A universal place on line to shop for cars?
April 17, 2021 10:43 AM Subscribe
I know what I want and am having a little bit of trouble finding it.
My current car, a Hyundai Accent, is holding out valiantly but will need to be replaced eventually/soon.
I have looked on Hyundai.com (which only refers me to the crooks that sold me my last car and I will go back there over my dead body). I've looked at Enterprise, five or six dealers, Carmax, Costco (I seem to recall they have no dealership affiliates here) and vroom (will go back to that). And of course, blue book for the price.
I did find the Hyundai car I wanted with a stick shift, but it was three, four states over ($999 shipping). Not that I wouldn't be up for a drive but -- Covid-19. (I am fully vaccinated but you know the recent dire news about breakthrough infections. Not that I am not careful. I am extremely careful). I haven't decided if a stick is a deal breaker or not, I think it is (less transmission trouble, better gas mileage).
I was told that if a car is under a certain amount, the salespeople think it is just not necessary or worth their time to call back. I would think this would be a great time to buy a car. But it seems like no one is motivated to do anything to make a sale. They (apparently) just shrug their shoulders and say, "we don't have anything like that."
There is nothing like a color or a trim that is any kind of deal breaker. for me. I am not that particular (I once owned a Toyota about the color of the metafilter background, here). Isn't there just somewhere I can just type in '19 (or '20) Hyundai + stick shift (sorting the other things) and get a list of who has this (or another similar/superior to my list, that I have missed)?
Not interesting in switching. I love their warranty. I love Hondas, et al. too but they are much higher and I'm working within a pretty low budget.
My current car, a Hyundai Accent, is holding out valiantly but will need to be replaced eventually/soon.
I have looked on Hyundai.com (which only refers me to the crooks that sold me my last car and I will go back there over my dead body). I've looked at Enterprise, five or six dealers, Carmax, Costco (I seem to recall they have no dealership affiliates here) and vroom (will go back to that). And of course, blue book for the price.
I did find the Hyundai car I wanted with a stick shift, but it was three, four states over ($999 shipping). Not that I wouldn't be up for a drive but -- Covid-19. (I am fully vaccinated but you know the recent dire news about breakthrough infections. Not that I am not careful. I am extremely careful). I haven't decided if a stick is a deal breaker or not, I think it is (less transmission trouble, better gas mileage).
I was told that if a car is under a certain amount, the salespeople think it is just not necessary or worth their time to call back. I would think this would be a great time to buy a car. But it seems like no one is motivated to do anything to make a sale. They (apparently) just shrug their shoulders and say, "we don't have anything like that."
There is nothing like a color or a trim that is any kind of deal breaker. for me. I am not that particular (I once owned a Toyota about the color of the metafilter background, here). Isn't there just somewhere I can just type in '19 (or '20) Hyundai + stick shift (sorting the other things) and get a list of who has this (or another similar/superior to my list, that I have missed)?
Not interesting in switching. I love their warranty. I love Hondas, et al. too but they are much higher and I'm working within a pretty low budget.
AutoTrader it is.
By the way, a stick shift is no longer likely to give you better gas mileage. In fact it’s often the reverse. Automatic transmissions have gotten better with the years and now they can beat human drivers at knowing when to shift for maximum efficiency. They also last a lot longer than they used to, and well maintained automatics typically last the lifetime of most modern cars that are otherwise reliable. I wouldn’t expect a higher maintenance bill to be likely. You’re very likely to need a clutch on a MT around 100k. In that time most ATs will need one fluid exchange service. So costwise it’s at best a wash.
(I have a 1998 truck with over 200k on its automatic transmission, running fine, and a 2014 Japanese compact car with 90k on its automatic, it performs like brand new and shows no signs of excess wear in the fluid.)
It’s getting harder and harder to even find manual transmission cars, and many makers are phasing them out. The reason this matters is that preferring a stick shift will *drastically* reduce your options for available cars. The only rational reason to choose a stick is because you really prefer it for reasons of milking performance out of a low powered car or just plain engagement. A subcompact is the one segment where you may find more manuals still, though.
I’ve had numerous friends find good deals on good cars from Hertz auto sales by the way. They’re selling off their fleet still. Lots of Hyundais and Kias there. (You should be aware that most of the lineup from those two brands are identical cars other than a few cosmetic touches.)
ETA I just checked. A new Hyundai Elantra gets slightly better overall mileage in automatic transmission form vs. manual. Pretty much always true now for commuter cars and CUVS that even still offer a manual. Sad but true.
posted by spitbull at 11:14 AM on April 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
By the way, a stick shift is no longer likely to give you better gas mileage. In fact it’s often the reverse. Automatic transmissions have gotten better with the years and now they can beat human drivers at knowing when to shift for maximum efficiency. They also last a lot longer than they used to, and well maintained automatics typically last the lifetime of most modern cars that are otherwise reliable. I wouldn’t expect a higher maintenance bill to be likely. You’re very likely to need a clutch on a MT around 100k. In that time most ATs will need one fluid exchange service. So costwise it’s at best a wash.
(I have a 1998 truck with over 200k on its automatic transmission, running fine, and a 2014 Japanese compact car with 90k on its automatic, it performs like brand new and shows no signs of excess wear in the fluid.)
It’s getting harder and harder to even find manual transmission cars, and many makers are phasing them out. The reason this matters is that preferring a stick shift will *drastically* reduce your options for available cars. The only rational reason to choose a stick is because you really prefer it for reasons of milking performance out of a low powered car or just plain engagement. A subcompact is the one segment where you may find more manuals still, though.
I’ve had numerous friends find good deals on good cars from Hertz auto sales by the way. They’re selling off their fleet still. Lots of Hyundais and Kias there. (You should be aware that most of the lineup from those two brands are identical cars other than a few cosmetic touches.)
ETA I just checked. A new Hyundai Elantra gets slightly better overall mileage in automatic transmission form vs. manual. Pretty much always true now for commuter cars and CUVS that even still offer a manual. Sad but true.
posted by spitbull at 11:14 AM on April 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
A lot of the newer automatics are CVT type and some brands have had major issues with them. Some people also don't care for their driving characteristics, although supposedly they are now mostly programmed to "shift" in more user friendly ways. ("Shift" in quotes as CVTs don't have individual gears with discrete ratios.) In the EPA drive cycle, automatics do tend to get fractionally better mileage, but in real world driving manuals still do a bit better. Here's a source that claims that drivers of MT equipped vehicles beat the EPA numbers by 17%. Source is from 2015, so things may have changed since then. Since automatics allow the Mfg to program the shift points, there's more opportunity to game the car to perform well on the EPA test. Having said that, there are plenty of cars with automatics that are reliable and get good mileage. It's not my preference, but the days when having an automatic killed your acceleration and gas mileage are long gone.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 12:49 PM on April 17, 2021
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 12:49 PM on April 17, 2021
Autotrader, cars.com, and edmunds.com all have search functions where you can filter for all sorts of things, including distance from you, which can go nationwide.
it was three, four states over ($999 shipping).
I suspect that $999 is the shipping price from the dealer - there are "car transport" companies that would (probably) do it for a lot less. Although, fair warning, IME you have to sign up on a website to get a quote to find out how much it will cost for real and once you do you get put on a "hot lead" mailing list that gets sold to other transport companies and you will spend the next 2 weeks to 2 months getting constant emails about getting your car transported. So if you go that route maybe set up another email address to use for that.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2021
it was three, four states over ($999 shipping).
I suspect that $999 is the shipping price from the dealer - there are "car transport" companies that would (probably) do it for a lot less. Although, fair warning, IME you have to sign up on a website to get a quote to find out how much it will cost for real and once you do you get put on a "hot lead" mailing list that gets sold to other transport companies and you will spend the next 2 weeks to 2 months getting constant emails about getting your car transported. So if you go that route maybe set up another email address to use for that.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2021
FWIW, autotempest.com is a multi-search engine and searces most websites all at the same time for you.
posted by kschang at 2:00 PM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 2:00 PM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Continuous Variable Transmission -- infinite number of gears because it uses friction against two helical surfaces to creat continuous range of power transfer, instead of specific ratios as dictated by gears in normal transmissions.
posted by kschang at 4:31 PM on April 17, 2021
posted by kschang at 4:31 PM on April 17, 2021
Cvt - continuously variable transmission. Drives like an automatic, but there aren't actually gears, although sometimes they program it to fake them like it feels like it.
Like many transmissions there are good ones and bad ones. I'd do some research.
posted by TheAdamist at 4:32 PM on April 17, 2021
Like many transmissions there are good ones and bad ones. I'd do some research.
posted by TheAdamist at 4:32 PM on April 17, 2021
If I am not mistaken, any Hyundai/Kia compact or subcompact made before 2020 will have a six-speed auto transmission. They’re putting their first CVT in the new Elantra, I think I’ve read.
It is true CVT autos have had some reliability problems, for Nissan and Subaru in particular. And they are often numbingly dreadful to drive. But there’s no denying their greater fuel efficiency vs. manual or geared auto or DCT. It’s a maturing technology so they should get better.
Stick is just more fun to drive. If that matters to you. It doesn’t to many.
Honda, Mazda, and Toyota sell more manual transmission compacts and subcompacts than most, and Mazda at least still gives you a six speed old fashioned auto across the lineup.
My main point for OP is that your *stated* reasons for wanting a manual don’t add up to enough cause (and are arguably too anachronistic) to face a sharply reduced selection of used cars. The take rate on manual transmissions in the US is around 3%, and even then it’s concentrated on performance cars and off-road vehicles. If on the other hand rowing your own gears is part of the joy of driving and you can’t possibly go without it, be patient and search widely. But that didn’t sound like OP’s thinking.
posted by spitbull at 6:04 PM on April 17, 2021
It is true CVT autos have had some reliability problems, for Nissan and Subaru in particular. And they are often numbingly dreadful to drive. But there’s no denying their greater fuel efficiency vs. manual or geared auto or DCT. It’s a maturing technology so they should get better.
Stick is just more fun to drive. If that matters to you. It doesn’t to many.
Honda, Mazda, and Toyota sell more manual transmission compacts and subcompacts than most, and Mazda at least still gives you a six speed old fashioned auto across the lineup.
My main point for OP is that your *stated* reasons for wanting a manual don’t add up to enough cause (and are arguably too anachronistic) to face a sharply reduced selection of used cars. The take rate on manual transmissions in the US is around 3%, and even then it’s concentrated on performance cars and off-road vehicles. If on the other hand rowing your own gears is part of the joy of driving and you can’t possibly go without it, be patient and search widely. But that didn’t sound like OP’s thinking.
posted by spitbull at 6:04 PM on April 17, 2021
Yeah of course you CAN beat EPA estimates with a stick shift if you’re a skilled momentum driver and good at hypermiling. But you can do it with an automatic too. My 2014 Mazda with a six speed auto is EPA rated at 40mpg highway. If I hold it between 60 and 65, focus on never wasting momentum, use the fake manual shift to downshift rather than brake on downgrades and to hold higher gears on upgrades, accelerate very slowly and gradually, drift behind big trucks, and have mostly level terrain and a tailwind or no wind, mostly raised windows (modern AC systems are more efficient at highway speeds anyway), properly inflated tires, no no more than myself plus a hundred or so extra pounds of weight in the car, I can get 45mpg all day long. I’ve done it, over 1200 miles once, as hypermiling is a hobby of mine (so is driving really fast).
For most people the EPA test cycle is a reasonable relative number that allows you to compare different vehicles and different options (including which transmission type) accurately enough, but the vast majority of cars rarely ever attain their EPA average numbers. It’s the ratios that matter. And the fact is that these days an automatic transmission (whether conventional torque converter, CVT, or even DCT) can be programmed to give you better overall efficiency in normal driving than a human can normally achieve by manually shifting, or for that matter, for performance, giving you more acceleration speed than an average human can achieve by manually rowing the boat. This is a fact of engineering. If you can beat the MT number, you can beat the AT number too.
Don’t get me wrong. I love manual transmission vehicles, especially sports cars and big trucks. I have driven them for 40 years. They’re more fun to drive for me, and I almost always find driving at least fun, in anything. I’m a car nut. But the reality is that automatic transmissions have almost completely replaced manual ones in the American market on commodity cars, and the market reflects that. It’s much harder to FIND MT cars, new or used.
ATs have their own virtues. I drive in NYC and Boston a lot. I do not mind at all not having to clutch every ten seconds in stop and go traffic with my aging achey knees. If I want to use lower gears pragmatically my car has a “manual mode” gear selector on its AT, that I use a lot living on a mountainside. My AT truck has an overdrive switch that gives me lower gear ranges when off too. And low range 4x4 for even more extreme low gearing.
The old belief that MTs are more fuel efficient, like the myth that bigger older cars are safer, is widespread. It’s no longer true. It once was. And the days of ATs routinely failing at 50-75k are long gone. Some still do. So do some manual transmissions. The latter will be cheaper to replace, but will require more maintenance along the way. And that assumes you’re a *good* MT driver or do mostly highway miles. A bad driver can wear out a clutch in 50k miles too. So can heavy urban driving. Takes quite a few clutches to match the cost of replacing an AT, but MTs aren’t risk-free either.
Electric cars make all of this obsolete. They don’t even need a transmission. So this will be a historical argument soon.
posted by spitbull at 8:58 AM on April 19, 2021
For most people the EPA test cycle is a reasonable relative number that allows you to compare different vehicles and different options (including which transmission type) accurately enough, but the vast majority of cars rarely ever attain their EPA average numbers. It’s the ratios that matter. And the fact is that these days an automatic transmission (whether conventional torque converter, CVT, or even DCT) can be programmed to give you better overall efficiency in normal driving than a human can normally achieve by manually shifting, or for that matter, for performance, giving you more acceleration speed than an average human can achieve by manually rowing the boat. This is a fact of engineering. If you can beat the MT number, you can beat the AT number too.
Don’t get me wrong. I love manual transmission vehicles, especially sports cars and big trucks. I have driven them for 40 years. They’re more fun to drive for me, and I almost always find driving at least fun, in anything. I’m a car nut. But the reality is that automatic transmissions have almost completely replaced manual ones in the American market on commodity cars, and the market reflects that. It’s much harder to FIND MT cars, new or used.
ATs have their own virtues. I drive in NYC and Boston a lot. I do not mind at all not having to clutch every ten seconds in stop and go traffic with my aging achey knees. If I want to use lower gears pragmatically my car has a “manual mode” gear selector on its AT, that I use a lot living on a mountainside. My AT truck has an overdrive switch that gives me lower gear ranges when off too. And low range 4x4 for even more extreme low gearing.
The old belief that MTs are more fuel efficient, like the myth that bigger older cars are safer, is widespread. It’s no longer true. It once was. And the days of ATs routinely failing at 50-75k are long gone. Some still do. So do some manual transmissions. The latter will be cheaper to replace, but will require more maintenance along the way. And that assumes you’re a *good* MT driver or do mostly highway miles. A bad driver can wear out a clutch in 50k miles too. So can heavy urban driving. Takes quite a few clutches to match the cost of replacing an AT, but MTs aren’t risk-free either.
Electric cars make all of this obsolete. They don’t even need a transmission. So this will be a historical argument soon.
posted by spitbull at 8:58 AM on April 19, 2021
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posted by primethyme at 10:49 AM on April 17, 2021 [2 favorites]