at some point, but I may never know how or why.
posted by Jeanne at 6:58 AM on May 27, 2021 [1 favorite]


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